12 years of AR

I believe this begins the 12th year of AR’s in my county. From my perspective it has been a total bust. We have a relatively small property but are surrounded by much smaller properties. We’re now more than a deer generation removed from these changes. The results for me have been more mature deer, but they have inferior antlers. Any wide buck is killed the minute it hits 13 inches. It used to be common for me to see bucks 16-18 inches wide (with the widest I’ve taken being 22 inches) but those have now become unicorns. However, I am overrun with narrow bucks, most of which would never hit 13 inches.

I’m curious what others have experienced. It’s bad enough that I haven’t really cared much about hunting our place the last two years. After running cameras for the first time this year, I have zero excitement about the upcoming season.

I’m in Wise County for what it’s worth.

seems to me, with AR laws, wider bucks are taken, leaving narrow, taller bucks... those bucks then breed and pass on their narrow genetics... resulting in more narrow bucks..

Sounds like your neighbors are thinning the buck herd, more than anything. When you get 1-2 mature bucks on 300-500 acres, and you split that 5-6 ways and get 1-2 hunters on each small property, you're probably lucky to see any buck deer. Would you say there is more hunting pressure now than when you started?

I know in Mills county they have worked well. We have more mature deer with larger racks than ever before. Now if we could just get the locals to reduce the doe population we'd be in better shape.

That’s exactly what I’m experiencing.

We used to have a pretty good deer herd. We still have numbers, but quality has diminished greatly. I do believe the largest part of my problem is the neighbors. Most of them are hunting for meat, so I understand completely why they take what they do. They also over hunt their properties, but that’s they’re right.

I had considered high-fencing, but now wonder if that would be a waste of time and money as the genetics have seemingly diminished greatly already. I know I could stock it, but that doesn’t interest me. Frankly, I prefer hunting low fence (I hunt high fence elsewhere) as it just suits me better.

Development is getting closer, so that will likely make my decision for me in the next several years.

The buck heard isn’t thin, it’s just diminished quality. Because of the pressure around us, a lot of animals get pushed onto our place. With 450 acres, I saw 6 mature bucks last year (4.5 years old or older) but none were very impressive. There was one exception, but I had him on camera once during the rut and am sure he was just passing through.

Problem is even the younger bucks are unimpressive.

One thing I do have going for me is the ratio seems pretty good. I was overrun with does 5-7 years ago but that’s gone down greatly since then.

This is what I am seeing. We had quite a few bucks that were legal, but we wanted to see them gain another year. However, we also have new neighbors and more hunters now than we had before. Many of those bucks disappeared in Nov/Dec, never to be seen again. Hunting pressure is killing our wide bucks, not AR's.

The AR rule in Eastland county has been spectacular, this is the best thing TPW has done for Eastland county hunters!

30 minutes north of College Station. Thank you ARs

Are you sure?

It’s always hunting pressure that takes animals. My perspective is that the hunting pressure was there all along, but AR’s forced it to target wider bucks, regardless of age. This resulted in smaller bucks getting to walk because they weren’t legal. However, young wide bucks were taken. Over 12 years, the inferior bucks have become common.

I am typically a fan of AR.

The genetic conversation is interesting though. Our ranch is a low fence low pressure ranch surrounded by med-high pressure ranches. In 2020, we identified 74 unique bucks. Of the mature age class (5+) every deer was a legal deer. Of the 3 and 4 year olds every deer was a legal deer. Of the 2 year olds, there was a only one legal deer, and of the 1year olds there was not a legal deer.

We have a 2-1 doe/buck ratio, so assuming that wide 2yr old was shot by a neighbor and the 2-3 widest 3 yr olds as well, holding the bred does/buck constant at 1 to 1, you are seeing under 2% of the genetic potential of the herd lost. Not to mention you don’t know what the genetics of the doe those wide deer are breeding with is. Given the fact that the single legal 2yr old is an outlier for width at that age and not representative of the herds genetics, I have a hard time believing it would have a significant Impact on the long term herd genetics. Not to mention width is only one aspect of a bucks score. I don’t think any of the widest 3yr old deer we have seen are the highest scoring of the herd.

Agree

One of the reasons I like to take does.

This is my experience as well and we are in Jack County.

