Spikes/ crab claws/ drop tines/ etc, etc.....

In another post there has been a discussion on weather a buck pictured is the one from the past years. Up until this year the buck has expressed the crab claw gene.

I would like to get some opinions on this issue. I do believe that the environment can effect the EXPRESSED genetic potential.
Is there or has there been "enough" of a change in the environment to change an animals genetic potential? I'm assuming its a traditional low fence, all has remained the same. Except for the weather????
In my opinion expressing the crab claw gene would be due to that animal reaching its potential. It's at its max!!!! Without it would be a reduction in growth, right?? We may not want the crab claw but to say that a deer has reached its full potential due to it not being there is questionable.

That deer still has a "crab claw" IMO, it is just bigger this year. There is nothing to say that a "crab claw" will always be a small point. These trait is very prevalent where I hunt and we have seen them in wet and dry conditions alike.

I am not sure I understand that by expressing the crab claw gene, the animal has reached its max potential though. The crab claw on that particular deer is its G4. It still has a G4, that is larger than what it has shown in previous years, growing to a point that some no longer call it a crab claw. It hasn't reduced growth, it has increased it...so I would say it is closer to reaching its max potential than before...

You can have "crabclaw" G3's, G4's,etc. They still are G3's, G4's,etc. They just may lean forward and/or get longer. Not all bucks get better with age due to genetics or nutrition. Crabclaw is a term that varies in definition from region to region or even deer to deer in some cases. Not all crabclaws get better or even stay a crabclaw in some cases.

But most that show the crab claw genetic are going to have a crab claw, I won't say there aren't exceptions, but I wouldn't say they are very prevalent.

I wouldn;t worry about a crab claw..just extra inches and opportunity for more frame. Last one I shot had a crab claw the year before..it was about 2" IIRC, the following year that was 10" and was trying to have another one form that was 1".

A lot of people will call front tines that angle forward along the beam a crabclaw. It can be a 1" to 10" crabclaw over time. I have some old 35mm pics of an 8 pointer that scored 159" gross with crabclaw G3's that are just under 10"s long. The have the look of a crabclaw and angle forward. They start back very close to the G2 in the normal position of a G3. They just angle forward and always did. On the same ranch we had 5x5 genetics that the mainbeams looked like the buck ran into a wall in velvet. The turned inward at the G3 and MB tips would be very close together. The G4's had a crabclaw look. Some got to be 5" long crabclaw G4s and laid along the beam.

I think some bucks get more of a "lobster claw" over time when they started out with a "crabclaw"

I remember one being that young buck that was a stud of a yearling

I probably have some year to year of crabclaw bucks if I took the time to look thru all my pics.

The big 8 I obsessed over grew his first one (to my knowledge over a 4yr period) one at 9+yo.

I know I do. Just because the points lay forward, I don't call them crab claws. Crab claws start out toward the end of the main beam and there isn't room for them to get much longer.

I know you have pics of this one, last I remember he was a giant 3yo typical with those flat lying 4s or 5s.

Yes they can if the move back on the mainbeam. It is very common look on a lot of Hill Country ranches to see 2-3 yr weak crabclawed 8 points with very short G3 claws. Then when they get to be 6-7 yrs old some will have 5" or longer crabclaws. The G3 is still the crabclaw it just moved back on the beam and got longer. It might still angle or look like a crabclaw only longer.

Didn't see either of these turning into much...

6-7 years old in the Hill country is pretty old...

This buck? At 1 then 2


Or this buck at 3?

The ranch I managed we took most bucks at 6, 7 or 8 with 7 being the preferred year. If the 8 point was 130's or so at 5 and had width/browtines/tine length we kept them. Those deer sometimes did not peak till 7 or older for some reason. Had several bucks we killed that were only an 8 at 4 or even 5 turn into mainframe 5x5 or 5x6 at 5 or 6 then get better with age. TC were a blessing back then to get history on those bucks that we never saw a lot of when hunting.

Top one.

Who doesn't like crab legs?

The ones that we have aged and the biologist have aged didn't have much teeth left at 7 in our area. Guess we need to relearn how to age...and watch TC better

We don't see many make it to that age and the ones that do appear to be going downhill by then.

I prefer Lobster...

That is the difference in food plots and protein feeders

So protein is going to turn my crab claws into lobster claws?

I think this buck in 2012 was a 7 point. Rained less than 15" that year. Buck was never seen after this TC pic. One sorta crabclaw. This buck is mature and more of the angle along the mainbeam look. I would willing to guess he was a crabclawed looking 2-3 yr old in his younger years also IMO based off what I have seen other bucks that turned out like him looked like in the past.

