Cubing Points

Hey, I must have missed this, but on another forum they posted that Texas is cubing preference points this year, which would greatly increase likelihood of drawing. Have ya'll seen this? Could be some happy point holders this year if I'm understanding this right.

Yep they will be doing that this year.

https://tpwd.texas.gov/huntwild/hunt/public/public_hunt_drawing/faqs.phtml

I have 25 points for exotic. That means my name will be in the hat 15,625 times. I would be kinda shocked if I didn’t draw. This new system will greatly benefit high point holders. But should wipe them out pretty quick.

Wow! Just read the line and you are correct. They are no longer "Preference Points" and "Loyalty Points for each application will then be cubed for the drawing (example: 2 Loyalty Points would be 2 x 2 x 2 = 8 points for the drawing)." I'm glad I've racked up a few points in most categories, but no doubt it will stack the odds for the long timers.

Sounds like a good year to skip entering for people with low preference points.

Or at least to just enter a category one time to get the point for the future. But yeah, I don't think I'll enter a category multiple times anymore. I'd guess they are figuring that this will also bring the applications down and thus the odds up.

I'd still like to see them charge non residents more to apply, to bring the applications down while maintaining or even raising the income to the state coffers, like most western states do. But that's another topic.

That's great news! I've got some serious points racked up in several categories.

But there are a bunch of us point bag holders in the draw and most with those kind of points are only going to be wagering those points on the best hardest to draw hunts. I have 26 points in gun deer either sex. So add one for current year/27. Cubed I'm in that draw for 19,683 drops in the hat. I bet it takes a few years to flush us all out. This first year I feel sorry for the guy that gave up and threw those points at an easy to draw hunt last season or worse does it this year not knowing that they just changed it to a cubed draw.

I assume a group of high point holders could game the system even more now. They way it was figured out in a thread on here a year or two ago was that for example one person with 25 points enters they get 25 drops in the hat. When two persons with 25 points enter as a group, though the average is 25 points, each of the two now gets 25 drops in the hat with the other group member tagged onto each other's 25 entries. So what happens is each ends up with 50 drops in the hat instead of 25. That group of two now cubed has a combined 140,608 drops in the hat if that is truly the way the system does that draw. A group of 4 where each person has 25 points would end up with 1,124,864 drops in the hat. And I am still not certain if it is that way. I never could get a straight answer from TPWD when I asked.

That is not the way it works. The points in a group are averaged and than cubed for the group. The group is one application.

I got to thinking about this and this. I think it’s going to make some of the highly demand Deer hunts such as the Chapparal really hard to draw for low point holders. But I thinking this may actually increase the odds of the less desirable hunts as less people are willling to burn there points on these. I have recently drawn in the 3 deer categories and only have 2 for buck and 0 for doe and management. I would be real curious to see how many points the average person has applying for the deer hunts. It’s going to be an interesting year for sure.

That is not what some people were told by TPWD in the past. They were told the computer does not have a way to draw by group application. Only by individual. Thus giving the unintended consequence of giving a preference to group applicants over individual applicants.
This was the last thread on the forum when it came up where I was corrected someone same as you did me that it draws by group leader, not by individual. I emailed TPWD with the question by giving both scenarios. I included the reply from TPWD on the thread where they said it was by individual. That part of the dialog starts about 3/4 of the way down the thread. Still not sure I got a straight answer though.
https://texashuntingforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/7618442/

Sniper this is a direct quote from TPWDs website

"When applying as a group, Loyalty Points will be averaged for everyone on the application"

Yeah this does change the game quite a bit. Overall I think cubing as well as the group odds are bad ideas. I am glad that people who have applied for so long will almost surely get those hunts used however I do see this impacting the revenue they are able to generate when people do not get any draws. Also, trying to factor draw odds is basically out the window.

Everyone has their own point of view however I will miss the way it was.

The only thing that I think this will help is people showing up for their hunts. Which is good and bad depending on your flexibility to roll up on standby. If someone has put in for 25 years..... they are going to make that hunt.

