DEER DILEMMA

So, you’re out hunting and it’s 5 minutes before dark. You’re in a one buck county, 13” limit. You’re watching your feeder and a big buck comes out, outside the ears. You squeeze off a shot and see him bolt. You get down and look, no blood, you look more, no blood. You start circles trying to get a blood trail-nothing. Brush and grass are waist high.
Hour and a half later; you quit. You go back to camp, you can’t stand it, you and another hunter go back, more light, look another hour-nothing! The next morning, you’re at the same stand, it’s early but legal. Out comes that buck and you drop him like a sack of potatoes. You go to look at him and he’s good, 16” deer. As the sun is coming up and glistening on the grass; you see something!! Eighty yards out is you’re giant buck from the night before!!!
1. Did you violate the law?
2. Do you call the game warden?
3. Do you keep the first buck and trash the second?
What do you do?

Is this something that really happened or are you asking for a friend?

Let’s say asking?

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. No

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. No

A man with integrity..

So, could the game warden fine you a $1,000.00, take your deer and you end up with nothing?

How good is your hunting friend? Would he appreciate one of the bucks you took enough to use his one buck tag?

Accidents happen, and if it's truly an accident that you'll learn from and not repeat, I have a little more grace.

I sped yesterday to pass someone and didn't wind up in an accident, causing an accident, or mowing someone over -- I didn't call the police afterwards and ask for a ticket. If you didn't waste meat, you accounted for the buck with a tag, and you aren't going to repeat it then I would say the same thing.

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. No
4. Yes he could take your deer and fine you. He could
and most likely would take both bucks. Who's to say
that you did not shoot the little one first, then the big
one steps out and you shot him also.

Tag one or the other and one has to be left laying.

If your young son was with you, what would you do then and what are you going to teach him?

How are you going to explain to him why you hunted the next morning versus looking for the deer in the daylight?

Could have called for a tracking dog.

This is 2020 happens.

1. Did you violate the law? By the book, no.
2. Do you call the game warden? Not only no, but hell no.
3. Do you keep the first buck and trash the second? To keep it legal you better tag the second buck, no law broken if you make an attempt to recover and cant find it, but if you shoot one and leave it lay because you like a different one better that is against the law.
4. What do you do? You are allowed to keep deer heads you find on your property as far as I know. If it all happened to your... buddy... the way you say, the attempt was made to recover the deer and was unable to you are not required to burn your tag. So the second buck is legal and I would tag him. If it were me I would still collect the head.

If I were in that situation, I would absolutely tell my boy I messed up, why, and how. Contrary to what you're insinuating though, he would remember it because he wouldn't ever let me live it down

I agree with RedChevy. An honest attempt was done the prior night, that is legally all that is required and prior to shooting that 2nd buck, no knowledge was known the other buck was laying dead from night before. Anyone saying a law was violated obviously does not know the law. Feel free to ask a game warden if you think I'm wrong on this...

You do what you think you need to and keep it to yourself.

These are some gut check, moral inventory questions:

1: I don't think so. You legally shot what you believed to be a legal buck. You, and your friend, made a concerted effort to look for and retrieve that deer (that is what the law requires).
Should you have gone looking for that deer the next morning rather than hunt again? That's up to you. What was the weather like overnight? Was the meat going to be salvageable the next morning?

2: That's up to you. The GW may, or may not accept your version of events. They might cite you or give you a warning (the meat being salvageable the next morning might come into play).

3: Probably take whichever rack is better

Maybe you 'punish' yourself by only taking a doe next year because you already took next years buck.

Keep in mind, though you broke no laws whatsoever, your lease rules may be an entirely different situation regarding wounded deer, etc..

I would call the game warden to see what he/she wants you to do. I can see one of two things happening...

1. He tells you not to make the same mistake again. Doesn't seem likely.

2. He shows up and takes one of the two deer to give to some needy person and issues you a ticket for exceeding the bag limit, but only if you tagged both deer, which you should do. I'm thinking this would carry a lesser fine than exceeding the limit and also not tagging the deer.

So either way, if you call the game warden or not, I would definitely tag both deer.

So, you are saying that he can tags two bucks in a one buck county and is legal.

If the deer was only 80 yards away you didn’t look very hard, now if the same scenario happened to me I wouldn’t waste either deer, but I wouldn’t call a game warden either even if it was an honest mistake. Also you should’ve been looking in the morning instead of hunting.

