tpwd/ar laws in my opinion

Been reading the AR debates and this is what ticks me off. First of all we own the land paid for it and then continue to have to pay taxes on it. The wildlife eats our grass and or crops drinks the water that some of us have to pay for because of no rain. The government wants to claim the wildlife as theirs?????????? We have to buy a hunting license to kill something that we already pay to support its way of life. Oh and god forbid a person shoot a deer that isn't freakin 13 inches!!! Give them the smallest chance and they will fine you for anything they can. I understand that our country is better than most but the way we set back and let the tpwd dictate to us the way we can hunt and the deer we can shoot makes me shake my head. When it comes to the point we can't make our own minds up the way we want to manage our own land that we worked and paid for is sad!!!!!! For you AR lovers you may want to set back and take a look at what's going on. No telling what the next bs law is going to be. That's my 2 cents...........

Yeh, I'm willing to bet that the majority of AR lovers out there were raised as "trophy" hunters claiming that they only shoot mature bucks for the health of the herd. So ARs fit right in to the way they always hunted. Had the TP&W created some kind of law protecting mature bucks where they could live to breed for the health of the herd and forced everyone to shoot does and unbranched antlered bucks only, AR lovers would be outraged.

I'm 24. One day, I'll tell my kids, I remember when you couldn't shoot deer smaller than 13". Just like my dad told me that he remembered when deer hunting wasn't allowed for a few years in our area of the state at one time. Just one of those things.

On your argument though, why do the same rules not apply to fishing? Why doesn't the state regulate length and bag limits of fish on private property? I know that they are more contained than deer, but still. Doesn't make sense to me. Also, why are MLD lands exempt from ARs? Because they have a biologist? On that premise I should be able to take a pic to a biologist and have him deemed a cull and should be taken as spike OR have him deem a narrow trophy buck as legal to shoot.

Yeh, also you can catch a fish, measure it, if it's not legal, release it, no harm done....unfortunately, you can't do that with a buck.

Valid points! At least to those who hate ARs.

I could be wrong but its about the money for the government. Kind of like a city cop writing a ticket to a honest hard working person for driving 5 mph over the speed limit just to make their monthly ticket quota. Seems like robbery to me. Same thing with hunting these days. Have to worry about a buck not being "legal" because there is some prick waiting to write you a ticket. Shouldn't our government officials have bigger fish to fry??????? Take a kid hunting and they have to pass on a ton of bucks because our government says they can't shoot them. I bet they are going to stay interested in it. Not likely!!!!! If folks want to trophy hunt then good for them. For those of us that still want to hunt for what hunting started out to be then let us be!!!!!! I bet you AR lovers don't mind eating a young cow for tender beef. Shouldn't that cow of had a chance to mature??? Get over you modern day trophy hunting crap. A trophy don't have to be 160 inch buck. A basket racked 8 point makes a lot of folks just as happy.

Jacob, I saw a pic in "the" deer hunting album of my FILs from when season opened back in the north side of the county.. 6 folks hunting and 6 10pts strung up on the rail.

So in terms of deer, communist or socialist take by the gov?

It's all for the betterment of the herd, right?

I think they should change it to where you can only shoot 8 points. Nothing smaller...nothing bigger.

In addition...they should also do away with LAMPS and MLD. If you have a highfence...you are S.O.L.

Amen brother.

Wife shot a 11 3/4 in 6 point 5 years ago before the AR crap and you would of thought she shot a 200 in deer. The buck was gray in the face and didn't have enough teeth to hardly eat. It's the only deer in my house that is mounted lol. Worked out good for her......

Hunting in Texas isn't what it used to be. Get on with the times, or just keep getting mad.

Get on with the times huh???? That's what's wrong with our country now buddy is getting away from what it was built on. We need to go back to the old times and things would go a lot better my friend. That's the most ridiculous advice I have ever heard.

So what is hunting in Texas all about now? Enlighten us!

