Poison approved to control feral hogs

http://www.reporternews.com/story/money/...-hogs/98057838/

I can't imagine this won't impact other animals that get into it. Not sure this sounds like the best of ideas.

Bring it. 'Heard they were using this in Australia. I was told it's in a free choice container that only the strength of a pig's snout can lift. We'll see.

We used the BBT ta control the hogs, & deer # increased, 4 deer county when i left...

I'd be concerned with what effects it would have on animals that eat the dead pigs.....to include humans who shoot and consume a pig they didn't know was poisoned.....

Still, I can see something like this being extremely beneficial in the battle against feral hogs......

From Wikipedia......

Eating one that you didn't know was poisoned is concerning.

JMO but I'd rather see the scientists find a way to interrupt the breeding cycle of hogs. Not crazy about the idea of using poison on animals that other animals eat.

....and that people eat.....

Roger that.

If dyes are used as they do for rat poison (I don't know if all brands do this or not), then the fat in the body will change color to the color of the dye as with the blue fat pig seen here that apparently had eaten rodent poison.

http://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2015/09/10/photos-wild-pig-blue-fat-found-california/

That would be helpful.

I think maybe the biggest safety concern for humans is the consumption of warfarin hogs by humans already on meds like warfarin.

NOT GOOD !

Skip the blood thinner meds and eat a blue porkchop.

My concern is eating a hog that was medicated/poisoned.
So hope the blue fat is not something that happens after prolonged consumption, but after single dose.

Maybe hogs with heart problems will be cured.

Totally different product than what has been used in Australia.

Agree, find something that sterilizes them or otherwise stops or slows them from reproducing.

BIG X3

Here is an interesting article on the use of warfarin on hogs. It discusses the technique to use the poison and it's potential danger to other wildlife.

http://www.nola.com/outdoors/index.ssf/2017/02/wild_hog_poison_likely_coming.html

I sure hope this works out. It seems like collateral damage can be minimized if the folks applying the poison act responsibly and use it correctly. My concern is, there will be some hootleheads that don't really care what else it kills and will just haphazardly pour it on the ground.

I've been hog hunting here on the coast most of this last week. The hog population down here was out of hand before, this year it has been insane. We just can't kill enough of them. The damage they are doing to some prime coastal whitetail habitat is really heartbreaking. It has dramatically reduced the carrying capacity for not just deer, but all wildlife. As much as I enjoy hunting them, I'll be glad to see their numbers knocked WAY down.

Interesting Palehorse. You have to bait the trap for many weeks with non-lethal bait so as to acclimatize the hogs to the trap and to teach them how to use it and then change over to the poison bait and kill the educated hogs, then start the process anew when to kill other hogs. Interesting. Sounds like a lot of time an expense to get hogs to learn to use the feeder. Sounds like a lot of down time when the feeder isn't killing hogs.

I am not convinced by what is described that non-target species will be protected all that well. I would anticipate a lot of bird die offs to result, squirrels, raccoons, etc.

I have no idea why they'd choose to use warfarin. Sodium Nitrite would be a much better option, since it metabolizes very quickly, and most animals can't eat enough at a time to do them significant harm. Pigs are the exception...for some reason SN works extremely well on them, whereas Warfarin is dangerous to all animals. Pigs being, well...pigs, will inevitably knock bait out or the pig specific bait dispensers, making it fair game for other nontarget animals. I'd sure like to hear their reasoning behind approving such an indiscriminate toxin such as warfarin. Especially in light of recent legislation concerning proposed restrictions on both otc and restricted use rodenticides, in addition to the well established FIFRA legislation already in effect.

PS: The colored dyes in rodent baits do not change the color of their tissues. It's simply a colored parrafin wax that passes through their system.

If you're going to acclimate the pigs to the bait site why not just use sodium cyanide that's used for predator control....seems to me if your are going to replace bait with poison why not go with something that really hammers them....should make recovery and disposal easier too....

Any form of cyanide, which is a heavy metal, is accumulative in the tissues, especially the liver and kidneys. It's a highly systemic toxin, which cannot be metabolized by the body. If a bobcat eats a dog that ate a cat that ate a rat that ate cyanide...everyone involved in that food chain is likely to be affected. If a pig eats a non-lethal dose and then gets shot by a hunter, anyone that partakes of that meat could conceivably ingest some.

This is just so crazy. Both the bait and poison delivery system are markedly flawed.

Why Warfarin has been chosen instead of Sodium Nitrite is beyond me. Plus the delivery system (they've been testing and have had doubts about for years) just isn't going to work and folks are going to start pouring the stuff right out on the ground.

This is a prime example of how if you get enough people together (wanting to make profit) you can (eventually) get any ridiculous product out on the market.

Everything about this effort is destined to fail....except the money making.

I agree that some 'method' (that can be applied on a large scale) is needed if we ever hope to trim back the hog population, but THIS isn't it.

It also raises another question...
What state licensing will this product fall under? Commercial, non-commercial, private...or all of them? Relatively few farmers are licensed for herbicide application, and even fewer are licensed for pesticide/rodenticide application. I can only imagine what the bait and dispensers will cost, not only to buy, but to maintain. They'll also need to be checked several times a week to make sure no product has been spilled or knocked out into the open area beyond the protection of the dispenser, thereby making it accessible to non-target animals.
I'd also like to know how the state will react to the death of game animals due to the use of this product, or any animal besides pigs. Will Farmer Brown be fined and/or imprisoned if he accidentally kills a deer or his neighbors dog with this stuff? You can't expect people to put a toxin in the woods, and then not expect collateral damage as a result. Just the rodenticides we use for rats and mice are enough to kill a dog or a small kid, so any amount in doses large enough to kill an adult pig will play havoc with just about anything in the state...including calves, foals, and fawns.

Just sounds like another one of those..."Hi, I'm from the government and I'm here to help...." scenarios...