I am not a fan of it in my part of Mills County, although I am in favor of it for other counties. We had better bucks prior to AR being passed. Too much pressure on one segment of the herd....13"+ bucks. None of the junk gets taken with the single buck tag allowed for 13+. It has been very frustrating. Just my two cents after owning for 13 years and intensively managing my place.

Low fence Coryell County.

Awesome deer!

TB, how much 'junk' are you seeing that is leftover? Does your part have heavy pressure? If you look through old copies of the Eagle, 30-40 years ago there were pics of kids with 4pt yearling bucks, sometimes multiple bucks of that size. Today, the pics are of kids with 10-12 pt deer with 17"+ spreads. As a youth in Mills county I can count on one hand the number of ten point bucks I saw in the wild. I didn't kill my first true 10pt until my 33rd year of hunting. Just this spring I found 4 sheds from different 10pt+ bucks that made it through the winter on our place.

We have a lot of leftover junk and a good percentage of mature deer that reach very old age. They are either less than 13” or just really undesirable. I’m lucky to watch some for many years. We’ve always had a lot of pressure and I know that has some effect. I see other parts of the county producing much better deer. Initially , I was excited for the AR’s having seeing first hand the good things it was doing statewide , but more importantly , neighboring Hamilton and Bosque counties. It was like someone flipped a switch on our deer herd. It’s been hard honestly, to watch the decline knowing how much effort we’ve put into management. I know what you’re saying about youth, the Eagle, etc. Again, I see other parts of the county benefiting from it as well.

For everyone claiming this is hurting their genetics, do you have any pictures of these "old, inferior deer?" Its been a blessing for East Texas, now we just need less 20 acre tracts with 15 people hunting it.

Not a fan of antler restrictions of any type put forth by the state. You have a tag and what you decide to hang the tag on should be up to you and nobody else. If you want a big buck, hunt for it and turn down anything you don't want. Your choice. If someone has limited time to hunt and wants meat for the freezer then the antlers aren't important to them and they should be able to take the buck they want. One person should not be able to dictate to another person that deer they should take. Now I will put a disclaimer that a landowner can do what ever they want on their property and can also require people hunting their land to do accordingly. My comments are directed at the guy that owns land and wants to simply take a buck or the guy hunting public land.

Just because some hunters want big antlers on the wall does not mean others do and they should not be restricted to please the other guy.

I will say the same for Stephens County at least where I am at. I have owned this place 41 years. The first 30 years the hunting sucked. Some does and few bucks. Over the last few years numbers of bucks and rack size has improved every year. I think I am lucky to have good neighbors and decent genetics. I seldom see 1 1/2 year old bucks that are not fork horns or better. I do understand why some would not care for AR especially if the genetics are bad.

Some great deer fellas

It made a huge difference in the western part of Goliad County where I used to own a place. The county WMA started way before I bought my place but I bought in 2012 and owned till this year. The deer herd in and around my place continued to improve. I had some deer that were borderline for a year or two then they all became legal...all of them were shot or died during the rut. The quality of bucks continued to improve even with a lot of hunting pressure to my south and NW. I was able to kill my biggest buck in the 9yrs I owned the place....I killed him last year in archery season.. I hunted another buck the year before that I watched for 3 yrs and he would have gone around 150 give or take a little. He was under 13" at 3, then at 4 and 5 was over 16.5"-17" inside. Any wide deer that I saw or had on cams was killed when they hit 4 or older on age. Some made it to 5 or 6. Width was not very common in that area. Most deer were narrow, tall tined with big brows. Some of the bigger deer were 8 pt frames. The AR's made a big difference in overall deer numbers. My area of the county had limited doe harvest, even in the WMA it was one doe per 200 acres for MLD permits. 2 does in archery was good but none of my neighbors were shooting many does at all. The buck doe ratio went from 1 buck to under 2 does the first year to less than 1 doe per buck the last 3 yrs. My area of the county was supposed to be at a deer to 17 according to WMA surveys...I was more like a deer to 7 acres. One year I saw on cams or in person 48 different bucks on 234 acres....all but 5 of them made it to the next season. Not all those bucks lived on my place but they used it at different times of the year. Some stayed for 2 or 3 yrs if they were new. I had an 900 acre open cattle pasture to my west....2 -125 acre smaller place to my NW, 346 acres to my north and then a man who bought several ranches to my south, so he accumulated over 3500 acres adjoining me. They hunted hard with family only and took a lot of bucks...but they took mainly 4 yr old or older bucks from what I could tell.
If you have a lot of smaller places around you, it may not be the AR's that are effecting your quality now. WAG on my part would say they are shooting way more deer today than years ago. More hunters on those smaller tracts.