Big bucks = big buck$.
AR = Antler Revenue.
It all makes Cents.

Dang HF tree

Curly I think me and you would get along good. Maybe one day we can get back to hunting the way it was meant to be. As long as there are push over people that don't have the guts to say they are tired of being dictated to then it won't change. We vote the idiots in that make these laws we can vote them out. Oh never mind we just need to get on with the times. Give me a break!!!!!!!

Folks used to hunt for the bragging rights of providing a delicious meal....antlers didn't matter. They were only a bonus. Now if you say you hunt for a meal, you need to hunt does or spikes....leave the trophies for those who hunt for wall decorations as their #1 priority because if you claim yourself as a meat hunter, you are a second class hunter, a hunter who doesn't care about laws or herd health. However, if you say you hunt dove, turkey, ducks, rabbits or squirrels for food, that's more acceptable. Bass fishing has evolved much the same as whitetail deer hunting is. Turn bass loose and eat other kinds of fish, a trophy bass is for the wall, not the table. I was raised to hunt lawfully but cherish the meat first, antlers second. I have actually been told on this site that I don't need to ever shoot a trophy buck since they are not my priotiy and that I'm a hypocrite for having deer mounts on my wall. That's like me telling trophy hunters not to eat venison.

and is tastier and healthier than

We all know trophy hunters eat veal & filet mignon.

Only cause you know we're right BMD.

I don't agree with AR's but I don't agree with blasting the young deer and you know that

I believe they were trying to protect some young deer from the indisciplined hunters that cause the avg age of deer shot in Texas to be 2.5 and I believe it has helped protect the younger deer, has it allowed some mature deer to live that should be shot absolutely but that is the exception not the norm. So it is not perfect plan it beats nothing.

I don't agree with blasting young deer either, if they are not legal and you know that.

Until ARs were forced on us, I didn't realize the Texas deer population was suffering so badly. Glad my eyes were opened!

I don't think it was for just the herd, it was definitely proposed by landowners at some point to try and assist with bigger racks so they could charge more for the land they lease. You know I am a bone collector so anything that might help the horns get bigger I am all for, but let me tell you the zebra meat is awesome if you want to shoot sumptin for meat.

Are there restrictions on shooting zebras with a certain number of stripes?

Shoot away no restrictions.

No horizontal stripes and you're g2g.... That would be a skunk.

get used to the AR's they are here to stay!! they are working ever where they are in effect. like it or not it's here. they will most likely be ever where soon. I look for them to start a trial 16 inch somewhere soon. LMAO!!!

No prob.. I keep a stash of bucks in the 16-20" range just in case that happens. They're younger than the 14-16" target group of deer I like, but surely they will taste better.

you're right, but it's not going to happen, so keep on griping.

They wont be everywhere. They are only in counties where 60% of the bucks brought in are yearlings.

And to people that are meat hunters. I have heard so many people say that they are mat hunters, but are you really? You'll pass on the herd of does sitting in front of you, but as soon as that first deer with a rack steps out, it's down. I'm not saying all meat hunters are like this, but I'm willing to bet that most are.

Let me see if I get this correct!!! In AR Counties, we are allowed to kill off does and young spikes and can't shoot mature narrow rack bucks so pretty soon all you have left are old narrow rack bucks!!! How is this going to help the health of the deer herd???

I have said it before and I will say it again. ARs have worked for my little section of the world in SW Nacogdoches Co. Texas has 254 counties of which, 113 have antler restrictions in place. That leaves 141 counties open to shoot any buck. Feel free to look for a place to hunt in one of those counties.

And I say they don't work everywhere!!! They could have accomplished the same thing by just lowering the buck limit to 1!!!

I would love to hunt elsewhere but some of us don't have the money to hunt better leases!!! I hunt in Tyler County because I can afford the lease and its close to home!!! Thats why I hunt in East Texas!!!

