Antler restrictions are the best

Since the AR laws went into effect I have seen a huge difference in the quality of deer around east Texas. How do all of y'all feel about ARs love em or hate?

No change witnessed.1 constant is 14-15" 2yos are in serious danger and that danger grows with the more points they put on.

I think my buddy who manages his mom's ranch of about 110 acres said it best:


I'd love to hate them, but end up hating to love them.

Man I can tell season is over already.

Yep

A 14-15 in 2 year old was in just as much if not more danger before. The age class of bucks has increased in my area. I also think the AR law made people start being more aware of trying to kill older deer which is also a major factor in the quality of deer going up.

this. But if we can get more bucks to 2.5, I think we can get more to 3.5 and up than before the restrictions. I am in favor of AR.

I think cheap availability of game cams is helping the most. You tend to not shoot the young bucks when something nice keeps showing up just after dark.

I am way south of your area but still have AR's. My first year with them and will say this about them. This area when I was growing up had low deer density. Surveys done by county wide coop showed them to be at a deer to 17 acres give or take a bit by area. I was not seeing many deer in summer months till Nov. It was very dry again this year with a timely rain or two. By late Dec I was seeing as many as 30 deer per sit. I would put the deer density in my area at a deer to 10 acres or less. AR's have worked great for protecting the deer herd. Buck to doe ratio on county survey was supposed to be 1 to 2.75. I was seeing 1-1.88 on my place. The age structure was pretty good also with 9 bucks seen 4 or older. The major issue is that in my area of the county there are no doe days and you can only get one doe permit for every 200 acres if you are in the Coop. Deer numbers are way to high for the habit and the 2 yr drought with no way to control the growth trend at this point. The AR's did what they wanted but it is going to be at a price long term if something does not change.

Game cameras are helping out they also give hunters a lot of practice on aging deer on the hoof.

I can honestly say that I did not have a buck that I saw on a TC that I could not have killed during the daytime. There was one buck that I did not see but was seen by my cousin. I do have TC pics of him from last week. I think at last count I had 24 different bucks seen during this season.

They heled you figure out you were looking at 2 bucks instead of 1...


I had quite a few on TC that I haven't seen in years. I'm on to the hoof rot buck's game now and should he live he'll get shot next yr.

Worst season ever on my East Texas lease. One deer killed all season on the entire lease. It was a doe.

You've gotta just think your place is terrible, Curly.

We just finished year 4 and I'm not sure what to think. I guess I don't know what TPWD's goal might be. I am seeing more mature bucks, but antler quality seems down overall. We've never really had any trophies, but maybe the occasional buck in the 150-160 range, with many in the 120-130 range. I saw one buck all year (on camera) that would go over 150 and he was actually pretty young. I saw a couple that were mature and would break 120. However, mostly I saw bucks with poor genetics, including several mature bucks that wouldn't make AR's.

It's definitely going to change the herd, but I don't think we'll truly know how much for 10-15 years. I'm still not convinced the change will be positive.

As for total deer numbers, they are definitely up and rising around me.

Worst year ever for hunting period. Wife finally harvested doe on second to last day of Doe/Spike Season. First ones we had come in all year. This is the fifth year now that i have not seen a legal buck. Guess what I think of AR's

I tend to agree with both of these statements!

Did kill a 8pt this year that was 14in inside spread but after 5yrs maybe 6? the number of bucks seen is down and the does have really gone down. As far as im concerned AR sucks! Done nothing but lower the overall numbers of deer and no upswing of big bucks whatsoever. After all the years of AR you would think if the big bucks were gonna happen it would have by now.

They've massively improved things on both properties I've owned in 2 counties. Had an 80s-something lady (lived in the same house her whole life) tell me the other day that "Hunting was never very good around here, but ever since that antler rule, it's been much better." the other day.

so your saying they wern't in danger before AR's???

not every property is going to be a good deer hunting property.

People have a hard time facing facts, but the fact is deer hunting is just gonna be chitty on some properties.

we had our worst year ever ourselves....no AR's to blame there

the hunt county bucks are better than ever around me, but a 4 day doe season is like tinkling in a bucket. i talked with the biologist here about a co-op and doe permits and he said same thing STX said, with the amount of land i could get involved we were looking at 1-2 permits.

I'm on record as in favor of them. They have helped my area tremendously.

Key word being constant.

Before ARs EVERY buck was in danger

I think overall it has been beneficial but has some downfalls.We have several ugly culls we've been watching on camera for 3-4 years and they are still at best 6"-8" wide, in my opinion will never make 13", and we cant shoot them. They continue to breed..I think the AR restrictions are great just need a little fine tuning on the restrictions for the inferier bucks. As the legal mature bucks are being taken, the inferier bucks are left to breed..

I don't see 5.5 year old bucks 6 inches wide

in general I share this concern. While AR has helped greatly, and solid mature bucks dominate my feed locatiobs, as soon as they start to rosm a scary amount of trash racks move in and pound my feed. This dynamic also tells me the chance of the trash breeding is low. Still concerns me and I plan to meet with our TPWD Biologist this spribg with all my pictures to ask what we can do on the trash.
Overall the quality and quantity are way up in our area due to AR.

We don't have rules for killing bucks in Mexico and things have been getting better with the years, the last decade has been a big improvement.

I think is more about informed hunters than the AR rules. With all the available information online hunters now can make a research and can get real information on how to improve their deer herd numbers, size or both.

Before the Internet all was just gossip and oldschool stuff. Very few would contact a professional for REAL information. Very few hunters knew or cared about deer ages 10 years ago, now who doesn't?

So any improvement I think it's more about more informed and educated hunters than AR rules.

I know from my experience in Young county that 5-6 years ago when I purchased my property and maybe a year before ARs, it used to sound like the 4th of July every Sat. and Sun. during season. Now, you are lucky to hear 2-3 shots daily. Although I'm not sure that I'm seeing more or better deer on camera, I at least perceptionally feel that it's working especially when I don't hear a war zone going on. I guess I don't have enough empirical evidence of hunting the county prior to ARs to differentiate. I do believe that the proliferation of game cameras and constant chatter on hunting shows about harvesting "mature" bucks has certainly helped too. IMO, one of the only things I find remotely helpful on the game hunting shows.

I feel there is still a large amount of folks that live in rural areas that shoot deer to eat, nothing more. Being law abiding citizens for the most part makes AR work.
Many of these people do not watch hunting shows or care about age, score, etc. But most will obey the law.

I don't need the rule to control me. I like wide tall antlers with lots of mass. Hope I see a buck with them someday.

Then there are some who will shoot and skin in the barn around the clock.

And you know this how?

Location, location, location....although its getting more expensive to take the gamble.

I see, I see, I see.....

Still trying to learn how to post pics. I think you should be able to see it by clicking on the link. Anyways this is a deer we had on camera for 3 years. Do you guys think this deer would ever make 13" ?

http://s1340.photobucket.com/albums/o731/npate36/?action=view&current=image_zps63b20fa2.jpg

Nope....but it's been decided those are the exception...like bucks that can clear a HF

On the rightside of the pic where the link is left click the image code so it will say "copied". Then paste the image code in your post. Hit "preview reply" in the reply box to check it.

I do not think that buck will ever make it.

Always add the IMAGE codes [img] before the link and [/img] after the link. Also remove the viewing code for hyperlinks. In this case it was the string: ?action=view&current=

Those exceptions should have been killed as spikes as they would have been behind a HF

Doing great things for our area....

Nope.
Those ought to be legal during a youth season in my opinion.

But that is too simple.

Doesn't matter...can't change the genetics of a herd on a LF place anyway, right?

And I agree with STX - that one will always be under 13"

Nope... That bucks Mama was crossbreed with a jack a lope!!!

It is Monday and I am feeling this thread is about to pick up since the official THF pot-stirrer is on-line so I am stocking up...

You feeling guilty?

Nah

I figured you were talking about RM or Orn...

You said that not me
I would never talk about a man you look up to like Orn...well heck you look up to everyone even RM barely

Thanks !

How many years in a row do you have pics of that buck? Post up some other years if you have them.

Wait - UIBA---

Haha.. it sure looks like it, we nicknamed him S***head.

I'm his hero, he always looks up to me

I have him for 3 for sure.. maybe 4, ill have to check on my computer at home. He's been hidious since day one. He always been very photogenic, he likes to pose for the camera.

Do you have any other deer that seem like they come from the same blood line, or is he more of an exception?

Would make a great post on all the years you have of that buck.

Unfortunately yes. several spikes and few deer that are no doubt his off springs.

Interesting. Why do I feel the posts on this thread are about to pick up

When you get the previous pics off your home computer, post some of these up too. Would like to see them....

and STX would love to see the spikes

Will do ,am i missing something ? Are spikes a sensitive subject with STX ?

I would say they are more sensitive to others. STX will kill them all...everyone doesn't always agree on killing them

I know there is alot of contraverse over taking spikes, haha i hope i dont get anyone too fired up but i believe in taking them. But thats part of the main reason i joined this forum to better educate myself on topics like this and to get others opinions because by all means i dont have all the right answers.

It wasn't always:

You have just made a new friend

There have been many threads discussing this topic and it never gets resolved. But the arguments get very interesting at times.

Texas has been crawling with deer for a vrey long time before ARs and that includes bucks..the only thing that might have been in danger was hunter's pride in the fact that as the years progressed, he might have a harder time taking a trophy buck.....although I don't think that would have ever an issue.

Seems in the last few years, bigger deer have been taken in East Texas. What is the reason for this? More management minded hunters, more people actually publishing the information, AR's, or...????

Nature?

You and I are a dying breed Curly

We are in our second year of the AR's and I really don't have an educated opinion. We have had two years back to back of extreme drought and still we are seeing quality bucks. The only real downside I've noticed is I see the younger kids losing interest in hunting after they shoot their 13" plus deer. Our deer numbers are up and our numbers killed are down. Not sure that's where we need to be headed.

Texas hasn't always been crawling with deer.

The ARs have made the population boom in a lot of areas

My son hunted all season almost every day. He would come home from school, change clothes, and go get in his stand. I have no idea how many hours he put in but he never did see a legal buck and didn't shoot anything. By the end of season he just gave up and said "what's the point?". Yeah, AR's are awesome!

was he seeing mature bucks that werent legal, or just bucks that werent legal YET?

may need to check his tactics.

He saw lots of deer, just nothing legal to shoot. I don't know how old the deer were and neither does he. He's 14 years old and before AR's went in place never had a problem killing a buck. Not everybody in this state has to kill a mature buck with huge antlers to be happy. Besides, after years of AR's where are all the monsters it creates? I think it's a shame that he can't go to my property that I bought and paid for and harvest a buck, any buck he wants to.

there's been big deer killed in ETX for as long as I can remember. Seems to be a drop-off when folks switched over to MLD, but as lease prices shot up and the leases were having to use the $ in their bank accounts to make up for not being able to get members the sizes tend to increase again. It's not a deer prob, ut's a hunter density prob...the folks who have been hunting places that didn't have that prob aren't going to see much difference.

he saw lots, i assume a few were doe/spike...what county? are does/spikes off limits?

This is the part about AR's that I don't agree with. I understand that there were parts of Texas that were notorious for people killing young deer and it was designed to help the overall herd, but the idea the State would restrict what you can and cannot do on your own land bothers me.

Kind of like the argument for/against HF's. Everyone preaches land owner's rights, but IMO, this isn't much different. They are telling you what you can and can't do on your property in regards to the animals.

I would have to check, but doubt my first buck would have made AR's and he is still displayed proudly on my wall. I would guess that many hunters first buck wouldn't have made it.

I know mine wasnt ! He was a basket rack 8pt maybe 10" wide, i didnt know they got much bigger than that at the time. I might have been 8yrs old. I've been hooked ever since. He is proudly displayed in my living room today.

when we hunted in east texas, I hunted for two years and never saw a buck. We wern't AR'd at the time but couldn't shoot does. So I never saw anything legal. Didn't stop me from wanting to hunt.

Its just another regulation.....just like you can drive over the speed limit or consume alcohol in certain public places. Its not a property or landowner issue its a state issue. by the same logic of "its my land I should be able to do such and such" there would be no need for seasons or bag limits either

So if I went out and killed a bunch of deer on a property I owned in July, that would be okay right? I mean, it is my land after all.

landowner rights....public can't access those deer anyway.

You are correct that it is just another regulation. However, the other ones you listed involve public safety and this one involves "trophy" hunters having a better chance of shooting a "trophy". I never said I should be able to do what I want on my land, I simply said that I was never unhappy with what I was allowed to do before AR's went in place. Before AR's my son could go behind the house and if he saw a buck he could shoot it or let it walk, it was up to him. Now even if he did see a legal deer he would be afraid to shoot it. He's 14, and it's a stupid rule that was born from greed.

So if they regulated the height of your fence, that would be okay, right? It is just another regulation...

I agree that there needs to be regulations, not arguing that. AR's aren't put in place for the property owner, they are put in place to benefit the neighbors. As would a regulation put in place that would limit or otherwise restrict the height of a fence.

Look at it this way...when someone talks about a neighbor on a small place shooting all the young bucks, folks say HF it. TPWD says, make a regulation that would limit the number of young bucks they can shoot, thus the AR's. What's the difference?

