ATF ruling on SBRs

If the ATF makes everyone register their pistol, what stock is everyone putting on their new SBR?

Also, anyone have an opinion on the law tactical folder? (Or any of the knock offs)

Always wanted one of those.

I’m going with the LWRC Micro stock. It’s almost as short as most the PDW stocks out there but you can actually get a good cheek weld on it. Been running on of my other SBR for a while now.

This is my micro 300BLK 5.5” barrel that I’m about to SBR. Christmas present to myself.

So if they make everyone register does that mean they will have to throw down $200 for a tax stamp?

Absolutely, you think they gonna miss out on their mullah.

Been warning people about this for a month or two.

Only silver lining…the end of the goofy azz brace. Im not a fan of the ATF but the brace has been a loophole since day 1 and it was always destined to eventually be shutdown. The ATF probably finally got tired of answering letters about the proper use of braces, realized they were missing out on a bunch of tax $, and just said “eff it, lets just kill these things and be done with this, plus we’ll make a little $ and we can have a few more pizza parties”

So are they going to make you disassemble it until the stamp comes in? Or have they said?

Yes. I think they give you 4 options

Disassemble
Destroy
Turn in
Register (still have to disassemble until you get your stamp)

Actually they are just fine with braces and the TB already decided as such. This is straight from Biden in an EO.

There is no silver lining to this. The only thing goofy about this is having to pay the man $200 just to have a barrel shorter than 16”

Eh, not true. There isnt an EO targeted at braces. It was a Executive Action which is not the same. Basically just the ATF asking Biden to help them move things along. ATF has been against braces since the inception, now they just have the endorsement they needed. If it was an Executive Order, we wouldnt be sitting here months later with braces still on our guns.

You also have the option of replacing the pistol-length barrel with a rifle-length one. Not that it's much consolation, but at least you keep the lower & BCG this way.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as of right now they have not released any rulings, and none of us really KNOWS anything. We can speculate based on drafted proposals of rules, but no new rule has come out. Correct?

This is as far as it has gotten so far.

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2021-06-10/pdf/2021-12176.pdf

Biden ordered it in April and the TB wasn’t prepared for it so it’s been pushed back several times. It was supposed to be finalized in December.

Yep supposed to go into effect this month, but haven't heard anything else on it lately.

So remove the brace, still a pistol.

One article said there will be an initial grace period when you register it without paying the tax. Free SBRs for everybody!

That’s over now.

That's over as in we had the opportunity and missed the window? Or over as in it's no longer going to be instituted?

Missed the window I believe. I don’t really know for sure they’ve change it so many times and I’ve watched so many videos with conflicting information my brain is fried lol. I think the window was October and November.

Well, hell. If I'd have known that, I'd have built a couple of SBRs.

So who wants to draft a letter for our TX reps asking them and Abott can make a TX law protecting us from this federal overreach?

Might want to brush up on your civics lessons.

Which part?

Where state laws cannot overrule federal.

Seems to be ok for pot so what’s the big deal? If sanctuary cities are acceptable for illegal immigration why not for the second amendment?

Sure they can, Supreme Court would have to decide though.

Not really open to interpretation... Article VI, Paragraph 2 of the US Constitution states that federal law controls in cases of conflict. It's not a grey area.

Pot is still illegal federally, regardless of what states do. If they were so inclined, the DEA could bust everyone in Colorado and there is absolutely nothing the state could do about it.

Texas could pass whatever they want as far as SBRs and the feds would completely ignore it. That's why you still can't buy a Texas made suppressor without a tax stamp.

I think I read in the ATF documentation that they did not move forward with this because braces are not serialized and there wasnt a way to verify if someone had actually bought a brace, so ppl could essentially claim they bought 10 and get 10 SBRs tax free.

Waiting for the response of “well then TX should just secede then, because you know…we’re the only state that has the right to and we’d survive as our own nation just fine”. In 3,2,1

Smart of them because I was going to SBR every lower I own and could get my hands on quickly regardless if they had 16”+ barrel on it or not.

That was my plan too. Yes Mr ATF Agent,I bought these 5 AK pistols, 5 AR pistols, 5 PCC pistols all with braces so here’s all 15 Form 1s and excited about saving $3000.