Getting the hogs to keep coming back to a feeder is needed for this to work.
I see shooting them much faster. Issue is sustained pressure.
But with not knowing who has hog problems and getting access to property.
Oklahoma had a online data base of information on reported hog problems
but it didn't seem to be used much.
Something along those lines would put shooters in touch with landowners that need them.
As well as provide a method of feedback on shooters success.

Articles about, knowledge of the poison ingredient, and persons learning how warfarin works on hogs, is only going to lead to persons using easily available warfarin based poisons labeled for rodent control in attempt to control hogs. The haphazard baiting that will come with the illegal off label use has great potential to create a lot of problems with off target animals wild, pet, and domestic. And us when we eat a warfarin rodenticide baited hog or sell it to a feral hog buyer headed to a foreign market. IMHO, ripe with potential problems in many ways.

Yep, will the USDA not longer accept feral hogs at buying stations? What testing will be in place to assure hogs being bought at those stations are not laced with warfarin? Ideally, since they are supposed to be using the blue dye, the fat will turn blue, so that the normal hunter should not be ingesting feral hog meat with any significant amount of warfarin in it. Blued means Screwed.

Texas Hog Hunters Association started a petition to get it stopped...

https://www.change.org/p/texas-hog-hunte..._src-custom_msg

I guess free trapping will come to a halt since hogs cannot be sold.
Professional hog doggin may be impacted as well.

Signed. I will also be contacting my representatives tomorrow to voice my displeasure.

Fact is, i'd be more than happy to shoot more hogs to help control the population. The problem is finding the landowners that will let me do so without charging a fortune for a day hunt.

I have a freezer full of wild hog and will be sad when I can no longer eat them without fear of accidentally consuming one that has been poisoned.

I understand y'all's concerns, and they are valid. If I had been asked to sign that petition a short time ago, I would have signed it.

My problem is, I have seen in the course of about 2 years, my favorite hunting areas down here on the coast, absolutely devastated. I promise you I am not exaggerating. Deer and squirrel were once plentiful, are now on a rapid decline. Snakes, lizards, frogs, ect are all taking a hit. Even the oak trees are unable to reproduce because the hogs are eating every acorn that hits the ground.

I'm writing this while digesting some excellent jagershnitzel from a young sow I shot the day before yesterday.

Hunting, even with dogs, is not working. Trapping year round is not working. Even helicopter hunting doesn't work very well here because the woods are too thick.

Hopefully the state will implement this in a responsible manner, perhaps requiring licenced pros to apply or oversee the application of this to minimize collateral damage to native wildlife.

Palehorse you must be very naive to believe that implementation would be in "a responsible manner". There are more fools and morons than responsible people.

I didn't say I believe, I said I hope. Can't say you're wrong about fools and morons though.

They can mess it all up for the rest of us every time.

So they put out the poison, the hogs eat it, the hog don't feel so good and go into a thicket and die.
Who is going to drag out all the rotting carcasses and dispose of them.
If your neighbor is poisoning, and the dead ones are on your property, who is responsible for clean up? Are you going to let someone who makes bad decisions, such as indiscriminate poisoning, onto your property?

M

Agreed. I also believe this a private property issue. If a landowner has a feral hog problem, it is incumbent on him to solve the problem. Sitting around waiting for the government to fix a problem is one reason our nation is in the shape it's in.

The money trail on this definitely needs to be followed & may explain allot. When the government gets involved unintended consequences are often overlooked. This seems to be a little knee jerk reaction & agree this is a private property issue.

I like it. And would use it if is more effective then trapping. Amount that is absorded into muscle seems minute, especially when compared to what it would take to OD a human.

Only objection I see to it is if you have to use a special application to feed it you might as well use large drop trap.

Anyone want to talk to a reporter from KXAN in Austin on this topic? I emailed them and they are looking for someone with some expertise in this field.

Update, they want to do a story on this tonight and want to speak with a concerned hunter. Anyone want to do this?

Not me. Not only am I not an expert, I have a face for radio.

PM Dragunov. He fits both.

Sent him a PM.

Bobo, you don't just have to use a special application trap, but you have to train the hogs on how to use the trap. This takes 2-3 weeks and you bait it with unpoisoned bait from the company that makes the poison. Then you have to bait the special trap with the poison and the hogs need to return for several consecutive days in order to get a lethal dose. Of course, once you kill those hogs, you have to start the training process again with the next hogs because you already killed the ones that knew how to operate the trap.

So basically, you are looking at 1 month time, using unpoisoned bait to train the hogs and then poisoned bait to kill the hogs and if the hogs run off in the middle of the process, then you have to start over with the next set of new hogs. No doubt the traps will have to be maintained properly so that they do not stick or jam open whereby you end up poisoning whatever other animals show up.

Danger to humans may not be so minimal, particularly if you are already on blood thinners like Warfarin.

Sounds really effective, not to mention uncomplicated and inexpensive. You just need to buy special traps, special bait, special poison free bait, run game cameras to monitor the process of education for timing the bait change, and you are good to go. Oh, and if you have a big property, you will need multiples of traps.

You will also have to be licensed to use it. You will not be able to just run to tractor supply and buy it. Also considering what a bucket of rat blox cost at tractor supply, a 50lb bag of kaput hog poison is going to be expensive even for someone with a state applicator's license. Many of us on here know too a 50lb bag of poison is not going to go very far. Then there is the cost of the feeders and the kaput branded non poisoned bait that is likely going to be required to be used by the person applying the poison.

I looked up the Kaput Hog poison usda application and the same company's Rat Poison MSDS. They are pretty much the same poison in different strengths. Hog Poison has .005% warfarin and the Rat Poison has .025% warfarin.

This stuff will be deadly for anything that eats what the hogs and raccoons spill out of those feeders and anything that eats those smaller poisoned animals. Provided the poison is even applied as directed.

This is just a very bad idea. No poison.

