Texas Hunting Forum

DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!!

Posted By: fastliberator

DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/07/08 06:45 PM

WE started out the rifle season seeing plenty of deer. Several good hill country bucks, 2 exceptional, and several young 8's. Every since the second weekend, we noticed 3 new stands and feeders next to our fence. They were facing away from the fence, but pretty close. After the second weekend, we were maybe seeing 1-3 does if any at all! What the heck is going on, this is the hill country, there are supposed to be deer everywhere.

I know you cant be pi$$ed off about that. But, every morning and evening, we were hearing 3-5 shots. So that makes 6-10 deer possibly being killed. The land next to ours is less thatn half the size of our lease. And that was only the shots we heard when we were there. No telling what was going on the rest of the time.

Anyway, I called our land owner and told him about it. He said he would contact the other land owners around and find out what was going on. Land owner is a Lawyer in Austin, and doesnt come out to the place very much.

I am pretty sure that they are day leasing over there. No other explanation to the deer being virtually gone over night. And all the shooting. I try to stay away from that side of the lease now because who knows what is going on over there.


Now me and the other 3 guys are getting off and looking for a new lease. If anyone knows of a good one with 4 spots for management minded hunters, let me know.

Posted By: TexasEd

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/07/08 07:49 PM

High Fence it

Posted By: FoxTrot

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/07/08 08:44 PM

Sorry to hear that. I know that I would be PISSED.

Posted By: UtopiaTexasHunter

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/07/08 08:49 PM

I had 3 hunts in a row ruined in Junction this year by day hunters about 100 yards away. I was just waiting for them to shoot over the fence towards my feeder, which is only about 125 yards away from their blind.

Posted By: redfishon

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/07/08 11:26 PM

Chain the day lease gate with new locks and chains every weekend.. They will get the idea..

Posted By: mustafa

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/07/08 11:36 PM

about the only thing you can do is load up camp and move on. that sucks. if i didnt have a lease this i would probably be one of those dreded day hunters. lol

Posted By: jp

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/08/08 03:23 AM

That is why I like big ranch country. When I hunt out west or north west Its hard to here a shot. Our new place in oklahoma, its hard to fix fence or due any chores with out orange on and the radio blasting to make sure people know im there. I just wish more hunters were worried about population numbers, deer age, and horns. Meat hunters are what made east texas deer hunting so good.

Posted By: dogcatcher

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/08/08 03:40 AM

Quote:

Chain the day lease gate with new locks and chains every weekend.. They will get the idea..




You do this more than once and you will might be getting a visit from a law enforcement officer.

Posted By: Crazyhorse

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/08/08 01:02 PM

Not directed at you DC.

I just love it that so many wonderful folks have such a low opinion of day hunters.

Makes me feel really good since that is about the only way I will be hunting in the future, except for invites from folks.

Anyone ever stop to think that just maybe the person(s) running the operation might be more at fault than the hunters??????

I will admit that not all day hunters are playing by the rules, but I will also maintain that all day hunters are not low life S.O.B.s that need to be denied access to a place to hunt.

Some folks may end up day hunting due to circumstance and not by choice. JMO.

Posted By: UtopiaTexasHunter

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/08/08 01:46 PM

I don't have anything against day hunters. I did get a little pissed at first, but hay....if it is that big of a problem, maybe I should buy more land, right?



Posted By: Tx_Phantom

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/08/08 01:54 PM

Thanks for that CH. And for the record, I always follow the rules to the best of my ability.

Many of us do not have the financial ability to be on a lease. Extremely cheap and free hunting invitations are the only way I can enjoy this sport.

Posted By: tkuehn5410

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/08/08 02:57 PM

I know how you feel. We have 1000 acres in Dickens County and have had the lease for 3 years letting some of the younger deer walk to get to be mature deer. Through game camera pics and spotting we haven't seen many of the deer recently only to find out that the neighbor does guided hunts for 3 days at a time. While these aren't day hunters there are a good number of 3 year olds we have been letting walk only to never see them again. My worst memory was this season when I had a 140 inch 10 pointer in front that was only a 3 year old and let it pass by only to hear a shot about 2 minutes later from the fence it crossed to. We had a 4 year old rule for shooters at our place and are going to decide what to do in the upcoming season.

Posted By: Crazyhorse

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/08/08 03:34 PM

Quote:

maybe I should buy more land, right?




Not Hardly!

It should not be a problem at all.

The folks running the day lease operation should try to run the operation so as not to impact the surrounding land owners and their hunters unduly.

Mind you, I haven't day hunted in a long time, and don't even know if anyone is still running the type day hunts where I could be out there hunting mid-week, not on the weekends.

That may give you an idea as to how long it has been, along with the fact that the last day hunt I can remember doing was in Mills county, and it was $50.00 a day, no minimum on days and you could fill every tag that was legal for the county.

Back when I was day hunting I could get on those places mid-week and would have the entire place to myself.

From what I have seen the past 5 years or so, between going to a hit or miss day lease at the prices they are charging with a two day minimum, and going out to something like BayouRat and Maggie had going on this year, I think I will go with Tim and Maggie's set-up. JMO.

I understand perfectly people upset with a day hunt operation next to them, even if they are not trying to manage the deer on their place, but, it is still the fault of the person running the operation if things get out of hand. AJMO.

Posted By: fastliberator

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/08/08 04:18 PM

I am not mad at the hunters at all. I can understand there point of doing it. They may just get a couple days a year to try and shoot a deer, and by no means wants to pay the money for a lease. I dont blame them at all.

It just sucks that it is just 75 yards from my wifes stand and 300 from mine. I passed on several good deer and a few nice young ones, and a cool non typical. All in hopes that they would be even better next year. My wife passed on a really nice 10 because I told her to wait for next year.

I put a lot of money and time into that lease it being my first year on it. Hoping to manage the deer heard for the future. It is just frustrating because of all the effort.

I guess I am just venting.

Posted By: Crazyhorse

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/08/08 04:30 PM

Venting is good, Hell most folks on here think that is all I do.

Again, I blame the person running the operation on stuff like blinds and feeders being too close to fences.

In fact the place might be actually too small to run a good day lease operation, that happens.

Maybe if enough of their neighbors discuss the matter with the folks that are running the place considerations could be worked out where the day lease operator might actually be able to modify his operation that would actually cause less problems for the neighbors while making his operation more attractive to potential clients.

Just a thought.

Posted By: sig226fan (Rguns.com)

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/08/08 04:32 PM

It would have been nice to know that going into the season...

Posted By: fastliberator

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/08/08 04:57 PM

That is exactly my point. From what I have seen, the landowner has been good about putting stands with no windows looking across the fence, feeders are towrd the middle of his place. So I think he must be trying to do it right. But with a small war going off and I am sure that most of the day hunters are meat hunters, so they shoot any deer they see. I dont blame them, I would do it. Heck, I have done it. But like Sig said, I would not have gotten on here knowing that there would be a day lease next door.

I dont think there is very much land there maybe 200 acres at best. But more like 100 acres.

Posted By: texasd

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/08/08 05:15 PM

HOW CLOSE ARE THEY HUNTING TO FENCE? THERE ARE LAWS IN PLACE THAT RESTRICT HOW CLOSE A PERSON CAN HUNT NEAR A FENCE.

Posted By: sig226fan (Rguns.com)

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/08/08 05:24 PM

Quote:

HOW CLOSE ARE THEY HUNTING TO FENCE? THERE ARE LAWS IN PLACE THAT RESTRICT HOW CLOSE A PERSON CAN HUNT NEAR A FENCE.




Never saw that before, where can I find them? I think there are laws for roads, and for bullets crossing a fence, but I never saw one about hunting close to a fence.

Posted By: Greg

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/08/08 05:25 PM

What laws are you talking about? I was under the impression that if I owned or leased land that I could hunt every inch of it so long as my bullets don't cross the fence. Are you saying that you can't hunt all of your property?

Posted By: Txduckman

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/08/08 05:26 PM

Stick a high fence up. That is exactly what my buddy did in Bosque. The fenced about a 1 mile side b/c the guy started day hunts. They don't really manage the place but didn't want all the deer shot either or people crossing fences. They still have miles of low fence.

Posted By: NeonDion

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/08/08 06:46 PM

There are laws in place that mandate the min distance you can hunt from the fenceline - In Mexico!
"texasd" is from South Texas so that's probably what he was thinking.
I've definitely never heard of any such restrictions for Texas.