The private sector will trump TPW when it comes to management since it's property specific and not broadbrushed regulation.

ARs and Honest Abe.

2 of a kind.

I hear what you are saying. But look at it this way....he's fortunate that you own land in texas. In other states you have to draw a tag, even on private land. if you don't draw, your SOL. you don't even have the opportunity to go sit and try and shoot a deer.

AR's arn't perfect. but obviously enough people thought there was a problem that they got together and implemented them across half the state.

If you owned enough land in Colorado you could get several tags drawn in a year. Depending on the area you could actually make as much as $15-20K off one deer tag

ok...I can make $15-$20k off a deer hunt here.

you actually have to do something though and usually follow through....this is just to transfer a tag. The guy we use ended up making $180K (after advertising fees) off tags this year that he drew in the 5 units he has property in. Not too shabby of income for not having to do anything or provide anyone with animals.

Thats alot of $$$,

If that guy owns that much land why is he messing with the extra income?

Can't ever have enough of it is my guess.

Let me join in also

I don't know what's so funny.

Less people shooting bucks equals more deer.

Simple math

I agree txtrophy85

up the doe quota plus let spikes be an extra buck...
simple math to equal more deer?

Its that new math Curly!!!

Well I guess it might equal more trophy bucks and after all, isn't that what deer hunting has come to?

Isn't that the whole purpose of AR's?

You had pre-dark side opportunity

Sooooo just for fun what county's tossed tha biggest free range deer this year... if anyone has tha stats let's say the top ten... If that's possible

For those scored and turned in so far....
http://www.texasbiggameawards.org/pdfs/page/Unofficial%20Standings_1-24-2013.pdf
For some of the pics so far
http://www.texasbiggameawards.org/photoEntries.php

actually yes, it is called compensatory response.

Not all counties got an "upped doe quota" either.

Always going to be Houston Co & Trinity Co in the pines...just a matter of getting them reported

For public mgmt ya better get them during bow season

WOW! What deer hunting has turned into is amazing....odd how rabbit and squirrel hunting hasn't turned into this. Oh wait....who hunts those for the main purpose of wall decoration?

I always get a kick out of all the guys on here that say fewer young bucks killed with ar rules means more bucks! Thats b.s. in hopkins co. were before ar you could kill 1 buck all season and 2 does if you were a bowhunter. Now you can kill 2 bucks and 2 does in rifle season and you wonder why we dont see as many deer, buck or doe. And for all you guys that say just cause you have the tags doesnt mean you have to use em. Well i have used 1 tag in 3yrs on my property but im sure im the exception to that rule from all the shooting i hear opening day. AR is ok but if you want bigger horns they need to lower the bag limit. If you have tons of deer then that doesnt really apply. But hopkins co. bag limit needs to drop.

I always get a kick of of all the guys on here that don't understand that it's people that are the problem where ARs aren't working.

There are a very select few areas where they don't work. They've been overwhelmingly successful in areas where people will follow the rules.

I've asked you this before with no reply but here goes again. Would you please post up some pictures of all the monster bucks AR's have created on your place? Because I'm pretty sure I can link to a thread where you said there really aren't any good bucks on your place. But then again, that wasn't a thread where you just drop in to stir the pot.

the key word here is CAN. You CAN kill two bucks. dosen't mean you have too.

We can kill 5 deer a year per hunter in Zavala county. Dosen't mean we do every year.

That is a personal issue, not one that needs to be regulated by the state.....they can't be on every property at once and determine how many deer your should harvest.

yup. we are seeing bigger bucks in hunt county than we ever have and its because we dont feel like we HAVE to shoot a deer, specifically a buck, every year.

I thought it was because of AR's? You could have not shot a buck every year before AR's. Folks that wanted to grow big deer were doing so way before TP&W implemented ARs. I was growing big bucks before growing big bucks was cool.

here are a few from 45 acres in hunt county, AR county with 4 doe days during rifle season, houses all around it and moderate hunting pressure. they arent monsters but getting better every year. notice the age on these bucks...









and there have been much better bucks than these taken this year around here.

i dont think its BIG bucks that we are after necessarily, but MATURE bucks instead, and this is helping greatly. i have at least 5 bucks 4 years old or older that frequent my 45 acres, that was unheard of 10 years ago. well, frequentED, still waiting for them to show back up...grrr

jhouse those may not be "monsters" but they are great bucks.

They are monsters to many for sure.

I always get a kick out of all the guys here that believe in bigfoot, aliens and antler restrictions.

Things that only exist due to the use of false inaccurate or incomplete data.

they are the best group of bucks i have ever been able to hunt so they are monsters to me too lol, just didnt want someone poo pooing a 125" deer cuz they have shot bigger.

makes me feel good inside to know i amuse you buddy.

All this AR debating can be summed up pretty succinctly.

The overwhelming majority of people think they range from a good thing to a great thing. Support for them is strong overall.

Apparently in a few areas with either 1)a lower deer population to begin with or 2)a genetic propensity for very narrow racks some are convinced they are a bad thing.

So,if they are beneficial for the vast majority,does it make sense to throw them out? No. And it's not going to happen.

But those who hunt in the counties where the claim is they do such damage need to work with TPWD biologists and powers that be to try and get them eliminated or modified in those counties. It makes no sense to advocate eliminating ARs entirely just because they have a negative effect in a few specific areas.

Somehow after I read some threads I feel guilty about being a trophy hunter. No I don't kill many deer but if we get out of wack on numbers I encourage "almost insist" others which consists entirely of family in our party to kill more deer. My wife and I eat very little deer but we enjoy the outdoors and the trophy hunt. Rant over carry on.

yup even walker and leon too... i got a pics of a dozen or more that came outa Houston co. that wernt reported... best way to keep people from flooding the area imo

You just reported it, stand by for the flood.

They also believe in everything the government tells them!!!

I'm talking about the ones behind the 3 fences and the ones on the island

Glad y'all were able to find those 2 13" bucks this yr

Alot of folks figure if TPW say its ok to shoot 2 bucks and 2 does it must be ok. TPW is supposede to be the authority on it. As i said i have used 1 tag in 3 years because of the population crash and just like everyone else i cant tell my neighbors what to kill or not kill so to fix the population crash LESS dear need to die not more. I know that math is foreign to some here but thats what we need to get MORE bucks and does to make More deer. especially mature deer. Less is more. Also just cause AR works for you dont mean it works everywhere and harp because i want to make it better so i can see some bigger bucks to.

Oh one more thing. Nogales prarie i have contacted TPW by phone and mail and e.mail and never recieved one single reply. Have talked to the game biologist that showes up at the deer processer every year on opening weekend and he agrees with me on the bag limit being to high for hopkins co but says not much will happen on the laws.

I have not seen a population crash. I'm seeing more deer per sit than ever!

There's no point..those laws were going in and the town meetings were formalities. In our area, the biologist for the big timber co holders were in on the deal and the goal was to get ARs pushed through then slowly get their properties to go MLD to increase their lease prices and to assist TPW with data collection.

How many deer would you like to see on your property? 5? 10? 20? 30?

Ar's are the only thing that protects them from the overpopulation of maniacs we have that will shoot every GD buck they see. Imagine what great hunting we would have if we banned the self proclaimed "meat hunter" which really means I will shoot any buck I see up to and including a button buck right off the nipple. Thank God for ARs.

Was that the final buck tally from CB? I only got a doe!!!

Had to have been, season was over for y'all when I was told that number.

I have to disagree with your definition of "meat hunter"!!! I am a "meat hunter" and not a "trophy hunter" and definitely try to shoot only mature bucks not button bucks!!! Besides, mature animals have more meat on their bones!!!

FWIW seadog, the hgighest scoring buck taken next door this year was 144" 11 3/4" inside with a LW of 209.

11 3/4"? Should have lived a long life!!! Slightly illegal isn't it!!! Last year I passed 2 bucks like that last year!!!

not illegal if you put a permit on it

I will not go to the darkside!!! Seriously though, I'm going to be checking on a new lease friday morning!!!

[quote=Mr. Right]Ar's are the only thing that protects them from the overpopulation of maniacs we have that will shoot every GD buck they see. Imagine what great hunting we would have if we banned the self proclaimed "meat hunter" which really means I will shoot any buck I see up to and including a button buck right off the nipple. Thank God for ARs. [/quote

Good grief.... that's funny right there

Haha daaam

God didn't have a thing to do with ARs. in fact he doesn't like vanity. What is a "GD" buck anyhow? I think you'll find most AR haters never shot an illegal buck. Maybe just ones that "better than thou's" didn't want them shooting.

I'm assuming granddaddy buck...which were killed pre&post AR.

I'm pretty sure he didn't mean granddaddy when he said GD.

From my understanding ARs have never about creating bigger rack per se. They are all about increasing the average age of deer in the herd. That is because in the areas they were out in effect people were shooting too many young deer.

By improving the age structure, you will - strictly as a byproduct - get more mature deer who have TIME to produce bigger racks. It doesn't mean that it improves genetics, and was never meant to. But it does allow the genetics to express themselves and let the deer be all they can be.

Improving the AGE class of deer in the herd is the best way of increasing the overall health and numbers in the herd - period. In the areas where there are good genetics, you start seeing bigger deer and those folks love it. In area where the genetics just aren't there, they hate them because at most all they see are more inferior bucks and so they (rightly) believe that ARs don't work.

But TPWD - or anyone else - can't know what's what until ARs are put in place and the bucks are given a chance to show what they can become.

Anyway, that's my $0.02 worth of opinion.

It's easy for them to see, just look at MLD data submitted from those areas. They also want yearling spikes shot when the AR screams they don't think there's enough bucks.

Yup

Mr right in this case your mr wrong. Saw more bucks and better bucks before the new ar rules were in place. Again my area may be unique but when you go from 1 buck total and 2 does if you bowhunt to a 2buck and 2 does during gun season more deer are gonna get shot period! And all AR did was let people shoot a 13in 2yr old buck and a spike that who knows what potential it had and 2 does that might have had the next year crop of bucks. If TPW wanted bigger bucks just limit it to 1 buck 13in or greater and 1 doe for the meat hunters like me.

Having been reared in a different East Texas than exists now, and
learned to hunt deer when everyone hunted w/dogs, at nite, off roads ect. I cannot say..I have lived in the Hill Country for over 30 yrs where we have a lot of deer, and I cull shot South Texas for many years. I've had many who want to keep Spikes ect.
and Mary Nan "Pet" West was issued over 200 Doe Permits a yr. and wouldn't allow a doe to be killed..I used to watch them die in a drought going to what was left of the water tanks..we didn't
feed ...I also saw some Monster Bucks there..but she had 40,000
Acres...I personally think that most of the folks who do the Game
work are pretty good & knowledgeable, but have trade offs in every regulation or law..Don

I still think that if they just wanted to increase the age structure of bucks, just lower the bag limits!!! In Tyler County, the bag limit was 2-bucks and 2-does prior to AR's so all they had to do to save the younger bucks, just lower the limits to accomplish the same!!! I'm no biologist or have a whole bunch of letters after my name but it seems to me that if you kill off the does and let the bucks die of old age, your herd is in trouble!!!

One of the things about a 2-buck limit, is that some hunters would kill the first buck to come out and hold back the other tag for a better buck!!! Lowering the limit to one would make those same hunters hold out for better bucks!!!

I hear what your saying seadog but wasnt most of the AR counties a one buck one doe county years back ? maybe 10 yrs ago ? i might be inaccurate here..

I know some of the Counties were but that only goes to prove that a "blanket rule" will not work everywhere!!! It should be determined by County or at least by area,( piney woods, coastal, etc...)!!!

i agree with no blanket rule.. i think it should definately be catagorized differently

Down "yonder", you can't shoot what you can't see, doesn't matter if they gave you 4 bucks. Why you think they didn't have to restock it

Before ARs, at least you could kill the buck of your choice without someone else saying it is wrong. My first buck (a long time ago) was a little five pointer but he was a true trophy to me and his antlers are still on my wall. Not everyone is, or wants to be, a trophy only hunter. A friend of mine has had a lease for fifteen years and because of narrow antler genetics, they cannot shoot any bucks thanks to AR rules. They see a lot of very old mature bucks but none of them are legal and it is not going to change. They rarely ever see a buck wider than 13 inches, even at seven to ten years old. That is wrong.

I wonder how many deer are shot that don't meet the AR and are left for the coyotes? I would think that the law would be better having a point restriction. Say a deer would have to be a spike or have at least 6 or 8 points. Most people can count better than guess the width.

I agree with this case.

You let people shoot more they will shoot more

STILL HATE THEM!!!

I guess I can't really judge yet we haven't seen many deer at all in a couple of years the few bucks we do see are right at 13"... it's hard to pay money to hunt and then have to sit there and just look at them.

I'm not a "trophy" hunter so your average 12 to 13" buck is just fine for me.

I've had guys on seismograph crews tell me they find quite a few heads hanging in the woods that don't make AR.

Wonder how many were theirs? Please forgive me Lord I really did not mean to say.....

