Background checks

Can someone tell me what happens after "a person" fills out his "form" at the FFL to buy his gun?

1. LTC Holder
2. Non LTC holder

Not sure why people are calling for background checks ?

LTC holder- make a copy of license and you walk out. No background check.
Non-NICS check and a yes, no or delay decision in a few seconds typically.

All the people calling for more background checks are idiots. All FFL transfer require a background check or valid LTC, no exceptions. There is no gun show loophole, just people that perform private sales (that aren’t FFLs) at a gun show which could happen anywhere. All FFLs at gun shows perform background checks.....universal background checks (is private sale checks) are just a backdoor way to register guns.

I'm sure in the not so distant future they will be trying to regulate private sales, like our classifieds trading post on here.

This post is more of a question than to be informative so correct me if I am wrong.

Every person that has a Federal Firearms License (FFL) to sell has to perform a background check unless you have a license to carry (LTC) because you have already completed your background check.

Universal background checks are for private citizens that sell to each other that don't do background checks. For example, if I sold my gun to my friend I would not need to do a background check on him.

Federal law says that FFL dealers are required to maintain records of the acquisition and sale of firearms indefinitely.

So would universal background checks be a way to keep all guns registered and require private sells to keep similar records? Is that the real debate?

To my understanding, all firearm transfers would be required to go through an FFL. No more meeting John Doe in a parking lot to buy, sale, or trade firearms.

It would essentially eliminate all private transfers including inheritance or gifting.

The financial burden is also pretty high.


Universal background check does nothing to stop mass shootings, and only increases the liabilities for non criminal private citizens

How does it increase the financial burden?

Does nothing to stop bad guys from selling or buying. Bad guys don’t care about laws, only puts more burdens on the goo, law abiding citizens.

Depending on your location, the background check could run anywhere from $10 to $150 per transfer. Many of us are spoiled by the fact that in many parts of Texas, we can get FFL's to do the paperwork for $25 or less. Go to other places in the country where there isn't an FFL on every corner and you can be looking at transfers that are closer to $100. Maybe you live in a bad part of town and you want to give/loan a gun to the elderly next door neighbor that doesn't have $.02 to spare. Neither of you have a car. Not only do you need to find the $$'s to pay for a transfer, but you also need to find the $$'s to transport both of you to the FFL to do the transfer. Now let's say you live in Chicago where the last time I looked, there wasn't an FFL in the city. Maybe you live in some rural area of Texas where the closest grocery store is 45 minutes away, let alone an FFL. Also, lets say you and I are going to go hunting one weekend and I am going to lend you a rifle. We now have to stop at an FFL on the way out of town so I can transfer the rifle to you. When the trip is done, we have to stop on the way back so you can transfer it back to me. That's where the financial burden comes into play.

Yes, I would consider all of those a financial burden. Thanks for explaining

First, when you fill out the 4473 form (paperwork) and you are a non-LTC, then the FFL calls the NICS for background check. This in NO WAY is "registering" your guns! The only thing that is known by NICS is the type of firearm you are purchasing- HANDGUN, LONG GUN, or OTHER. That's it. There is no registration of your gun. There is a paper record of it that the FFL keeps. That's it.The only way for the ATF or anyone to know what you bought is to contact the FFL directly about the transfer.

If a Universal Background check system was enacted between 2 private parties, then the same thing would happen. An FFL would facilitate the transfer from one to the other with the buyer filling out the 4473. The FFL would charge a fee for the transfer.

I suppose some people might feel as uncomfortable with a paper trail of their gun purchase equally as much as their gun being registered. The reason I say that is because they can both be used for the same purposes correct?

1- LTC Holder- you fill out the 4473 form (paperwork), the FFL records your DL and LTC info, you leave with your firearm. No call in to NICS for background check. The FFL keeps the form 4473 for their records. This is the easiest method for buying and transferring firearms.

2- Non LTC- you fill out the 4473 form (paperwork), the FFL records your DL info, calls the NICS system for background check. NICS gives you a status of "Proceed", "Delayed" or "Denied". Often I get a Proceed, but a lot of times now I'm getting "Delayed". The Delayed action requires a 72 hour (business days) waiting period from the next day. So if you get "Delayed" on Monday, you can't get the firearm until Friday (Monday doesn't count for one of the days, and then a full 72 hours or 3 days, then the next day is it). Legally an FFL can transfer the firearm after the 72 hour wait. But a lot of stores will not transfer the firearm at all. Academy will not transfer the firearm from a Delayed response unless NICS calls them back for a "Proceed". I've only been called back once for a Proceed, which is rare. The FFL retains the Form 4473 for their records.