Posted By: kyotee1

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/08/08 08:03 PM

There is no regulation on the distance a feeder or blind, stand or what-have-you, from a property/boundary/fenceline.

That was proposed in 2 years ago through the Legislative process and they were unable "nail it down" on what was a feeder, stand, blind, etc. since old outhouses, metal buildings, water towers, windmills, car bodies, bird feeders, livestock feeders, hummingbird, squirrel feeders, etc. could all fall into the same category. They could not define what a feeder, stand or blind would constitute for the regulation. So it didn't make it...the regulation on your projectile crossing a fenceline did though.

Common courtesy and respect for their property should play a big role in stand and feeder placement, but we all know that isn't the case with the majority of landowners or leasors...especially the very small acreages where everyone and their family wants to hunt on 5 acres tracts!

Posted By: HornSlayer

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/08/08 10:41 PM

A MLDP should be required for all day lease operations. It is not fair for one landowner or operator to harvest all the deer in a giving area. Alternatively, we could lobby for land use restrictions for neighbors of WMA's and MLDP holders. Make it where day lease operations are forbiddon on lands adjoning WMA's and MLDP holders.

Posted By: Crazyhorse

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/08/08 10:51 PM

So do you also think hunting should be more regulated on smaller acreages than larger???

Now be very careful before you answer, because unless you are a land owner, you are basically suggesting legislation telling a land owner what they could and could not do with their property.

Also you are suggesting that size limits on the amount of land that can be hunted be instituted.

Is that what you are suggesting????

Posted By: HornSlayer

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/09/08 02:12 AM

Quote:

Now be very careful before you answer, because unless you are a land owner, you are basically suggesting legislation telling a land owner what they could and could not do with their property.

Also you are suggesting that size limits on the amount of land that can be hunted be instituted.

Is that what you are suggesting????




Communities all over the state tell land owners what they can and can't do with property all the time. Try putting a headshop or liquer store next to a School. As far as size limits on hunting land you will have to explain what your getting at?

Posted By: Crazyhorse

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/09/08 02:28 AM

No, Sorry there is a big difference between some one owning a lot in town or a 3 to 5 acre ranchette in the suburbs.

We are not talking about headshops and liquor stores and you know it.

You are talking about land owners being forced to join a program, that depending on the amount of land they own, they might not be able to join.

To be included in the MLD and LAMPS programs requires certain specified amounts of land, or did you know that?

So what you said was that to be able to operate a Day Hunt set up, land owners would have to obtain MLD or LAMPS permits, therefore if they did not have the required acreage, they could not participate in the program therefore they could not set up and do day hunts.

Now that is what you said, now is that what you mean???

Posted By: HornSlayer

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/09/08 02:48 AM

I think so? I know of some places exactly like you descride along the banks of the Colorado River. During drought years hundreds of deer migrate through the river bottom in search of access to the river. A day lease operation there could devastate the deer populations on surrounding lands.

Think about it, a day lease operation has the poetential to put alot more pressure on the resources of the land. Requiring the operator to obtain a permit will insure the land can handle the added hunting pressure. Tell me this, I know of a 10 acre tract owned by guy in the middle of a 12,000 acre ranch. Would it be right for the guy on the 10 acres to run a day lease operation and take 100 deer a year?

Posted By: rackdout

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/09/08 02:54 AM

This year a group of hunters leased the land next to our land. The problem is they put their camp on the fence line, next to a food plot we hunt. We have two tower blinds on the field. The so called hunters brought in campers, built a fire pit, outhouse, you name it. We informed the hunters that we hunt the field, and it was dangerous for their camp to be so close inwhich they did nothing. On one ocassion I am sitting in my blind when I see one of the hunters drive up to the camp about an hour before dark, and got out making all kinds of noise and cleaned a deer next to the field I was hunting. Needless to say it scared all the deer off the field. To top it off, the hunters put a deer blind so close to the fence I could reach across and touch it. Just wanted you to know your not the only one with idiot hunters next to you.

Posted By: jacksboroTX

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/09/08 03:06 AM

happened to some friends of mine and then they high fenced that side and no more problems good luck

Posted By: Letsgo

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/09/08 03:23 AM

As a land owner with several small hunting properties with high pressure around me it drives my crazy!!!!!!!!!!! I have been forced to limit the number of deer we harvest and thus the number of friends I can bring out to deer hunt because I am afraid we (the neighbors) are going to take out too many deer. One of my neighbors has about 20 acres and takes upwards of 10+ deer in a year. We have a little over 500 acreas and we only took 10 this whole year.

In previous years I have been on leases where I did not see many deer and I promised myself that once I owned land this would never happen again. It is amazing what happens when you do not shoot everything that moves just to fill your tags.
So yes, I would love to see some restrictions in place.

Posted By: HornSlayer

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/09/08 03:43 AM

Quote:

No, Sorry there is a big difference between some one owning a lot in town or a 3 to 5 acre ranchette in the suburbs.

We are not talking about headshops and liquor stores and you know it.




We are talking about the same thing. I see little difference between a day lease operation and the examples I gave. All three provide recreation to others, all three are commercial enterprises. All three are businesses. Nope there are no differences here, sorry.

Posted By: Crazyhorse

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/09/08 11:36 AM

There is a world of difference and if you don't see it, you are sorely in need of an education.

What you are propsing, would mean that if someone owned say 200 acres and wanted to start a day hunt operation, they would have to get in to either the MLD or LAMPS programs with TP&W.

From my knowledge of things, 200 acres will not qualify for either program.

Basically you are saying that unless a place is of a certain size, they should not be able to conduct business on their land as they choose.

Now, are you trying to tell me that is not what you are saying?

Because the problem with you little scenario, is who is going to set the standards for how large a piece of property has to be to not just set up a day lease operation, but even be allowed to lease it out for hunting period.

Your not the first person to come up with such an idea.

People have been on here many times in the past, complaining about small propety hunters hurting the hunting on the larger place.

The same thing keeps coming up, Who Is Going To Set The Standards???

To some folks 200 acres may be too small of an area to allow hunting on, others may think anything 500 or under unless there are just one or two hunters and they habve to develope the same management strategy or accept the same management strategy their larger neighbors are using.

Trying to compare what goes on inside a town or city and what property owners can and can not do, with telling someone that the acreage they bought and paid for and built up, and that has maybe been in their family for generations can only be managed for the benefit of their neighbors and the hunters leasing the neighbors property, is about as assinign as it gets.

Are you a Native Texan or a New Texan, or have you just lived all you life on concrete?

Even though we may not agree with how they choose to manage their property Sir, I think if you will pay attention to the various conversations on the subject of land owners right and the ability to manage their property as they see fit, you will notice that the majority of us on this site, support those rights.

Posted By: Hoytman

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/09/08 11:58 AM

AMEN, I only have 47acres but if i want my whole family to go hunting im gonna do it! And untill somebody starts paying my taxes and land payments im going to make the decisions, not the state or my next door neighbors. As i posted on another page C.H. you and lora can hunt at my place anytime and like the fishing its free.

Posted By: Crazyhorse

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/09/08 12:16 PM

Quote:

So yes, I would love to see some restrictions in place.




Who Do You Propose To Set Those Restrictions?????

TP&W??????

The Surrounding Larger Land Owners????

How Much Land Do You Own 500 acres, 1000 or 1500, are you the major land owner in the county???????

If you aren't, someone that owns more land then you could decide your place isn't big enough or that 10 deer a year is too many for you to take, how would you feel about the situation then????

Posted By: chestnut

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/09/08 12:28 PM

I sympathize with you Letsgo.

I think the answer for you is going to have to be to high-fence the place.

CH we know the answer is that people should only be shooting the number of deer that THEIR land can support. This number will vary per acre around the state, but there IS a number in each case.

Posted By: Crazyhorse

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/09/08 01:09 PM

Quote:

CH we know the answer is that people should only be shooting the number of deer that THEIR land can support. This number will vary per acre around the state, but there IS a number in each case.




True, there is a number, but as with what I have been saying all along, Who Will Be In Charge Of Deciding That Number????

Does the fact that I have 400 low fenced acres and want to see 15 or 20 deer every time I go out, over-ride or negate the fact that you want to fill every tag you have on the 50 acres you own that adjoin me?????

Do you think so, I Don't.

