Herd Management Practices

Curious to hear what some other folks herd management practices are?

We open bucks up to be hunted at 5.5ys old. This in practice almost always guarantees bucks to live until 6yrs as our 5yd olds tend to be very nocturnal whereas that changes significantly in our 6 and older age class. The only exception is 4yr old 6pts which we will aim to take out, but have probably had less than 5 in the 15yrs of being on the ranch. Priority of bucks goes oldest to youngest, lowest potential to highest potential. However if at any time we see one of our shooters we take it knowing anything can show up at anytime.

Doe are shoot insight unless you can tell they are hot, then you can play the odds and see what’s following them.

We tend to have 6-8 buck tags and 20-25 doe tags and between work schedules it can be hard to get all the doe hence the aggressive philosophy there.

Also believe that on a free range ranch it’s impossible to control the antler genetics of a herd, so no culling or spike shooting here. Seeing spikes is usually just a good reason to shoot more doe IMO. We just do our part to let deer get old and improve the nutrition of the land. I guess we cull our 4yr old 6pts but that is more under the idea that land can only hold so many mature bucks and we would prefer higher potential bucks to stay. So more resource management than trying to improve genetics.

This is a great topic and probably because of its important and controversy, it has been discussed on here many times. Its a topic worthy of a lot of discussion and Im too busy going into the season to spend much time on it. Its a better topic for offseason. Anyway, you will probably get a lot of feedback on this and it will become controversial. Personally, I am really in line with everything you said but some will not be. Your last paragraph I agree with but that is where the controversy will come in. There was a thread last off season called MANAGEMENT BUCKS that went for pages and was one of the best threads ive ever seen on here. Good luck with your thread.
https://texashuntingforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/7870830/re-management-bucks#Post7870830
^^^Heres the old thread. Save everybody a lot of typing to just reread it. At minimum it will give everybody some ideas on how to reply to this thread,

good plan, pay no attention to the nay sayers.

We do cull. Not in the belief that I think we are improving the genetics, but we hunt because we like to shoot and eat deer and some need to be shot. We shoot plenty of does, I do not like to shoot a lot of spikes, generally our two year old bucks weigh about the same as our mature does. If I see a clean spike that is the same size as a good doe he needs to worry. We shoot no brow 6's etc. We make every effort to leave prime looking deer of their age class alone till maturity.

If you are culling them (bucks) before they get to 4.5 than you likely are doing some real good. That is if you are culling them before they rut.
I believe in a well structured herd, both buck to doe and buck age structure, most of the breeding is done by your middle aged bucks (3.5 & 4.5 year olds).
Culling a 1.5 year old spike or even a 2.5 year old 7 point in a herd that is structured correctly is likely doing nothing except saving you some feed money since he isn't likely to get lucky with all the older bucks around. lol

Everyone has a different opinion on this. We keep it simple. Anything less than a 10 point, shoot at 3. Anything over a 10 point, shoot at 5, 6 if you can stand it. Kill 2 does for every buck you harvest. Is it perfect? No. Is it perfectly scientific? No. Also, no matter what, fill your tags! If you're not filling your tags, MLD or otherwise, then your not doing any type of herd management.

Biggest thing is being honest with yourself about what you or your group is actually capable of doing.

If you don't have resources to get a survey and CC study, then do a hunter survey, est numbers then decide what you can actually take via tags and what LO will stomach.

Number one issue for most places normally is approaching or at carrying capacity with to many does, and an age structure with nonexistent or limited mature bucks.

These two things fix a lot, but it means shooting more does and not big bucks.. Again it's an honesty thing, what buy-in will there actually be, and what is going to be Everyone's tolerance year to year.

Your last sentence has been proven false through genetic research looking at sires of offspring. Shocked the researchers but many doe were bred by scraggly bucks without antler phenotypes that you would think would give an advantage, plus, if doe numbers are out of whack then there are doe being bred when macho big guy is off locked down with the first hot doe. The researchers surmised quite a bit of breeding was done by young bucks watching the bigger bucks fighting and sneaking in and getting the job done while not noticed.

I have always kept my eye on those quiet young bastards, no matter the species.

^^Really good basic stuff by Bobo right there.