Then went to a 6 point. Rained 26" this year but the buck did not show up till late August on TC.


This is the 6 point I am sure from last year. This year he is now an 8 point and no crabclaws.

No, cause ours grow lobster claws and I've still yet to get a pic of a deer at the protein feeder.

For some it can. Those weak 3's are either lack of nutrition or genetics or could even be both IMO. You are already seeing weak beam length. If you see G3's tops that lean forward past the mainbeam tips it is usually nutrition and/or age. But to many bucks are killed on some ranches at ages or 7 or better that are better deer than they were at 5 or 6. IME

That deer needs to die...protein is wasted on him.

It's called the dog days of Summer and prayers for rain not panning out.

I agree. Given the proper nutrition and diet, they can be better at 7 or better, but most wild deer do not make it to that age and not because of a hunter shooting them.

The MB's issues were last year. Not typical and still can't figure out a good explanation. One of the deer I posted above had 23.5" MB's and still had the short G3's. I believe, in our area, the crab claw is a genetic trait. Not to say that on dry years we won't have more than usual or that some won't grow a 6-8" claw, but the trait is there, even in the older bucks. The 10 my dad killed is a good example. Deer aged at 6.5 and I have a few years of pics prior. He made about a 10" jump between 5.5 and 6.5, but range conditions were not equivalent...but the "claws" didn't change much.

He will this year. I did not see him but 2 times last season and I did not think he was 13" inside from the short looks I had at him. As an 8 point this year he will get shot since he will make the AR's. Youth hunt is probably the best choice for him since he has been a regular at the house water and feeder since May.
But just to prove you wrong on the protein thing I might keep him another year or two.

You know, it's funny sometimes how folks talk about genetics and antler development. So many think that a particular deer's genes cause the antler to grow/look a certain way - like our genes determine how our nose or eyes look.

But it doesn't work that way, or breeding for antlers could be manipulated to produce the exact rack you wanted.

Rather it actually is more like our hair growth. Genes may determine the color of our hair and whether it is curly, or how curly - but even those things can be effected by diet, environmental factors, hormones, etc. For example, my hair when I was young was blond, then it turned light brown, then darker brown with lighter streaks, and now mostly grey. My hair was straight when I was young, then had tendency to get quite curly, and now is much straighter with a slight wave.

Similarly, a deer's antlers can add or substract points, stickers, drops, crab claws, etc. based upon deer's health, diet, hormone levels, and injury. The reason that racks generally look similar year to year, and follow a progression is because there isn't a dramatic shift in these factors from year to year. But if there is, then you can see a dramatic shift in antler pattern from one year to another - and then back. For example, a sudden DRAMATIC shift in diet may cause him to create a drop tine one year, that disappears the next - or changes to another point. An injury can also cause a shift. Also illness. I once had a breeder show me pics of a deer that developed a tumor and had a rack explosion from a typically 8 to a crazy looking 20pt and after being treated, dropped back to an 8 with a couple of stickers.

A deer's rack decline with age doesn't mean his genetics changed obviously, but with age the body becomes less efficient in processing nutrition and hormone levels drop. Just like us men aging.

So a deer that has typically has a crab claw could easily lose it one year because of environmental factors - good or bad. Now I know this example is suspect, but I will say it just to illustrate a point. Let's create a mythical factor called X, which is a combination of nutrition, genes, and environment. Typically this X factor is this deer is 54, and when the factor is between 40 and 60, the deer typically has a crab claw. When the factor suddenly jumps to 80, rather than a crab claw - he adds an extra point. When it gets to 100, he gets a drop tine. Then the next year he's at 85, and then drop disappears. Doesn't mean he is in "decline", because the following year he might be back at 100 and the drop reappears.

I know this is mythical example, but I only offer it to show a point. Again, as I said - generally you don't get dramatic shifts in deer's health, nutrition, and hormone balance so the EXPRESSION of his genetics is a progression and similar. But it DOES happen every once in a while.

IMHO, therefore, if you see a deer that you like and have been following - and shows up one year with a very unusual feature (for him or your herd) - take em - because there's no guarantee he will have that feature the following year. But that's just me. Saw a deer once that was an OK 8pt. At 4.5 he sported a drop. Passed thinking he would be even more awesome the next year. Never had that drop again. Had a deer last year with a funky rack with acorns on almost every point. This year - so far - no acorns at all.