Actually I think they should just go with bag limits instead!!! Tyler County was a 2 buck/2 doe County prior to AR's and would "save" more younger bucks by lowering to 1 buck instead of AR's and yhere would be less chance of wasted meat left because of of not meeting restrictions!!!

A cpl...but you've gotta be good to kill one with a machete

Wow those seismic companies must be tough on their workers if they make them work 24 hrs a day and on weekends.....

They do...I saw a herd of about 40 of them with machetes thinning a 5000 acre pine plantation....that's dedication

I hope they don't let them loose around here.

Are there restrictions on them too?

Why is it that the only time I hear antler spread considered a valid means of aging deer is during an AR argument?

A buck with a 13" spread is not going to be a 1 1/2 year old and most are not even going to be 2 1/2 year olds. The purpose of ARs is to let really young bucks grow up a little. It's not about specifically aging a deer but it is valid for that purpose.

yea when I used to hunt east tx I know a different breed up there but they would shoot anything with horns and all be proud a 1.5 year old 5 point deer and they would come back and the whole camp used to congradulate them on the kill no managment program at all. if people would learn how to age deer correctly before they got to hunt then we would not need ar but most "hunters" not on this forum just shoot whatever walks out ive seen it and it sucks bc now you can have a 7 year old deer that is inside of the ears breeding all the does

I hear you 100%, but in much of those piney woods "deer season" seems to be a loosely defined legal concept. "Trespassing" seems to be subject to even less conservative interpretation. It's hard to get anyone committed to "best management practices" when the neighbors can't understand "trespassing" or "deer season" and it's likely that a 1.5 year old 5 point buck with a 15" spread will be killed a few hours after you leave if you let him walk.

In that sort of environment, I think AR do more harm than good. Since the people who would manage the herd can't cull a big-bodied, aggressive, asymmetrical 6 point with no G1s and a 10" spread and there's a big rush to kill young 8 pointers with wide racks - the wrong genes proliferate and the cycle never ends.

Not every hunter thinks a deer has to be mature to shoot. I have shot many a basket rack buck and was happy to have em. If you feel it has to be mature and have a big rack thats fine but i dont live for big antlers. I live for the hunt and the tender steaks if im sucsesfull in the hunt. We had many more deer to hunt before AR and the new deer limits and my daughter and dad hunted and took what was legal and came away happy every season. Not all hunters gotta have big antlers to be happy hunters. Have lived in n.e tx for over 35yrs and have never seen any poaching but not dumb enough to believe it doesnt happen.

Herein lies the problem!!! When you use bag limits, you have more deer than using some complicated restrictions blanket rule!!! I have seen less and less deer every year since AR's were implemented and we were a 2 buck/2 doe County prior to AR's!!! I've gone from seeing 10-15 deer a year to 3 does and 1 nubbin buck this year all in the span of 4 years!!! Aren't AR's wonderful!!!

So you were a 2 buck/2 doe county before ARs?
And you are a 2 buck/2 doe county after ARs?

And you think ARs are the problem? I'm not following....

I am thinking the landowners now after AR's have more guns per lease than before the AR's.

I am thinking some areas just are going through declines for any number of reasons and ARs are getting the blame.

In my area AR's have protected the deer herd to where there are not way to many.

I'm thinking less because of locals getting priced out. Would be suprise how many leases that used to be slap full w/ waiting lists are now sitting at 10-20 vacancies and begging someone to just join.

Might be true on some of the areas but I am guessing that some are having way to many guns on to small of a location for the amount of acreage. Those would be a problem when over killing of does or even bucks also if killing spikes.

To illustrate my statement above. ARs came in about the time I bought my east TX place 8 years ago. I think it is safe to say it had been severely over hunted by the prior occupants. I, on the other hand, started a food plot/feeding program and have taken precious few bucks off the property while harvesting my doe quota regularly. I have seen a vast improvement in all areas.

I believe ARs have helped tremendously but concede my own practices have probably played a large role too. So it's probably not all ARs that have caused my place to get better.

I simply think the AR haters might also think about the fact that ARs may not be the only factor in causing things to be worse on their places.

There are many factors and a lot of them are specific to each localized place or area.

maybe..but we're timberco country, they have acres to hunter requirements. And one of the best places to kill big deer in the area happened to be a lease with almost 300 members who would shoot anything with horns (and they got to kill 2 bucks)

I am betting a big difference is in habitat in those timberco areas also. To kill that many deer means they would have had to have higher deer numbers to start with which means better habitat to support more deer.

it's the acreage..you get 20K+ acres of riverbottom and back water, you end up getting into deer. They;re still coming off years of no doe harvest, but I can say it didn't take but 1 or 2 years to see those big doe herds shot up.

Must be nice to be able to kill does. Here you can't kill any in my area of the county without a MLD permit. To get that you have to join the WMA for the county. Then you only get one per 200 acres for this area. Survey data is way off in my area. Based off of what I was seeing on my blind counts the deer density is more like a deer to 2.5 acres based off my counts. WMA survey data shows a deer to 15-17 acres. I am sure I am at a deer to 10 acres or less for actual numbers. Something is going to have to give. This area is about 3 basic habitats. One is open large Live Oak cattle country that is kept shredded. One other is same type cattle country that is in various regrowth stages of mixed brushes/trees. The other is dense stand of Live Oak, Persimmons and/or Blackbrush. The really dense stands are to much canopy to allow sunlight down to the ground. Deer body sizes are showing to many deer now with smaller body weights and they are trending down by past data I can find on TWIMS. I spoke to my TPWD biologist yesterday about it and we are going to review any harvest data from the immediate area to see what can be done. Ratios are really good for LF areas with ranches of this size. My blind counts show 1.88 to 1, doe to buck.

so, no doe harvest..buck harvest and still managing 1.88:1. Here that would get you to 10:1 in a hurry, and it did, but folks still had bucks to shoot, every year.

I think the main reason for the growth of bucks numbers is due to limited and selective hunting pressure on some ranches close to me and the AR's. Seems to be a lot of bucks that are borderline. Talking to neighbors they all seem to talk of wider deer killed in the past(when there were less deer and more rain). Most of the wider deer I had this year were very short tined and I think passed over by more selective hunters looking for a better buck in the past. Out of all the bucks I did see this year (25 or so different ones) there were only 6 legal by spread width to kill. All the rest were under. Was one spike that could have been killed by neighbors also. SO the future looks good for bucks just the over-all growth is bad in the long run due to having to many deer competing for less forage in 2 very dry years back to back with a 3rd in the making.

you could have always moved on up to the tropical rainforest

And not be able to see the sunset? No way

I never have any probs seeing it

Well you have a place in the land of pipelines right now.

um..those are running N/S.

just climb a pine tree

trees aren't the problem, it's his trifocals

Always funny to skip from the original post to the last without reading anything in between...

you missed a lot of my youthful wisdom mixed in there.

Yes I do!!! I think that when you impose a 13" rule in an area where the genetics do not support it and people shoot the does and bucks survive, it ruins the health of herd!!! Now I don't have a "Dr" in front of my name with a bunch of letters behind but I seem to recall in biology that with mammals it takes a male and a female to procreate so if you kill off one sex and not the other, eventually your herd dies off!!!

so what do u think the buck/doe ratio is? u have more bucks than doe now because everyone can only shoot does? just trying to follow your logic.

I guess I'm just having a hard time swallowing that any area can go from a healthy buck:doe ratio (1 or 2 does per buck)to a negative doe:buck ratio (mostly bucks)-all because of ARs. Especially in east TX-where healthy buck:doe ratios on unmanaged land were/are virtually unheard of in the first place. Oh well.

In my part of east TX it has been a struggle to even get guys to shoot a doe period, yet they are wiping them out because they can't shoot a basket racked buck now? Do any harvest figures show the does being shot out despite the same bag limits?

I just think maybe other factors deserve looking at for your problems besides ARs. It's easy to praise ARs for all good things and blame them for all bad things- but life is rarely that simple.

You can shoot 2 does for meat and allow the younger bucks to grow older, however in an area where the genetics is high narrow racks,(less than 13"), then only does get killed and bucks survive!!! At the lease I was on this past year, the total kill was 15 deer,(3 bucks and 12 does), and last year it was around 30 deer,(7 bucks and 23 does), with the only difference is the timber company changed the rules for bucks to 14" or 13" and 120 B&C and we had 70 LAMPS tags for does!!! I might add that 2 years ago, the proportions for buck/doe were about the same!!!

Lets say you have 20 deer, (5 bucks and 15 does)!!! With AR's and the genetics only 1 of the bucks meets the requirements so you shoot 2 does for meat!!! Then you throw in environmental conditions,( disease, predators, etc), how long do you think there will be a healthy herd? I just think that it would have been for beneficial for the herd just to use bag limits instead of the blanket rules!!! I will also say that I believe that AR's may work in some areas but to say that work everywhere is ludicrous!!!

blaming AR's still doesnt make sense for your argument, or maybe its just that your argument doesnt make sense.

Believe what you want!!! I just see a distinct difference in the amount of deer I see every year from prior to AR's up to 4 years after implementation!!! AR's make work some places but not everywhere!!!

lol, why are you yelling, you're a foot from me.

long live AR's.

I don't quite understand what you're saying in your statement but I'm glad that AR's have helped your area!!! I just wished they had just lowered the bag limits for a couple of years in my County and that would accomplished the same thing!!!

sorry, fixed it.

Seadog if your scenario is true sounds like y'all need to lay off the does at least for a while- no matter what the bag limits are.

that is the root of all of this, you give some guys a tag and they are going to use it and it gets even worse if they have to pay for it.

i dont think i have ever heard this angle on AR's, and to preface this, i am not a big conspiracy theory guy or someone that thinks the government is watching us through our tv's, but are the AR's an attmept for the state to make more money?

we all know the reputation of states like iowa, kansas, illinois and see the thousands of hunters that flock to these states with hopes of a booner, is TPWD trying to increase hunting revenue simply by trying to grow bigger bucks statewide and making texas even more of a hunting destination for out of staters, putting more money in their pocket?

Not very familiar with the area Seadog is talking about but here is some of what I have seen happen. I have seen ranches that were over-run with does go on a killing program to keep numbers down. Then the hardest deer to find on those ranches was a doe. They still had them but the pressure was put on them to where they stayed away from hunters/blinds. Also as the buck to doe ratios tightened on these ranches the young bucks (AR protected now) kept chasing/pestering the doe so bad around feeders/plots they quit showing up during the rut phases (hunting season).

thats a better argument. the does are there just not seen as much, i can understand that, just couldnt understand how does were disappearing when harvest numbers were down across the board.

AR's have tightened buck to doe ratios in almost every area I would think. That was one of the main reasons for imposing the AR's. It has worked in most areas and not so well in a few. Things that are happening on ranches in AR areas today do not seem normal to the hunter due to the way the past hunting had changed the deer structure and habitats.

When the number of deer you see slowly dwindles to nothing and the only thing that changed was the implementation of AR's then of course that's what gets the blame, as it should. I think Texas should implement a law that does not allow anyone to marry ugly women or women with small racks. And it's not for the citizen to judge what "ugly" is, the government should tell you what will make you happy based off the popular opinion that everyone should have a trophy wife.

I don't think the law is meant for everyone to have a trophy wife-just that they have a chance to get past the puberty and zit-faced stage. Maybe that's why ARs are an east TX thang.

TPWD "Rack Survey" is in the early stages as we post here. It is either a "Typical(pretty) or Non-Typical(ugly)" form Regs will be a "blanket" or "bag" type to cover all areas.

That theory holds no water if you're talking about AR's. You are now allowed 2 yearling bucks instead of 1 before AR's.

The law states 2 bucks, no more than one greater than 13 inches. So I can bust a cap on 2 yearling spikes if I want to.

how you figure? maybe you need to read it again.....

You, like most don't even know how the law reads. Maybe YOU should read it.

settle down there partner, i aint the one out there shooting your spikes....STX, now thats a different story. see, all the spikes are getting shot therefore there are no deer left anywhere now, not even one. dang AR's.

I will admit this is my first year to hunt under AR regs. If that is the case then I was told wrong a couple of years ago.

I don't need to settle down, I'm perfectly calm. I actually get amusement from debating this subject with folks that are in support of a reg that they don't even know the extent of. We are implementing AR's to protect young bucks but if you want to you can shoot 2 yearling spikes and not shoot any mature bucks. Sounds like a plan to me! Isn't this a great plan? Instead of shooting one buck of our choice we now are allowed to shoot 2 yearlings if we want to in an effort to allow them to get older. Makes perfect sense!

Someone say kill 2 spikes?

you are right, i dont know the extent of it becuase all i have seen where i hunt are bigger and older deer since AR's started. i have read the TWPD regs several times having to prove to friends that they cant take 2 bucks over 13", just guess i never looked at it from the angle of wanting to shoot 2 spikes. we dont shoot spikes and we have no shortage of deer so i never even thought about trying to find a flaw with it.

Seadog and Bowslayer from reading your posts the problems you guys are having have little to do with ARs and alot to do with guys busting a cap on anything that moves.