There are many problems with putting reproductive hormones in bait that would potentially inhibit reporoduxtion. First off, the hogs would have to stay home and eat the material all the time, otherwise, as in humans, once you stop eating the pill you become fertile again. How many of us know that experience first hand?

Second, such bait would invariably end up in the water supply and humans and other animals could become involved. Would really stink to find that a. Much of doe in the homeland got temporarily sterilized and a whole crop of fawns was missing due to this type of poison.

In my mind, any type of poison or other hormonal control is going to be fraught with many unpredictable results, probably none of which would limit or decrease hog population. Very rarely do any of these govt interventions work out for the better...

KXAN in Austin is doing a segment on this in 5 mins for anyone in the Austin area.

This won't be a government program, but rather is a tool for landowners who have a bad enough hog problem that they will be willing to pay for a licensed professional to thin down the hog population on their land.

For those who think hogs can be eliminated by shooting them...

Feral hogs can be shot out of a small area where they can't come back in to repopulate the area.....for example an island in the Pacific Ocean like Santa Cruz.

The National Park Service and the Nature Conservancy, which co-own the island, contracted with Prohunt, Inc. out of New Zealand to remove feral hogs from the 96 square mile island. The state of Texas is 2,798 times that size.

Prohunt cross fenced the island to restrict the hogs' movement, used extensive trapping, baiting, ground hunting with teams of dogs, infrared sensing devices and radio trackers, and their most effective method, shooting them from helicopters.

It took over two years to remove the 5,036 hogs at a cost of $5 million, or $988 per pig.

Palehorse, I can understand the problem with feral hogs but do you allow people to come hunt them with you? I have no idea, maybe you do.

I just don't see how a landowner can complain about their hog problem and then say they either won't allow hunting or especially want to charge for it. Seems to me Mr. Landowner, your hog problem isn't as big as you make it to be.

Again, I am not insinuating this about you Palehorse as I don't know you so please don't take offense.

No offense taken. I invite folks year around to hunt hogs on my place, no charge. It's only 52 acres but it is very close to the Justin Hurst WMA. The hogs just move to the WMA as soon as there is any hunting pressure. They may shoot a couple of hogs and then get frustrated and give up the second or third day because the hogs are gone. Then the hogs come right back.

It's sort of like living in a roach infested apartment building. You can try to control them in your apartment, but if the rest of the building is infested, you'll never get them under control.

Here is the story KXAN ran last night.

http://kxan.com/2017/02/20/hunters-worried-about-state-plan-to-control-hogs-with-pesticide/

I can see both sides of the argument on this.

In defense of the landowner, if you want your land for raising something besides hogs and are not looking to become a hog guiding place, then I can see how poisoning them is a good option. It keeps random folks from hunting your land (whom maybe don't clean up their trash, act like idiots, disrespect guidelines you give them, etc.), while continuously putting pressure on the hog population. Unlike a hunter who may head home if he doesn't see anything and possibly never come back since he was unsuccessful, the poison is out there, rain or shine, controlling the hog population.

In defense of the hunter, it can be hard to find a place to hunt in Texas. The state is very heavily privately owned and many hunters, myself included, pay to hunt on people's properties because they do not have access to private land. So, when you tell them that something they want to shoot is not being made available to them, it's a bit infuriating. Additionally, there is the concern about the poison itself. What happens if a hog wonders from a poisoned ranch onto a ranch that folks actively hunt. What if other animals get a hold of the poison or eat the dead poisoned hogs?

Now, just speaking for myself, as someone who loves to hunt, has not shot hundreds of animals like some here have, and likes to eat game meat, I would love for the chance to come out and shoot as many hogs as I could find on someones property who does not want them. It also makes me very concerned for future hog hunts as I like to eat game meat - how do I know the hogs on the property I shot are pesticide free?!

Anyway, that's my rant. If you happen to be a rancher who has an out of control hog population and are considering poisoning your hogs. Would love the chance to shoot some before you poison them - I'll even pay you $10 per hog I shoot! PM Me.

Last year, a guy I work with wanted to come hunt hogs out at my place. I said, "Sure, just leave the place like you found it" and I gave him the combination to the gate. He went in with his heavy diesel 4x4, drove all over the place getting stuck twice. He then called another guy to come help him get unstuck. He spread corn all over and area and just sat one day waiting for the hogs to show. They did not show until he left. They rooted up the area even worse than before. Between the two 4x4's rutting up the place, and the huge sounder of hogs that showed up to eat all the corn, my place looked worse than ever.

I still allow folks to hunt, but now no one goes out there unless escorted by myself or one of my sons. I also don't allow baiting for fear of attracting more than get shot. I have learned the hard way, just allowing access will not make even a small dent in the population, and may make the situation worse.

Similar issue here in SouthTex. If I hit a sounder, I wouldn't see them back for a few days. But each time I would see them 8-10 were missing until no more piggies. Then years of no more piggies for me So hunting a small area will be hit or miss and unless it's close too hard to keep sustained pressure up.

Federal WMA is safe haven for the hogs, so they cannot be eradicated in the area. I gave up on getting a night permit to shoot them within the WMA.
As long as Feds and landowners allow hogs a place to reproduce they will. Getting rid of them or controlling the numbers is not a problem I have, as they can be shot way faster then they can reproduce. A sounder of 30 can be wiped out in a week and it takes years for a couple to get back to that number. I could have finished them off in a few days but did not have access to the property they ran off to so I have to wait for them to come back. Getting access to the areas they are at is the problem. When they run off they go somewhere, they don't keep running. Difference is if you can go after them you can keep up the pressure. I have tracked them back to the WMA 6 miles away in one area, and private land I do not have access to in another area. There are 10's of thousands of acres of crops with no hog activity in my area Hidalgo, Cameron, and Willacy counties. So the hogs are coming to get you is not everywhere crops are planted.