The buck killed by my Dad was 7+(I called him 8) and LF with no protein. I have seen bucks and killed bucks on ranches that were LF then HF the first season that were ancient. The first year killed bucks that were 7+ years old. Some had not teeth. Killed bucks the next year the same way no teeth. Today with more people using TC and trying manage for older deer, bucks are getting older in a lot of areas. Some are passed up due to headgear when better bucks appear on TC. So those bucks get to be 7+ over time. The AR regs protect many to maturity and they die of old age also. The ranch I managed in the Hill Country there was a 6 point no brows the first year in 1990 when the HF went up that had a split ear. He was probably a 3-4 yr old. The next year he was a 5x5. When I left the ranch in 1996 he was still seen from time to time and still a 10 point and really looked old.

I understand your point John, but for the most part, the antlers and the shape, style, etc will remain consistent, no matter what the X factor is. Kickers, stickers and droptines will change, show up or disappear, but the frame itself isn't going to change dramatically without the help of an outside force.

Take the pics of the 6 stx posted. He is basing the year to year on a few characteristics, but mainly banking on the crooked brow tine. Many deer are tracked year to year based on oddities that set them apart.

There are certain traits that are prevalent in an area and in a herd. This trait can be traced from year to year on the same deer and in multiple deer. That tells me that it is a genetic trait within the herd.

So from 4.5 to 5.5 he grew brow tines and a G4 on each side? Amazing what a HF can do

Had more to do with protein feeders and a lot less mouths on the ranch than the HF. But the HF gave him age.

Browtine on the vast majority of bucks are the fingerprint. They do not change location, shape, etc much from year to year, but they do get longer with age. I started using the brows on bucks to verify them from year to year based off of picking all the sheds I could find. Then comparing the few that I had from one year to the next that I knew were the same bucks. The browtines showed a lot of the same characteristics from year to year just got bigger. I have also seen bucks with splits and/or kickers on G2s or G3s that would have them 1-2 yrs on one side then the next year they moved to the otherside and stayed there. Droptines can be genetic or in a lot cased injury related. Seen then grow every year once they started, move from one side to the other and some only grew them one year and never again. Back many years ago was at a seminar at Kerr WMA and they said in their research pens that had only had 2 bucks ever with droptines up to that date. Both were traced back to the doe side not the buckside of the genetics according to them.
I agree there are a lot of consistencies for most bucks from year to year. Then there is the odd ball buck that explodes or changes his look due to rainfall, injury or genetics that will leave you scratching your head trying to find him in the previous years pics if he was even around then.

Allowed control of mouth numbers too....which in turn boosted protein feeder performance.

That jump from a 6 point to 10 point was when the HF was finished in Feb and protein started the same time. Less mouths and getting out of 3 yr drought made more diffence the first year than the protein did.

How did the 6 survive the reduction?

STX, I think that is a very astute observation. After you said that, I thought back and realized you are right IME. Racks change, but brows are more consistent. In the examples I related, it was the brows that allowed us to determine it was the same deer. Food for thought. Thanks.

I'll relay another story - you judge for yourself how true it may be. I listen to a guy once tell me on his ranch/lease he had a decent herd, nothing special a few nice bucks / and genetics that were simple and ordinary. Then, all of a sudden, one year his bucks started growing all sorts of funky, messed up racks. The same the next year. He tried to figure out what was happening, and the only thing that changed was replacing two of his protien feeders - but still feeding same mix. Long story short - he said he determined the position of the feeder tubes was too high and the deer were banging their racks and damaging them. He lower the tubes and got rid of some "junk" attached to the feeders and the next year racks went back to normal. You judge for yourself, but the way he told it is sounded plausible. I dunno.

I would say it is plausible. Read a story about people shooting at stags with bird shot while they were growing to make them grow more points. Theory is based on the same principal.

There are some HF places that have done peculiar things to the pedestals that results in some non typical antlers too...

No bucks allowed to be killed till ratio was corrected and numbers reduced.

Ask jshouse about feeder tubes and deer antlers...