JMO

I did hunt next door...so that is a possibility

And your drive by the place in a truck also.....

that's true

Where in my posts did I say what problems I'm having with them? The problem with the pro AR guys is that you think if it works well for you then it works well for everybody and if it's not working then it's something that the hunters are doing to screw things up. You like them, great. They work for you , great. Why is it so hard for you to comprehend that they are not good for some areas? When you decide to go into the MLD program what's the first thing that happens? They send a Biologist to survey your particular property to see what needs to be done to improve it. They don't say "well it's in Smith County so shoot this". Blanket restrictions do not work in all areas, period. And implementing them in the name of balancing the age structure is directly contradicting itself when you allow 2 yearling bucks to be shot in the same reg. You want to tell us what we're doing wrong, but the fact is you don't know what you're talking about because you have no idea where we hunt nor have you ever been on the property.

Well,I am confused. You say you have no problems with them and then set forth a bunch of problems you have with them. Maybe I just need more coffee.

I never said I have no problems with them. I asked you where in this thread I stated my problems with them and like always, you have no idea. So NP, what exactly are my problems with ARs? Don't hurt yourself trying to think logically.

Sorry, I just am not following. But I grew up in east TX and damn few of us rednecks got too excited about blasting a yearling-much less two of 'em. Yet you say it is a big issue now caused by ARs. Like I said, just sounds like too much blasting to me that has nothing to do with ARs-they're just blasting two spikes now apparently instead of two goathead 4/5/6s....

Again, you need to work on your reading comprehension. What I actually said was that it's stupid to implement a regulation that is supposed to allow more bucks to reach maturity and in the very same regulation allow the killing of 2 yearling bucks. As far as shooting "two goathead 4/5/6's" it never happened because before AR's it was a 1 buck County. So, which is better for getting more bucks to maturity? Shooting 1 4 point per season or shooting 2 yealing bucks per season? I'm not the brightest but I'm pretty sure shooting 2 yearlings is worse than shooting one if your goal is to allow more bucks to mature.

Well, sorry I'm too stupid for your taste but I still say that the actual shooting of two yearlings is the problem. Just sound like everybody wants to shoot everything where you are. If that were true everywhere then the herds would be negatively impacted everywhere-even under current bag limits.

The vast majority of folks in the areas Im familiar with don't max out the bag limit.

Good grief. Let me try to phrase this differently to see if you can get what I'm saying.

Would it be better to allow a person to shoot any 1 buck of their choice and be done or allow that same person to shoot 2 yearling bucks if they choose to? Most of the Counties that this affects are not know for high deer densities in the first place. So, lets take that County that pre-ARs was allowed 1 buck and 0 does during gun season and implement a "management plan" that allows hunters in that very same County to harvest 2 bucks and 2 does. Any you don't understand how AR's are affecting deer numbers? You're correct that the hunters have the option NOT to shoot what they are allowed to but why even allow it? I know lots of people that would have never shot a spike buck in the past that shoot every one they see now. Why? Because it's a FREEBY. You have one tag that can only be used on a spike and nothing else and a spike walks by guess what happens... BANG. In a County that already has low numbers of deer you can wipe out most of an age class of bucks by doing that.

'genetics is high narrow racks,(less than 13")'

East Texas bucks, right - one of the results of hunters hunting East Texas shooting any buck regardless of its antler rack or age. The reason why AR's was implemented due to the majority of harvested bucks surveyed/checked at cold-storage lockers, mandatory check stations, processing plants, deer camp checks and voluntary checks, age were 1.5-2.5 yr old bucks and many having a good chance of being wide-antlered bucks with a few more years of age.

Nope, not any one regulation is 100% favorable with all hunters, never has been and more than likely never will be (as shown here), but it is a good step in the right direction to allow younger bucks to gain some age in having a wider legal rack in an AR county.

It doesn't have to be favorable to all hunters but it should not contradict itself. It's not about balancing the age structure or herd health. It's about growing larger antlers and always has been. Larger antlers= more revenue for the state. If it was about age structure and herd health there would not be legal tags for shooting 2 yearling bucks.

Kyotee1, I know you are a GW so give me your opinion on this. In a County with low deer numbers to start with, how is allowing a person to shoot 4 deer versus the previous quota of 1 buck helping anything?

I will say that Seadog's area has the deer numbers....it's just so dang thick you can't see them. And because it's timber company land, you can't do anything about thinning the mess to give yourself good visibility. Perhaps if the head foresters for the region were on that lease (instead of the one next to it...reason #1324 to join the dark side) then they'd have the dozers and equipment brough in to clear out nice foodplots when it came time to select cut, third row or clearcut to establish big pretty areas for the deer to prance around (and get shot). Now that's not saying 13"+ deer are there in abundance because that's not the case, but there sure are a lot of old, narrow, trashy looky deer running around..even pre-AR.

Who or when did I say I was a GW?

Never was about revenue for the state and that was not even anywhere in the thought process for implementation of the restriction. The only bucks that are allowed to be taken in any AR county are those which have an inside spread of 13" or greater between the main beams and the other must have an unbranched antler on one side. Only 1 buck w/13" or greater inside spread out of your 2 legal buck bag limit for the county you hunt in. Very few if any at all yearling bucks will have a 13" or greater inside spread between the main beams.

Your county went from a 1 deer, buck only county to a 4 deer, no more than 2 bucks and no more than 2 antlerless deer bag limit?

Do you even read the research and data collected from the 6 experimental counties?

I don't guess you said you were but someone else told me you are and since you didn't deny it I assume it's the truth. If not, I apologize but that still makes no difference in this discussion.

Can I or can I not shoot 2 with unbranched antlers if I want to legally? Are most unbranched antlered deer spikes? Are most spikes yearlings? Then I can shoot 2 yearlings if I want to. And yes, before AR's we were allowed 1 buck and no does during gun season. The only way you could hunt does was in Archery only season. Now we can kill 2 bucks and 2 does during rifle season. Why would I read biased data from other Counties? They have no relevance to the County I hunt in. You think all property should have the same management plan? And all Counties are created equally?

What county do you hunt in? No, most unbranched antlered bucks are not spikes. What biased data and please point it out?

Rusk and give me a break.

I do know a few hunters that would shoot the first thing with horns and then hold on to their second tag until something bigger and better would show up!!! That's why I say just lower the limit and people would hold their tag for a bigger older buck would show up thus saving the youngsters!!! Plus I would lower the doe limit also to balance out!!!

That was done with the beginning of the AR's in the first 6 counties and hunters did that exact thing. Which had a significant increase of unbranched antlered bucks (not just spikes) due to hunters holding onto their 1 buck tag since those counties were 1 buck and wait for a forked antlered buck on both sides. Hunters would not sacrifice their only buck tag on a spike or an buck with an unbranched antler on one side which would mean the end of their buck hunting for that county - those counties went to a 2 buck county, but one of the bucks must have an unbranched antler on one side.

'Seadog and Bowslayer from reading your posts the problems you guys are having have little to do with ARs and alot to do with guys busting a cap on anything that moves.'

More than likely it would return back to that very same thing.

You still didn't answer my question and I suspect that's because you know there is no good answer. How did making a 1 buck no doe county into a 2 buck 2 doe County in a County with already low deer density help ANYTHING? You guys just keep trying to polish that turd.

Also, if you think most unbranched antlered bucks are not spikes you are wrong. I hunt WMA's all over the state. Some of them allow the hunters to shoot 1 buck with an unbranched antler. Last year I can think of about 10 or 11 unbranched antlered bucks that were killed. Of those 100 percent were spikes and 100 percent were yearlings.

I remember the dark ages of the one buck county.

Only good thing back then was the ability to shoot a buck with six or more points on one side, not sure what ever happened to that rule, just poof it was gone and we got to shoot spikes for free.

BowSlayer, it seems that a lot of people just want to make excuses for AR's and want to attack anyone that sees things differently!!!

welcome to life. and the THF. hi.

Maybe if you shot those trashy narrow bucks when they were yearling spikes, you wouldn't have a bunch of old, narrow trashy bucks.

Paging STX...

Some places do and still have old, hvy horned, narrow bucks that didn't start life as spikes

Seadog and bowslayer you are wasting your time and breath. The AR lovers dont care if it dont work in your area as long as it works for them and besides i dont think they can count. 1 buck and no does before in hopkins co. and saw deer at every sitting and 6yrs into AR and lucky to see a deer at all. The only difference is now under AR regs and 4 deer bag limit people can kill pretty much whatever walks by. Many people will kill as many deer as they have tags for because TPW says they can. Take us back to the old bag limits and i bet our deer numbers will come back to where they were before AR. For all you guys and gals that AR is working for you, glad to hear it! But for those of us where it aint working why would you fault us for trying to change it so it does work?

works both ways buddy. like i keep saying, if we all got along how fun would this place really be?

Im not sure what the other 5 experimental counties were, but I know that the one experimental county I hunt in did not go from a 1 buck to 2 buck 4 doe count, it just went to a two buck county (one being a spike)....so if this data was so good, why did they not implement it in the experimental counties? And to say the deer density in that county isn't high enough would be an extreme joke....

Yes,I was born and raised 5 minutes from the Rusk county line. My grandparents lived there and I took the first nice buck I ever killed there in 1975. Rusk county had a deer season when all counties east of it did not. There is not and never has been a "narrow rack" gene problem in that county-the bucks are generally of the normal,dark horned variety common to east TX.There were lots of big bucks being killed in the 70s and 80s and there are lots of big bucks being killed there today.

Rusk county does not have a deer population problem. Now, like in any east TX county, I can certainly see a particular place there having a problem if the hunters there and/or their neighbors have an "if it's brown,it's down" mentality. That's common all over east TX,always has been, and probably always will be.

ARs are not the cause of any problems one might see in Rusk county.Everyone around you filling every tag on their license can be.Or alot of poaching going on in your area. But that's true anywhere and everywhere.

Oh my goodness! You have never hunted in Rusk County. You shot a deer "near" Rusk County in the 70's. You are just like all the other uninformed know-it-all's on this forum. Why don't you answer a question I have asked several times instead a spouting meaningless blather? You don't know what you're talking about, you have never even hunted this County. If you think Rusk County has high deer density I need some of whatever it is you're smoking. Let me ask you this question AGAIN, this time I'll seperate it from the other words so you can find it...

How did going from a 1 buck 0 doe County pre-AR's to a 2 buck 2 doe County with AR's improve anything in a County with already low deer density.


^^^^^^Look right there and answer the question^^^^^^^


I really don't care what you think about it, you've already proven you just like to run your mouth about things you know nothing about. If you would just look at the question I posted and actually think about it instead of trying to figure out how to twist it you might grasp what I'm trying to tell you. You hunted "near" Rusk County one time when you were a kid. I hunt IN Rusk County and have done so every year for the last 35 years.

when did ar's start in rusk county? i started hunting 1500 acres there in 2006 and we have never seen many deer.

and to anwser your question, the change did nothing to improve anything in your area of rusk county. is that what you want to hear?

That's my whole point. You started hunting there pre-AR's and said "we have never seen many deer". And yet the bag limit for the County quadrupled with AR's. It has done way more harm than good and the longer it stays the way it is the longer it will take for the County to recover once they figure out that.

Read my post again. Slowly, this time-with comprehension. If it helps I'll direct you to the first 2 sentences.

And you have the gall to talk about someone running their mouth and not knowing what they are talking about.

If you can't kill a decent buck in Rusk country you are either in a piss-poor area that could be caused by any number of factors. Or you are not as good a hunter as you think you are. I have given you the benefit of the doubt and assumed the former.

ARs have nothing to do with it IMO. But I get everyone needs a scapegoat when things aren't working out for them.

LOL!!! Still didn't answer the question. You made my day by skirting the real question again, thank you! LMAO

Just leave rusk co.... if its already a poor area for deer why keep beating a dead horse

Yep that's what we should all do, just leave rather than trying to improve anything. Words of wisdom there sir.

You just said yourself its a poor area with low density......dosnt sound like your gona get much done either way... if you choose to stay than its your problem you have every right to leave... like i said beating a dead horse.

And theres no we all... i only see a handfull of people in hear standing over that horse

I have answered all your questions-you just don't like my answers.

Tell you what-you keep laughing and I'll keep killing nice bucks in an AR county about 45 minutes from you. And looking at my big Rusk county buck on the wall taken either before you were born or at least still crappin' yellow.

And looking at pics of the big Rusk county bucks my kinfolk and buddies are killing every year. All while you're empty handed and bitching about ARs on a hunting forum.

Why someone that does not hunt nor live in this County would feel the need to jump in on this is beyond me. You have no first-hand knowledge of anything that goes on here. If they took your County bag limits to 4 times what they should be and the herd was getting shot out to where you see a deer every once in a while as opposed to every hunt would you like it? I suppose you would just leave the County?

You never answered the question and you know you didn't. You have proven my point over and over again. I'm done with this thread. You people do not have the ability to comprehend that the entire state is not created the same. All you want to do is be heard when in fact you have nothing useful to say. I can post pictures of bigger bucks than you will ever see or kill in Rusk County and I didn't need the Government involved to grow them. Carry on with your blather and maybe some day, somewhere, someone will actually care what you say although highly doubtful.

My county did go to 4 also.... And no i dnt live or hunt there and wont because of the poor deer quality i hear about like this... im simply going off what you are telling me... just saying it sounds like you wouldnt be able to get anything done about it and wasnt all that good before anyway....