Getting your buck to doe ratio in balance is the single most productive management practice you can do to improve your antler quality. Some have touched on it above. I do surveys every fall and work with our TPWD biologist on doe and buck numbers to take every year. We are MLD conservation option. I feed protein free choice from at least Feb 1 to September. Deer are well within carrying capacity. We are not in an antler restriction county. Because of this, we can target any antler chacteristic we don’t like.

We shoot spikes. We have very few, and I have seen none this year after reviewing 6 weeks of photos. We shoot 2 yr olds with only one or no brows. We shoot 3 year olds that are 7 or less and 8s with inferior characteristics (short tines, narrow spread, pencil thin mass). We shoot any 8 at 4 unless super wide with exceptional tine length. We’ve been following this for six years and the number of what I consider inferior bucks has decreased over that time period. Last year we began taking inferior 10s at 4. None of this may really be helping, but as our biologist emphasizes, we are at least removing mouths that compete with the deer we have identified that we want to reach their potential.

Reducing mouths to feed is the biggest issue with almost all deer leases/hunting ranches. Very few people will get ost that where you can get doe to buck ratio in line, then start stratifying the age classes. It is work and not easy if you dont have a group to help do the work on a larger tract of land where herd management would even apply.

Heres a legit question for all those in the convo, what would you consider the minimal size place to even consider herd management issues to be relevant? In my mind, smaller than 100 acres and you are simply talking deer number management and not really herd management. While some could argue numbers=herd management, the splitting hair difference is asking how many animals CAN be taken off a property vs how many animals SHOULD be taken off a property. Someone on the wrong property doing doe reduction is going to find fewer and fewer deer just because the numbers of deer/acre are not huge or the number of acres is not huge. I think the size of the place is certainly dependant on the locale and characteristics of the place.

First thing that comes to mind when I hear herd management is killing does. Unfortunately many would rather try to manage by killing bucks by using the term cull or management. The goal is a 1-1 ratio but not all old and not all young you need to kill some of every age if you can.

Well sir, all I can tell you is what I've personally witnessed on ranches that were very well managed with very balanced age structured herds. And what I saw was 3.5 & 4.5 year old bucks doing an overwhelming amount of the breeding.

I don't think there is a minimum size. The size affects what you have to work with and your amount of control/influence, but every time you shoot or do not shoot a deer you are affecting management. Say you shoot 2 deer off 50 acres a year 1 buck and 1 doe. You have a 3.5 year old 10 that you dont shoot and shoot instead a doe and a spike. You just did some form or other of management. Now on 50 acres the affect of what you did will only be observed if your neighbors do similar.

You also have to figure in predators and parasites and
poaching and bucks fighting, road kill, etc. etc.

Too many ways for a wild animal to die to count on
seeing the same ones year after year unless you
high fence and feed

I assume by a statement like that you have witnessed nearly all the breeding that has happened on all the ranches you have been a part of......of course that's a smart azz comment back to you, but what I was trying to get at is genetic testing has shown what your eyes are telling you is wrong. That's why I wrote what I wrote. And continuing those types of myths does nothing good for realistic deer management.

Sure, well managed ranches probably have young deer/scraggly deer breeding to a lesser extent than unmanaged ranches, but the fact is there is a lot of breeding done in a short window, and while the older more dominant bucks may breed the first couple hot does, we all know deer go into a lock down with a hot doe for around 12-24 hours. If all the other doe turn hot soon after (which is biologically what happens) then who is breeding all the rest of those hot does? You bet it is the younger and less able bucks. It is just a numbers game, a dominant buck can not be in sixteen places all at once. The fact there even is a such thing as a "second rut" or sometimes "third rut" is nature telling you the doe population is way too high and the bucks can not breed all the doe in their first cycle. That also tells you the doe being bred are being bred by inferior phenotype bucks and young bucks.

The better part of this conversation is that genetic expression is not equal to phenotypical expression, and that buck phenotype is not dependent on the sire's antler phenotype. As we all know half (more or less) of the buck genetics come from the doe, but even saying that, research has shown some really average phenotype bucks can throw off some really impressive baby bucks who grow into nice phenotype bucks with time. So the adage of shooting phenotypically bad bucks is very low on the totem pole of deer management because there are so many factors going into what drives buck phenotype. Reduce mouths, habitat, food sources, deer ratios, age stratification...I am sure I missed a few steps on the way, but age stratification is the last thing any of us need to worry about.