The poisoning situation is just a result of inability to solve the problem with the tools at hand for those with a hog problem costing them $$$$. So if someone can make some $$$$ off the situation of farmers/ranchers losing $$$$ solutions will be offered. Look at the I have a hog problem for x amount of $$$ you can help me get rid of them . Usually the big $$$$ wins out cuz we have the best Politicians money can buy, and they are bought all the time.


Not a hog problem as was said by others years back, it's a people problem. The farmers that I have helped out have asked me if I needed any $$$ for getting rid of the hogs cuz the equipment involved is expensive, and the big difference it made in the amount of hogs shot per night. I have not accepted 1 cent but have not paid to hunt either and 1000's of lbs of hog meat later I am out of hogs. Except for the stragglers that wonder off the protected areas. I have not seen any requests for shooters due to hog problems, except Monty a few years back requested a few shooters for some stubborn hogs the dogs were after, lucky for me I was headed back home from OK and met up with him and added the backstraps to my hog meat already in the cooler from a hunt on the W T Waggoner ranch a few days before. Maybe Texas Agri Life extension could host a web page to put farmers with hog problems with shooters and a rating system so the disrespectful turds will be flushed out of the shooters pool. Nothing worse then finding your property in worse shape after doing someone a favor. I have no problem loading up the camper and heading out for an extended weekend to help someone get rid of large sounders hogs, and I do have a f350 diesel 4x4 but won't tear up your roads or leave any trash behind only footprints and carcasses for the yotes (don't bait the area as it will bring more hogs).

So who is right...

The Texas Department of Agriculture reports that extensive testing of warfarin has been conducted in Texas in partnership with Scimetrics Ltd. Corp. since 2008 with the approval of warfarin as a safe control for feral hogs .

Warfarin is reported to be a logical choice for hog toxicant, because it is effective in swine but requires much higher dosage levels to potentially affect other wildlife populations or livestock.

The Texas A&M Agrilife Extension Service is supportive of the rule change and the use of warfarin for feral hog population control.

Hope this stupid idea gets stopped. Amazing what some under the table kickbacks & political cronyism will get you. I enjoy hunting & eating hogs & don't want sick & poisoned pigs coming onto my property.

Exactly, Flint...

I would add that the Texas Ag Commissioner used a lot of old, tired data in his news conference yesterday. He reported $800 million in damage yearly across the nation. Well, that number comes from an "estimate" made by a veterinarian from Cornell University in 2005. The Ag commissioner also used the number of 52 million in damage a year in Texas. Well, that number comes from an estimate by Dr. Lynn back in 2008. It is next to impossible to get the data on the methodology that these estimates were based on.

But lets just say this, it tells me they have no new real research to tell them what the real numbers are or they wouldn't be using estimates that are in some cases over a decade old. Before you go putting out feeders containing a strong poison, I would hope you would at least do some real research to determine just what the amount of damage really is and if it is localized or widespread. Louisiana has said they have areas that have actually plateaued and some that have dropped in population, speculating that maybe they have reached the carrying capacity in some areas.

I could go on and on, but before we go buying what "he said" or "they said", we need to stop and take a harder look. The real data behind decisions needs to be made public and there needs to be discussion. I could speculate as to what I think is driving this, but I'm more in to facts.

Maybe this has been covered already, farmer Jones puts poison out on his place. Hog eats it and crosses over to where I hunt. I shoot the hog and and process it? What happens now?

Here is a pdf link about it and how to use it...
https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/ppls/072500-00026-20170103.pdf

One thing the PDF really does show is how labor intensive use of Kaput will be. This alone may be the reason for the downfall of using this bait. Aside from the particular conditions in which the traps are supposed to be set up and the hogs have to be trained to use the traps, check out this last section...



I can't imagine anybody staying with this program for very long. How many farmers do you think that are going to bury dozens or hundreds of hogs? How many are going to drive around their properties, looking for dead carcasses to protect nature from ingesting them and getting poisoned. You can bet that folks will not be reporting their by-kills. This has Charlie Foxtrot written all over it.

This is from the link that Rexmitchel posted earlier.

"The state agriculture spokesman tells KXAN that the hog’s fatty tissues are dyed blue from the bait so anyone hunting the hogs would know it had ingested that much warfarin. He says if the meat were ingested, a person would have to eat two pounds of wild hog liver to ingest as much warfarin as the low-end of a normal daily dose for a person that’s on warfarin for blood clot prevention"

This has complete disaster written all over it. I'm pretty sure this is double the dose of Warafin (5%) as opposed to what is in rat bait (2.5%).

I have seen numerous barn cats and dogs killed (or made extremely sick) with the dosage in rat bait. I don't believe for one second that double the doseage rate will have little to no toxicity to non-target species.

Fact is people are stupid - I'd bet a lot of people get perturbed with the labor intensive prescribed application process and will go straight to dumping this crap on the ground. Ain't going to end well.

SURVEILLANCE AND FOLLOW-UP:
Dead hogs may begin to appear in or near the treatment areas within 4 to 7
days after bait placement. Applicators must return to the treatment site within 4 days after the first bait placements
were made, and at 2- to 4-day intervals thereafter, to inspect the site for evidence of dead or dying feral hogs and/or
dead nontarget animals. All carcasses found must be disposed of properly. Carcasses may be buried on site in
holes dug deeply enough that the entire carcass is at least 18 inches below the ground surface. Cover buried
carcasses up to the level of the surrounding ground. If burial is not practical (e.g., due to frozen or extremely hard
ground) and other disposal methods are allowed by State and local authorities, carcasses may be disposed of by
other methods to ensure that carcasses are not accessible to scavengers. Continue to monitor the treatment area to
collect and dispose of feral hogs and to search for non-target animals for at least two weeks after the removal of all
bait from the hog feeders. Deaths of any animals other than feral hogs that appear to be the result of baiting with this
product must be reported to State authorities.