What do you mean by "their gun being registered"?

Buzz, the private sale of a firearm from person to person does not require a back ground check. Selling a gun is like selling a toaster, or whatever. There's no paperwork involved or back ground check for the private sale. This is often referred as the "Gun Show Loophole". At a gun show, private individuals can buy and sell their firearms to each other, with no FFL, paperwork or back ground check involved. The bill that passed the House was this bill. This bill has not gone to the Senate, and this is what our politicians are wanting to move forward on.


https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/8

Shown Here:
Passed House (02/27/2019)
Bipartisan Background Checks Act of 2019

This bill establishes new background check requirements for firearm transfers between private parties (i.e., unlicensed individuals).

Specifically, it prohibits a firearm transfer between private parties unless a licensed gun dealer, manufacturer, or importer first takes possession of the firearm to conduct a background check.

The prohibition does not apply to certain firearm transfers, such as a gift between spouses in good faith.

A back ground check does not "Register" the firearm. It is simply a back ground check on the individual, and the NICS system only knows HANDGUN, LONG GUN, or OTHER, as far as what you bought or transferred. The gun is not "Registered".

Can you elaborate on this, please?

My big question on all of this is how are they going to know if you went thru the transfer process of a background check. Lets say I go hunting with one of the guns that are owned by a household member such as my wife. The gun was purchased by her but is in the same gun safe as the ones I have purchased. Or lets say one that I have purchased thru one of you off of this site. I have no paperwork that shows it is mine anymore than I do for one I just purchased at Academy. Unless they go to registration there is not going to be anyway for them to know.

If you fill out a 4473 the gun is registered simple as that! People can call it what they want but when you fill that sheet out you give your name, address, phone number, date of birth, drivers license, and in some cases your social security number along with the firearm serial number. How on earth is that not "registered"?? LOL!

Ever wonder why they are able to track down where the gun was bought and by whom so quickly?? Its a simple tracking process starting with the maker, then to the distributor, then to the store, and bam.....the 4473. The trail only goes cold when sold to a private party with no bill of sale. If every sale requires a 4473 in the near future you will have backdoor registration.

Now my question is how would a background check have stopped either of these two clowns? I know the El Paso clown bought his legally and I think the other clown did to.

JCB, when talking "Registration", the 4473 is not registering the firearm. The 4473 records the transfer of the firearm, that's it. Gun "Registration" would be what happens in New York and Illinois and some other states. To get a firearm, you have an FOID card (Firearm Owners Identification Card) or permit for the firearm. That is what Gun "Registration" is, not the form 4473. The 4473 records the sell. Yes, the ATF can track down the purchase through legal channels through the mfg, distributor and FFL after the fact. But the firearm is not known to the ATF or government until that happens. So the gun was never "Registered". There is a difference, and that difference is HUGE!!!

I understand that gun owners want to be able to buy and sell guns between each other with no record. That is what is being pushed to change.

This is the question to ask. Take the El Paso shooter. His dad is diagnosed mental issues and such. The news listed all of them, and the list was long. The son (the shooter) was on meds and had some issues also. From my knowledge of the lacking and short falls of the back ground checks is the info available on people is not in the NICS back ground check system. There are MANY records of crimes and mental issues that have not been recorded into the NICS system. Why? Funding. There is a gap in who is responsible to enter this info into the NICS system and these records sit there. What I want to happen is the funding to be found and someone or group be responsible for getting these records into the NICS system. There are many down falls of the NICS system. The NICS system in place is broken as it sits. There are many areas to fall through the cracks. Why not fix the current system and make it better. We don't need more laws and rules. Just fix what's already there.

The Army shooter a year or so ago, he had a criminal history that would have prevented him from passing the NICS background check. But his Army data was not entered into the NICS system. He bought a gun "legally" and passed the back ground check. But he should not have been able to pass the back ground check had his information been in the system. This is what I am talking about.

Now, what constitutes a mental issue? If someone takes medicine for ADHD/ADD, does that constitute a mental issue? It's altering your mental state, so why not? What about Prozac or any antidepressant med? That alters your mind, so would that be considered a mental issue? These are real questions.