The problem is that quote is still correct in the scenario I used when I asked TPWD. Each member would then be entered with the averaged number of entries. If two persons apply together with one point each, the average would be one. One entry under the 1st applicant that would float the 2nd applicant, and one entry under the 2nd applicant that would float the 1st applicant. This is the scenario I gave when I asked if it is drawn by a group or by individual. They said individual. So it came over as each individual gets the average number of points entered into the computer system, with other members of the group floated on each other's entrys, but I seriously doubt the person who answered understood the question. I agree with you that it more likely it draws by group like a western hunt where the group is assigned a random number for the draw rather than by individual name. I just know people have been told otherwise.

Another related question that I have got different answers on was if applying as a single hunter gives an advantage. For example what happens when say they are drawing 10 hunters for a hunt. Each application can have up to 4 in a group. The computer first draws two groups of 4 leaving 2 spots left to draw. Does the computer pass over groups of 3 and 4 until it gets to a group of 1 or 2 to fill the remaining two spots? Or does it draw the next group regardless of size adding any additional hunters over the assigned quota. I have seen standby draws done both ways with each area manager saying that was how TPWD does the draw. Or does it draw by number of groups allowed regardless of the number of hunters allowed. I have been on a computer drawn postcard hunt where there were 8 spots with each application up to 4 hunters. I was a single hunter drawn as one group. Another group of 4 was drawn. That hunt drew by group, not by individual. Only 6 hunters were drawn and on the hunt. They did not take standbys.

Not a fan one bit. Sounds like its hurting my odds. Id put in for multiple hunts in a single category and be fine with a less that desirable draw. I use the public land draw as my chance to hunt each year I was something like 7 of 9 years drawning so I have very few PP and will be waiting a long time to get drawn now. Oh well guess I got priced out of deer hunting in Texas yet again thanks TPWD



Ill probably stop putting in for big horn sheep and for sure will stop for oryx and gemsbok. Ill never be able to compete with the guys that have a 3-5 year head start on points. Anyone starting is almost throwing their money away they for sure will never make up ground as theres too many people for the limited number of oppertunities, Oh well im sure someone smarter than me said its a good idea but I l know Ill be saving a few dollars each year now by not putting is for near the number of $10 hunt or even less desirable $3 hunts

I don't think non-residents should even be allowed to apply to hunt on state land. Hunting state wildlife on state land should only go to state residents.

However, the western states non-resident policies for hunting on federal land are total bs.

New Mexico sure tries to lean this way, but they can't exist without our $. It's that way in so many areas involving that state. Hate us, love our money.

New Mexico would give non-residents 0% of the permits if they thought they could get away with it. They'd prefer to just get your money through the federal government like all other welfare recipients.

The cubing of points sure skews the odds towards people with lots of points. Seems sort of fair but I wonder how they came up with cubing instead of squaring or quading?

Loyalty Point Breakdown with the new cubing system:
1: 1x1x1 = 1
2: 2x2x2 = 8
3: 3x3x3 = 27
4: 4x4x4 = 64
5: 5x5x5 = 125
6: 6x6x6 = 216
7: 7x7x7 = 343
8: 8x8x8 = 512
9: 9x9x9 = 729
10: 10x10x10 = 1,000
11: 11x11x11 = 1,331
12: 12x12x12 = 1,728
13: 13x13x13 = 2,197
14: 14x14x14 = 2,744
15: 15x15x15 = 3,375

I am really bored today.

Will be like other states, where point creep eventually guarantees you will need 20+ points to draw anything worthwhile. I’m too old to even have a chance. You would have to start applying while in elementary school.

OOPs, you forgot one:

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That's the key one right there! I always considered my application fee pretty much a donation, with an occasion for hope periodically.

Did they just add this???, I did not notice the cubing mentioned when they first opened up the draws this year at the beginning of July

Uh... ya think

Sniper your wrong they average points of the group, if you have a group of two and one person has 10 point, one has 3 your group poins are 6.5 and they round up to 7, clear as mud?

Good to know, very glad you guys brought this to my attention. It seems like y'all are very knowledgeable in this process so would like to ask a couple of questions. Just want to make sure but it appears that you only get one loyalty point per year per category regardless of if you apply to 3 separate hunts within a given category or just the one. Is that correct? If so I wasted money last year being that I applied to alot of hunts thinking that even if they are not my most desired hunt that I would be building points toward the future. Also, if you get drawn for a hunt within a category whether you buy the permit or not does it reset your points back to zero for that particulsr category? If so, it is unwise to apply unless you are certain you would want to go on that hunt. Looks like I will be much more careful with what I apply to moving forward. Thanks for any reply.