In fact on 450 acres, neither one of us has more than maybe 2 resident animals on the entire 450 acres, and I will bet that neither of those two reside on the 50 acres.

Do they cross it, yes.

Do they go to your feeder that you buy corn to fill, yes.

Do they drink water out of your pond, yes.

Is it your right to fill every tag you have and invite other folks out to fill their tags, yes.

Is it my right if I get tired of you doing that to try and get rules and regulations enacted to stop you, yes, but that just means that my neighbor on the other side that owns 4000 acres can do the same thing to me.

One thing I can do to stop you from killing "My Deer" is to put up a high fence, that is something I have a right to do.

This is a terribly convoluted issue. The biggest problem being that this really does not have as much to do with people shooting too many deer as it does with people being interested in horns more than anything else and wanting everyone else to act the same way.

Do You Or Anyone Else On This Site Believe Things Would Be The Way they Are, If White Tail Deer Did Not Have Antlers????

Well, I Don't!

Some folks are looking at a single blade of grass and not seeing the pasture in this issue.

When anyone starts setting size or amount limits on the area that can be hunted, or the numbers of animals other than established county/state limits that can be taken off that area, we will end up in worse shape with the deer herd than we are at this time.

The only way those numbers can be established is with Physical Surveys.

I can take you out to some 200 to 400 acre places around the state and dare you or anyone else to find a deer on the place.

Does that mean that place should not be hunted?

No, because game cam picks show that there are a lot of deer on there at night.

Conversely, is seeing a large number of deer each time you go out on say 400 acres a good thing, no, especially if the reason they are concentrated on that 400 acres is due to supplemental feeding and food plots.

The issue as far as I am concerned still stands, we Do Not need rules or regulations passed to try and force land owners to manage their properties for the benefit of their neighbors or the people leasing their neighbors land. JMO.

Posted By: chestnut

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/09/08 02:18 PM

CH, I'm with you on the managing for horns business. But I think this is a different issue.

There's just something not right about taking 10 deer a year off 20 acres.

Posted By: sig226fan (Rguns.com)

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/09/08 02:24 PM

Well, as a land owner and manager/outfitter, I see both sides. I hope that we (me and mine) always are ethical and hospitible to our neighbors. But, if I want a nice quiet stand next to your fence...then it is my land too.

I don't think I would put a camp there, nor mess it up for others. I have placed a blind next to a fence though...no window to the other land, just three, one down each side of MY fence, on toward a feeder 150 yards off a fence line.

I've said it before, on small places, I'd rather have the stands on the edge shooting in, than in the middle of 20 acres shooting outward...

I just think it goes back to being ethical and doing what's right.....problem is someone hasn't taught these folks what's right.

I am opposed to legislating where someone can hunt on their own land.

As for feeding/plots etc....if you can draw them off, then the neighbors need to feed more...

Posted By: HornSlayer

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/09/08 04:10 PM

Once you become a commercial hunting operation there should be a higher level of restrictions to insure the well being of the resource. Forcing day lease operators to develope a plan is not only logical but fair to all other users of the resource.

By your argument, all you would have to do is buy a boat and it would be ok to catch all the fish in the sea. There are no differences between commercial fisherman, commercial hunters, Headshops or Liquor stores; they all have their own time and place and they all are in it for the money!

Posted By: Crazyhorse

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/09/08 05:17 PM

Not if the herd in the area can stand it.

Believe me, there are places around the state where 20 deer could be taken off a place and you would not be able to tell it.

Everything is NOT the same around the state.

In too many areas around Texas deer populations are artficially high, due to such things as supplemental feeding or being next to older sub-burban developement where deer live in an almost sanctuary type situation.

Should a person be taking that many deer or even 10 deer off the 20 acres, probably not.

Do they have the right to, Damn Straight Skippy.

Do folks that are leasing places and trying to manage for horns have a problem with their neighbors that don't manage for horns and will shoot anything even if it is only 3 or 4 animals, YES.

I agree that land owners should act ethically, and not do stuff to screw their neighbors over, But That Works BOTH Ways, Not Just One.

If one group wants to try and manage a low fenced property for horn, that is THEIR business.

It Is NOT Their Business, To Try And Have Their Desires Mandated To Folks That Do Not Care About Antler Size.

Posted By: chestnut

Hornslayer and CH - 01/09/08 05:36 PM

Excellent point, Hornslayer. You go commercial and you need to be regulated.

CH - yes they have a legal right to -- but we're discussing whether the law or regs should be changed. If it is changed -- then they won't have a legal right to.

No area in Texas can support 10 deer coming off 20 acres. Even in the Hill Country the deer densities are less than 1 deer per 3 acres.

You missed the part about this not being, for me, any thing to do with managing deer. It's about not decimating the deer herd.
The TPWD attempts to "right size" the deer kill for each county by setting bag limits. That has to be assuming that hunting pressure is not taken to the extreme. Otherwise, imagine if enough hunters were brought in they could remove every single deer and yet stay within legal bag limits. That's obviously not the way it was intended to work.

A much better system would be to stipulate "1 deer for x number of acres can be removed". Then, if you have less than x number of acres you can only take 1 deer and not even every year. For example if it were 1 deer for every 40 acres, the guy with 20 acres could only take one deer every other year.

Posted By: chestnut

Re: Hornslayer and CH - 01/09/08 05:39 PM

Another way of thinking about it is to imagine this 20 acres were high-fenced. How many deer, and how often, could be removed from the herd that that land could support, without destroying the herd.

Posted By: texasd

Re: Hornslayer and CH - 01/09/08 06:06 PM

on the law about fences... you will have to contact the gw on that, all i know is we got in trouble with a fellow next to our ranch when we where bird hunting and he called the sheriff and the gw and we where informed that we had to stay so many feet from the fence line... dont exactly remember the distance... its not what u would call an enforced issue unless some one trys to enforce it.... but really pissed me off , cause one we werent bothering no one and about a week later him and his family was doing the same thing at the back of our property next to the stock tank....

Posted By: Mr. Clean

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/10/08 10:28 PM

Quote:

Not directed at you DC.

I just love it that so many wonderful folks have such a low opinion of day hunters.

Makes me feel really good since that is about the only way I will be hunting in the future, except for invites from folks.

Anyone ever stop to think that just maybe the person(s) running the operation might be more at fault than the hunters??????




Day Hunters ARE NOT the problem....land owners are the problem. No communication is the biggest problem. We have a small lease...300 acres...in rural Hood Co. Good deer, hogs, Turkey, ponds, fish etc. We are bordered by one ARSE-hole' and got sub leased hunters behind us. The first thing we did was meet the landowners and as many of the other hunters as possible. Our goal this year is to try and coax the deer to "reside" on our place by planting food plots...heavy with Oats, Peas and Wheat. Any thoughts?

Posted By: chestnut

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/10/08 10:45 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Not directed at you DC.

I just love it that so many wonderful folks have such a low opinion of day hunters.

Makes me feel really good since that is about the only way I will be hunting in the future, except for invites from folks.

Anyone ever stop to think that just maybe the person(s) running the operation might be more at fault than the hunters??????




Day Hunters ARE NOT the problem....land owners are the problem. No communication is the biggest problem. We have a small lease...300 acres...in rural Hood Co. Good deer, hogs, Turkey, ponds, fish etc. We are bordered by one ARSE-hole' and got sub leased hunters behind us. The first thing we did was meet the landowners and as many of the other hunters as possible. Our goal this year is to try and coax the deer to "reside" on our place by planting food plots...heavy with Oats, Peas and Wheat. Any thoughts?




Yep, high-fence your place and drop the food plots and any feeders.

Posted By: Crazyhorse

Day Lease Next Door!!!!!!!!! - 01/10/08 11:42 PM

White-tailed Deer
Open Season (west of IH 35): November 3-January 6. Special Late General Season: January 7-January 20 (antlerless and spike buck deer only). Bag limit: 5 deer, no more than 2 bucks, all seasons combined.

Open Season (east of IH 35): November 3-January 6. Buck bag limit: 2, to include no more than one with an inside spread of 13 inches or greater. A legal buck deer is a deer having at least one unbranched antler, or an inside spread of 13 inches or greater. The inside spread requirement does not apply to any buck having an unbranched antler. These provisions do not apply on properties for which Level 2 or Level 3 MLDPs have been issued. Antlerless bag limit: 2, by antlerless permit only.