Good write up STx

What county in East Texas are you talking about. East Texas covers a pretty long area. As for Harrison County, the part of the county I hunt has a lot of narrow but very tall genetics.
I see a whole lot of the comments about loving AR's are coming from the Western side of I-35 or South Texas.

It really does not matter where you are in the state, the 13" AR rules are the same. They were started for various reasons in the counties that have them. There are pockets in every county that have good deer that did not need AR's...but the rest of the county may have wanted or needed them. Some started local WMA that led to county wide WMA's. I was in a county that was a transitional habitat from Post Oak Savanahs to the northern parts of the county to Coastal Prairies in the south and east part to South Texas habitats in the west. The counties in "South Texas" that are in AR's are closer to San Antonio...those counties are mainly subdivided small acreage tracts now. I lived in Colorado County and the uproar when they went to AR's was huge. The locals were divided on their like or dislike of the AR's years ago before I lived there. I lived there from 2006 to 2012. By 2008 or so you could not find anyone who disliked the AR's in that county. Same in the adjoining counties.

Always educational STX.

I went to public meetings in both Houston and Nacogdoches counties before ARs were adopted. Contrary to what many might think, the vast majority in attendance were strongly in favor of them. I haven’t personally met anyone in either county that is not grateful they are in place.

I know a few are, but it’s not many.

I first started running cameras back when they were film (late 90’s) and have pictures for almost every year since.

Prior to 2009 (first year of AR in Wise County) 130 inch deer were common with an occasional “monster” in the 155-170 range (neighbor killed a 172 around 2004 and another killed one over 170 in 2018). The last buck I had on camera that would score over 140 was 5-7 years ago.

I’m not going to go to the trouble of digging through all those pics to show my proof as the point of this thread was to see if others had similar experiences. I assumed I was in the minority and based on the responses so far it appears that is the case.

Double edged sword.

Many deer have survived to achieve much better potential than they otherwise may have before this was implemented.

Many deer have also been allowed to breed inferior genetics as a result of this as well.

We knocked a lot of the latter issue out of the discussion several years ago via MLD. That was lost due to a disruption with wind turbine construction and it is slowly creeping back. I am hopeful we can convince the lease manager to get that back up and running before the tide turns.

We see much better antlers in Franklin County. Like the AR law.

I had a lease for a number of years in Erath County. The genetics were poor, most bucks seen were culls. After the AR's started, we started to see some quality bucks. I think the AR's made a positive difference. I am now on a lease in Mills County. We are not MLD. The ranch is overrun with doe, and deer in general. I saw numerous 8 point basket racks, last season. In this setting, I don't think the AR's are needed. I think the AR's help more in areas with high hunting pressure.

I do see better antlers in Colorado Co. than before, but also the knot-heads that need to be removed are still there as well, and will be with AR, so you can find those who are unhappy or dislike the ARs as they currently stand. Born there, still there.

So. . . The thing I've never really understood, is why
people worry so much about what other people admire
about a deer and what they use to kill it with

I have hunted the big thicket national park every year since it started,not so much now due to my slightly advanced age and sore knees,but my buddy and I still make two or three days every year in the big sandy unit in Polk county.now I am not any kind of expert but we’ve taken several good bucks over the years and for sure the the bucks have gotten better over the last 5 or 6 years,we’ve seen more mature deer with bigger heavier antlers than we’ve ever seen, and I’m convinced it’s due to the AR . I’m not a trophy hunter but it’s great to have the opportunity to take a good buck

Well, I AM SURE that there is more hunting pressure. Old neighbors to the South East sold property. They were not hunters, but new neighbors are. Neighbor to direct south is not a hunter, but now lets a family member hunt there. Neighbor to the north used to not hunt. Sold property and new owners put up a stand right on our fenceline. Not only are they hunters, but they are fenceline hunters.