How far may those dying hogs travel in 4 to 7 days? Who will be responsible to dispose of dead hogs? The person that poisoned them or or the land owner that finds them dead? I can see a whole lot of wrong going on here. One person poisons then leaving someone else to clean up the mess.

Poisoning is nothing like a new discovery. It has been done for many, many years with varying degrees of success and failure so we shall see how well this works and if there are any undesired effects. At the end of the day I am all for anything that kills feral hogs. They are a vile, destructive pestilence and they must be destroyed. I hate them. They need to go and if there are a few unwanted consequences so be it. I am certain these consequences have been anticipated.

Here is a big problem with hogs. Some people like them, they are never going to go away. If they do someone will release more because they like them.

My backyard on my 1.5 acre lot looks like a drunk guy chased some rabbits on a trencher last night and the last time we were at the ranch we got a tractor stuck in some hog rooting it was so deep. I don't particularly like this solution though.

Australia has a sodium nitrite based poison that one can still eat the meat and kills a hog in 1-2 hours, seems using Warfarin poses many problems. i just read a article from australia stating eating a hog that had a lethal dose of sodium nitrite one would still be consuming a dosage way under one would get from getting meats and plants in a typical grocerie store. Seems very interesting. If all this is true why the hell use Warfarin, besides the pharmacutical companies putting their hands in someones pockets.

Understand totally, but, what about those of us that eat the hogs? Is this just an "unwanted consequences" to us meat eaters, a bad decision or something more? I am ok with poisoning them but whoever does this best keep them on their property until they expire. They should not put the burden on someone else in case something or someone that may consume the poisoned animal gets sick or worse. I don't think this is any different than having responsibility your projectile crossing a fence line. If you poison and it causes an issue somewhere else, you are responsible for the consequences. I believe you can do what you want on your property until it effects someone else outside of your property.

State registered use meams licensed applicators only can get it. Blue dye would show up quickly and liver would clue you in that its bad to eat. It wont be widely used enough to affect hardly any hunting.

Only licensed applicators can get it and use it. Secondly your percentages are off. Its .005%. Most rat baits are se percentage of a different active ingredient as many rats have developed resistence to warfarin so bromethalin and bromadialone are much much more common.

I figure as Flintknapper stated below....the testing company and provider are sister companies.....figure they have someone in their pocket pushing this thru.....follow the money.....



Call me a skeptic...but when the government shows up and says "I'm here to help" I start to worry.......

Contacted my rep today. We'll see what they come up with.

The hog eaters may just have to forego the eating of hogs for fear of poisoning after this starts happening. I see that as a worthy sacrifice to kill more of these hogs because the bigger problem is this invasive species destroying agriculture, property, and habitat. Looks like the studies show that the dosages that would be in the hogs would be non-harmful to humans but I would not stake my health on it.

I can see the neighborly thing to do would be to go get your poisoned hog from the neighbor (if you can even tell whether it is a hog you poisoned or not) if it really ends up presenting that big of a problem but I do not see the state enforcing a law like they do with a projectile crossing a property line.

This just means that the testing results cannot be considered credible because the testing company is directly tied to the manufacturer. It doesn't mean that the result are necessarily invalid (or valid), only that they cannot be trusted because they were not done by an independent company. If the claim is made that the warfarin is now being allowed to be used because "they have somebody in their pocket" then it is just as validly argued that such measures haven't been made legal yet because the hunting industry has had people in their pocket all these years. Right? There is just as much evidence to support this, huh? Or maybe we are just okay with things when they are in our favor? It is only a foul if the other side does it?

Come on, casting dispersions really without the facts to back up the claims is just logic fallacy. That we don't like the idea doesn't mean anything illegal has happened here.

Now, if you have followed the money and have some actual proof, let's hear it.

From thinking about it, I don't think using warfarin would be harmful to people.

You have to think that the drug first is ingested by an animal. The drug is then distributed in their tissues based on the lipid solubility. You are going to cook the meat first, which will destroy much of the drug. I think their estimates of 2lbs a day is probably not unrealistic. Granted, I've seen people on doses as low as 3 mg a week plus supplemental vitamin K, to as high as over a hundred mg a week. Add on top of that most people aren't going to be eating poisoned hog routinely, and only the ones that would be in realistic danger are people who have an underlying vitamin K problem or are already on warfarin, who should be getting their INR/PT checked anyways.

If you then suppose that the hogs that are able to travel and survive to get hunted on some other place probably have ingested lower amounts to not die from the coagulopathy, the risk to hunters gets lower. Also consider that warfarin is very cheap, and your financial incentive to mislead is less.

At the very least....it creates a situation whereby those consuming hogs would need to carefully 'check' each animal.

The risk of suffering an actual health issue from the handling or consumption of an animal IS probably small. A more likely scenario is someone will kill a hog with the intention of utilizing it only to find out...it is not viable (poisoned). An inconvenience at best. A loss of time, effort and money at worst.




Not possible with free ranging hogs on smaller properties (which is most of Texas). The nature of hogs to utilize a 'home range' of certain size and/or the attractiveness of a piece of property will likely dictate how far they would travel. Where I live most properties are 1K acres or less. We swap/share hogs with our neighbors regularly.




While I agree with the premise, State Law and Case Law does not currently support your position.

Unfortunately, Feral Hogs have been reclassified as 'Exotic Livestock'. Meaning they belong to whomever owns the property (and under which there is presumed control of the animals). This is the State's way of absolving itself of any responsibility for them. So...the hogs I own today, are YOURS tomorrow if they cross onto your property, irrespective their condition.

Until a case is successfully tried in court (Damages), there is no precedent set for 'damages' caused by sick/poisoned animals.

It is to be EXPECTED that some sick/dying hogs (possibly other animals) WILL travel off of the property where they were poisoned. Personally, I'd prefer not to find rotting hogs in my stock ponds, creeks and watersheds. I don't have time to survey/check my entire property each week in search of decaying carcasses.