I am saying he was within his right to shoot the 2nd buck and tag that one.

I guess it comes down to legal and moral issues and effort put into finding the first deer.

If the deer was believed to be a 195 class deer, what effort would have been put forth?

Bet the dog would have been called and no hunting the next morning.

One has the right to remain silent on the internet.

They seldom do though.

As for suggestions on how to further infringe on the law,... I don't think that's great advice either.

I think this is the correct answer almost. Tag the second buck and leave the first lay. No laws are broken. And if I was on a lease I wouldn't shoot a buck next year.

I did something similar years ago. We ate both deer. I couldn’t just waste a deer.

I agree.

The person who pays their dues at the range knows they will find their deer if they only keep searching for however long it takes to see where it fell. It's the ones who refuse to pay their dues who are willing to throw in the towel more quickly.

Also, if this were a lease, consider your 2021 buck tag already spent. Poor shooting and/or wasting meat should never be rewarded.

This

Interesting...

You stated "5 minutes before dark" can you please elaborate.
Was is 5 minutes before dark?
or 5 minutes before last legal shooting light?

Do you also call the police when you look down and realize you have been speeding?

To me, if the GW so happens to show up and gives your friend a ticket, then so be it. Then he should tell the judge his story, be honest, and take whatever comes. But I think it’s crazy for him to go track down a GW when it sounds like he gave a good search (at least one he was good with) but couldn’t find the first one. Personally I would have been out there looking the next morning and not hunting, but that’s just me.

I also agree with redchevy’s post above on tagging both deer.

So at legal sunset, you got 30 minutes. 5 minutes before that time ran out. And on the searching for the deer, hunt for him with everything you can muster. Do circle sweeps every 15’ out. 80 yards straight out in every direction and in tough brush is a challenge. I’ve seen pastures where one misplaced step in the dark puts someone in the hospital with a broken hip.

Great question to explore all kinds of legal and moral/ethical issues.

On the day that you shot the first buck you searched for 2.5 hours without finding blood, confirmation of a hit or the animal itself. That sounds like a reasonable attempt to me and probably fulfills any legal requirement. However, one might ask whether there wasn't a moral obligation for you to search a bit the next morning when you had good light to work with?

You took the shot "5 minutes before dark" which means that, if twilight lasts say 20-30 mins after sunset, then you took the shot within legal shooting hours. While the shot was legal one might question whether it is ethical to takes shots at unwounded game so late in the day for exactly the reason you experienced? i.e. light conditions at that time are not good for following up.

If the law defines circumstances under which a matter must be reported to a game warden, and your scenario fits the definition then I guess you are legally required to report it. The same as if there was a law requiring you to report yourself for going over the speed limit but I doubt such a law exists. However, there is also the view that it is [b](morally)[/b] the right thing to report it to the GW even if it's not legally required. Some suggest a moral alternative - self-regulation by forgoing next season's buck to compensate for taking two this season. All very interesting.

Lastly, on the law that says you have to leave the first deer behind. I understand the reason for that law. Similarly, in SA, if you knock over and kill a wild animal with your car you have to leave the carcass there. You may not take it. However, some people find it morally reprehensible to allow a perfectly good carcass to rot. My late dad grew up in abject poverty on an island in Greece after the second world war. Eventually he was shipped off to an uncle in South Africa at age 16 because there were more opportunities here. My dad was one of those who battled with wastage. It upset him deeply if something went to waste and I have seen it with many other people too. I think my dad would have been one of those who would have taken both deer so that they did not go to waste, and then shot one less the next season.

3. Do you keep the first buck and trash the second?
What do you do?

So Huntmaster what was done? Inquiring minds want to know.

Seems some folks are wondering why no effort was expended the next morning, me too..

Hunting ethics are always subjective to the person and the times.

That being said, sometimes the letter of the law is not the intent of the law. Even a person trying to do the right thing would be subject to game violations.

One case I personally saw was a city guy in a Dodge Challenger hit a deer on the highway. Just clipped it, and broke it's neck. Small spike... It was still alive and struggling to get up, head flopping about. Now the letter of the law would be to leave it, or call a game warden. But who knows how long it would take to get one out there? I promptly put the buck down. Another guy who was going home from work stopped and asked if I was going to take the deer. I told him I had no use for it. He said his family could really use the meat, and he just lived about a half mile from there, and would I wait until he went home and brought back a pickup to load the deer. He was driving a compact car. I told him I'd save him the trouble and put it in my pickup and follow him home.