I have heard much about this and read a little. Plain & simple, I ain't buying it. No way no how and not sure how the numbers in the study I read were skewed, adulterated and/or whatever. If were to believe what you have swallowed, well managed ranches with desirable "phenotypical expression" would go backwards without the genetic input of those with less desirable "phenotypical expression".

There is always theory and research, With a lot of research not being able to be replicated, and a lot of theory that provides excellent results that didn't actually occur because of the theory’s practices.

End of the Day all Management plans need to start with expectations and ability, then herd documentation, then habitat usage documentation, then reference back to ability vs expectations.

Only way you truly influence genetics with limited tags, is gene swamping by a DPM pen. When you combine it w/ unlimited tags, then you are just cutting time frames down significantly.

The the killing part of management is just a choice of which gets to continue growing/eating, w/ a very very causal influence on breeding.

One year on a 400 acre place in the Texas Hill Country, we killed 35 does. Needless to say, does were pretty jumpy. In the 2 years after we eliminated the does, the bucks were better and we killed some better than average bucks. There were probably 2 factors working for us.
1. The elimination of the 35 does provided extra food for all the remaining deer.
2. New and different bucks and does ended up on the place because of the void caused by killing the 35 does.
After 2 years, we were back in the same shape as we were before killing the 35 does, because of the number of deer in the Hill Country. It was like digging a hole in sand.

, yep. Now its rolling and after a few pages the wheels will come off. Dont get me wrong, great topic, but until I get to talk to the deer I just dont think anyone knows anything with certainty. I have my opinions and I stated many on the other thread, but it just gets old to retype. I do like to listen to others and try to pick and chose how I interpret and what i take away. Carry on gents, Im off to the lease again soon so gotta get ready. Exciting times.

One year on a 400 acre place in the Texas Hill Country, we killed 35 does. Needless to say, does were pretty jumpy. In the 2 years after we eliminated the does, the bucks were better and we killed some better than average bucks. There were probably 2 factors working for us.
1. The elimination of the 35 does provided extra food for all the remaining deer.
2. New and different bucks and does ended up on the place because of the void caused by killing the 35 does.
After 2 years, we were back in the same shape as we were before killing the 35 does, because of the number of deer in the Hill Country. It was like digging a hole in sand.

Jealous, wont be back to our place till we are finished with the move. You must be doing something right with that proof in the pudding thing.

kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill a buck kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill a buck kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill a buck kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill a buck kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill a buck kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill a buck kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill a buck kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill a buck kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill a buck kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does kill does

We had a very similar experience on an almost 800 acre place in the hill country. Way too many deer and to make matters worse it had goats and cattle on it. With 6 hunters on the place (i know too many) only 3 would shoot a doe. We took almost 15 does a year for several years and it made a tremendous difference, even with the other hunters still only shooting bucks and young ones at that. Have family that hunts the place and sure enough in about 2-3 years after we got off the lease and the doe killing went back to nada all the better bucks have once again disappeared.

Red, keep working hard and saving. IM RETIRED.
I was there last Wed through Sun and now I going back tomorrow. My better half asked me why I even came back. I told her to wash clothes and check my mail and to see her. Well, Im in the dog house, so it didnt take long to do the clothes and the mail.

That has been the answer for every property in Texas that I have personally hunted on, yet there are people who still say they never shoot does and are low on deer numbers. Its ok with me if we didn't have does to shoot we wouldn't get to pull the trigger much.

Im impressed. Is there a way to do that without having to actually type it all out?

I am not allowed to divulge state secrets like that. Highlight what you want, Ctrl-C to copy and Ctrl-V to paste.

"We just hired a new wildlife manager and he said to keep those three and a half year old six pointers because they can sire better looking deer." - Statement never heard before.

How big of a framed six are we talking?

stop it

Come on Hud. Everybody on here always talks about loving a big 8. So whats wrong with a really big 6?

I have made a distinction between well managed and unmanaged. Really, how many hunters in the state have any management other than just saying "don't shoot baby bucks" or something silly like that, lots of places its "brown and down". I am not saying there can't be places where extreme management has worked to benefit the herd, and we know some people who have been successful doing it. Its work, long and hard work. And requires lots of tags, which the vast majority of hunters do not have.