Everything is open to interpretation.

Good point. Girls can be boys. Boys can have babies. It's all open to interpretation.

I have my 2022 year end performance review today. No matter what I hear from my boss or what my rating is, Im just gonna respond with “well, everything is open to interpretation”. I think this is the answer to any problem Ive ever faced. Best tool since “i know you are, but what am i?”

Sure the feds could/would ignore it but wouldn't it be nice for Texas to tell all city/county/state LEOs to ignore the ATF's rule change? Part of the reason states' decisions to ignore federal marijuana laws has been successful is that once the state gave it their rubber stamp of approval, the masses threw their support behind it. Laws are great and all, but when they don't have the support of the masses (nor the support of the state gov), they're fairly difficult to enforce.

Correct...nothing yet.

Guess ATF went ahead with the illegal move

Get a hold of your House of Representatives member, it appears the rule could be blocked by the House.

https://www.breitbart.com/2nd-amend...unity-to-stop-atf-stabilizer-brace-rule/

Good video!

Has the rule actually been added yet?

No

Any update on rule being added to register

No

My opinion, ATF is doing this because DOJ needs money. Quickest way is to force people to pay $200.

Would love for you to explain the tax forbearance for 40 million items in circulation that ATF is now calling SBRs. Seems like not many folks are going to go this route once the forbearance is done, so no money in it except through fines from prosecution (good luck getting any quantifiable number of those)

Don’t have to explain much on that, after 120 days it’ll be payup time.

ATF is not doing any of this for Money. The current administration is anti-gun, and they are doing anything that they can think of to infringe on the 2nd amendment.

Officially on the register as of today

https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...irearms-with-attached-stabilizing-braces

noted that the “cost’ of the rule/law is $288,000,000. WTF?

This brace thing isn't going to happen.The ATF came straight out and admitted to screwing up.The 2nd amendment attorney spoke with one of the main agents at atf.They now realize that there is no way 20 million people can register for an sbr in 3 months lol..They can barely handle 500-1k cases a year.SO ,,the under-breath is saying,,,never happen.And who would enforce it.No leo will,most states have spoken up and said they wont.

The atf worded it as a rule,,,not a law,YET... Rules are only regulated by the person of biz that made it.I don't think any Leo could enforce it. Please correct me if im mistaken on that or am confused in the meaning.

https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/distinguish-between-laws-and-rules/

Texas Penal Code:

Sec. 46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS.

(a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells:

(1) any of the following items, unless the item is registered in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record maintained by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives or otherwise not subject to that registration requirement or unless the item is classified as a curio or relic by the United States Department of Justice:

(A) an explosive weapon;

(B) a machine gun; or

(C) a short-barrel firearm

Your not wrong although the time doesn't matter since it just has to be submitted within the 120 window or rectified to be legal (a few options)





You're completely wrong as ntx pointed out

but thats my point,,in no way could they even look at 200k let alone millions of entrys..
Its an impossible task.The fed laws say if its an impossible task made by a rule or
law,then it cant be regulated or be a law.

Basically it has to be possible,you cant say people cant take a poop after midnight.
Its an impossible rule or law.

knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells:????

so your saying they sent a letter to every person that bought a brace?

Half or more of the people i have spoken with that have no clue about laws
or guns,that own a brace or gun, said they had no idea of the brace law.

Theres just too many loopholes in this law,im guessing that is why they
overturned the bump stock ban...

You sure the bump stock ban has been overturned?

The 13-3 ruling at the 5th U.S. Circuit Court of appeals is the latest on the issue,
which is likely to be decided at the Supreme Court.

Its getting there .when has the courts moved quickly

Ok,,the latest news I have is that liberty for america attorneys are suing the atf.They are basing it on the 2nd amendment as well as other past documentation.

Over 30 states have joined the lawsuit so far..

I’m sure the ATF will continue to thumb their nose at any congressional requests or demands as long as they have the administration on their side.

any more updates on this? Not that I have one but just curious. I can't find any recent info.