I am fortunate in that Coyotes and Buzzards find (and clean up) most hogs. They find ALL of the ones that I place in select areas (bone yard). But I can imagine a sickly hog going to a cool spot in the creek (where it is thick with brush) and expiring there. If left to rot, it might create an unwanted situation with surface water or run off.

But this doesn't require condemnation based on my hypothetical's, the system has plenty of 'faults' all on its own.

It's just NOT the answer...on many levels.

Hopefully it'll show up in the fat. Because I never gut hogs, I never see the liver. I just take the leg quarters and backstraps.

I can see your point but unless people are told how would we know who is poisoning where? Would this be county by county or something else? I guess there would have to be a ban on eating wild hog state wide till we were notified differently.

I was about to post this. So I'll just bump it.

This poisoning idea sucks.

I don't realty see too much additional regulation outside of the applicators license.

I don't see any consumption ban on wild hog as they have stated it should be safe. I am speaking from a common sense perspective for not eating them. I don't eat the nasty bastards anyway so it really makes no difference to me but I know a lot of people do eat them so the concern is legit.

I don't see any way to know where exactly poisoning will take place but I can, however, see some sort of additional regulation to maybe place signage (probably to come along with the applicators license) around properties/locations where poisoning is occurring. Notifying your neighbors would just be the courteous thing to do.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/anim...its-not-pretty/

Thanks Mickey. I added this to my collection which is growing by the day.

From the link 2 posts back....

... As for the hunters’ objections, Miller said a blue dye will make poisoned hogs obvious long before they reach the oven...


Does anybody remember a story about a California pig that was blue color after being skinned? It is all connected now.

Below is my exchange with Sid Miller. Such an ill-conceived idea.

*********************

Thank you for your response. I beg to differ on all three of your points. I am happy to send you published scientific references on all of these points if you so wish. Further, you failed to address my additional points of economic impact, the reduction of feral hogs by hunters that will now not be present for fear of poisoned meat, and the poisoning of other animals.

1) You cite the concentration of warfarin within the product. However, it is not the concentration that is the relevant metric. Rather it is the total accumulation warfarin -- a poison that is quite stable. I dare say that a hog will eat much more than a rodent. You'd be fine drinking a tablespoon of ocean water, but not several gallons -- although the concentration is the same, it is the total amount that is of concern rather than the percent warfarin in the product.

2) Firstly, warfarin poisoning of feral pigs is prohibited in some sates in Australia. Secondly, when evaluating the Australian poison program for feral pigs, Massei et al. (2011) strongly recommended immediate bans on feral hog meat consumption following the poison baiting. Thirdly, Australian studies have also noted large numbers of other animals consuming and being poisoned by feral pig bait, including foxes, kangaroos, wallabies, and birds. Lapidge and Eason (2010) and Cowled et al. (2008) report poisoning of 28 marsupial species, 4 reptile species and 2 bird species.

3) If you've eaten feral hogs, you will have noticed that the muscle is lean but also somewhat marbled with lipid-dense tissue (that is, fat). Indeed, all vertebrates have fat in their skeletal muscles. You cannot eat muscle without eating some fat. In addition, the fat turns blue after a period of time following ingestion. If a feral hog had recently eaten warfarin and it was circulating in the blood system (that is how it gets into the fat tissues), then the hunter would not see the blue color even though warfarin is present in the animal.

Mr. Miller, I understand the issue of feral hogs and I've seen the incredible damage that they cause. I'm also aware of the pathogens that they can carry. I've shot and eaten dozens of feral hogs in Texas. Isn't there any way of promoting feral hog hunting instead of using poison? There are hundreds of thousands of hunters in the upper Midwest who would love to hunt feral hogs in Texas and consume the meat. But, living out of state, it's hard to figure out where these opportunities are in Texas. Publish the contact information for Texas farmers who want feral hogs hunted on their property. Have public land experts show hunters where they can hunt feral hogs. I'll personally go down to Texas and spend a month shooting as many feral hogs as I can.

Sincerely,
Steve


*************************


Your concerns are unfounded. Rat and mice warfarin is .025 active ingredient. Kuput bait is .005. No other animal or bird will be effected. This product
has been in use in Australia for years ,no problems. It turns the hog blue on the fat inside. Warfarin does not enter the muscle only the fat and liver. Hope this helps

Sid Miller
Texas Agriculture Commisioner


***********************************

To: Commissioner Miller

I am a professional biologist and hunter. The idea to use warfarin-containing bait to control feral hogs is absolutely poorly-conceived. This will

1) impact non-intended species such as birds of prey and pet dogs. Will you be delivering high-dose vitamin K for these animals to remediate the effects of warfarin?

2) reduce existing hunting pressure on the feral hog population as meat hunters will be reluctant to continue their activities.

3) reduce the economic activity surrounding feral hog hunting in Texas. I, for example, will discontinue my trips to Texas to hunt feral hogs for meat in which I spend thousands of dollars in the Texas economy. My trips will be to other states until your policy is changed.

and 4) you may kill people with uncontrollable bleeds who have ingested contaminated meat. Many people have genetic variants or vitamin K deficient diets that make them highly sensitive to small quantities of warfarin.

Please do not poison feral hogs in Texas.

It has been completely banned....for a long time.

Wow, his reply reads like something from someone that didn't graduate from high school. Unfortunately, I think we are fighting a losing battle here...

Maybe I missed it, but just because the dye doesn't show up in the meat doesn't mean that the Warfarin doesn't.

You know, for a lot of us, ingesting a little Warfarin meat might not do us much harm. For anybody on Warfarin, they likely know the problems with getting a balanced prescription that is both helping their blood situation without turning them into an effective hemophiliac. My father still has issues with this from time to time even after being on the Warfarin program for several years.

Huh?

Dear Mr. Miller,

Warfarin (or any other Toxin when ingested) can only 'travel' via the bloodstream or lymph systems.