You also have to remember that well managed ranches are doing a whole lot of good things to bring optimal genetic expression, mainly shooting does (reducing mouths to feed), allowing bucks to mature (increasing age), maximizing nutrition (increasing food) and optimizing habitat (reducing physical stress). Any of those factors alone or in combination will help maximize phenotype expression. So don't discount the efforts being done. It is easy to blame the regularly seen 180 class buck on a well managed place and assume it is because of the "culling" that has been done in the years past to bring those genetics to the "forefront" while forgetting or ignoring the gobs of 130-140 class bucks walking beside those 180's. As humans we want cause and effect for decision we make. We want to believe that shooting all 2yo 6 points or 4you 8pts or whatever little to no brow tines at 2 and above makes a difference to the genetic make up and create a better deer genetic pool to allow better bigger deer. Truth is, on a low fence native genetics ranch, that genetic pool is really kind of set in stone because no matter how hard you try, there is 50+/-% of the genetics coming from something there is NO WAY to tell anything about and there are always outsiders coming in to mix in the pool. So at best you have a slush pool full of the same genes. What well managed places do well is manage a lot of other aspects that allow for better genetic expression by reducing mouths, bringing ratios in line, maximizing nutrition and habitat, and allowing deer to get old. If you are talking about legitimately stratifying deer based on age class and antler phenotypes, then either you are a 1% LF ranch, a HF ranch where things are slightly more controlled, or justifying you shooting deer and ignoring the other aspects you are doing but aren't giving credit to.

Does that make sense?

What if that buck had a history of being a super framed 8pt and it was a hard spring/summer and he dropped to being just a 6, would you let him walk hoping he made it back to being a super framed 8 again?

The one study done that I can remember looking at genetics and phenotypical expression showed a modest 120-130 buck spit off the biggest buck in the whole study. It was a multiple year study, I believe 9 years and they looked at at least three generations of deer IIRC.

The biggest takeaway from the study was that drought or lack thereof had the biggest effect on phenotype, where nearly every buck dropped 15-20 inches in severe drought and parental phenotype had very little predictability to future offspring phenotype, mainly because of the drought conditions that are hit or miss in Texas. Catching a deer at any given year is just a glimpse of the true genetic potential of the animal, with so many factors playing on the phenotypical expression of the genetics. We al lknow bucks can vary quite a bit from year to year based on the physical stress they went through the year before, so how can one reasonably assume that any one glimpse at any given time in that bucks life is a true expression of its genetic potential?

Intensive management -smoked
THF lease -smoked

Most big framed eights still fall under management criteria. A big eight that drops 15-20” is not going to happen except in extremely rare times. 15-20” is a huge percentage for an 8 if that makes since. Main frame 12 not so much of a drop % wise

Not discounting what you are saying at all, but I saw a main frame 8 on FR's place last year that would have been a 160+ deer that was a 140ish deer last year due to bad spring/summer rains. Had he been the size in 2020 he was in 2019, and FR had pics of him from his camera that year to show his size, he would have likely been a dead deer last year. He easily dropped 15 if not 20 inches and this was in a non-fed lease (at the time). It can happen.

Sort of agree on the 6 pt....if you only get one buck, are you gonna waste it on a 6 pointer? Not a lot of people are gonna answer that in the affirmative. With enough tags, for sure....not everyone gets multiple buck tags a year (aside from a spike)

As was pointed out to me by a friend on here, I hope I am not offending anyone by offering counter points. I am really trying to keep the conversation going. I may do that in an adversarial way, and for that I apologize. I don't want to make anyone mad or feel offended by anything I say. I like to offer counter points to stir convo or thought. Never intend to offend. If I have, again I apologize.

Our plan is pretty simple. Shoot the heck outta the ugly until only the pretty is left. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Im far from an expert on the subject, but after talking with a deer breeder, his take was that in a true low fence native genetic environment that your worst buck had just as good a chance of siring the next trophy as your current trophy did.

I know and I am saying hog wash.