That is why we have regs like this, one side of the county 5 deer no AR's, the other side of the county, it is 4 deer/does by permit only/AR's in place and I-35 is the didviding line.

That makes loads of sense to me.

It would take more than all the hunters in Texas together to decimate the deer herd state wide.

Things you miss out on, is that even with wide open limits in places like North Carolina and Alabama, a deer a day and they have as long or longer seasons than we do, their deer herd is not being decimated.

The average person/hunter, will at most take 3 deer a year, and that number may be high.

Look at how many folks state that they basically hunt for horns and don't eat deer meat.

Yes, Lora and I can use 10 deer a year, but we are the exception, to the extreme.

In some areas yes, the herd can be impacted, but in some areas no.

Humans are the only major predator of deer over most of the U.S..

How much have you read about carrying capacity of the range?

Parts of Texas are at or below the actual carrying capacity of the range/available habitat.

Parts of Texas are at or above saturation level. Too many mouths to feed.

You seem to think that if the dogs were turned loose, it would be a wholesale slaughter.

It would not be.

The OP of this was complaining about the impact that the day hunters have on his ability to hunt and shoot what he wants, yet I don't remember him quoting any figures as to exactly how many deer had been taken off that place, merely a guess.

How many times have you hunted a day lease operation?

Over the years I have hunted a few, and even in really good deer country, after the first couple of weeks, the deer go nocturnal and get hard as heck to kill on day leases, especially low fenced ones.

In fact, I would not attempt to hunt a low fence day lease after Dec. 1. The deer get educated and it is hard to kill something after Dec. 1.

Would you, if you owned 20,40, 50 acres or more like being told that you can only kill one deer a year or every other year when you are setting on your porch and watching perhaps dozens of deer eating everything green in sight daily? I don't think so.

I am going to go thru some of the stuff in my research library and see if I can't find some titles of some books you need to check out on deer management and deer population problems.

There is a reason wildlife biologists refer to white tails as Americas Largest Rodent.

Posted By: dogcatcher

Re: Hornslayer and CH - 01/10/08 11:57 PM

Quote:

on the law about fences... you will have to contact the gw on that, all i know is we got in trouble with a fellow next to our ranch when we where bird hunting and he called the sheriff and the gw and we where informed that we had to stay so many feet from the fence line... dont exactly remember the distance... its not what u would call an enforced issue unless some one trys to enforce it.... but really pissed me off , cause one we werent bothering no one and about a week later him and his family was doing the same thing at the back of our property next to the stock tank....




My pennies worth is you were fed a line of and not just a little but a entire truck load. You can walk your fence line anytime you want, day or night. Did the GW or sheriffs department tell you or did the landowner? I doubt if it was the GW, most likely the sheriff's office, maybe a little to much small town politics.

Posted By: jrs_39

Re: Day Lease Next Door!!!!!!!!! - 01/10/08 11:58 PM

When we bought our place we found out after the fact the place next door was day hunting. Up went a high fence on 3 sides. A solution to the problem would be issuing deer tags based on acreage. One deer tag per 50 acres or something to that effect. This would cut down on a lot of high fencing going on that everybody seems to hate. It's tough to manage your deer when the 200 acres next door is killing every buck they see.

Posted By: dogcatcher

Re: Day Lease Next Door!!!!!!!!! - 01/11/08 12:05 AM

The permit idea is a thought, but in some areas where there are literally 1000s of small pieces of property that are deer hunted. These people would not be able to hunt, and then the deer herd would be expanding so fast that it would kill itself off from starvation because the herd decimated the food supply.

There is no answer, but common sense and being a good neighbor could solve most of the problems.

Posted By: passthru

Re: Day Lease Next Door!!!!!!!!! - 01/11/08 12:25 AM

If you dam up a stream across your property and don't allow the water to go downstream and sell it, you can a will face penalties. If you rape the natural resource and rob others of what they have an equal stake to to comercially profit, you should also be punished.
We had the problem of slob hunters with fence lines, stands feeders and four wheelers and you can't fix it but you can get revenge. And it doesn't help.

Posted By: Crazyhorse

Re: Day Lease Next Door!!!!!!!!! - 01/11/08 02:09 AM

The problem I see, and it is the same problem as has been discussed since when I first came on here, is that folks that are trying to manage for horn on low fenced properties want everyone around them to do the same thing.

It does not make one bit of difference if it is a day lease operation next to them or just a family lease with 2 or 3 hunters or so on it.

If those folks are not into trophy management and just shoot anything that comes into their feeders, even though it is legal, the trophy hunters are going to get upset, PERIOD.

What if that Day Lease place is the same size or it is family owned acreage and they are not into mamnaging for trophies and they let all the kids/grandkids/in'laws/friends come out and shoot a deer each and don't care what they shoot?

I can tell you one thing for sure, those trophy hunters next door are gonna be upset.

Do I think some one should kill 8 or 10 or more deer off a 20 acre place, no, not really, but if it is what they want to do, more power to them.

Do I think a family or couple of friends should be able to take every legal deer that comes into their feeders, WITHOUT any of the neighbors or the people leasing their land getting their knickers in a bunch, you betcha.

I have no problem with folks that want to shoot a buck for the wall, UNTIL, they want to impose their desires upon other people.

That Is Wrong, I Don't Care Who You Are.

Posted By: Rwuensch

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/11/08 02:33 AM

Sorry to hear that! Not much you can do but move.

Posted By: chestnut

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/11/08 12:02 PM

dogcatcher - actually it works out the same. 1 x 500 acre piece of land and 25 x 20 acre plots of land would both be allocated the same number of permits. It's just that the small-plot landowners would be on a rotation basis.

Posted By: sig226fan (Rguns.com)

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/11/08 12:18 PM

Quote:

dogcatcher - actually it works out the same. 1 x 500 acre piece of land and 25 x 20 acre plots of land would both be allocated the same number of permits. It's just that the small-plot landowners would be on a rotation basis.





So a guy who works hard and buys 40 acres gets one deer every 12 years or so? Nope, that will never fly.

Posted By: dogcatcher

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/11/08 12:45 PM

With the legislature involved do you really think they have someone smart enough to figure out a rotation system that may last 10 or even 20 years? I seriously doubt it, even a 2 or 3 year rotational permit system would be an accounting nightmare.

Posted By: chestnut

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/11/08 01:02 PM

Quote:

Quote:

dogcatcher - actually it works out the same. 1 x 500 acre piece of land and 25 x 20 acre plots of land would both be allocated the same number of permits. It's just that the small-plot landowners would be on a rotation basis.





So a guy who works hard and buys 40 acres gets one deer every 12 years or so? Nope, that will never fly.




Yes, I think people need to get out of the mindset that they can have access to lots of deer by purchasing small amounts of land like this.

BTW, 40 acres probably would set someone back $3,000 x 40 = $120,000. That's enough to pay $2400/year for a hunting lease for 50 years. Or, it could get you a trophy guided hunt for 24 years.

Posted By: chestnut

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/11/08 01:06 PM

Quote:

With the legislature involved do you really think they have someone smart enough to figure out a rotation system that may last 10 or even 20 years? I seriously doubt it, even a 2 or 3 year rotational permit system would be an accounting nightmare.




I have noticed that most legislators have trouble with 7th grade math and I'm not sure the TPWD personnel are any better, but the way it would work is the TPWD would set up "land entities". For example, every piece of land where hunting was allowable would be placed into a legal entity that would total to some number of acres -- say 250. The permits would be awarded to the entity and it would be up to the owners to decide how these would be distributed.

Posted By: Crazyhorse

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/11/08 01:06 PM

Chestnut, one of us is looking at the pasture and focusing on one blade of grass, the other is seeing the whole pasture.

You have got some suggestions that sound reasonable, until you look at the the big picture.

The big picture on this issue, is the folks, whether it is the land owners or the hunters leasing the place, on the larger piece of property, wanting to control what happens on the smaller properties.

Your scenario of 1 deer taken for every 500 acres. That sounds fine for the folks wanting to shut out the smaller neighboring properties.

Try to push that down the throat of a land owner or hunters in a situation where 4 people are hunting 500 acres and paying 1500.00 to 2500.00 per gun.

Do you really think they are going to abide with that 1 deer for that 500 acres?

I can tell you right now they are not going to do it.

I believe you are looking at the situation fair mindedly and with noble purpose.

I just don't think you are seeing the situation with a real working knowledge of the motives of the players involved.