I wished I had taken pics thru the years of ranches I have been on and seen the variety of protein feeders. One south of Seguin I looked at bucks killed and sheds and a lot of the bucks had one antler with all the points and beam leaning sharply toward the other beam. Lopsided. We went to look at their feeders. All homemade out of 2x's and plywood in an old cattle creep style feeder. They had 4 of them. We drove to the first one and I immediately saw the problem. I said take me back to camp and we got an euro mount of a lopsided buck. We went back to the first feeder and I showed them how their design on the feeder was causing the lopsided growth. The feed trough only had about 6-8" of opening for the deer to try to get feed out of. The angle on the plywood on the hopper was angle outward also. So every buck rub one side of his rack when he tried to eat. They had these feeders for years, so long that the plywood laminated layers were worn thru in certain spots were deer ate. Every one of the feeders looked the same. When I laid the euro mount in the bunk and against the hopper you could match the antler damage to the worn spots. The larger the buck the more damage was noticed. Some even grew kickers at contact points or tried to but wore them down. Some antler traits are injury related and some are done for more than one year on feeders. Acorn points are more injury related from a head butt into another deer or a feeder. Crooked browtines that are bent forward or backwards will sometimes be from contacting the funnel on a protein feeder. I have seen bucks with very tall G2's bend them over at the top trying to eat out a protein feeder that was to short for them. It happens when they get spooked or another bucks comes up behind them to fast and they pop their heads up to quickly hitting the feeder. I was able to observe a lot of this in the early to mid 90's from setting up my own crude surveillance video systems at protein feeders. I had hours and hours of videos of deer at feeders in the last 2 hours of the evenings for about a 6 year period.

Did the brow tines grow back?

He did not have them the first year as a 6 point but had them every year after that. Another interesting thing about that ranch was that the first year quite a few deer were missing one or both browtines. Each year less and less of that showed on the bucks as all bucks started to have browtines. I think the last year(7th deer season) I was there we might have killed 4 or 5 bucks missing one browtine that were 2 or 3 yrs old.

Our place is like that. Many of our first year deer do not have em, but we have only killed a few 3yo or older that didn't. The ones we did kill, didn't have them for 3-4 years in a row though.

Had one buck that I did not see very often that would have been a very nice narrow tall tined 5x5 if he had browtines. One year he had one about 1/2" and the other one about 3/4" or bit more. I did not see him the next year. Then we finally was able to get a hunter on him when he was 7 yrs old. He grossed 138 as an 8 point and netted like 136 and had one small 1/2" brow. It was odd that we had many bucks with 6-8" browtines every year. A short browtined buck that was mature would be 3" and any that were shorter were very rare. I tried to cull those shorter ones out early on and left a lot long browtined wider 8's just for that reason. Watching those bucks thru the videos and then via TC (after '92) I learned a lot about what to look for in a buck. Got to where you could see what some bucks by their "look". The common genetic traits there were long G2 and G3 bucks with shorter G4s. Great browtines and a lot of split brows. Kicker or forked G2s were also common NT points. That ranch had some really nice big 8 points. Mainbeams, mass and spread were usually averaged around 92" on mature bucks taken as a trophy by the last year. A mature buck would field dress around 150 by that last year.

Where was that again?

Ours are pretty consistent on the brows around 3-5". Most are solid, but the long ones are rare. I really like the long bladed brow tines though. Had one a couple of years ago as a 2.5 and 3.5 and he disappeared. Despite what folks say, 10k acres isn't big enough to hold them Actually think he was pushed south. He lived at a location that two mature bucks will take over each year. Think when he got to 4.5, he couldn't beat them and was pushed.

Kendall County

We started feeding protein last year for the 1st time. I'm sure it helped the deer that I posted and is mentioned in this thread. We had a fairly wet winter last yr but our spring was pretty dry. Summer has been very good and it is pretty lush out there. As far as his traits and/or genetics I think what gives this deer away this year is his mb's and brow's. He still has some what of a crab claw but I think that his mb's have grown larger which takes away from it looking so clawy.

It's just another measurement better than one without it

The basic premise of the original post is flawed.

A bucks "genetic potential" never changes. He has the exact same genetic potential the day he is born till the day he dies.

His antler size and form after he's born are determined by his static genetics and changing nutrition, age, and mechanical influences.

Now. Start over.

Exactly.

Genetics don't say "you'll have a drop tine at 5yo and not at 6yo", or "you'll be a spike 1st year and an 8pt year three".

Genetics say "you're pedicels will be this size and shaped this way" and "you will have the ability to process nutrients into bone at this rate and in this way". And these are affected by health, age, and environment.

Durn crab claws...

whoa

You unscrew a rack from a barn and go for a walk in the woods?

LOL! his bones were scattered everywere around that spot when I found him.. it was in a flood zone that had been underwater for a good while so tree rats wernt able to get to it.

I agree statement was flawed. I added expressed genetic potential.

The question is not wether the environmental factors effect genetic potential.

Basically the question is will a buck loose it's crab claw (expressed) and go to something else ( non crab claw).
I know enough about genetics to understand stand heterozygous, homozygous, recessive, and dominance.
Has there been any research done on this?
Is the crab claw a dominant trait, or a recessive trait? How can a trait not be expressed from year to year?

Great.