So the problem with Rusk county seemed to happen about the time Andrea Yates showed up.... I think we found the culprit.

Have lived in hopkins co. for 30yrs and hunted on my land all that time and all was good hunting up untill the AR regs changed and its gotten worse every year since. I understand u can have a off year or to but 6yrs? We just want to see more deer and if we are lucky one with a big rack.

Well I happened to have a copy of the 1980 hunting regulations and Rusk was a 2 buck county then-which was as I remembered but didnt want to say until I knew for sure.No problems then with any 2 bucks allowed. But I guess it's all the ARs fault now.

No, I never did say that and if a county where implementing the AR's after several years has shown to have an adverse affect on the population as well as when increased antlerless bag limit, then the regulation and restriction should be re-evaluated for that county. Am I 100% AR, nope, reason being there are bucks born and walking that will continue to walk regardless of age that will never make the AR's and when TPWD increased the bag limit from 1 buck to 2 bucks, with the second tag for a 'cull' buck, but it must have an unbranched antler on one side, that was going to leave a lot of inferior bucks out there that will never make either criteria of the AR's including older aged bucks with narrow racks.

Correct, not all counties can be treated the same.

[/quote]
I remember the dark ages of the one buck county.

Only good thing back then was the ability to shoot a buck with six or more points on one side, not sure what ever happened to that rule, just poof it was gone and we got to shoot spikes for free. [/quote]

After 2 years of the restriction, if a buck with 6 or more points on one side were taken, it was 13" or greater inside spread to begin with, so it was removed. But you have it incorrect on the 'spikes'. An unbranched antler on one side was ALWAYS a criteria of the AR's to begin with and it was not listed for a SPIKE in the regulation even though a spike will meet the the unbranched anlter on one side criteria. Many hunters believe that any UNBRANCHED antlered buck on one side is a spike which it is not.

Did they happen to allow does to be killed durring bow season?

Yes

Yes x2. And MLD permits were allowed for does which many got. Not too long after that doe days/weeks began.

Edit: not MLD, LAMPS or whatever it was called back then.

sooooo its always pretty much been a 4 deer county

LAMPS also

You guys are laughable. Do you not have anything better to do than post inaccurate and irrelevant information on an internet forum in an attempt to start an argument? I could dispute pretty much all information you have both posted with proof but what's the point? "You can't fix stupid". NP, just keep posting inaccurate information from 30 years ago and Nav you just keep being a follower and agree with everything he posts even though you have no idea if it's true. It's no wonder we have our current President with goofballs like you 2 running around. Do some actual research for yourself instead of believing everything you read Nav, you might be surprised at what you find. NP, grow up bro. You are trying to argue about a County you don't hunt or live in with information from over 30 years ago. Like I said, you are both laughable. Good luck and I'm out....

Awwww did someones feelings get hurt...

They stay hurt I think.

But I don't know nothin'.

Man I got no dog in the fight, but hell all I hear is you keep tellin them is about what they dont know and you got pictures and you could do this... sounds like a bag full of hot air if you ask me. Your wizzed off because your huntin place sucks and you dont know what to do about it.

Prove it otherwise with all your pictures info and experience... come on show them up!

ARs to the rescue! Heck, they are the answer to our deer hunting prayers. Have patience. They just haven't been around long enough to make a difference.
Wait for it........................................
.....................................................................................................................................................

This whole trend of people that don't hunt or live in the County jumping on the bandwagon to argue about said County is very interesting to say the least.

First off, I will admit I got a little carried away in some of my previous posts and I owe anyone I offended an apology, seriously. I could post up pictures of deer that would would be larger than anything on the books for Rusk County, but that really isn't what this is about. It's very hard for me to watch a County that was decent with deer numbers (not great) slowly turn into a County with less and less deer every season due to the increased bag limits. Then all the other people that don't live or hunt here feel the need to jump in and say that the increased bag limits are not the problem, it's has to be something I'm doing wrong. Let's look at some facts on this....

MLD doe tags were mentioned, here's my take on that... On an MLD property the County Bag limits do not apply. They do a deer density survey on the property and allot you doe permits according to what your property needs. So if I have a MLD property of say 1000 acres (which I do) we are allotted 8 doe permits for the season. If that was not a MLD property how many doe would the current bag limits allow? Well since we have 8 members and their families we could easily legally kill 20-30 doe off that property. There are very few (if any) properties in Rusk County that can support that without totally wiping out the deer herd. And yet that's exactly what happens with the AR's and increased bag limits that come with them.

LAMPS permits were also mentioned.... Same thing with that. LAMPS permits actually allow way less doe to be shot than the current bag limits. You get 1 doe permit for every 100 acres. On a 1000 acre property under the LAMPS program you could kill 10 does and that's it. Doesn't matter if it's bow season, gun season, or whatever. It's 10 doe and done.

Most people know what their lease/property can support and make an attempt not to shoot it out. Then others think that if TP&W says we can shoot that many does then we must have an over-population problem. A person with 5 acres in the County could kill their does, then their kids could shoot some, then their brother-in-law, then whoever else they want to let hunt on that 5 acres.

I have said it before many times, if the current AR's are working for you that's great and I mean that. I just don't understand why those of us that see our deer herd getting wiped out don't get to have an opinion also. Every time one of these threads gets going and someone says they don't like them or they don't work for them it turns into a 15 page bashing from folks that don't live or hunt there or have any interest whatsoever in that County.

Anyway, NP, Nav, I apologize for being an azz. I am just very passionate about the County I live and hunt in and it makes me sick to see blanket regulations put in place that are wiping out our deer herd.

I looked through my pictures here at work and can only find one buck on my photobucket account so here it is. Like I said, you don't need AR's to grow big bucks. You can do it all by yourself if you just put the effort in that it takes to do it.

That pic is from 2012 if the date is correct. So how much better did they used to be?

I'm not sure what you mean? I said I could post pics of big bucks that I did not need AR's to produce and you said post it so I did. I never argued that AR's don't help with antler size. I said AR's are allowing WAY too many deer to be killed in this County. The buck I posted is not a product of AR's. He is the product of a management plan and lots of hard work. He was born on our property and I suspect he will die of old age their. He would have been legal under the AR's at age 2.

Here he is the season before that one...

Another one from the year before...

I can speak for all the pineywoods when I say you have deer pockets...either you're in one or your not and quality will vary between pockets.

I agree 100%. I think the current bag limits were put in place for the "pockets" and the other places are getting shot out due to them.

You would think i would see a buck like these on my cameras after 6yrs of AR and killing only 1 buck in 3yrs. Now im lucky to see deer on the camera at all. To many deer are being taken to ever see anything like the ones above. Dont see why TPW cant just lower the bag limit and maybe we can see some big bucks too.

It might help to have more than 50 acres.

Why would it help to have more than 50 acres.
He has said repeatedly he saw more deer on the same 50 acres prior to AR's.

I think that last post was very tactful and full of class.

Those are some great bucks.

I've got 5 acres here in Hood Cty and have never seen a deer on it. I have a friend down the road that has 140+ acres and has deer in the130s-160s. Too many variables outside smaller places can affect deer movement.

How many deer should live on 50 acres?

big difference between 5 and 50. a house next to 5 acres is going to affect wildlife movement a lot more than one next to 50.

What about neighbors hunting on the fence line surrounding the 50 acres?

will affect movement a lot less than it would on 5.

you can sit here and make 50 acres impossible to hunt and impossible to hold deer on if you want, but comparing 5 acres to 50 acres to 140 acres doesnt make sense.

sorry, multitasking at work... i hunt 45 acres and literally have a neighbor sitting in a folding chair behind a camo curtain 15 yards from my fence, FACING my fence, still see plenty of deer everytime i go out.

How many deer do you Think you have on your 45 acres at any given time?

had 9 doe/fawns at the feeder last week in one pic and have counted 5-6 bucks that are hitting it reguarly throughout the week so far. i still have 4-5 bucks that should filter back in over the next month or so if the pattern holds from past seasons. i figured 20+ different deer were using my feeders last summer.

do i think they are staying on my property exclusively? no, i doubt it, there are a few small (20-30 acres) properties around me that arent hunted that they probably frequent as well.

No worries bud

So what would happen if your 20-30 acre tract neighbors started to hunt and only took 2 bucks and 3 does. How would that affect your hunting during that year? What would happen if they took 2 more bucks the following year? And so on.... See how smaller properties are affected

On a side note, let's just say that half of the 20 deer that use your feeder stay on the property. That means you have a deer per 4.5 acres. That is over population. Most land can support maybe a deer per 10-15 acres if the habitat is good

well of course it would affect it, but i was just saying that you couldnt compare your 5 acres where you dont see deer to some other guys 50 that you have probably never seen.

on the side note, sounds like we need to raise the bag limits, eh?

i realize there are too many deer, with a 4 day doe season (excluding archery season) it isnt going to go down anytime soon, but the bucks are doing pretty well, i think there is plenty of food around there.

So I guess small properties should be exempt from numbers management by the TPWD. Seems to me that smaller property owners want to carry more deer to make up for the smaller property.

How would you feel if a guy had 1000 acres with 222 deer( deer per 4.5 acres) on it all the time but can see 444 deer during the season. How long would it take for that land to have a browse line?

buddy, i am pro AR. i love seeing 5-10 deer everytime i sit in a tree and i love seeing, well in pics anyway, mature bucks.

Smaller tracks that are holding that many deer usualy have a reason for it... those deer arnt going to stick around if there is a better food source within the region... It could be that its an ideal bedding area with most of the cover for a good ways... or just provides that much feed/water source for them. Its mainly just hard to tell by going off a track that size...Not saying it isnt overpopulated but you would need to know what size land and numbers of deer are around you as well to make that call.

Y'all just let me know when y'all want some more of my input that everyone can agree with....

Looking at a 5ac field up against a 51ac pine plantation/6yo-28yo stand and there are 18 deer at the back of the field....fixin to head to Rusk Co and see if it compares.

or

Didn't unload cam from truck...but already on Hwy 21 rolling West.

3 deer spotted in Rusk Co

Spotted hogs?

0

No worries at all. Hope things turn around for you.

Those 3 deer in a field just outside of Laneville was it for Rusk Co!

If AR's are so good why not make it at least 20" wide. That way you could grow some really good deer.

Now that's a pretty good idea! 1 buck over 20" and one spike w/ both mainbeams measuring 7 6/8" to be legal

Because the deers ears are not that wide How else could the TPWD come up with such a scientific technique for measuring a healthy deer. Oh and another thing! To tell how old a buck really is you must cut the antler 3.5" above the G1 and count the rings (each ring makes it a year in life No BS).

You would have to buy one of the new scopes that compensates for temp. time of year,time of day,caliber of rifle,how old you are, distance to deer how much alcohol you have consumed and numerous factors that I won't bore you with. It is intergrated in wihth the trigger of your rifle so it won't fire unless it is a legal deer.

I need one of those because quite frankly I'm scarred to death to pull the trigger nowadays

Tye i know all of my neighbors around my 47acres and nothing has changed in over 10yrs. In fact we have a few less hunters than before AR went into affect and the numbers of deer are still declining. And as far as being over populated, when is the last time anybody in east tx seen a starving deer? My property is in a creek bottom flood plain so nobody is moving in or building homes or doing more crops. Its the bag limit that needs changing and nothing else. 1 buck and maybe 1 doe. Not 2 bucks and 2 does.

whats up with that eye charlie?

Had it messed up the yr before...probably from fighting

AR's, wow.

They are a solution to someone else's problem.

I can see how they would work, in an environment that had high numbers, and low pressure.

I can see how they are devastating in areas with low numbers and high pressure.

I can't see how it's that hard to understand.


I speak with and work back and forth with TPWD often on this issue and a couple of others I am passionate about. I seldom speak up here anymore, but felt obliged to here. They know the faults with the system; and they know it's needing an overhaul already. It's lack of funding to move forward that's stopping them. They also know that they have poor to zero data to support keeping or expanding them at this time. What they need is mandatory check stations, soon.



Here's an analogy:

I understand the 85 mile per hour speed limit on I-10 west of Kerrville to near El Paso.

I too understand where I-10 is limited to 60 through the north side of San Antonio...

Are you pro AR everywhere guys really going to say "it's the same road, same cars, surely the same regulations will work fine everywhere"?

I don't ever see where people in the same part of the same county disagree.

Please don't get me started on Geographic boundaries, ECoRegions, or statistics...

Thank you!

x2! Like i have posted several times before. If it works for you thats great but dont put me down because i want to make it better for me. And vernon you always say it better than i can.

In our area of Erath, ARs have increased the age structure but we still have a low population, comparitively speaking. Approximately 1 deer per 25 acres. I wish they would reduce the number of deer you can kill. 4 deer per hunter is 2 deer too many. We're lucky to shoot one Buck per season. We don't shoot doe. Our Buck- Doe ratio is, believe it or not, about 1-1. Overall I'm a fan, just wish they would reduce the number you can kill.