I could be wrong in some cases, but from what I have seen on here in the past on this issue, looks something like this.

Group of people get together and go out and find a few hundred acres to lease for deer hunting.

Lets say for the sake of clarity it is 640 acres/One section/one square mile.

Now this group of 6 guys are all like minded and they are more interested in horn/antler size and quality than in venison.

Now on the north boundary of the place is say 500 acres that has 4 hunters with similar interests.

The west side borders a 2500 acre ranch that does day/package type hunts, but is low fenced and also works toward quality deer.

On the south and east sides are varying sized properties from 150 acres down to 20 acres.

All properties/all boundaries are low fenced.

Some of the properties are family hunted only and a couple of the larger ones do offer limited day hunts, with no restrictions on what is shot, AS LONG AS IT IS LEGAL.

Now supposedly white tail deer are the property iof the state of Texas.

Now the folks on the three larger properties get along okay and have the same desires as to what they want to kill, basically, but for different reasons.

On all the properties, supplemental feeding is being done to attract the deer.

The deer herd for the area is at or slightly above carrying capacity for the range.

Now the problems start when someone on one of those smaller properties, whether thru skill and knowledge or plain old DA luck shoots a 150 or 160 class buck, that the folks on the larger properties have all been watching and getting pictures of off their game cams.

Now here they sit, their dreamed of trophy, an animal that they have spent bunches of money on to try and kill, has been taken by some cracker on a 75 acre place with one feeder on it, and the guy probably won't even have it mounted.

After that buck is killed, EVERY time a rifle shot is heard coming off those smaller places, it is just gonna twist that knife a little more.

Up to and including the point where the folks on the three larger places want to see those folks on the smaller places not be allowed to hunt, because they are killing OUR DEER and not putting the same amount of thought/effort/feeling into it as we are.

The cycle continues to spiral from there. The guys on the 500 and 600 acre places then get upset because the 2500 acre place is only shooting the bigger abd better bucks that come on their property, but because those folks control 2500 acres, there is little or nothing the guys on the two smaller places can do, except pitch a meaningles bitch or go find another place to lease, and the problems will be just the same at the new place, it will just involve different people and different amounts of land.

Posted By: chestnut

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/11/08 04:24 PM

CH, you know you and I agree on the scenario you presented, BUT, that isn't my concern or concerns.

My main concern is irresponsible landowners who shoot too many deer off their land. Case in point is the guy who took 10 deer off of 20 acres. You've said about that, that under that kind of pressure the deer will go nocturnal or abandon his property, but here we have at least one case where the deer must not have done that as the deer WERE taken.

My other concern is the ARs. I think they were implemented in counties where there was too much hunting pressure. The result has been to lessen the pressure by causing people to become discouraged and stop hunting those counties. I think a better way would have been to go to a permit system. That way, if you didn't draw a permit you don't have to waste your time sitting in the woods seeing deer you can't shoot.

Posted By: Crazyhorse

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/11/08 05:49 PM

Okay, lets go back and review the OP:

WE started out the rifle season seeing plenty of deer. Several good hill country bucks, 2 exceptional, and several young 8's. Every since the second weekend, we noticed 3 new stands and feeders next to our fence. They were facing away from the fence, but pretty close. After the second weekend, we were maybe seeing 1-3 does if any at all! What the heck is going on, this is the hill country, there are supposed to be deer everywhere.

I know you cant be pi$$ed off about that. But, every morning and evening, we were hearing 3-5 shots. So that makes 6-10 deer possibly being killed. The land next to ours is less thatn half the size of our lease. And that was only the shots we heard when we were there. No telling what was going on the rest of the time.

Anyway, I called our land owner and told him about it. He said he would contact the other land owners around and find out what was going on. Land owner is a Lawyer in Austin, and doesnt come out to the place very much.

I am pretty sure that they are day leasing over there. No other explanation to the deer being virtually gone over night. And all the shooting. I try to stay away from that side of the lease now because who knows what is going on over there.


Now me and the other 3 guys are getting off and looking for a new lease. If anyone knows of a good one with 4 spots for management minded hunters, let me know.


First off, it was stated that this was the Hill Country, No Shortage Of Deer In That Part Of The State.

Next, there is the assumption that the 3 to 5 shots being heard are coming off the adjoining property, they could be, but they might not be.

Combine with that the assumption that the folks on the adjoining property are killing everything. Do they know or have any proof that anything was being hit with those 3 to 5 shots.

Is it possible that too many deer were being killed, Yes.

Is it possible that the good deer these folks had been seeing did get killed, yes.

But if this place is low fenced and surrounded by low fences, than those animals could have been killed anywhere.

Just read the OP carefully, there are a lot of assumptions being made, without any evidnce to back up those assumptions.

Nothing was mentioned about whether the OP and his group had Game cams up, but from pictures I have seen this year, some folks are having deer on their place feeding at the feeders, that are almost completely nocturnal.

Weather/forage/moon phase are not even being mentioned or taken into consideration.

Just the increased amount of activity on the adjoining property with out a single shot being fired could have caused the problem.

Now look at this last statement:

Quote:

I am pretty sure that they are day leasing over there. No other explanation to the deer being virtually gone over night. And all the shooting. I try to stay away from that side of the lease now because who knows what is going on over there.




When in doubt, jump to a conclusion or an assumption.

Lots of folks have mentioned having problems due to the large acorn crop.

There are many variables that could have caused the problem on this place, some independently of others, some in conjunction with others i.e. increased activity in the area/good acorn crop/goofy weather.

There is a whole picture that has to be looked at and analysed in these situations to determine what maybe causing the problem.

Jumping to the conclusion or assumption that it is the neighbors fault is easier to do however.

Posted By: fastliberator

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/11/08 06:44 PM

Well I found oout that they ARE day leasing over there. I know CH that some assumptions were made on my paert, but they were made with some insight, and facts to help with my theory. So maybe we called it an educated guess. Of the shots that I heard, most of them were close enough to me for me to reasonably think that they were next door. Also because there is a road on the other side of the "day lease", and then a game preserve on the other side of that.(high fenced). Many times when you here a shot that is fairly close, you can hear it hit. I am not superman, but it isnt too hard for me to tell when a bullet sounds like it hit flesh. So based on that about 80% or more of the shots that I have personally heard hit. Maybe not all kill shots, but hit something, there fore I assume that it would take the animal out of the heard either instantly or in a few days when it dies from the wound.

Posted By: wfontjr

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/11/08 09:39 PM

i was hoping someone else would say it bluntly, it aint none of your dxxx business what i am doing on my property if i am staying within the laws of the land

Posted By: dogcatcher

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/11/08 10:27 PM

Fastliberator
That is their right to do with their land as they see fit as long as they comply with the law. There are too many landowners to ever have a perfect world in deer hunting. Even if you owned a 100 sections, the neighbors could disrupt the deer hunting with there hunting programs.

Posted By: chestnut

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/11/08 10:39 PM

Quote:

i was hoping someone else would say it bluntly, it aint none of your dxxx business what i am doing on my property if i am staying within the laws of the land




Wrong! Not if what you are doing affects me.

Just go and spend the money and high-fence your place, and be done with it, fastliberator.

Posted By: SplitTimeHunter

Re: Day Lease Next Door!!!!!!!!! - 01/11/08 11:49 PM

Quote:

I have no problem with folks that want to shoot a buck for the wall, UNTIL, they want to impose their desires upon other people.

That Is Wrong, I Don't Care Who You Are.



That is exactly what I was thinking.

Posted By: Crazyhorse

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/12/08 03:45 AM

Can you tell the difference between a doe being hit and a buck??????

I am gonna bet that you can't, I know I can't.

If you will go back and read my opinions on the subject I never said that they were not running a day lease operation.

I said that a lot of assumptions were being made and there are several factors that could cause deer movement to change, in addition to or seperate from a day lease operation.

Have you seen any of the deer that were being killed on that property?????

I am not saying you are wrong, I am saying that you are making assumptions on somewhat limited information.

What makes you think those folks are shooting and wounding and losing animals????????

I agree that something happened and the deer you and your lease mates had been watching disappeared.

One thing you did not comment on was whether you folks were running Game Cams on the property.

Were you?????