Actually if you subscribe to the theory that antlers are "groomed/shaped" by deer using their hooves, the shape of the g3 or g4 could be due to the way he shapes them.

Virtually every buck that has a wound to his hind leg during antler growth will have a screwed up opposite side antler (so I can believe the shaping theory).

Based on that, crab claw could come and go if the deer for some reason changed his grooming habits.

interesting theory, never heard it. i cant even do my hair symmetrically without a mirror though.

170's crabclaws

I really like that bottom one for some reason.

that muley fork.....

i like #1, with those curved in tines

14" of NT

Wish I still had better pics. Its the one I showed up a day late on. Had 4.5 years years for of I could of killed him data

Is that east tx deer?


Redcoat?

Yes. LF also

I would of put 1k that was a north of the red deer.

Stud regardless

Lol yup they came in all colors and shapes there... Im sure waaaaaaaaaaaaay down his blood line that's were his grandpappy came from.. was one of the main restock locations a long time ago.

The native etx deer are red coated.

No, I believe it's the story associated with it.

This one actually had the whole red tint to his whole body.. pretty cool

Native as in 1920's restocking from ks

i like stories

His has a happy ending...somewhat

Thats the One I showed of a day late, do to work. Cuz stuck him out of my set up... I watched and passed him several times. I pee'd in his gas tank before I left



This is the muzzle loader/crunches deer

This ones some what of a crab claw.

Taliban hunting across the Red now?

Ya, for last 40years

I couldn't crop that one

Crab claw...



I would say this one is NOT a crab claw...

Native as in pre1900s.

Here goes a late crab claw.

That is just a baby lobster claw.

Wish it would've gone on the wall menu.

Genetic potential IS... The actual genetic material cannot be changed by the environment. His DNA is still his DNA.

The EXSPRESSION of his genes (his/her phenotype) can be greatly effected by the environment. You can starve the horns off a deer with the genes for a 200 incher. But there isn't enough protein in the world to make a deer that has the genes to be a 6 point be anything but a six point.

Has there been enough of a drought to effect the phenotype, oh heck yeah, and the fawn crop and body side, and when the does are cycling, and abortion rate.....

The deer on my lease have the crab claw gentics. I wish I had those forked g2 and g3's. Awesome deer!!!

Those are the kind, if I had a choice, to have on the lease.

Its funny to me how some folks see the crab claw as a negative, and some see as a positive.

Difference is in top end. I posted a deer earlier in this thread that was 5.5 and scored 126" with a 140" frame. We kill the 8 pointers that are 3.5 years old or older that show this trait and leave the 10 pointers that show this trait. We aren't trying to cull out the trait from the herd, just not trying to feed a deer that will never break 130". The 10 pointers will break that mark, and beyond, with the crab claw, so they stay.

I would venture a guess that on many of the ranches that those deer were taken, with the exception of the red coats, a crab claw 8 would be eliminated.

Many were but also 4.5yr old 9s and under were either way too.. only deer that really got a pass at 4.5 were full frame 10s+

Still alive

Hoover Vacuum Cleaner Company called and said they want their mascot back....

Doesn't look like a crab claw 8

His right our left is

Have other better pics of this one on the other PC, he has had those G4 and main beam charastics at 2, 3, and 4 years old. Going to do my best to put my hands on him this fall. Killed a 10 point 11 years ago that had the same but as a 5.5 year old scored 131, this one is a bit bigger. from the side you would think both are 8 point bucks since the G4 and main beam run just about parallel.

What kind of claw is this?

I aint seen many crab claws on this page just big bucks…

Shoot crab claws, spikes and missing brow tines as culls to improve the gentics of the herd.

So, would you "cull" the buck above? He's missing a brow tine.

Is he missing it or is it broke?

Good looking buck and good luck

We do the same, but don't count a crab clawed 10 as a crab claw

It broke?

I don't know. I suspect it either got broken or fell off for some reason.

Do you cull deer that don't have browtines...as in, never grew them?

Those without nrowtines make for good rattling antlers.

I never kill them with enough mass to make good ones, but they are great for saving thumbs...had to have my daughter help track this one

I can say I've never had a deer that didn't eventually grow them.

I have seen one...how long are they now?

Dunno, haven't sen him since '12 when I should've shot him with my bow. Given what the other deer have done with the rains, who knows what he's done if he's still kickin'. Still kind of ticked he grew them.

Would have made good rattlin' horns

Pretty good frame on him.

Wife would have requested her pet go on the wall.

I would think so.

She felt sorry for him a a yearling & 2yo...crows would hang up on him on her feeder and run him off.