I've watched a bunch of this hearing, the ATF chief was definitely in over his head. He did the typical bureaucratic deflection on pretty much every questions.

He did however admit he doesn't know much about guns.

After that bloodbath, I don't see this rule standing in the end. Might take a few years like the bumpstock did, but it will be nullified sooner or later.

I read an article this morning stating that the ATF has received only 125K applications for registration. Estimates on the number of AR pistols out there varies from about 3M to 40M. At either end of the spectrum, that's a really small %.

Quickly running out of time for the courts to do something though.

Well if time runs out and courts still hasn't acted, according to the head of the ATF you can just detach the brace from the pistol and you're good. If they try to prosecute you for constructive intent just tell your lawyer to play the congressional hearing in court. He states plain as day that you won't be prosecuted if you just detach the brace and keep it separate.

And waiving the fee doesn't do any good because it still costs you $200 to get it from individual the trust. Might as well just pay the $200 to go straight to trust if and when the time comes.

Yes, which is exactly what I just did with my PSA Jakl.

I've also heard that all these "free stamps" aren't actual SBR stamps because there was no tax paid. So say you get the free stamp, now you have an SBR why would you run a brace when you can run a real stock. You throw a stock on the gun and a year later this rule is overturned by the courts. Well you now have an illegal SBR sitting in your safe. By that time most people that did this won't even be following this ruling anymore. Now the ATF has a gun registration of all the people that applied for the free stamp which now all have illegal SBRs. If they wanted to, they could go door to door to check them, and they might out of spite for their rule being overturned.

Also I'm pretty sure according to the ATF that once a gun is a "Rifle" it can not be converted back to a "Pistol". So even if this is overturned all those people with free stamps won't be able to just put a brace back on, they'll have to put a 16" barrel on it, destroy it, or pay the $200 tax stamp. So basically back to square one, but now the ATF has a huge list of names and addresses...

"The decision doesn't have an immediate effect on the ban though because the case now moves back to the lower court to decide how to proceed."

https://www.npr.org/2023/01/07/1147698112/bump-stocks-ban-struck-down-court

No, a pistol can be turned into a rifle and back to a pistol. A rifle cannot be turned into a pistol as it was always a rifle.

Let's move from 101 to 401 class now. ATF says that our AR pistols have always been SBRs so they are NFA items, but they are allowing tax forbearance because when they were purchased the law was not clear. So, our once AR pistols are rifles, have always been rifles, and will continue to be rifles. Let's say the rule gets struck down, so does that definition, which means that the same guns the ATF said were, are, and always will be SBRs are now back to what they were classified as on your 4473, in other words a pistol. Assuming you're confused at this point, you can take the stock off and put a brace back on and it's a pistol IF the rule gets struck down.

But there has never been a law passed on AR Pistols, they've always been pistols. Have the ATF made "rulings" on pistols? Yes, but there are no laws just unelected bureaucrats making rules as they see fit with no authority to do so. So really none of this is the law of the land just antigunner rulings, none of which have passed congress who actually makes the laws.

You're correct on the pistol to rifle back to pistol thing. I was just too lazy to go look it up LOL.

Don't try to detangle the birds nest. The official rule is pursuant to the National Firearms Act of 1934 which was amended with the GCA of 1968.


(I'm not saying I don't agree with you, just that we need to get the courts to look at overturning chevron deference)

I've heard that term a lot listening to the 2A Attorneys on this case, went and looked it up still don't 100% understand it. Guess that is why I'm not a lawyer I get the gist of it, but when I read legal mumbojumbo my eyes glaze over.

The way I understand it, Chevron Deference is deferring to the government agencies to interpret any parts of laws that are not specifically addressed by congress. i.e. pistol braces are not specifically addressed by congress. Chevron Deference would defer to the ATF to decide if they are part of the NFA.

Yea I get that, but just like in the latest EPA case where the SC stripped the EPA of its power to enact policy without Congress. It should be a pretty open and shut case. The ATF has no authority or power to do this.

You're preaching to the choir, Kyle.

Oh I know. I just don't see how our elected officials and SC Justices don't see it lol.

There's no money in it.

True, it’s always about the money. Home of the free my [censored]..