Now we are starting to tread on HIPA laws which protects your health information from anyone you don't want seeing it. That shouldn't be a problem much longer though since single payer health care is right around the corner and the people granting you permission to own a gun are the same people that will be providing your health care as well.

Exactly! Now, you are seeing my point. What constitutes a mental issue? And if it does constitute a mental issue, how do you get that info into NICS? I have thought about it and talked about it with some doctors I know. I do not have a solution! You can't make that work without breaking some laws and offending someone.

That's the thing about being politically correct. By not offending one group, you end up offending other groups.

Another thing that's fairly new, is the NICS background check now asks for your identification info. Most use a drivers license, and now NICS asks for this info.

Bingo. Bad guys or crazy guys.

Unless I misunderstood something, only a judge can determine if a mental issue will ultimately stop someone from owning a firearm legally. Quite honestly that is the way it should be. Due process is is an important part of this country still. The moment any bureaucrat has control over an issue like this is when we should all be scared. Similar to when the social security administration started being able to deny firearm transfer for those they deemed couldn’t manage their finances. That should be decided by a judge not some idiot that may or may not be able to tie his shoes.

Sure, but its pretty simple. We can all agree that currently in the state of Texas firearms aren’t “registered” with their sale. However, as you know the ATF can request 4473’s at anytime they want, effectively giving them the option of “registering” any gun sold through an FFL in the last 20 years and probably more. Serial numbers, make/model and all purchaser info is contained on these forms. Currently a private sale isn’t documented anywhere that the ATF or anyone else can legally audit.....Requiring a background check for any purchase that happens would ensure that there is a 20+ year comprehensive “registration” list should the ATF or any unfavorable political administration choose to create one. Ultimately if confiscation was ever instituted one would be a fool to think that the first resource they would tap would be FFL’s and their comprehensive records for transfers.

It is already illegal to transfer a firearm to someone who can’t legally own one so requiring background checks on private party transactions is a joke and serves basically zero purpose other than to inconvenience everyone or other sinister reasons such as what I listed above.

In a private party sale, how would you know if the person you are selling it to can or can't legally own a firearm?

I believe the wording is “knowingly sell” so technically you couldn’t prove it. Universal background checks are completely unenforceable since there is no registration and no way to prove who owns what before and after. Registration would quickly be a next step after universal background checks fail, which they will since our current background checks have proven to be worthless a number of times.

I’ve seen a few private sellers post that they will only sell to a person with LTC. That would be the only clear cut way to tell if a buyer is a legal to own, without a UBC.

Guns are not killing people. We have a societal breakdown/mental health/drug problem - not a gun problem. How many guns did Timothy McVeigh need to kill 168 people in an instant? How about the mad men who plow their car down a sidewalk?

Heavy gun ownership has been the norm in this country for many years. Best estimates are that there are 5-10 million privately owned AR's in the USA. As a percentage, how many of those are used for killing sprees, vs. good uses?

All of this talk about gun control will do nothing to stop violent people from being violent. It is strictly a political talking point to make it look like "we are doing something."

In 2017 there were 403 deaths by rifle, that is all rifles combined, not just the scary black ones. There were 1591 knife deaths, 692 by fists or feet, and 467 by blunt objects....ARs are not the problem and new background checks aren’t going to fix anything. Al they will do is give liberals another step towards tots confiscation when they don’t work.

If I sell or buy a gun from a private individual, that’s exactly how it will be kept, private.

UBC is a joke.

Your stats are not correct. The data you got that from is a link on murder victims ONLY. That doesn't count any other deaths of self defense or LEO. Even the second stat shows this with 3096 murders where a firearm was used but not listed as what type. I can guarantee you there were more than 403 rifle deaths in the year of 2017. The Las Vegas shooter killed 58, Sutherland Springs, Texas shooting killed 26, both with a rifle. That's 84 in only 2 shootings. There are certainly more than 403 with a rifle for 2017.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/195325/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-weapon-used/

Murders is what I was showing (sorry I wasn’t clear) and they are correct, per the FBI and the website you linked. Those numbers came from the FBI stats, so 403 murders that were reported by rifle in 2017. Not sure how to quantify the unknowns since well it is unknown what weapon was used.....

I'm not sure what to believe anymore, it seems that everywhere you look, all stats are different on all accounts, but haven't really seen stats on mental stability to different shootings especially on mass shootings. Chicago, New York, Los Angeles
etc... are a different story