LONESTAR1955 They may be here to stay but they aint working everywhere! Aparently you dont read the threads very well or you would know better. I lost 3 hunters in my household because of ar bullcrap. My daughter or wife or dad wont hunt anymore because of this mature deer and big horns crap. I have killed enough deer in my time so i dont mind as much but when my family who loved to hunt wont anymore because there not willing to wait for a MATURE deer or want to shoot does, that pisses me off. I will hunt by the rules but i dont have to like em.

Somebody will no matter what the rules are

So get rid of the AR rules and work with the bag limits to accomplish same goals on a budget!!!

Been reading the AR debates and this is what ticks me off. First of all we own the land paid for it and then continue to have to pay taxes on it. The wildlife eats our grass and or crops drinks the water that some of us have to pay for because of no rain. The government wants to claim the wildlife as theirs?????????? We have to buy a hunting license to kill something that we already pay to support its way of life. Oh and god forbid a person shoot a deer that isn't freakin 13 inches!!! Give them the smallest chance and they will fine you for anything they can. I understand that our country is better than most but the way we set back and let the tpwd dictate to us the way we can hunt and the deer we can shoot makes me shake my head. When it comes to the point we can't make our own minds up the way we want to manage our own land that we worked and paid for is sad!!!!!! For you AR lovers you may want to set back and take a look at what's going on. No telling what the next bs law is going to be. That's my 2 cents...........

to2000 has it right in my opinion....this is unfortunately not about hunting, it is not about herd management, it is about more government control. What ever happened to common sense? What happened to managing your own land and make your own judgements.
I guess as a society we have become so lame we need more socialistic leadership.....NOT FOR ME.
AR's suck but lets face it the bigger picture is regaining our rights to make our own decisions.

So why didn't the ORIGINAL 6 (experimental) counties get this advice back in 2000?

That would have given the whiners 248 options w/o restrictions !!

Where you at in SW Nacogdoches County? We're about as SW as you can get

Why don't the guys that are so pissed about ARs just find another place that does not have them? Before I stopped hunting ET years ago you would come back to camps and see all kinds of deer hanging up fawns young bucks and old deer as well made me sick so I moved on. I think the ARs are good keeps the good old boys from blasting every deer that walks by. Not all are like that but there is a chit load that are. If you don't believe that put a 2 1/2 year old buck with a 15" spread or a mature doe which one does he shoot guess?

My grandfather owns a 350 acre place in an AR county that we have been hunting since 1988. We never really kill more than one deer off the place because any more than that would just be wasteful to us and my grandfather only bow hunts, with a recurve at that. I only bow hunted from 2005 through 2008, and my Dad hunts there occasionally, so I have accounted for the majority of deer taken off the place.

Deer numbers started to rise noticeably around the year 2000 (oddly enough this is also when the hog invasion began) and are currently at roughly three does to every buck and one deer for every 35 acres. About one or two mature, two or three immature bucks and 4 to 8 does could be on his place at any given time or about 8 to 12 deer at a time on his property. This land is composed of half thick bottomland woods, half pasture.

Deer taken at his place are as follows:

1988- 15 inch 8 point- alone
1993- 14 inch 8 point- with three does
1995- 17 inch 8 point- alone
1996- 20 inch 8 point- with three does
1998- 9 inch 6 point- alone
1999- 15 inch 8 point- with 12 does and one giant 12 point buck that I had to pass on because this is back in the good old days when it was a one buck county.
2002- 10 inch 2x4 freakish 6 point- alone
2004- 18 inch 9 point- trailing 4 does

2006- AR take effect...

from 2006-present I have passed on two decent 8s, three fork horns, and two 6 points that I would have been more than happy to have taken as my yearly buck but that would not have gone 13 inches or were too close to take the chance. Anyhow, this is how it breaks down from there.

2008- took a doe for meat
2009- took a doe for meat
2010- killed a freak horned spike x 4 with the spike growing down the side of his face, a broken back leg, and a hole through his back... A cull in other words... I had passed on him th eday before and figured I'd put him out of his misery. He ate good though.