I did so. His family was very much in need of the meat.

Did I break the law? Yep. Did I feel bad about it? Nope. Not for a second.

Finding a wounded animal at night without initially seeing evidence of a fatal hit is challenging for even the most seasoned trackers. Sunlight helps tremendously. Personally, I would not have been in the stand hunting the next morning. I would have been looking for the deer I shot at the evening before.

Let’s keep it at, “What would you do?” I will say, two different game wardens were called and presented with the same scenario. Both were taken back, long delays in what they would do, both did a lot of paused silence gaps on the phone. One leaned(it seemed in between his thinking) that he would rip you a new bunn hole; the other seemed more lenient, trying to figure out what he would do-kinda like he has some discretion in his job, but doesn’t want to lose it by making the wrong decision?
On the time of the shot; a great tidbit for new hunters:
The absolute hottest time to see a great buck “can” be the 30 minutes before sunrise to the 30 after sunset. Never ever leave your blind before that time. Watch your phone and “exactly” at sunset, count every minute. Time after time, after time, I have seen the dominant buck watch all the other deer, and because he’s smart, he won’t come in the field or to the feeder till the last 3 minutes.

If it was cold overnight, you could be breaking the law once you discovered the buck, under 'waste of game'.

On the time of the shot; a great tidbit for new hunters:
The absolute hottest time to see a great buck “can” be the 30 minutes before sunrise to the 30 after sunset. Never ever leave your blind before that time. Watch your phone and “exactly” at sunset, count every minute. Time after time, after time, I have seen the dominant buck watch all the other deer, and because he’s smart, he won’t come in the field or to the feeder till the last 3 minutes.


And then the deer runs off after being shot and you have to go find it in the dark, then find it the next day..

What would do? If I were a GW, I'd find a way to issue a ticket for someone without the means to find a dead deer within 80 yards of where it was hit after an hours long search. After talking about hunting the next AM, not searching and then only to indicate a 2nd "big buck" was taken, I am certainly thinkiing (i.e.: hoping) this was not a 1st hand experience. Who lets a deer rot? Who doesn't sight in their gun if they they think they may have missed?

And after all that, we get this advice

Leaving your blind before legal time expires and ethically shooting are two separate things. A suggestion here would be to not shoot after sundown. Give the animal 15 minutes to bleed out and maybe it can be found if it falls, say, 80 yards away.

Had this exact situation occur here in these parts (thick cedars) and the igmo hunter lost his privileges right then and there.

As others have mentioned, if it happened the way it was described no laws were broken to me... and that is IF it happened the way it was told. My moral compass points in a different direction though.

80 yards can be right there in an open field or it could be a near impossible find in tangled thorny brush. Sounds as if in the story it was right there.

Personally it would have to be a very cold night before i would consider eating the deer the next day. I left a frozen 3 pound vacuum packed package of cured bacon in my truck overnight once on a cool night. The next morning i found it cursed myself out in my head and aloud and put it in the fridge. That evening i cooked some of it and it was good. I froze some and ate the rest the next day. The stuff the next day was questionable. I thawed out the frozen stuff and the color had changed and it smelled when i cooked it. I didnt eat it. No way i believe vacuum packed cured bacon that is frozen is worse preserved than a wounded animal at body temp with guts in.

Tag the big one and kick the other in a bush.

I think this is an example of what is legal vs. what is ethical. From the story, sounds like the hunter is legal if he tags the 2nd buck. However, not finding a buck just 80 yards away means one of two things. The hunter didn't really put forth sufficient effort to find the deer, or the hunter needs to learn how to be a better tracker.

Just a few weeks ago, we had a guest hunter at the ranch. We came in the 1st night and he said that he shot a doe and searched for an hour. Stated that he found a blood trail, but that it petered out quickly and he lost the deer. He was done searching and said the deer was lost. OH HELL NO! We grabbed a few lights and went out there. I found the blood trail where it petered out, followed tracks and disturbed leaves and picked up the blood trail within 20-30 yards of where it was lost. It took all of 15 minutes to find that deer. I have had deer that would not start leaving a blood trail for 50 or 60 yards after being shot.

This is an interesting question. I've had this happen with inexperienced hunters on our ranch when we ended up finding deer #1 after they shot deer #2. But it's never been a legal issue. I've got some grace for them because everyone has to learn and these situations are tough.