You get one Point per year per category, regardless of how many hunts you apply for in a category.

You lose your points when you are drawn for a hunt.

Thank you Sir. Guess I won't be applying to as many hunts as I have in the past.

Yes even if you get drawn and don't buy the permit the points are gone.

Hadn't seen this until now. My 4,5,6 points don't look as good anymore !! Good thing I found and booked a couple of hunts from those posted on the outfitters forum !!

I thought the draw odds were bad before... with a cubed point system it makes the odds down right horrible. I had 5 points in all categories but I will no longer be applying. Money better spent in other ways. Thanks guys for bringing this to my attention.

Seems to me that this cubing approach would wipe out the high point holders pretty quickly. Giving us 5,6,7 point holder guys a better chance. Is that an inaccurate assumption?

When you make an assumption, you make an a$$ out of you and umption.

Just messin with you. Yea, That sounds about right. Maybe that's why they cubed points instead of squared them like other states.

You are partly correct. On the lower demand hunts (antlerless deer) it will certainly help to flush through the higher point holders.

On the high demand hunts (bighorn, pronghorn, exotics etc.) because so few tags are given out, they will never cycle through the higher point holders 15-20+points. The change unfortunately all but ensure lower point holders will never draw in their lifetime.

Can you get drawn in a category, such as Gun Deer - Either, and your astronomical point count of 15,000 still be applied towards the other Gun Deer - Either that you applied for in the same year?

Or does it only apply to the first one you hit on?

Are they drawn in a certain order for the same category? If so, then how is that determined? If not and all of the hunts in the same category are drawn at the same time then shouldn't all of the points be credited towards all of the hunts in the same category?

THF - please find the response from TPWD - really glad they are always accessible when reaching out.

I can definitely appreciate their perspective and realize they will not please everyone. I still think cubing as far as a weighting is ridiculous however we can all voice are opinion after the season when the survey comes out.

"You’re are correct in that we (Public Hunting Program) have been considering making some changes to the Loyalty Points for several years. The Public Hunting Program sends out a survey every other season (last one being in 2019) to obtain feedback on what we are doing well and what we need to improve on. We ask for levels of satisfaction on various program aspects. Since transitioning to an on-line drawing system and accepting multiple applications from hunters, the number of applications we receive annually has tripled. We have noted over the course of several surveys the level of dissatisfaction with our Loyalty Points increasing. Survey responses also match comments that our staff at our public hunt locations receive annually from public hunters. At the same time, the levels of satisfaction with the ability to submit more than one application within a hunt category has remained constant (75%).

Beginning in 2017, after the results of that season’s public hunt survey, members of Public Hunt Technical Committee began discussing how to increase the value of Loyalty Points while still maintaining the public preference for submitting multiple application within a hunt category. The Public Hunting Technical Committee is comprised of Wildlife Management Area, State Park and regional wildlife staff with decades of knowledge and experience with public hunters and public hunting. After several meetings and numerous discussions, cubing was determined to be the simplest and most direct method to accomplish this.

The drawing will, essentially, be run exactly the same way as before, however, we will now cube the number of times the application is in the draw before that draw is run. An application with the most loyalty points would still not be guaranteed a permit before another hunter with less loyalty points who is in the same draw pool, but their odds of drawing a permit would be increased over someone else in the draw pool with fewer loyalty points. The cubing of loyalty points also does not impact the number of loyalty points a hunter can acquire in any given year (one point per year per category).


We believe the Public Hunt Draw System to be a fair method of distributing hunting opportunity across the many areas of Texas. We appreciate all feedback about our program and understand that by listening to hunters such as yourself, we will be better able to fulfill our mission to provide more hunting opportunity. The next Public Hunt Program Survey should be emailed early next year – probably March 2021.?

Over on texasbowhunter someone posted once you draw points go away for the remaining draws, I guess they draw in the order they are listed which is basically alphabetical

I contacted TPWD and the confirmed what Bossbowman said. Once you draw a hunt in a category all the following drawing in that category including the second draw.