Posted By: jrs_39

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/12/08 05:46 AM

Ther day lease next to us is about 300 acres in a narrow strip along our east border. They have 4 feeders and stands set up in a row. They had 4 groups of hunters each weekend of the deer season. Two seasons ago they took 28 bucks. We saw few deer on our property that season. This past season, after putting up the high fence (still low fenced along the river) and feeding year round, we had 12 - 15 bucks at each feeder. I'm sure they still took deer, but not the ones from our property. My only point is that a weekend day hunt operation can put a sizable dent in the buck population.

Posted By: wfontjr

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/12/08 01:45 PM





Wrong! Not if what you are doing affects me.

Just go and spend the money and high-fence your place, and be done with it, fastliberator.




you should be terribly upset with jrs_39 then for putting up the high fence and cutting off the deer to the day hunters, his actions affected someone elses property, i doubt you are based on your high fence recommendation, its funny that way, how if it benefits yourself and hurts someone else you got no problem with that, for the record i have no problem with jrs39 high fencing, his money, his property

i worked for 15 years, scripmt and saved enough money to buy 60 acres, i have worked the last 4 years cutting out food plots, building stands, building roads, trails, a camp
house, i keep the food plots planted year round, i feed year round, i pay the taxes, i let who i hunt when i want, family, friends, coworkers, young men who have never killed a deer, if you want to stop me please put up a high fence, cause it works both ways, you gonna have to out work me to stop me

the problem with "as long as it does not affect me" is you are taking away the use of my property, as CHC is trying to point out is where does it stop

Posted By: Jimbo

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/12/08 02:02 PM

Sadly, and often frequently, it stops as soon as the high fence goes up!

Posted By: chestnut

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/12/08 02:38 PM

If you'd bought enough land to support a deer population on your own land rather than sucking deer off of your neighbor's land then it wouldn't be an issue, would it?

It's unreasonable to expect to be able to hunt on 60 acres -- especially allowing family, friends, and coworkers to ALSO hunt!

Posted By: wfontjr

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/12/08 04:05 PM

i bought what i could afford, sadly seems it always comes down to money, those who have it want to restrict everyone else, i support more deer on my little 60 acres than any of the surrounding land owners, between food plots, feeders, the 100 fruit trees i have planted, the briar patches i have made, i have done nothing illegal and i am not harming the deer population in any way, i continue to see more and more deer each year, each year the bucks have gotten bigger, i have owned this land for four years and have not personally killed the first deer on it, my son has gotten a bigger buck each year, two friends, two nephews, niece have killed their first deer, i have had a blast watching the excitement on their faces,

until i see where we are harming the herd i will continue with the same management practices, i will continue to suck deer in because i put in the hours to make it happen each year, i hope someone tries to out work me, that will make the habitat even better, most hunters want to show up around september, put out a feeder, show up opening day, hunt, call it a season, got no problem with it just do not complain cause i am killing all "your" deer

Posted By: redfishon

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/12/08 08:06 PM

I dont like day leases.. You seem to get the cream of the crop in hunters, know you drugies,pot heads, fence jumpers and tresspassers etc. We own land next to a day lease nothing but problems..The game warden has hualed a bunch of them to jail and I liked it. Why not pay a little bit more for a full year lease..

Posted By: batman

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/12/08 08:31 PM

Go look at the number of people looking for a lease! Some people will day lease for a variety of reasons. We all want everyone to see things our way, it ain't gonna happen. There is always going to be someone else with more $$, more experience, more whatever. If Bill Gates liked to deer hunt, he might want only 1 mature buck per 10,000 acres taken. I think you only have two options put up with it and wait them out or move. Sorry, just my 2cents

Posted By: dogcatcher

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/12/08 09:39 PM

Quote:

Go look at the number of people looking for a lease! Some people will day lease for a variety of reasons. We all want everyone to see things our way, it ain't gonna happen. There is always going to be someone else with more $$, more experience, more whatever. If Bill Gates liked to deer hunt, he might want only 1 mature buck per 10,000 acres taken. I think you only have two options put up with it and wait them out or move. Sorry, just my 2cents




Excellent post, I will even add my pennies worth to it. If you ain't happy moce on!!!

Posted By: helomech

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/12/08 11:08 PM

If Texas ever passed a law only allowing so many deer per acre I would sell and move somewhere else before the next hunting season. I only have 40 acres, and only take as many deer as I think I can without effecting the herd. We killed 4 deer this year, and 3 last year.

Posted By: helomech

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/12/08 11:14 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

dogcatcher - actually it works out the same. 1 x 500 acre piece of land and 25 x 20 acre plots of land would both be allocated the same number of permits. It's just that the small-plot landowners would be on a rotation basis.





So a guy who works hard and buys 40 acres gets one deer every 12 years or so? Nope, that will never fly.




Yes, I think people need to get out of the mindset that they can have access to lots of deer by purchasing small amounts of land like this.

BTW, 40 acres probably would set someone back $3,000 x 40 = $120,000. That's enough to pay $2400/year for a hunting lease for 50 years. Or, it could get you a trophy guided hunt for 24 years.




I bought 40 acres and a house for 130k, and I can hunt it for 10 years or more, and make money off when I sell. You can't do that with paid hunts. I own my land and if they pass any kind of law that limits me to a deer a year I am gone. Maybe Missouri, Mississippi, or some other state.

Posted By: texasd

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/13/08 02:44 AM

this is strictly for Dogcatcher...... i posted on this subject to let my experince with the situation of people hunting to close be known and to see if it might or might not be of help to fastliberator... i dont know if there are laws against hunting fence lines, all i know is that the sheriff and gw came out to my property cause the arse hole land owner next door called him, the gw checked our birds and liesense, and firearms to make sure the plugs where in and the sherriff informed us we needed to stay so far from the fence,so i took for granted there was a law(so i might be wrong)..... i didnt argue cause it wasnt worth it, and yes maybe small town politics and him and the landowner where buttbuddies but for u to say i fed a line of bs, well to me that comes off as u being a big dik.... sorry for the language, but for never meeting you or talking to u, that is sure what u came off sounding like.. but thats just my opionion and mine alone.....

Posted By: redfishon

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/13/08 04:28 AM

When your neighbors all put up high fence,and fence you out,becuase it sounds like WWII next door becuase your running a day lease.And every 3 days there is a differnt bunch of hunters in there and shot every deer that moves on your little ranchet. And you wonder why all of a sudden you dont have any deer becuase your neighbors fenced you out. Then you can do anything you want on your land ,becuase there will be nothing to hunt. On the other hand why not get with your neighbors and work something out that works for everyone.. In the great sceme of things a day lease isnt a answer its a problem.. Management hunts are ok.

Posted By: dogcatcher

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/13/08 04:31 AM

I meant you were fed a line of bs by the sheriff, I did not mean you were feeding a line of bs. Because that sheriff out and out lied to you and the GW picked on you because the landowner was a local. Both of the GW and sheriff need a little lesson on fair play.

Sorry you took it the wrong way.

Posted By: Crazyhorse

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/13/08 02:23 PM

So, you think that if a couple of your neighbors don't actually want to see or hear of any deer being killed you should go along with that???????

I.D.F.T.S.!!!!!!

Or say your neighbors want nothing but main frame 8 and 10 pointers with 15 inch or greater spreads killed, and does should not be hunted, even though there is a buck:doe ratio of 1:5???? You going to go along with those neighbors???

Getting along with the neighboring land owners is one thing, letting them dictate what you want to do on your property is another.

Don't get me wrong, at no point am I supporting killing more deer than the herd can with stand, just show me someone that has a real time census on how many deer are actually in a given area.

Posted By: wfontjr

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/13/08 02:34 PM

Quote:

When your neighbors all put up high fence,and fence you out,




please surround me with a high fence, at $15k more a mile,i have little over a mile on 3 sides, that will improve my property value, free fence on three sides, county road on fourth, for a few more dollars my place will be fenced, that would be a dream come true, how much is a 60 acre high fenced preserve worth these days, i would not have to worry about my wife's miniature horses jumping over a high fence

Posted By: sig226fan (Rguns.com)

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/13/08 02:56 PM

You guys that say crap like "you should have bought more land" or other "let them eat cake" type statements are out of touch with reality. I'd guess close to 1% of the population own 500acres or more, maybe less than 1%. So that 1% should dictate what us "peasant" landowners can do ? That BS, plain and simple.

Also, $3000 an acre, crap, I've got 40 acres of brush with deer I'd gladly take that for. I've got 60 acres of housing development land that won't bring 10k with 50 miles of Dallas....yet. It's for sale though. $3k per acre for rural undeveloped hunting land is about double what it will bring. Asking and getting is different things.