Does the bloodstream not supply ALL tissues and organs?

I understand the toxin might concentrate in the liver (which slows and metabolizes toxins) and fat cells which readily store toxins. But only the misinformed or willfully ignorant...would think the toxin is not also in the muscle tissues.

To what degree....is the only question.

No one is more supportive of finding new means to reduce the Feral Hog population than I. But I don't think THIS is the answer. Both the bait and delivery system have serious flaws.

They want you to think that. Don't. There is a lot going on in the background.

X2

I just want to offer something here. I see a lot of bantering here about whether the meat will affect humans. That is fine...and I believe a legit concern. There are also concerns about an entire industry built around this. Hunters, trappers, hog doggers, helicopter hunters, landowners that make a living off hunts, outfitters, the meat buyers, the hunting accessory business, night vision retailers, night vision manufacturers and on and on... It is huge business in Texas that Commissioner Miller says this policy isn't for...something he is actually right about.

There is another concern that will take you farther than than whether the meat affects humans or causes collateral damage. Say what you will about hogs, love them or hate them, but the biggest hot key item that will bring support is the fact that it is such a downright inhumane way to do this. It is THE key reason that Australia started phasing it out in 2009 and subsequently banned it altogether. I have seen research that has shown hogs die from 1 - 31 days, but generally withing about a week. It is a slow agonizing, painful death. I believe this point will get us further than anything else. I know some folks want them all dead and that is fine, you can have your opinion. But the vast majority of us are here because we enjoy hunting them in whatever manner you choose. Anyway, shoot the messenger if you want, but I think this has not been considered enough.

Nobody cares about the slow agonizing death that the same poison gives rats and mice so why should they care about a hog? They are both vermin as far as I am concerned. It is an issue of visibility, oh, and most everyone has disliked mice and rats as a pest for millennia so who caaaares about a bunch of rats, right? An eradication campaign can have no qualms over the humanity of its methods.

Many, many, many more people want the feral hogs gone than all the hunters combined and their voices are far louder and stronger. Especially the voices from the agricultural industry. All the industry that has formed around hog hunting can die for all they care, and for all I care at that, because it was founded around a destructive invasive pest anyhow. And like I said earlier, just stop eating them if you get scared of the warfarin, easy as that.

Anyone have an idea of the cost of said poison? If it is costly there may be a lot of ranchers forgo this process.

I would rather them to have come up with a sterilization feed that would sterilize the boars for X amount of time. This could be used to control the herds done effectively.

I understand that a lot of folks like to hunt them. I get it, I do too. But most of the folks that hunt them are not the ones that have to deal with the reprocussions of an out of control hog population.

GETUM bye bye piggys

I don't know if poison is the answer but as a farmer, rancher and hunter I want every feral pig in Texas dead today. There will be plenty of animals to hunt with all the pigs gone. They are a non native invasive species and they need to be eradicated.

I'm all for killing as many as possible. I'm not for the potential downstream effects of a poison program.

Poisoning them WILL NOT get rid of them. IMO it will make the problem worse because all the hunters that shoot and eat them like myself will then stop shooting them and trapping them and there's no way your gonna poison them out of existence. Period

And to even buy into that it will is in of itself a little on the retarded side.

From the article that Micky Moose posted earlier.

"The poison was effective, granted. It proved as apocalyptic as Miller promises, taking just a few months to wipe out an estimated 99 percent of wild pigs in Sunny Corner State Forest during an experiment in 1987."

Don't need to poison them out of existence. Just knock them back...way back.

hi hip hooray i am all for it they have tore up my places for the last time, NOW i get to do all legal like.....once we got them cut back we saw way more deer this year it was like a new place..

Bring on the Poison, about time we got an effective way to control these pest. I hate hogs and all the damage they do. Between myself and other neighbors we will be poisoning on over 5000 acres. Let the bodies hit the ground.

Exactly. You're method of cooking pigs is something I'm gonna try. And it wouldn't show "blue fat".

Sid Miller got paid for that policy. The people of Texas should make sure he serves only one term. Only an idiot or someone on the take would think poisoning a food source is a good idea.

Fwiw I lose thousands of dollars each year to hogs. But I'm not so ignorant that I think it's wise to poison them.

I guess Hog hunting is going HF preferred..........

They should force public disclosure of bait sites, amounts used, dates administered etc. At least give folks in the area a heads up so they don't feed their family hogs that were poisoned.

In all of the arguments about pigs one thing really chaps my arse. So much groaning about crop and other damage by hogs. The damage done by whitetail deer in this country is far greater.

Here is one of the better news articles I've read on the subject.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.houstonch...gs-10959611.php

That is a fairly well written and researched article. I didn't see that it mentioned that Australia had banned Warfarin.

I don't know the answer to this problem but it seems to me between farmers wanting them gone, hunters willing to shoot them and poor people in need of a cheap source of meat... there has to be a better solution than using poison. This method is very labor intensive and it only kills a few hogs before you have to start the process all over again. This is not a solution for the problem.

I'm gonna let others be the guinea pigs. If it works well with little/no effects on other animals, I will poison them hopefully into oblivion.

I have not read every thread on here but I can tell you this.

the amount that another animal would have to ingest is huge, grown cow/800#.

this is going to be a bait, same as us using corn with jello added, there will not be enough in one feeder to kill a calf much less a full grown cow. the warfarin is mixed with the attractant and baited out.

from what I have gleaned on this it will be safe enough and I seriously doubt the state after yrs of study would knowingly put out ddt jr.


the warfarin is supposed to metabolize fast and be gone within a day or so (forget the actual amount of time but it was fast) so secondary kills are very unlikely.


we will see I guess.