What I don't understand is why does one area of the state have to many deer and another have in hunters minds too few. Here in the majority of the Hill Country we actually have too many deer. In other parts of the state which have probably even better grazing for deer have few deer? It isn't from hunting pressure or people taking too many deer. You have large ranches on some of these places that harvest very few deer yet the numbers don;t improve. Is it predators, genetics, minerals, parasites or what that keeps the numbers low?

ARs were brought upon us by ourselves (hunters). 10 hunters on 300 acres type stuff is killing hunting in Texas and increasing our high fences at a rapid rate.

ARs were brought on by greed in my opinion. Hunting, big horns = big money. If it was about better age grouping they would have elimanated the spike tag.

Who's idea was it to open up this can of worms.

Bump

my question for AR is: Aren't you artificially selecting for smaller antlers when you allow large antlered animals to be killed and letting inferior genetics walk? When a mature deer does not have the capability of growing any larger but is still left to breed, aren't you spreading those inferior genetics while at the same time allowing superior genetics to be killed off on a yearly basis? Just a thought....

STILL HATE AR'S and have seen no change.

The genie is out of the box.

ARs are great I have seen a huge increase in the age class of deer since the law changed and I never see mature bucks under 13

Sold the first place I owned in December. A guy that had lived out there for 40 years told me that he had seen almost no deer until recently and all of the sudden there are deer everywhere. ARs in place for 5 years.

Just bought a new place near Bellville. Gentlemen leasing my hay was county commissioner for 20 years. "Ever since that rule about the horn size was put in place, the hunting has really gotten much better. See a lot of better deer now."

Love ARs. Wish I could kiss them.

I'm not getting in another pizzing match over this but it's laughable to me that anyone thinks this is a good way to manage a deer herd.

Doesn't matter if it's a 2 year old with great genetics, it's legal.

A 5 year old with horrible genetics is illegal.

TP&W pushes that it's a way to improve the age structure in the buck herd and in the same regulation allows the harvest of 2 yearling bucks

The only way to judge the width is with the deer alert and looking at you and you need binos (this is what the actual TP&W video says in the other thread). How ridiculous is that?

Kids are held to the same ridiculous regulations on antler restrictions that were put in place by lots of people that shot basket racks as their first buck. I did the same and was very proud of it. Kids now don't have that option. Go big or go home. What a freaking joke.

A very good friend of mine got off his deer lease when the regs went in place because he is older and didn't want to be a criminal for shooting a buck with a 12" spread on accident. He had been hunting religiously for 60 years before the regs went in place. He has not hunted since. Makes me sick to my stomach that folks think that's a good thing.

My grandpa has not hunted since they went in place for the same reason. He's 85 years old. Did I mention these regs are stupid?

Most of the Counties in East Texas now have these regs. Most of these Counties also had low deer numbers before the regs were put in place. TP&W have taken these Counties that were allowed 1 buck and no Does during rifle season and increased their bag limits to 2 bucks and 2 does. There are isolated pockets in these counties that can sustain that but most areas of the counties can not.


If all the pro AR's guys can't see the BS being promoted by TP&W in order to increase revenue and for no other reason then you should lay off the Kool Aid for a while.

We live in a society that is more and more selfish as the years go by. Folks think about their opportunities for killing a bigger buck and don't give the Collateral damage a second thought. Basically if it works for me then screw everyone else.

I don't buy in and never will unless some serious changes are made. You guys that love them just take a minute to think about the entire scope of the regs instead of "my hunting is better".

As ridiculous as the 13" rules are I would feel much better about them if they would just not hold our kids to those standards. Allow kids 16 and under to shoot any buck they want to. Is that so horrible? It's just a stupid deer, believe it or not they do reproduce and there will be another one take his place.

Now what could AR stand for in this instance......

I could not agree more! Who in their right mind would think this is a good way to a deer herd???

Wow bowslayer you sure are an expert

Thanks

Definitely sarcasm

Likewise

I'll give you a dollar if you can find one thing in my post that is inaccurate. Go ahead, give it a shot.

Doesn't take but a decent 2yo w/ mediocre genetics to hit 13". Should I PM you my address for the collection of 1 Mr. Washington?

Dang, you got me. Do you take Paypal?

The first sentence...I believe you are in fact "in the middle of a pizzing match".

I will PM my address for payment

I have a feeling I may need a second job before this is over.

I will loan you my dollar to give to txshntr @ 20% interest.

Havent worked in the 5+ yrs we have had ar rules. All ar rules and regs have done is kill off more bucks and does than ever before. AR SUCKED THEN AND SUCKS NOW!

Fact… The AR rule has worked great for me and my group of my hunters on the ranch I manage in Eastland County.

On our ranch in Eastland, when it was a one buck County it was hard for me to convince my group of hunters to use their ONLY buck tag on a trash buck (it was a lost cause).
But now that Eastland is a two buck County we are able to weed out the (mature) cull bucks and still have an opportunity at a great trophy buck. And we are now reaping the benefits of the AR rule!!!

IMO… If you manage your deer herd correctly the AR rule WILL and DOES work.
Believe me when I say it’s not easy when starting out on trying to managing a deer herd.
It’s going to take a lot of hard work, dedication and commitment from all hunters involved. But in time you will see a big deference in the quality of the deer your hunting and it is very rewarding to see your progress.

IMO… That bucks must be able to mature before you can consider them a cull. If you shoot your 2 and 3 year old 13+” bucks just because it’s of legal width your totally defeating the purpose of the AR rule. There is NO way you can truly manage your deer herd if this is your hunting method.

Simple… If you don’t let your bucks mature you’re NOT going to notice the benefits that the AR rule brings!!!

I think I have come up with a plan that will work for both of us. I will send you a check for $20. You deposit the check in your bank, keep $10 for your trouble and send me $10 back. If this is acceptable to you I will have my agent contact you and get your name, address, phone number, social security number, and birthdate. I will be waiting for your reply.

A$$ Rangler..... i'm guessing..

I'm not really following part of that. You can shoot two bucks in Eastland County with branched antlers? How are you shooting a "cull" that is mature and more than 13" and still hunting for a "trophy"? In every AR county I know of around here you are only allowed one buck over 13" and the other one has to have an unbranched antler. Unbranched antler 90% of the time means spike which 95% of the time means yearling.

Also you say if you shoot your 2 and 3 year olds just because they are legal you are defeating the purpose. I agree. Isn't that supposed to be why AR's are in place though? If a hunter can age a deer on the hoof there is no need for AR's at all is there?

The problem is you guys are assuming that people will "manage" their deer herd like you do.

The truth is that for the vast majority of the AR counties the only "management" was shooting the crap out of the first yearling buck seen. A two year old was a real prize and a three year old was a trophy seldom seen. (Wonder why? Hmmm....)

No,ARs are not perfect "management" but they are dang sure better than no management at all. ALOT better.

Maybe they are alot better for you, great. They are not alot better for lots of people and nobody cares.

Should everybody be forced to have the same goals and management practices? Should TP&W dictate what makes a hunter happy? If a kid wants to shoot a small buck why shouldn't they be able to?

I only bowhunt because it's more challenging to me. Maybe they will outlaw guns at some point so that everybody hunts my way. Would that be fair?

I'm glad they work for you but why can't you understand they don't work in other places? And even if they do work for growing deer with larger antlers what is the cost? Do you really think hunters in East TExas will hold off a buck that they can't get to look at them in the alert position? There is a lot of SMD going on. Shoot Measure Discard. I've seen it for myself.

ARs rule.

Haters drool.

"Give me liberty or give me death! And ARs!" - Patrick Henry

Since ARs are anti-liberty, you are choosing the latter....

"You can shoot two bucks in Eastland County with branched antlers?" No sir - No one hunter can legally do this with their own two buck tags form their hunting license.

"How are you shooting a "cull" that is mature and more than 13" and still hunting for a "trophy"?" Last year I shot a 4 year old spike. And my son shot this buck. These two bucks counted against my two allowed bucks.


Like I said - It’s going to take a lot of hard work, dedication and commitment from all hunters involved.
For the first few years we made the commitment to cull out our mature cull bucks. These deer were more than 13" and we used our trophy tags on them.
Now In most seasons there are few if any culls that need to be taken. And if there are I have hunters that hunt with their sons. These boys are more than happy to take the culls with their own tag. (These bucks do count against the paid member’s 4 deer quota)

Could you not do the exact same thing before ARs? I still don't follow how ARs play a role in your culling?

So you're talking lease rules vs state rules..state rules would let each paying member harvest their 5 tags...plus any guests/kids harvest their 5 tags on the place. Seems like the place would get shot out following state rules w/ quotas pulled back below state issued tags.

Edit: would be 4 deer per person since only 2 bucks could be shot.

Bowslayer I am not actually disagreeing with you that they don't work in some places.

But, if OVERALL, they have improved the age structure of the herd resulting in bigger bucks then by definition that means they are on balance a good thing. No system is perfect but this system is better than the prior system OVERALL. So don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I will never be convinced that for the vast majority of places/tracts ARs were anything other than an improvement. Blasting every yearling/two year old with horns was rampant. It needed to stop and it wasn't going to stop on its own.

State rules do not have to be lease rules. If your deer population is suffering, lower the allotment. If the buck:doe ratio is out of whack, limit the harvest of the lower number until it gets back on track. Will you lose some to your neighbor who tags out, lets his wife and kids tag out, brother, cousin, coworker, etc? Sure...you can't control what happens outside of your property. It sucks, but that's the reality. Should the state change things in some areas? Probably...is it gonna happen? Probably not...it's just the way it is

But if you have a decent sized piece of land, get your fellow lease members on board and change the rules to benefit everyone. And if there's someone who is an "I'm filling my tag, everyone else be damned" type hunter, get rid of them. Do what's best for your lease and "your" deer!! Majority rules...minority will either join the program or find somewhere else to hunt.

Edit: by "benefit everyone" I'm meaning that with a healthy herd, everyone theoretically will be happy. But be honest, you're dealing with humanity

Not following state rules requires more restraint than people have...it is true or rules wouldn't have stiffened. Game cams will do more good for bucks than any 13" rule will. Ppl aren't hunting blind as to what's around their places now that cams are mainstream.

Cant get mature bucks when TPW lets you shoot the babys! Year old bucks and mature buck and the does that will create the next generation are all fair game to TPW. and by your way of thinking it will all work out if we dont kill off the 13in bucks. It aint working in hopkins co. If TPW says its ok and legal to kill em alot of people will do it and there is no way to control it unless you have alot of acredge or can get all your neighbors to see eye to eye.

Very true on the first part...and hopefully it works out to be true on the second part

Ok, but you can still blast every yearling spike you see and all 2 year olds with decent genetics. Only difference is that people used to hold off of spikes most of the time because they only had one buck tag. Now the yearling is a freebee. Can you see how the regulation contradicts itself at all?

In his haste to he screwed up. I love it!

"lets," not "makes." have u tried talking to your neighbors?

We the people pay TP&W to manage our wildlife don't we? If they say it's legal to shoot 2 yearling spikes then it must be necessary, correct? If their management plan is doing harm and not good we should fire them. Then again, by looking at our entire government as a whole apparently when they are incompetent they should get a raise.

Y'all anti-AR guys all say that but that is not the way it is working in the deer woods. In the real world the way it works the vast majority of the time is the "unbranched antler" tag goes unused because does are shot instead. And a potload of yearlings and two year olds now survive to reach at least three. This was not the case before.

Just stating the worst case scenario as fact is not a cogent argument when it is not actually happening. That would be like stating every licence holder shoots a deer for every tag on his licence when that is not what happens either. If it were, the deer herd would be decimated pretty quickly.

bowslayer, u said earlier that TPW uses AR's to increase revenue...how does that work? honestly, i dont see a correlation.

Are you telling me there's no correlation to having Counties with larger antlered bucks and money? Bigger antlers = more money. It has nothing to do with balancing the age of the bucks, it's about the antler size and nothing else.

That's simply not true. Not around here anyway. The first thing people say is "if I see a spike he's dead". "Might as well, that's all I can use that tag on".

i guess i never looked at my tags and thought it was "necessary" to fill every one.

That's good.

All u PRO ar guys say the same thing too like how all the young bucks are getting killed without ar rules! THE BIG DIFFERENCE IS NOW YOU CAN KILL 2 YOUNG BUCKS AND 2 MORE DOES THAN YOU COULD KILL BEFORE AR! YALL PRO AR GUYS NEED TO STICK TO YOUR STORY. Nogales your worst case scenario IS happening here.

so you are talking about money from out of staters, ok.

They don't care bro. They don't hunt here so why would they?

Not just out of staters. Everybody. Which is cheaper, a lease in the hill country or deep south texas? Why is deep south texas more expensive? Hmmmmm.... antler size might play into that. Bigger bucks equals more hunters equals more money spent on anything to do with hunting.

hoytman, have you talked to your neighbors about starting a management plan/co-op? i know its kind of a "confrontational" topic and people hate talking to their neighbors about stuff like that, but a lot of times thats all it takes.

true, kind of getting off track, i come from a small town and a family in small business that is all but dead, they would welcome a flock of hunters every year spending money in their town. TPW doesnt get any of that.

So you are saying TPW is using AR's to create revenue, you are saying the way to create revenue is to create bigger bucks...so in theory, you are saying that TPW is creating bigger bucks to create more revenue by using AR's.