The thing that bothers me on the AR reg is having to sit in the stand and tell a 10 year old he can't shoot a buck that would be a huge trophy for him and his first buck because he's not wide enough. Trying to get a kid hooked on hunting is hard enough nowadays, but when they make 3 or 4 hunts and have to watch nice bucks they can't shoot for their first deer, I don't blame them for not wanting to go back. Just wish there was at least an age exception.

I didnt really focus of reading all of this real close, but my 2cents.
Im pretty sure the reason AR was put in place was solely to keep younger bucks from getting killed. There was never any INTENT to help or harm the future genetics. The assumption(USUALLY correct) was that real narrow bucks were young. I think that GENERALLY counties were picked that were felt to not have hunters and lease groups in place with the proper management mindset to be able to manage the age structure otherwise. This lack of a management mindset may mostly be due to smaller landholdings where even if a hunter wants to manage for age, he simply doesnt cause he thinks his neighbor will kill what he doesnt. The painting on an entire county, or Region, with the same brush is partly helped with MLD for those that choose. Im not going to say that its a good idea or bad but I think that is the WHY of why it was done.
As an aside, when they started the program, I think they expected so much backlash, that they threw in the ability to kill a spike just to appease hunters.
In most of the State that is known to manage more for Trophies there isnt the need for AR because guys(as a rule) make kill decisions on age estimates and dont need other means. At least this is the thinking of the decision makers.
It seems that most(not all) agree that it has been a big help. The only thing I can suggest to those that dont like the rule is to try and hunt elsewhere. I dont mean that to sound bad and I know that may not be practical, but I think its just the only alternative.

Born and raised near your place, hunted Wise and Jack counties hard my entire life. My perception and experience has been the exact opposite. I see more quality deer now than ever before and see more big deer harvested.


Deer populations continue to rise as you referenced, it could be a carrying capacity problem. There are cattle and goats on nearby property limiting forage and neighborhoods being built.

My son got hooked on hunting hogs and small game before ever shooting a deer. If your trying to get a kid hooked on hunting by sitting in a stand for hours waiting on a deer many will lose interest especially under 10 yrs of age.

There SHOULD be an exception for young kids.
They should be able to shoot the first thing they see

Trophies and "good " deer are subject to individual
interpretation. A trophy and a "good " deer to many
is a big rack to mount and brag about and hang on
the office wall and post on farcebook.
A " good " deer to me is one that was too heavy to
move easily by myself and made me need more
freezer bags than I had on hand. Sometimes it can
mean one I could have nearly killed with my eyes closed

I have seen good improvements in the deer here in Jack county since AR’s. Last year, I saw more 18” inside spread deer than I did 13” ans under, I have watched it slowly work. I also have some land in Young County, ans the results have been similar, maybe not quite as good as Jack. I am out and about every day in the County, and see lots of deer. I saw some great prospects this morning.

Seriously wish they would let kids under 14 kill whatever they want to though,

They should be able to. Anything that walks.
From a white spotter with milk on its chin on
up to a full blown bullwinkle

I don't know the real data before and after AR. P&W should release as much info as possible. For me, as I remember before AR all bucks that had even a small rack got killed. Does were also over harvested...leaving a small herd. We have a high density of hunters causing a shortage of does. We had to fight to get P&W to cut down on permits. They did and the results now are we have a deer density of about 8 and a ratio of 1.3. To me this is great numbers, however we also are getting too many bucks with narrow racks, young and old. We are also taking bucks with nice racks and great weights. We need to be able to legally remove some of the narrow racks. Small acreage leases can not manage..unless all get together and agree on a plan. Still almost impossible.

Food for thought... in 2004 and 2018 we had flooding in my area. Good chance these outliers can be explained.

I think the increase in number of sub 13 inch deer spottings is just because for once they exist and are not shot before the finish nursing on their momma. My brother and I each bought small tracts to live on in an AR county. Many people hunt in the area. Ive gotten pictures of deer in the 150's and my brothers neighbor has shot some well into the 160's. With the land segmentation and hunting pressure I dont think those deer would ever have a chance of getting where they were without AR's. They keep people from killing all the deer. I do not buy into the belief that the AR's are breeding only narrow rack deer.

Hunted in a few counties north and west of college station when I was in college and from everyone I talked to AR's were not welcomed at first but really made a difference.