Oh yeah? Then why are all livestock to be removed until 90 days AFTER the poison bait has been removed?

http://24mg21e5i362midy831oauj8.wpengine...-25lb-label.pdf

read this, from australia and done by the jounal of wildlife mngmnt. notice the last paragraph and what it says about


http://www.jstor.org/stable/3809054?origin=crossref&seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

it says if applied in grazing areas, then yes I would want them removed as well as a safety precaution.


common sense

Sure, but you just said that it was safe and that a cow would have to ingest 800 pounds for it to be a problem. I definitely understand removing livestock during the poisoning, but 90 days after? Sounds like warfarin is a bit more of an issue for non-target species than they claim.

Also, do you really think that every poisoned hog is going to be buried 18 inches below the surface as recommended on the label? Why would you have to bury all the hogs if warfarin is so safe?

http://www.pestsmart.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/pig_baiting_warfarin.pdf

They stopped using it in Australia in 2009 after they decided it was inhumane.

Old news bud...

Gotta appreciate how Miller helped to "fast-track" this stuff. You know he did it after consulting with all knowledgeable parties, right? For example, here is TPWD's statement confidently backing up Miller as they were involved in this from the start (sarcasm)...


http://tpwd.texas.gov/huntwild/wild/nuisance/feral_hogs/

Aren't you glad to know that this was so well researched before being approved?

Yep, it sure looks like a rush job from where I sit …



http://www.ktre.com/story/34562742/east-...thing-dogs-deer

Yeah, I feel better

DNS, four other entities have the same concerns as TPWD. Only the Department of Agriculture has chosen to use Warfarin.

I am sure there are several entities with concerns. It is just thsy you would think that with the wildlife issue being a major concern that TPWD would have been involved. Obviously, they were not.

They were and are, but they chose a different path.

Their statement indicates Miller did not involve them in any significant manner.

Of course not, they disagree.

Isn't that significant in and of itself? I would think that you would want an agency as well regarded as the TPWD to be on the same page as the Ag Commission before putting this plan into action. If the TPWD disagrees with the Ag Commission about the viability of Warfarin, I'm inclined to side with the TPWD. To me, that is the most concerning part of the whole thing.

I've long held that the TPWD is the best run, and perhaps only Texas Agency that is actually worth its salt. If they had no say in this process, or if they disagree with the use of Warfarin, that is a large red flag. I'm under the assumption that most people on this forum, and indeed most Texas hunters share similar views of the TPWD, but perhaps I am wrong.

Being from Arkansas i don't know anything about Javelina but it would seem to me if they eat some of the same foods it would be almost impossible to not have a problem with them also eating the bait.

I'd think javelinas would be the most likely off target animals to be effected. Even if the poison is distributed following all regulations and using the special feeders, if a hog can get into it to feed, I'd wager that a javelina could do the same. I'd hate to see a sudden decrease in the state's population of roving football shaped hoover-linas. They may not be worth much, but they're fun to see.

TPWD has been studying Sodium Nitrite since at least 2010. They clearly feel it is the better solution. The two departments apparently disagree while taxpayers fund two state entities to solve the same issue. The Department of Agricultures decision to allow the use of Warfarin would cost TPWD. Their game wardens would no doubt have to deal with the mess. I can't imagine this is a happy situation. You are right, it would seem desirable to have the two agencies on the same page.

Don't forget politics. The political realities may dictate that TPWD goes along with the Warfarin Plan, or at least doesn't actively oppose it. Still, to me it's significant that they weren't all in agreement prior to this action being initiated. Not sure that will really matter in the long run.

https://www.change.org/p/texas-hog-hunte...8YWY2%2floovJkf

The injunction is a small victory, and as noted, temporary. It isn't stopping the use of Kaput at this point because Kaput wasn't even going to be out on the market until May. This just assures it won't be out this month.

The injunction is on technical grounds and doesn't address the more serious concerns. So if Miller can formulate a proper work around and doesn't stupidly try a fast-track method again, we are left with the same serious concerns. It was a moronic poly on Miller's part, but one I don't think he will repeat.

They were and are, but they chose a different path.

The problem with a study showing how long it takes a dose to metabolize is that the way the feed with warfarin is to be applied in Texas, a pig will continue to eat each day until it dies or becomes too sick to eat.

the bait only contains .005% warfarin, hogs are basically hyper allergic to the stuff (think a kiddo with peanut allergy, even the remnants of peanut oil etc. can kill them).
seems to me that the dosage is small to protect other species, .oo5% miniscule to the extreme.
like I have said before, this will not be spread all over the state on every ranch, I would like to see some closely monitored test sites first but from what I have learned this stuff is no danger to other species.

as for cleaning them up, buzzards/coyotes/bobcats etc. all have to eat as well and I seriously doubt this bait would harm them.

Here's a new article outlining the issue.

http://www.chron.com/sports/outdoors/art...ue-10995283.php

Good read. At this point I don't have enough information to condone the use of warfarin to poison hogs but, I hold fire ants and feral hogs in the same regard and while I have enjoyed catching and killing hogs for 20+ years I look forward to the days when we can tell all our old hog killing stories and only remember the good hog killing days instead of the reality of money and livestock lost to these sorry sob's. Kill Em' all.

like fireants we will never rid ourselves of hogs, EVER. what we have to do is control them and kaput is one way I see of doing that with minimal risk to other wildlife.
we put down chemicals to control ants that have much more potential of harming our pets than warfarin would, ever read what is in fireant granules?


my point in all this has been that we have a method available to landowners (who should have final say in this bs) to control the hog pop. but we have a group of self centered hunters that are fearing that they will lose the ability to hunt pigs, guess what, even with warfarin we will never completely eradicate pigs from Tx.

I have yet to see any group of landowners come out against this bait, why is that? all I see is a group that has a financial interest in keeping the hogs plentiful and this is just bad wrong in my book.

Your logic is interesting, challenged even. Landowners have financial interest as well, so before you go and decide one group is more self centered than the other, understand that it is a two way street.

I haven't seen any group of landowners come out for Warfarin, certainly none willing to file a counter suit to reinstate Warfarin either. Have you?