Which side of the argument are you on?

how far is hopkins county from hunt county? i feed anywhere from 10-20 deer a day on the very small place that i hunt. the few guys that i know around me are all happy with the AR's, we have nice bucks to choose from and even though one or two may take a spike for meat, they dont tag out. my problem is that i need a longer doe season, the 4 days in november arent enough.

Are you telling me there's no correlation to having Counties with larger antlered bucks and money? Bigger antlers = more money. It has nothing to do with balancing the age of the bucks, it's about the antler size and nothing else. [/quote]

so you are talking about money from out of staters, ok. [/quote]

Not just out of staters. Everybody. Which is cheaper, a lease in the hill country or deep south texas? Why is deep south texas more expensive? Hmmmmm.... antler size might play into that. Bigger bucks equals more hunters equals more money spent on anything to do with hunting. [/quote]

So you are saying TPW is using AR's to create revenue, you are saying the way to create revenue is to create bigger bucks...so in theory, you are saying that TPW is creating bigger bucks to create more revenue by using AR's.

Which side of the argument are you on? [/quote]

I forgot which side I'm on. Oh yeah, I'm against them.

jshouse i actually have talked to 3 out of 4 neighbors and they didnt care at all. They liked being able to kill there limit if they wanted to. The only way i can see any hope is for TPW to lower the limit back down to 1 buck and maybe 1 doe on thanksgiving weekend.

I have to go back to work now, lunch hour is over. Love'em or hate'em they are in place. I just wish they would take another public vote on them since they have been in place for a few years. I have a feeling they would not pass again in the County I hunt in unless they did a secret vote.

I'm still trying to figure out why the spike tags aren't getting used despite the old theory of anything with horns gets shot...

"Could you not do the exact same thing before ARs?" Nope… Not in a one buck county. There is no way the results would have been the same without AR’s.

I still don't follow how ARs play a role in your culling? It's really quite simple... We allow our bucks to mature before we even consider shooting them. Before AR's we could shoot ANY (one) buck we wanted any size. We would not shoot trash bucks in hopes that a trophy buck would show. Those trash bucks would get a pass and they would be the bucks that would breed our does. Now that AR's are in place we are able to control our deer herd.

And for the record... I have 5 paid hunters on my lease. Each hunter is allowed 4 deer. 2-bucks, 2-does. If they are hunting with a child, and if that child takes a deer it comes off the paid hunter’s quota.
Last year there were 8 deer total shot. 4 does, 4 bucks 3-8's and one spike.

It's really quite simple... We allow our bucks to mature before we even consider shooting them. Before AR's we could shoot ANY (one) buck we wanted any size. We would not shoot trash bucks in hopes that a trophy buck would show. Those trash bucks would get a pass and they would be the bucks that would breed our does. Now that AR's are in place we are able to control our deer herd.

And for the record... I have 5 paid hunters on my lease. Each hunter is allowed 4 deer. 2-bucks, 2-does. If they are hunting with a child, and if that child takes a deer it comes off the paid hunter’s quota.
Last year there were 8 deer total shot. 4 does, 4 bucks 3-8's and one spike.




I understand that you allow your bucks to mature before shooting them, great. Could you not do that before ARs were in place? The only difference is the added spike tag and if you're not shooting yearlings that would very rarely come into play. I think you are confusing a change in your lease rules with the AR regulations. I still don't get how AR's give you any more ability to control your herd than you had before them. Last year you shot a spike and your boy shot a big one. Could have done the exact same thing prior to AR's. You say out of 5 members there were 4 bucks taken... again you can do the same thing without AR's. You said before you would not shoot trash bucks in hopes of a trophy showing up. You still have the same number of branched antlered buck tags you had before AR's. You said you let the kids shoot the trash bucks and they could have done the same thing before ARs. You are giving credit to AR's for your own personal management practices when in fact they play no role in what you're doing. That's all I'm saying.

So you are saying TPW is using AR's to create revenue, you are saying the way to create revenue is to create bigger bucks...so in theory, you are saying that TPW is creating bigger bucks to create more revenue by using AR's.

Which side of the argument are you on? [/quote]




Now back to this..

I'm all for creating more revenue through the growing of bigger bucks. But TP&W's plan for doing this in my County is destroying the deer herd and I'm not for that at all. If they had a plan that actually worked without doing harm I would not have a problem with it. Everybody should go find Dan's thread with the video from TP&W if they haven't already watched it. It's pretty amusing to me.

That's easy. Thanks to ARs people know they have a chance at a decent buck so no need to blast a spike now. Simply put, because ARs work. It's a new day where the "gotta shoot the first horn I see" mentality is fading. They are content to shoot a doe instead.

ARs work. Period. Maybe not in every corner of every county. But they work. I see it with my own eyes and, except for the same half-dozen or so on this forum, in everyone else's eyes too. I can honestly say I have not ever talked face to face with a single person who is anti-AR. And I talk to a fair amount of folks. This includes some real rednecks who thought they were Satan himself come to town.

I have talked to some who believe they can manage better than the AR system-so they go MLD3 or whatever the Oct-Feb managed program is called. Again, they are not anti-AR they just think they can do better.

It would still be easier to lower the bag limit and make it 1 buck only. Spike or 13in just not both and 1 doe only

The spike/unbranched antler tag was put in as a sop to the "it's brown it's down" crowd to make ARs a little easier to swallow. I honestly think you could get rid of it/replace it with a doe tag now without much squealing since doe opportunities have/are expanding.

Here's what I would like to see in my County. Maybe you Pro AR guys can chime in and see if you would be ok with it.

1 buck larger than 13"
1 doe
Under 16 and over 65 years of age can shoot one buck of any size

Would that not work?

sounds good.

It all "works" depending on what you are trying to accomplish I guess. You perceive that would expand opportunities for youngsters and old folks. My perception on my place is that,thanks to ARs being in place several years, those goatheads are now bigger so why not take one of them? If you have nicer bucks available for kids/old folks why shoot a goathead?

You still could do the same thing you are doing but the old and young wouldn't have to. No chance of one of them making a mistake. If they want to hunt big ones they still could. If they are just as happy to take a smaller one then why not let them?

I can promise you this. This deer would not meet AR's and my son still tells everybody that will listen about it. He is just as proud of it as anybody could be of a deer.

I have never seen even a kid or an old man opt for a goathead when bigger deer were available-excepting a very little kid who just doesn't know and Daddy can gently say "Let's wait on a little bigger one buddy."

I am all for kids/old folks opportunities. I just believe we can protect our yearling/two year old deer and STILL have ample opportunities for all. The first year I bought my place the biggest buck I saw was a goathead six point. That buck my daughter is holding above has alot of brothers his size and more than a few bigger roaming around now. ARs are the reason.

If you think you will have ample opportunities to kill a mature buck in the woods I hunt you are sadly mistaken. It's hard for an adult to kill one and pretty much impossible for a kid to. Of course, you don't hunt here so you wouldn't know that.

Sure he is and that's great!But that looks like Central Texas-it's a whole different ball game out there.

No I just was born and raised there-but we've been through all that. Try to get them changed for you that's fine. But leave them alone where I'm at. In other words,if you anti-AR guys want to talk about your own counties-go ahead. If you talk about an overall repeal you're in for alot of opposition....

How so? Because there aren't bigger ones there? Here's a picture I took of one the same trip.

I offer up a plan that would still help the trophy hunters grow their trophies and allow the kids and seniors to shoot smaller ones if they want to and you say no thanks. You are a very selfish person.

If you don't know the difference in population and management dynamics from central Texas vs. east TX no meaningful discussion can be had.

Well at least we agree on one thing... no meaningful conversation can be had between us...lol

You want to go back inch by inch to a "blast it all" system and you call me selfish? My kids are prospering, not suffering, due to ARs. I'm done taking your bait-it just sounds like you need to find a better place to hunt to me. I happen to know several within 5 miles of you where mature bucks are not that hard to come by.

You have a screw loose dude, seriously. You don't even know where I hunt but you know places within 5 miles of me...lol. My plan would not change anything you are doing and you are too dense to see that.

Don't stop AR's. I've hunted the same place for more than 12 years. We didn't have the AR in place at first and didn't see many big deer on the small places. I got to hunt a 1500 acre ranch just a few miles away and there were nice deer because no one had access to hunt for 10 years. I was the first to hunt the place and managed to get a 160 class 10 point on my second hunt. My father got a 150 11 point and my brother got a 135 8 point. This is only 8 miles from our original hunting grounds. The difference is the farmland we hunted was surounded by other un hunted farmland. Our area was pressured. Since the AR's went into effect I bought a place 11 miles from this big ranch and I am seeing deer that we would not have seen without the AR's in place. Big deer take time, patience and lots of cooperation. Cooperation being key.

judging by your location description, you're right behind him...therefore he does know where you're at

I was born and raised 5 miles from Rusk county. My grandparents lived there all their lives. I know it well. My friends still hunt Rusk county and kill bruisers there year in and year out. ARs have not hurt Rusk county. If it is "hard to kill" a mature buck where you are hunting in Rusk county then you are either not hunting the right place or don't know how to manage/hunt the place you are on. I will give Bowslayer the benefit of the doubt and assume the former.

But if I am wrong and there is a groundswell of Rusk county hunters who want ARs repealed there let them have at it. I have not seen such a groundswell and am not holding my breath...

Like I said, you don't live nor hunt here. You have "friends" that kill big ones every year.. what's your point? Are you telling me that you can bring a kid to my lease and kill a mature buck any time you want to? Can you bring a kid to my lease let him kill 1 mature buck during the entire season? You have no idea so I'm not sure why you insist on arguing a subject that you know nothing about. I said in my previous post that there are pockets of deer in the County and if you're in one then great. IF you're not then the current bag limits are wiping out the herd that's there.

The AR's do not affect me in any way other than my kid. I have no desire to shoot a young buck and I don't. You have a ME ME ME ME attitude and have no idea what you're talking about. Do you have any idea how large Rusk County is? Are all properties in Rusk County the same as far as deer numbers? I think you'll agree that the answer is NO. So why are you arguing what ARs have or have not done to where I hunt. I'll give you $1000.00 if you can guess within 25 miles of where I hunt.

Here's the FACTS, not what I heard from a friend of a friend about a County I don't hunt in.

Before AR's we had deer. Killed a few big ones here and there and the kids shot some small ones. It was unusual to sit in the stand and not see deer. We always had fun and made memories no matter the size of the antlers killed.

Post AR's... It's unusual to sit in the stand and see deer. I have not shot a buck nor has my son since they were put in place on this property. It has gone from a 1 buck County to 2 bucks and 2 does.

Why don't you just admit that it is very possible that AR's have done harm and not good where I hunt? Because you don't care about where I hunt. You care about where you hunt and just like to argue about things you don't know about. I never said they don't work where you hunt but you insist they do work where I hunt. Why is that?


PS I thought you were done taking my bait? Why don't you move on to something you can discuss with a little knowledge of the subject. Did you stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night?

I don't live in an AR County. But what I have seen around here is narrow antlered deer produce more of the same. If you could start off with only bucks that were proven to be able to produce offspring that in 3 years would be over the AR limit it would be a good thing. That would be in the perfect world. What you have now is mature narrow antlered bucks becoming the dominate bucks in a area. What they need to do for about 4 years is only 13" or less bucks with 6 or more points could be taken. Get them out of the gene pool.

no disrespect don, but i have read about <13" mature bucks on here before and i know they exist, but can we get some pics of these deer? not saying it doesnt happen and i havent hunted all over texas but i find it hard to believe that the majority of MATURE bucks in a given area would be <13".

I don't think he's saying the majority of mature bucks are less than 13" but when you're not allowed to shoot them and they breed until a ripe old age it will eventually get to that point. Here's a East Texas brush buck that I shot pre-ARs. 6.5 years old and 9.5 inch inside spread. He would now be protected while the other deer with better genetics are fair game.

I am not saying the majority, though it may be in a certain area. I know here for a number of years we had a good number of bucks that had no brow tines. Keep taking them out and now it is very seldom you see one. Last year I had an 8 point narrow antlered buck that I wanted taken. He never was. This year he looks heavier horned but still narrow. I also have a 6 point that was around 14" last year I wanted taken. he also made it through the season. This year he is still a 6 point at about 16". I am sure he breed some does and will probably pass the 6 point gene along. What I am saying it is a shame that with ARs you cannot legally cull deer that you know will not benefit the herd.

wow, that is unbelievably narrow lol.

Yeah, his grandsons come to my feeder and stick their tongues out at me.

I don't believe that's the case, bc of the old belief of once a spike always a spike. To hold out on a "better" deer one has to know there are actually better deer in the area (thank you game cams..and the post 2000 models that can store thousands of pics..not 36 before you gave to go get film developed) The trend of folks trying to kill the best buck their property/lease could produce in a given year has been around for a while. Then you have a new culture in hunting, can't deny it, there's several threads about how current hunting shows are bad and it's a reflection of that new culture. Then you have qdma pushing sex ratio and doe thinning with folks buying in (this is after TPW let the ratio get WAY off in a bunch of pineywood counties from lack of a season for them...could lower doe numbers cause more bucks to be visible? There's also the topic of price point of leases that weed out folks.... There's just a lot of variable involved and IMHO the shift started pre-ARs.