You guys with more money than sense, need to not worry about what's going on amongst us losers on 40 acres, crap, put enough feeders and food plots and minerals and water troughs and licks and everything else on your land, and all those deer will stay there...right? I mean, deer find a spot and stay there, right?

I can't knock the high fence people....I do't want it, but crap, IT'S THEIR'S, THEY CAN DO WHAT THEY WANT!

This is the same logic that people who bought a house at the end of the 20 year old runway and then BIIITCH about the noise...pure BS.

I can feel for the original poster, having a day lease as a neighbor would suck. I agree. But it's not the neighboring land owner that screwed him, it was his landowner that accidentally failed to mention that little tidbit of information when it was being leased...

I have got to go to get away from this topic or start taking blood pressure medicine.

Posted By: texasd

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/13/08 04:01 PM

well then i apoligize to u dogcatcher cause i took it the wrong way.....i tend to get on edge if i get questioned about something that i know happened... but yea you are probly right about the gw and sherriff... they get a little power and think they run the world....

Posted By: wfontjr

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/13/08 04:19 PM

100% agreement with sig226fan

Posted By: fastliberator

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/13/08 08:39 PM

Sig that was exactly my point!

Posted By: kyotee1

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/15/08 08:53 PM

Hear, hear to Sig!!! That's telling them...I'm backing that one up! Ain't that right, FAST?

Posted By: chestnut

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/15/08 09:00 PM

Well, I disagree, of course. I don't have enough money to buy 40 acres -- so I (like most of us) get a LEASE, where I can afford to LEASE enough acres to take out only the amount of deer that the land I'm leasing can support. It's not a "let them eat cake" attitude. It's not being willing to buy a small amount of land and then decimate the deer population on it.

Posted By: HornSlayer

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/15/08 10:50 PM

I don't think individual small acreage owners can create the situation we are discussing. Very few landowners’ of any size are going to willingly exterminate their own herd, but a lessee (non-landowner) day hunt operator might. Why not make day lease operators have a management plan that is approved by knowledgeable men to assure the public the resource can with stand the additional pressure place upon it? What is wrong with that? At least make them consider the effects of their enterprise on the surrounding lands and resources.

No one has rebutted my comment concerning commercial fishing. Day lease operators whether land owner or not should be regulated the same as commercial fishermen are.
Think of the uproar you would hear if commercial fisherman were allowed unlimited access to fish stocks. Think of what we are proposing here as similar to a 1 per boat limit on Amberjack. The same logic should pertain to all our wildlife resources, not just the fishes.

Posted By: helomech

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/15/08 11:32 PM

I see your point,and agree. Any commercial business can be set to higher standards.

Posted By: Crazyhorse

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/16/08 12:26 AM

The reason we are looking at the reduced snapper limits and limits on many of the salt water species, is so that the commercial fishermen can continue with their business.

Your confusing two issues that are not even remotely related.

Quotas on recreational fishermen are the ones being severely cut.

But NOBODY goes out and nets deer.

You need to do some reading of some of the stuff Chester Moore and some of the other salt water writers are submitting right now about how screwed up the new federal regs concerning the recreational harvest of certain fish species.

But that ain't got one thing to do with deer or deer hunting.

Do day lease operations need to be monitored and placed under a different set of rules than just regular season long/year round leases, probably.

To compare what is happening to salt water fish and deer in the state of Texas is totally ludicrous. Give Me A Break.

Where are you gonna find those "Knowledgable" men to make those decisions on who can or can not operate what they want to on their land, you really think TP&W is gonna mess with that?????

Posted By: passthru

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/16/08 12:44 AM






please surround me with a high fence, at $15k more a mile,i have little over a mile on 3 sides, that will improve my property value, free fence on three sides, county road on fourth, for a few more dollars my place will be fenced, that would be a dream come true, how much is a 60 acre high fenced preserve worth these days, i would not have to worry about my wife's miniature horses jumping over a high fence



Sorry guy, a square 160 acre spot is 1/2 mile on each side, a mile per side is 640 acres or a section if you prefer. If you have 60 acres chances are you are about 1/4 mile square (slightly less actually) unless your property is triangular in some wierd way.

Posted By: HornSlayer

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/16/08 03:34 PM

Quote:

Your confusing two issues that are not even remotely related.





I you can't see the similarities then you must have your CrazyHorse blinders on!

I'm sorry I just could not resist the snipe.

Posted By: meathunter

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/16/08 03:57 PM

I have a situation. I hunt on about 330 acres. I put up 4 blinds and 5 feeders. I do all the blind work, repair, new one's etc. I feed corn year round. I maintain the feeders. I do all the work and put out the all the money, and have brother-in-law that wants to hunt whenever he wants, bring whoever he wants and not contribute at all. This is family land owned by my father and he says he does not want any family squables over hunting and has told me to do what I have to do. I ask my brother in law not to shoot any young bucks, he shot a 7 & 8 pointer with the larger of the two having about a 12 inch spread. What do you do? Put locks on the blinds?? Dad said I cannot do that. Stop feeding. Can't do that because my personal family (wife and kids) love to hunt and see all the animals that come to the feeder. What would you do?

Posted By: sig226fan (Rguns.com)

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/16/08 04:07 PM

Maybe devote one stand to him and his, and let him do the work? Some sort of division of labor and costs. Maybe dad doesn't understand the work you've put into it and the money.

Posted By: sig226fan (Rguns.com)

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/16/08 04:08 PM

Quote:






please surround me with a high fence, at $15k more a mile,i have little over a mile on 3 sides, that will improve my property value, free fence on three sides, county road on fourth, for a few more dollars my place will be fenced, that would be a dream come true, how much is a 60 acre high fenced preserve worth these days, i would not have to worry about my wife's miniature horses jumping over a high fence



Sorry guy, a square 160 acre spot is 1/2 mile on each side, a mile per side is 640 acres or a section if you prefer. If you have 60 acres chances are you are about 1/4 mile square (slightly less actually) unless your property is triangular in some wierd way.






.31 mi x .31 mi would be 60 acres, and have .93 miles of fence on three sides of it (assuming the fourth side was not fenced; or 1.24 miles of fence if enclosed totally.

Posted By: Cowtown3hunter

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/16/08 04:44 PM

Approach the landowner next door to shut down his day lease and do a season lease to you or your friends. That's what our group did last year, but our same landowner also owned the day lease place across the road. The expanded acreage allowed me and some others to join the group.

The landowner still wanted some old customers to day hunt, so that still happens on a limited basis, and we split the fee with the landowner.

Posted By: jp

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/16/08 05:20 PM

It is crazy to stick up for the day leaser pretty soon your hunting will be greatly effected and his customers will also be mislead and unhappy. It would be like thinking the land owners next to me in oklahoma are right for putting sixty hed of cows on around 120 acres and not keep up with there fences. All I do is fix fences and there starving cows dont get fed enough so they keep breaking fences and finding new ways to get in. Is this fare he does own his property it is his.Come on guys if some one is rapping there land and it effects you and others how can you say that it right.

Posted By: texasd

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/16/08 05:22 PM

meathunte it sounds if your brother in law needs an attitude ajustment of some kind....... i feel for u

Posted By: jp

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/16/08 05:29 PM

Meathunter all you can do is sit him down tell him exactly how you feel and be angry about it. Tell him this is your familys land you like having him part of it but step up and do your part.

Posted By: wfontjr

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/18/08 01:26 AM

Quote:






please surround me with a high fence, at $15k more a mile,i have little over a mile on 3 sides, that will improve my property value, free fence on three sides, county road on fourth, for a few more dollars my place will be fenced, that would be a dream come true, how much is a 60 acre high fenced preserve worth these days, i would not have to worry about my wife's miniature horses jumping over a high fence



Sorry guy, a square 160 acre spot is 1/2 mile on each side, a mile per side is 640 acres or a section if you prefer. If you have 60 acres chances are you are about 1/4 mile square (slightly less actually) unless your property is triangular in some wierd way.




try a rectangle, roughy 1/2 mile deep by 300 yards wide,

actually a trapezoid 6/10 mile one side, 5/10 other, 300 yards and 500 yards

Posted By: sig226fan (Rguns.com)

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/18/08 02:57 PM

Actually that couldn't be a trapezoid either...unless the 300 and 500 were the slant heights or distances along the edges, for it to be a trapezoid it would need one pair of parallel sides....