My management is simple.....it is better the get rid of what you don't like than keeping what you do like no matter what size your place is. Think about it. Mouths off a place is the most beneficial management tool in Texas. Not many areas in Texas are within CC. A mouth is not buck or doe specific to me...it is what I don't like. If I don't like my doe numbers, age classes, fawn crop or the look of the bucks by age class then I work on them immediately and it is not a one year and done program. It is on ongoing from the first year on. Bucks are treated the same way depending on the amount of tags available....if he is in the bottom of his age class or not what I like and I have the resources to remove them....then I remove them. If I don't like them now, chances are I will not like him in another year or two year or 5 yrs. Swing deer are not something I want to manage for or wait on the abundant rainfall year in Texas. If I pick a minimum point count then that is what I shoot for...if I pick a minimum score by age class then that is what I shoot for. I am not looking for that one buck that hits a homerun....I am looking an overall herd that is above average for their age class and the area I am in.

That's a good strategy that works for you STX, and would work for everyone else if they followed and had the tags needed.

As I pointed out though, don't discount the other things you are doing to make all deer prettier...feeding, optimizing habitat (water sources being huge importance in So TX) and that work. Those a almost equally as important as shooting, reducing mouths to feed is primo and how you do that is up to anyone.

Not trying to make a believer out of you, but do you care to explain why you think the way you do?

We were fortunate to have secured secured a six year extension to our lease just prior to the start of the 19/20 season. We had been seeing this guy for years and really appreciated his presence. We thought if he could get through another rut, the pasture would be a better place in the future with even more of his offspring around (buck or doe). At the time of this photo, we thought him to be 6 1/2. We are now seeing young 'uns who sure look like they came from this fella. Maybe no, but they are there.
Plain & simple, shoot out the ugly and what remains can be a sight to behold.

And leaving a good buck for seed so that he can breed numerous does is a misnomer also. I have read that the young foolish bucks that are always chasing and acting like a teenager come across numerous chances of breeding does just because they are out and cavorting around, while the buck you want to breed all your does is laying up until dark and not exposing himself to the hunter. Limited amount of time reduces the opportunities. Also read where the bucks breed an average of 5 does/year.

What year did he drop? 4-5 or 5-6 or 6-7. Now what leases will let a 4.5 or older 140 8pt walk and if older what likely hood he goes back up?


160 pt is an extreme rarity, it's upper echelons. It's more rare then a just a “book”. With that said also why he probably wouldn't of made it past 140 8pt as that's a trophy on 99% of leases and was already dead @ 3 on intensely managed if that makes sense

Just because you are seeing a buck with a doe or chasing her does not mean she will stand and let him breed. In breeding pens it has been proven that a doe can have twins that are not related to the same buck...that means a buck fawn was involved in the breeding. There was a study done at Miss. State U. that you need to look into.."Does size matter"? It involves research involving the size of antlers and how the does react to that one characteristic for who they choose to breed. Interesting results to say the least. For a buck to breed 5 does per year, you would have to have a bad buck to doe ratio and then that buck would have to spend 2-3 day with each doe so the odds are slim for him to breed that many in a season. But I do know it happens more than one realizes. You have a one to one buck to doe ratio and the odds of a buck breeding 3 does in one season is slim. You need a very high fawn crop survival rate in order to see results. It does happen that you will see buck that look the same years apart...sometimes multiple bucks that look like multiple bucks from the past.

Herd management is really site specific. Each plan and management goal needs to be catered to each location. Each location can be vastly different in food, water, cover and herd composition when on a 4 wire fence separates the places.

If anyone gets their wittle feelings hurt from a good discussion then they may want to find another more 'flowery site'.

All good stuff I think to discuss here.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Very, very good stuff right here!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

man oh man Hud. If he made it through with the year you guys have had down there he may have exploded!
What a fantastic looking buck.

He is for sure a looker in my book

He likes to gamble on spikes don't let him lie!!!!

Not if I have the tags and resources Bozo. The key to spike removal as part of the management plan is enough acres under the same plan.

Dang I love threads like this.

I wish I had some time to sit around and chat it up with you all. Would be a fun time I am sure of it. I am not as nerdy as I come across on the internet (says the nerd on the internet )

Hud, awesome deer. I hope he did explode for you this year. I am very anxious to see some of my bucks and see how they did with the good spring and summer rains we had. I tend to not see a bunch on camera and its too hot to sit very much in the stands these days. Winter is coming.

Klappenbach shot him last year in the 20/21 season. It all worked out. I could not have been happier.

Beautiful buck. Love seeing that width. What did he go width wise?

25 7/8ths on the inside. It worked well all around. Seldom seen my bud more happy.

That's wider then my Mule deeerss!!!