I can't see how it benefits anyone to waste a deer. I would assume the hunter feels pretty badly about it. Best scenario is if someone else could tag it and take it and call it a year.

A friend let his FIL shoot a doe on his place a few years ago. He shot at the first one and it rand off... so "he missed" repeat one more time shot and it ran so he missed again. The third time the deer fell dead. When he went down to the feeder there was one dead deer under the feeder and two just inside the brush line. Luckily it was not an AR county lol

Confused on why AR applies if he was shooting does. If he can't tell the difference then he definitely shouldn't be out there

Just that in most AR counties you cant shoot does, I chose poor wording.

I can take five does in my AR county.

During general rifle season as an adult, not during doe days or without MLD permits etc., there are you happy now lol.

I can take does during rifle season as an adult in an AR county. Still lost

Some AR counties have specific doe days. For instance Navarro county used to be fri-sun after Thanksgiving. Just 3 days. It is now the first two weeks of general gun. Each county is different.

Ok lol im not sure why this has to have a presentation made of it. In my response I said myself i chose my wording poorly. In most AR counties as i understand it, and the one that I own property in, you can shoot does by mld permit, in archery only season, as a youth in youth season, during the few doe days over thanksgiving, and perhaps during muzleloader season. They are very restrictive on doe harvest in my opinion. Most counties i hunt in are not AR counties and i can fill all my tags with does on any day of any season by any legal means.

Just food for thought that a lot of folks dont follow up well after the shot.

Unfortunately, I have seen people in my day who would have no more remorse in letting a wounded deer get away than they would in losing a fish. In both cases, their thoughts would be little more than "it happens". Like fishing, they would have no problem shooting at deer until they finally got one on the ground.

When a hunter spends enough time at the range and knows his/her limitations and shooting capabilities, any shot they take carries a very high probability of being a lethal hit. It's why they'll spend as much time as needed to cover the area as many times as needed to find it. Simply put, the deer is on the ground somewhere nearby and they know it.

I don't know if some else mentioned it, but I think in TX no blood = no dogs? Tracking a wounded deer with dogs is ok. A wounded deer is one leaving a blood trail.

He's right you know. Funny how some folks hate dogs being in the woods until they need one to bale them out after making a poor shot.

You are correct that a lot of people don't follow up well. However, your AR understanding is flawed. Doe restrictions and buck restrictions are completely separate - antler restrictions have nothing to do with restrictions on does. The county you have land in happens to have both doe restrictions and AR. I hunt in Mills county and can take up to 5 does but only one 13"+ buck. Five of the seven counties immediately surrounding me are the same way, only one 13" buck but tag out on does. There are likely some counties that do not have antler restrictions but do have doe restrictions.

Dan, you’re grouping every hunter into Roy Rogers with Daniel Boone tracking ability; and that ain’t happening in Texas.

I posted about the dogs since the OP said that he didn't find any blood and someone suggested dogs. In TX you can't do that. My self imposed darkness limit is closer to 15 minutes after sunset because of the possibility of the situation described.

Agree with what Texas Dan said - if practiced and confident (and not trying "beyond ability" shots), when the shot is fired, there should be no question of scoring a hit. Not that I am the greatest shooter in the west, but I was fortunate to harvest a buck last weekend. He showed no initial signs of being hit, just turning and bolting into thick brush. I waited 30 minutes or so, and started looking for blood. There was very little, and what was on the ground took me time to find and petered out quickly, but I knew it was a good shot and he would be down - he was and about 100 yards away.

I know there are exceptions (I once shot at a buck and searched for an hour for any sign, and when finding none went back to the original location and realized I had shot through a strand of barbed wire around the feeder pen), but like others have said, if confident in ability, there should have been no question that the deer was down somewhere and the second buck should not have been targeted.

Not really, at least IMO. I've known and read comments from hunters who use the presence of blood as the almighty rule of thumb in determining if an extensive search is even necessary. It's no exaggeration to say some of these guys will walk up to a feeder and quickly decide not to search at all if they don't see any blood. I'm sure there are some who are reading this now who follow that approach. I still communicate with a guy today who admitted he never knew a deer that had been lethally hit could bolt and run as if it was a clear miss. How did he learn this? He learned it the night I helped him find a doe that he had shot earlier that evening. In fact, the only reason why we went back to look for it was because I told him never to judge a shot as a miss without first looking for the deer. Now honestly, I'm not referring to a young guy but a man close to retirement age. He later confided in me that he may have left a lot of deer in the woods that he never looked for.