X2 on what sapper said. I dont personally think kids are too concerned with what they shoot. Shoot a spike, shoot a doe, they will not care. Does are available to shoot in youth season in my AR county.

Quite often I find myself agreeing with RedChevy.

I read your post after I made mine. I could have said the same about yours

A kid should also be able to keep 1 redfish under 20" on any given day. Same principle. Fish all day catching nothing or undersized fish, then hook one 18-19"er - kid should be able to take that one home for dinner. That fish was legal in Texas for most of time, and is legal in many states today anyway. But I digress...

The OP's post is not about what the effect of AR's are having where he is hunting, but more about what happens when you have numerous small acreage tracts surrounding you, and everyone is filling tags.
A deer reaches 13" and it is shot, and there is no older age groups older than 3 years old.

Yep, and if it was anything like where I grew up, segmented land with many people hunting on smaller acreage and no doe harvest allowed, you could drive past an open field and see 50 deer and not a buck in the lot.

Agree with others - it does not seem to me that the restriction has anything to do with genetics, but simply a reasonable method to allow young bucks to mature to a point they at least approach their potential. Also, the longer a buck survives, the wiser he becomes - avoiding feeders during daylight, laying low when there is a lot of unusual activity, etc. That and a little luck may allow a good buck to survive several more years before opportunity knocks.

In my area of Brown County, even though we've only owned for 6 years, there has been an improvement in mature bucks that I see now, as opposed to when we first purchased. Some of this could be environment as we were just coming out of the drought in 2015, but the doe numbers have remained fairly consistent while the mature buck numbers have improved.

Problem is, how do you know who pulled the trigger?

How do you know who pulls the trigger now?

Don't.

Not a fan of the Youth Weekend either..

The reason my son is able to sit in a stand for hours is because he is hooked on hunting from hunting small game, hogs, and such. He's shot doe and hogs, now it's time for a buck. We can hunt all year without seeing a spike. Anyway, I'm just on the side that any kid should be able to shoot a first buck, regardless. But, that's really the only problem I have with the restrictions. I wouldn't shoot a buck under 13 without the reg in place. It's all about the kiddos for me.

AR’s can be a hard thing. There are a lot of factors that play into their success and failure. Being on a small property with even smaller properties around you with owners that want to shoot more deer per acre than their land will support doesn’t help. Definitely get the frustration of trying to get sons and daughters out in the woods and excited about being there.
We are fortunate in our situation and they seem to be working well for us, but like I said we’re blessed with most of the neighbors we have and we put a lot of work into what we have.

The ARs are not the primary reason…small farms and their owners/hunters are. I’ve been on a lease in San Angelo and it was outstanding for the first year, second year the land on the backside and the land across the highway added hunter…by the end of the second year there was nothing left worth shooting and we were not in an AR county. Your blaming ARs when the reality it’s tge hunters around you that aren’t allowing the bucks to mature.

Try deer hunting and taking your son when you might see 2-3 deer, does a year! That’s the way it was before ARs…I hunted public land for more than 15 years and you were lucky to see a deer much less a buck. Yes, I understand the frustration and yes, there are challenges with ARs but explain to me what would work better. Tags do not work! A landowner who owns 50 acres allows his children and grandchildren to come deer hunt. 4 children and 8 grandchildren and everyone has 1 buck and 1 doe…they all idea the law and kill a buck and doe…how long do you think there will be deer to hunt on his 50 acres and on the land around him?

Kenny, I saw this post a few days ago and waited to reply

Im in Cottondale, raised here

If I recall, your place is near the plateaus

They are working, AR’s work proof is in the pudding

My guess is you have “bad” neighbors

And as many people are moving here, it’s likely

In the past 5 years I’ve saw more 150 class bucks than I ever have in 40 years on this earth

When I say that I mean it.

ARs should have roll back no restrictions every six year

We have a youth weekend, bow season, rifle season etc

I wouldn’t be opposed at all to a under 13 weekend

There are exceptions to every rule no doubt

I’ve saw pics here.

I will say this, some people that aren’t family that I’d do anything for, have a hair trigger on bucks

I mean I just can’t trust them to take mature buck

If you don’t know what I am saying, maybe you’re fortunate

Keep AR’s