Been on a place like that and still go hunt it yearly as a guest. Majority of bucks 3-6 are going to be <13 inside. I've shot 2 bucks off the place, one 4, the other 5..one was a "cull" at 9"..one was a "mgmt" buck that went 127 @ 10.5" inside as an 8pt.

would I say that's normal..nope, but you'll have pockets of ticked off people because of county-wide blanket rules.

here's a typical deer for there...guy got fined for it b/c it was either 12.5 or 12.75, and was his 3rd buck, so club rule was it needed to be over 13".



'nother one... (weighed over 200#)..not the best of pic etiquette

As I have said I take those at their word that ARs may not work well in some areas. Unfortunately none of us have precise facts and figures to present.

Personally, I fail to see how a rule that has the simple effect of letting young bucks get a little age on them could be anything but a positive.

And ARs do have this: They have been in place in some counties for a decade or more and many other areas for several years (5+). There are hundreds of thousands of hunters in the areas where they have been put in place. They are overwhelmingly supported in those areas. Texas deer hunters are not a bunch of wallflowers-if ARs were having a devastating or negative effect on deer hunting they would make it known in no uncertain terms. This has not happened.

This alone speaks volumes about their efficacy. They work and they are here to stay.

A lot of them it doesn't apply to, they realize it's flawed and switch over to MLD, which is the standard response on here. A lot of counties were 1 buck, now 2 buck...and some 2 (of any kind) now 13" & a spike, which are easy finds. This is of course after the long spell screw up over doe harvest and herd structure. Some folks would like to do things right and not have to go back to fix those state imposed screw ups. If their blanket mgmt worked, I'd bet your big neighbor wouldn't be sitting around 1:8.

Tyler County was a 2 buck/2 doe County before AR's and I think they could have improved the age structure by just lowering bag limits to 1 buck/1 doe instead of AR blanket rule!!!

I dont give a rats pututy about horns but i do about the numbers! Deer were abundant before AR with a few nice bucks around and lots of small 4pts and 6pts and lots of does. Im all for AR and getting bigger bucks but since TPW had to stick in the spike tage and the 2 doe tags they did nothing in my area than contribute the down fall of the herd. To many deer are being taken period. I have shot 3 deer in the 5 or 6yrs that AR has been in play and the numbers of deer go down every year. You cant make your neighbor stop killing deer if TPW says they can legally do it! The ONLY way is to limit the tags they can use. All me and seadog and the others want is to increase the numbers of deer we see and stop killing off the young spikes and all the does that will have the next generation of bucks and does. Believe it or not we want the same as u pro AR guys except it aint working in our areas and we think we can fix it by lowering the amount of deer that be taken in our countys. We have said it many times before; IF ITS WORKING FOR YOU THATS GREAT BUT IT AINT WORKING FOR US! All we want to do is fix it for us and have the same chance at some big bucks that yall have .

Several people in this thread have already said they work great in our Counties even though they don't live nor hunt in said County. I wonder what kind of magic they used to determine this? On one hand you have people that hunt in the County saying they don't work and on the other hand you have people that don't live or hunt there saying they work great. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who knows what they're talking about. The problem is they act just like my little sister used to when we were kids. When she realized she was wrong in an argument she would avoid all questions from then on and keep saying the same thing over and over in hopes that I would just go away. AR's suck where I hunt and are doing damage. That's a fact, not a theory like the pro AR guys have about it.

They could have left things alone and it would have been fine. There's a reason the majority of that county didn't need restocking and a lot has to do with ppl not being able to shoot what they can't see bc the woods are too thick for the dog hunters to even shoot them out.

My neighbor ain't gonna manage squat no matter what. Neither are most "neighbors". So, ARs at least make them leave the forkies and little 6s and 8s alone so they can grow.

Like I say y'all may be right on the spike overharvest and narrow rack selection arguments in some areas. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on those because I just haven't seen it. I have read several reputable studies that say it's virtually impossible to change gene pool structure in native deer herds so that augers against those scenarios.

If ARs keep the shoot em all crowd from killing the young bucks and those who want more intense/precise management go MLD that seems like a win-win to me. Like I say, I just know what I see on my place and the positives I hear about ARs.

My gut tells me in areas that have problems ARs are easy to blame when more likely than not other factors are at play.

Like I said I don't have studies or figures but neither do you. I have stated my thoughts. I grew up in east TX, have hunted there for 40 plus years, and have owned 400 acres there going on 10 years now.I talk to people and hear what they say. They work great in my area and others say the same.Those things are not "theories" or "magic".That's about all I can do or know short of being a wildlife biologist.

You accuse people of ill motives, stupidity, immaturity, etc. Yet from what I have seen you are the first to resort to name calling and insults. You always just come down to "I am right and you are an idiot". That's not an argument it's just pounding your fist on the table.

You're right it's not a theory. It's hearsay. What name have I called you? You don't know your arse from your elbow when it comes to where I hunt but you're the first one to jump in and say how great ARs are here. You avoid any and all questions and spew second hand knowledge. I did call you selfish because I believe you are. I offered up a plan that would only benefit kids and seniors and you still said no. I guess I should not expect better from people. Especially ones that voted a regulation into place and didn't even know the very regulation that is supposed to allow bucks to age instead allows 2 yearling bucks to be killed. If I voted blindly for a regulation that contradicts itself at every turn I suppose I might defend it blindly also.

"Selfish." "Screw loose." "Don't know your arse from your elbow."

Basically anyone who disagrees with you is to be ignored, their experiences summarily dismissed, and insulted.

Too many hoops to jump through on MLD and quite a few folks would rather not have to deal with a gov agency just to hunt. FWIW, the last MLD lease I was on still allowed a kid's first buck to be anything they wanted it to be.

Since you bring up the whole can't change genetics, then why the need for the spike tag as a means to cull when it is deemed the buck numbers are already low. I see a lot more of them spike tags getting used once doe days are over...off hand I can think of 6 ppl who killed spikes off your neighbors place.

Will ARs protect a percentage of bucks...sure. Can it open the door to get twice as many shot...yep. Will there be some bucks that never get shot...yep. Will there be yearlings shot...yep. Do ppl now have more opportunity to kill deer that are in trouble with extra seasons..yep (though I won't complain about the additional youth opportunities...I'd give them all archery season & month of Jan if I could).

Here's a scenario for you

You are the boss of an electrician crew and you need to hire another electrician.

1st applicant is an electrician and has been doing electrical work for 30 years.

2nd applicant has a friend who is an electrician and he also reads about electrical work sometimes.

Who would you hire?

No sir, just anyone that disagrees with me about hunting at a place they have never laid eyes on. If the shoe fits....

aint life fun?

If I were you I'd be trying to rope that buck so you can tie him to a tree

The shoe has never fit. If you actually read what is there instead of reacting to want you think is there I have never challenged what you say about conditions at your own place. In fact, I have accepted what you say as true.My discussions have regarded ARs generally and Rusk county as a whole. In fact, a quick check of the TBG awards shows Rusk county to be well represented. Again, I see and get texted pics of big deer from Rusk county every year. None of that is "magic". It is fact.

Now, I have surmised that my belief is that many of the problems many see on their own places could be due to other factors, but each time I have done so have noted it as surmising (albeit based on the reasons I have given).

Unlike you, I have never stated I have all the answers. But at least I engage in reasonable discussion.

i thought about going to little eastfield juco up the hwy and trying to buy a couple roofie's to put in the chum pile the night before opening morning, then just hope he dont make it over the fence....

If your reading comprehension were better you would see my background puts me in the "1st Applicant" category. But you only see what you want to see.

I'm hanging polident over a cpl scrapes.

A lot there. Again, the spike tag was a sop to the meat boys. I don't see it abused. Heck, there is a raging debate among the best deer men in the state about the need to shoot spikes anyway. The whole "spike tag abuse" deal is a tempest in a teapot IMO. I get opinions differ.

The only fenceline neighbor I have is a 40 acre scope of woods that is lightly hunted anyway so I don't know your reference there. If it is Boggy they are doing something right. Heck, whoever it is more power to 'em because my place is doing great-maybe goes to show spike killing is the way to go.

Edit: Maybe you're talking about the NF? My biggest "neighbor"....

Really? So how many deer per sit did you average seeing in rusk county per ARs? How many do you see per sit in rusk county after ARs? I'm not talking about your buddies, you.

You say there could be a problem on my lease but ARs are not the cause. Nothing else has changed. That would lead a reasonable person to the conclusion that ARs are the problem. Take a 1 deer county to a 4 deer county and expect the numbers to stay up when they were mediocre to start with? Brilliant!

If you really want to debate this I would make it very easy on you. I could ask one question at a time and you answer it. Then you ask me one question at a time and I'll answer it. You want to? I highly doubt you do because you don't answer any questions about it. You only skirt around it and pretend to know it all. So, you want to debate one question and answer at a time? You can start or I will?

i'll go....emmitt or barry?

I hunt East Texas, and I didn't see a buck last season. OK, I did see one spike and a lot of does. This is in reality because a neighbor decided to cut timber off his property....which started a week before deer season! Seriously!!
A lot of the hunters in my area are still in the old way of "if its brown, its down" way of thinking.
IMO, trail cams do more for taking mature bucks, if you see one on camera, I think your more likely to let smaller bucks pass in fear of maybe spooking the one your hunting.
I took what I thought at the moment to be a nice 8pt a couple of years ago. To my dismay, it did have ground shrinkage, and when measured it was legal...but barely! lol
With that said, I have camera's now, and I KNOW what bucks are in the area! It will be a big advantage when decision time comes this year for sure!!

Was talking about NF....there really is no debating spike killing if the topic is carrying buck numbers over, after all, there's a structure health problem, not a gene problem being addressed. And you have to assume people will use those spike tags b/c it's a buck that can be shot and people will shoot the first one they see...just like they shot the first one they saw pre-ARs. If there was no cultural change in hunting that would have fixed the "problem" on its on them how in the world could AR win in the popular vote.

Cams over the years have shown there were plenty of older bucks, you just rarely saw them. Ppl not running cams would just assume there were no bucks.

Can you beat a "Dead Horse" to death that doesn't meet ARs?

on the bright side, if the neighbor lets that clearcut do its thing, in 2 years it'll provide good bedding cover and browse.

Can't buy into the last sentence. You're just saying there was never a problem anyway and cams are the magic bullet causing people to let little bucks walk, not ARs? That contradicts what I have seen from both a macro and micro perspective. Yes, I see bigger bucks on my cams now-but I also see bigger bucks on the hoof now too. They are smart and elusive,yes, but not magicians. I manage to lay eyes on most of the bucks I have on camera at one time or another. I think you do too based on the pics you share but IDK....

Over and over and over again pre-ARs the lament was "I almost never see a mature buck." And "My neighbor shoots every basket rack he sees so I feel like I have to do the same." People were literally wanting TPWD to protect the young bucks from the outside-so that is just what they did.

In the pre AR meetings the "popular vote" was for ARs hands-down. I am convinced they would overwhelmingly win in a popular vote today-everywhere they are in place.

I'm actually getting the sense that the real problem with ARs many have is just the "I just don't want the government all up in my business."

I get that-but that's a whole 'nother subject and a philosophical debate rather than results-based.

I'm tard and about said all I know to say. I love everybody.

The year before AR's in Tyler County, I saw 15-20 deer regularly with probably 8 or 10 bucks, (4 mature)!!! The next year, 1st year as AR, I saw about 15!!! The second and third year of AR's, I saw 8 deer with 4 bucks, (2 mature but 12" to 12.5" spread), and I shot a spike the third year!!! In the fourth and fifth years of AR's I saw a total of 5 deer both years combined, (I shot a doe last year)!!! I saw these deer both in person AND game cam!!! AR's don't work everywhere!!!

That last sentence is easy to buy into bc the same folks who never saw any bucks, believed they didn't have any would usually be the same folks who complained about only seeing does and their fawns..<<<<<I'm a firm believer in the Immaculate Conception, but don't buy that it happens in the deer kingdom. I see most bucks I have on cam, but our property is set up to do such. That's the luxury of deer being comfortable on a pasture that's been there forever and their need to see what does are out there...and there being heavy competition for those available does. Some can manage to bypass all of that and show up on cam while I'm on stand...then there's the nocturnal ones that are as old as stxranchman. Now had I not bow hunted, there'd be 4 mature deer I never would have seen in person. And have a place I'm working on that was 288 acres that was hunted by 5 guys... Oddly enough the first year cam survey provided me with 5 bucks...(4yearlings..1 3yo)..despite being AR for a while. This past season cam survey showed 28 different bucks of various ages. Now did AR do that or a sudden change in mgmt philosophy?

All us anti AR hunters must be brown and down hunters cause TPW in there ultimate knowledge gave us 4 tags instead of one so they must love us! I feel so much better now that i know they love me. I always hear you guys say that it stops the young bucks from getting killed yet now the bag limit is TWICE what it was and alot if not most of the deer reaching 13in are two and a half year olds and the spikes are one and a half year olds! No way in heck does that math work in my head! IM NOT THE BRIGHTEST BULB IN THE BOX I GUESS.