But I do agree with you that it's a way of thinking that may be more common in Texas where hunters aren't that interested in venturing far from their feeder for whatever reason seems reasonable. Their only defense is the never had anyone that could teach them the ropes. I mean, all anyone really needs to learn how to deer hunt in Texas is how to put together a feeder and sit back and wait for something to show up.

If someone shoots at a deer in the last 5 minutes of light and can't find it in the dark, the very first thing they should be doing at first light is looking for it not sitting in a blind trying for another one. That was the biggest mistake and in my mind is a waste of game.

Agree with Red Chevy and DQ’s first take on page 1 but this is what it’s about. Exactly. Bottom line you better have a friend close with a unused tag.

My deer I shot with my rifle this year did not bleed a single drop. Where I hunt is VERY VERY thick cactus and brush. Found him piled up 45 min after started looking less than 50 yards where I shot him. Had to have walked past him 3 times it’s so thick. I helped trail a 9 point last weekend that left good blood every 15 or so feet for about 30 yards and then stopped. We (6 of us) circled for 2 hours and found him the next morning just after daylight over 300 yards away. Shot was touch back it appeared. The hunter tagged it and called it good.

“There are written and unwritten laws. The written laws tell us what we can and cannot do while the unwritten laws tell us what we should and should not do.” T.D. Carroll, the Father of Texas Hunter Education
“ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching- even when doing the wrong thing is legal.” Aldo Leopold
"Good hunting ethics are not usually covered by written laws. Ethics are a personal code which dictates how we act. It is conduct that is morally right, safe, proper and fair." TPWD

Next time the opportunity comes in the last 5 minutes of legal shooting time ask yourself if you are certain you can reasonably make an accurate shot. Having made that shot now. Ask yourself If you can't find the animal in the dark are you reasonably certain you made a good shot? Are you certain it was not a gut shot that could have allowed the animal to push on a little farther without a blood trail? Are you reasonably certain the terrain is such that you would have easily seen it in the dark when you canvased the area? If you still did not find the deer in the dark does the answer to those questions lead to you believe it prudent to come back at first light to search in daylight when you could more easily see the tiniest blood droplets or an animal on the ground from farther away? Ask yourself is the right thing to do now to keep hunting the next morning and shoot another deer first before making that search? Only you know your shot, how the animal reacted, etc. and your answers.

Having made your decisions up to then, shooting a 2nd buck, and finding the 1st buck, it is really more of an ethical issue than a legal one. Can you live with leaving it on the ground to waste, or to avoid a GW encounter, to avoid Deer camp embarrassment. Can you live with only retrieving the antlers and would it be right to hang them on the wall now? How will your buddy see you if you waste the animal? Would it be better to retrieve the extra deer, dress it out so it does not go to waste, and risk a gw check? Would calling the GW and pleading your case to clear you mind be better for you? Would asking or accepting a friend's offer of illegally but unenforceable, to tag your extra deer with his tag to keep you out of trouble or somehow justly the kill be ok to you? How will your friend see this, and will you reimburse your friend for his expenses now that his hunt or season is over? Could any of these decisions put your friendship or lease membership in jeopardy? And so on.

There are no right or wrong answers once the initial mistake has been made. Only your personal code as you make your own choices going forward. Such is life.

Agreed. It takes a greater sportsman to make the decision not to pull the trigger.

Hunting involves a lot more than just pulling the trigger!

the mistake was asking on here

Many good responses, in the end, some are strictly governed by their own code of conduct. But, I think there are many, many, silent hunters that would take that massive first buck and chop up buck two. Anyway or anyhow, it would puzzle the guy.

I would love to see these two bucks, please post pics

I'd still be looking for buck #1 the next morning and also confirming my gun was still zero before hunting again.

"Many good responses, in the end, some are strictly governed by their own code of conduct. But, I think there are many, many, silent hunters that would take that massive first buck and chop up buck two. Anyway or anyhow, it would puzzle the guy."


There must be a lot of sad silent hunters according to you. Sure glad I do not hunt in your group.

If ya'll hunted on my property, ya'll would be gone.

Our county 2 does 2 buck 1 13" and 1 spike.