Sorry, that's the old geometry teacher in me coming through...

Posted By: redfishon

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/18/08 09:31 PM

Quote:

Quote:

When your neighbors all put up high fence,and fence you out,




please surround me with a high fence, at $15k more a mile,i have little over a mile on 3 sides, that will improve my property value, free fence on three sides, county road on fourth, for a few more dollars my place will be fenced, that would be a dream come true, how much is a 60 acre high fenced preserve worth these days, i would not have to worry about my wife's jumping over a high fence




I have heard miniature horses tastes just like elk is this true?.Glad you dont own property next to me if your attitude is like that. . My point was to try and get along with your neighbors .. Just becuase you bought 60 acres dosent entitle someone to every deer in the county, thats just wrong.. When you have a differnt bunch of hunters in there everyother day on a 200 acre ranch ranch or less and let them shot whatever moves there is an issue.Wow and people wonder why everyones putting up high fence.

Posted By: wfontjr

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/20/08 06:41 PM

i guess this has been beat to death, the deer population around my place is thriving, i keep two deer cams out year round, more deer in the area every year that i have had the the place, i get along real well with my neighbors, i do not try to tell them what they can and can not do, if i have a problem me and neighbors discuss it and usually come to an agreement, i think chc and sigfan explain it quite well, where does it end, where do you draw the line, who gets to draw the line

i do not want you cutting your trees
i do not want you to do any commercial business
i do not want you to stir up dust
i do not want to smell your cows when they poop
your chickens are crowing at daylight
your dogs should never bark
i only want you to kill one deer
the deer you kill has to have huge antlers
you can not kill a deer until he is 5 years old
your grass needs cutting
your car needs washing
you can not high fence your land
you can not put up windmills and block my view
no pigs on your property, they stink
your chainsaw makes a lot of noise

some of these i have strong opinions about others i do not care, but whom am i to decide what you can or can not do, and we all know the government would surely screw it up if they tried,

Posted By: Crazyhorse

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/20/08 07:09 PM



Really good post on the subject.

We can all find reasons or things to gripe at or about our neighbors.

The problem is, they can do the same about us, and that is the part we forget.

There are no easy answers to this problem, but passing legislation curtailing what a landowner can do with their property over the issue of Deer Management, that is not a solution or an option. JMO.

Posted By: sig226fan (Rguns.com)

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/20/08 11:48 PM

Wow, those were the two best posts yet

Posted By: redfishon

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/21/08 03:01 AM

I dont wont goverment in anything least of all hunting..I just want neighbors to treat others as they themselves would like to be treated. When you have a land owner that has a different bunch of guys in a property everyother day and the owner is not out there to check on them.. And no rules in place too what they can shoot there is a problem. We have had livestock shot through the fence by some ya-hoo thinking it was a deer from the day lease next door.Also had deer shot and drug through the fence.. ""Yes the gamewarden does come out and he does arrest people, but so what.."" 2 days later a new bunch of hunters to deal with at the day lease..What I am saying is not all day leases and all day hunters are bad.. What I am saying is if you rifle enough hunters through a property you are more likely to find bad ones. So please everyone tell me how much of an BASS I am for disliking day leases with no rules. Maybe instead of governing hunting,you hold the land owner responable..If you have 4 people/hunters arrested or ticketed for game vilations/tresspassing that come from your land in less 3years no hunting is allowed on such said property for 2 years. Maybe then landowners would be more mindfull of the hunters thay have on their property, if it hits there pocket book..

PS. I dont care what anyone does on there land, till it starts to effect my land or my livestock or my rights not to be tresspassed..

Posted By: Crazyhorse

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/21/08 03:16 AM

No one is saying anything is wrong with there being some control method in place to deal with the problem places, it just does not need to be a blanket policy and you know it.

Why not look into filing some type of lawsuit against that particular neighbor.

It is one thing to want to see behavior such as you listed controlled, it is a completely differt situation when people are wanting their neighbors controlled because they think the neighbors are shooting all of the deer, that the other folks have been trying to manage.

I don't think any of us have a gripe against a land owner in the situation you described.

Our gripes come when folks on one parcel of land are managing for antlers and they want to force everyone around them to do the same thing.

Posted By: caldwelldeerhunter

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/22/08 01:27 AM

gotta respect the land as if it was yours is what my moddo is.

Posted By: Crazyhorse

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/22/08 01:42 AM

That is not a bad motto.

Trying to force your neighbors to treat their land or do with their land as you do yours, is not good. JMO.

Posted By: redfishon

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/22/08 03:01 AM

Quote:

No one is saying anything is wrong with there being some control method in place to deal with the problem places, it just does not need to be a blanket policy and you know it.




Why not look into filing some type of lawsuit against that particular neighbor.

It is one thing to want to see behavior such as you listed controlled, it is a completely differt situation when people are wanting their neighbors controlled because they think the neighbors are shooting all of the deer, that the other folks have been trying to manage.

I don't think any of us have a gripe against a land owner in the situation you described.

Our gripes come when folks on one parcel of land are managing for antlers and they want to force everyone around them to do the same thing.




It just does not need to be a blanket policy and you know it. I never said I wanted a blanket policy. I just said I didnt like day leases.


Why not look into filing some type of lawsuit against that particular neighbor.

Wow never thought of that.. This has been going on for 20 or so years. Also try to find a lawyer that will sue the land owner for pro bono/contengency, I would give him what we won. I would lose money if I sued them myself.. Let me explain.. Say you rent a house and the renters rob the house next door. Could you sue the owner of the rent house and win becuase his renters stole from you? Also what if one person shoots another with a gun can you sue the gun company and win? It is along those same line the lawsuit/illegal crimes kinda stop with the perp which normally has no money or little to lose.. We sold the 300 acres that boarded the day lease 2 years ago and yes the new owners knew about the day lease and they have also had nothing but problems..I will stop playing the worlds smallest now..

Lots of lawyers on here I hope they chime in..

Posted By: Letsgo

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 01/22/08 03:55 AM

I think alot of people on this thread are not understanding the problem. The majority of day leases are only concerned about making money with NO regard of the affects in the future. The two day lease operations that have been my neighbor over the last 20 years were nothing but problems. The first was a roughly a 200 acre place and the second around 350 acres. Each place had at least 4 different hunters each weekend. ( I have no ideas about the middle of the week). All these hunters had paid their money and thus could and would take anything that was legal (or moved).

All it takes is one or two years beside a day operation and you will leave the area.

Posted By: SapperTitan

Re: Day Lease Next Door!!!!!!!!! - 10/08/18 04:01 AM

Originally Posted By: rackdout
This year a group of hunters leased the land next to our land. The problem is they put their camp on the fence line, next to a food plot we hunt. We have two tower blinds on the field. The so called hunters brought in campers, built a fire pit, outhouse, you name it. We informed the hunters that we hunt the field, and it was dangerous for their camp to be so close inwhich they did nothing. On one ocassion I am sitting in my blind when I see one of the hunters drive up to the camp about an hour before dark, and got out making all kinds of noise and cleaned a deer next to the field I was hunting. Needless to say it scared all the deer off the field. To top it off, the hunters put a deer blind so close to the fence I could reach across and touch it. Just wanted you to know your not the only one with idiot hunters next to you.
So you are hunting their fence line and then you get mad when they hunt your fence line lmao
Posted By: buzziebells

Re: Day Lease Next Door!!!!!!!!! - 10/08/18 05:57 AM

Honest question here. What brought this 10 year old thread back up again?
Posted By: Ranch Dog

Re: Day Lease Next Door!!!!!!!!! - 10/08/18 11:06 AM

Originally Posted By: buzziebells
Honest question here. What brought this 10 year old thread back up again?

Call it what it is, stirring up trouble.
Posted By: Erathkid

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 10/08/18 11:31 AM

10 year old thread. Wonder if the guy found a new lease? confused2
Posted By: buzziebells

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 10/08/18 11:42 AM

Ah, ok, I understand now! Did get some insight from a thread that I otherwise would not have seen though. Guess it’s all good then.
Posted By: Jimbo

Re: DAY LEASE NEXT DOOR!!!!!!!! - 10/09/18 01:32 PM

The guy that started the thread probably quit hunting and sold all his guns, feeders, etc.
The guy that dug it back up after 10 years is just plain bored or trolling.
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