And then this year, 2011-

My dad kills a 14 point 19 inch wide monster this weekend. The biggest deer ever taken on my grandfathers place to date. we even had a trailcam picture of him.

So it breaks down like so...

1988-2004. 6 deer that would make AR and two that would not were taken. Thats a 3 to 1 legal to not legal ratio over a 16 year period with a deer being taken about every other year.

2005-Present

One over 13" buck, one culled spike, two does were taken, and I have passed on 7 "illegal" bucks...

Do the math to fugure out why I absolutely despise AR for what it had done to out hunting at my grandfathers place.

Well I would but 1). its what I can afford and 2). its close to home!!!

Like I said Seadog not all are like that and I understand whereI some like to stay close to home.

Change the rules for a few years to protect all mature bucks so that they may live to breed and make folks ONLY shoot does and unbranched antlered bucks. See who gripes then.

I would complain bc that is unnecessary as well. Any form of mgmt needs to be property specific.

Well that makes sense. It is a given that the first 2-3 years under ARs are going to be lean for mature bucks as they will need time to mature. If your place is like mine you will likely have an opportunity at good mature buck/s every year now.

I hear y'all's arguments but to me they don't make sense. I think almost any qualified game biologist would agree they don't make sense. In the vast majority of counties the ARs are a simple way to accomplish two things that were in dire need of being accomplished:

1)More does being taken; and

2)More bucks being allowed to reach maturity.

Again,there is no perfect system but I'll take this one. IMO we could do without the "spike" rule but in reality that was a sop to you "meat hunters" who think it's a sin to shoot a doe.

You guys are acting like AR's made the deer disappear when that is just stupid.

And yeah you guys yearning for the "old days" are just hopelessly living in the past. The "old days" mentality almost wiped whitetail deer and a whole lot of other game from the face of the earth.

Carry on.

Mission accomplished then!!!

1)More does being taken: I saw 3 in hunting the month of October; and

2)More bucks being allowed to reach maturity.: I've seen 3 mature bucks that I can't shoot, (12 to 12.5" spread).

I'm sorry that I didn't realize that!!! And to think that Tyler County did this in only 3 years!!! Now I must apologize to all of you AR lovers out there!!!

I hear you and Curly talking and if that's the way it is in your county then maybe you consider communicating and working with TPWD instead of just villifying them.(You'll note I didn't say every county.) Remember,they are human beings too. In fact,if not for the deer releases they made in the '70s much of east Texas would have no deer.

And just from being on here I note Curley's boy killed a dang nice deer and he has another dang nice one on camera. So it ain't all bad....

Yep he got him a good un! ARs are not the end of the world but debating about them is so much fun!

Yes NP, it is very frustrating when I see 3 good mature bucks, 4.5/5.5 yrs old), that I can't shoot at because they are too narrow!!! On the lease road by my stand, I see a lot of buck tracks of differing sizes so I know that there are a lot of deer there of different ages and then have people tell me that the reason for AR's is because we have "shot out" our County!!!

[and as Curly says debates are fun]

Cross over and take out your frustrations on those 12" deer...it's more fun than you think.

NO, I will not go to the darkside!!!

I'm a qualified wildlife biologist and environmental scientist and my arguments make perfect sense to me. The ARs were put in place to achieve a goal that TPWD feels is necessary to acheive. I do not agree with their methods in this case. The intentions are noble enough, but they have taken a far too restrictive approach. Bag limits work just fine for regulating the harvest of white tailed deer.

Thats what I've been saying all along!!! Thank you!!!

So the math shows 60% of deer taken were 2.5 year old for a certain county, so they put AR's in these counties? So was everyone of the deer in this 60% bucks? I mean the way I see it, if the norm of bucks getting shot were 2.5 I assume the masses basically will just switch their focus to 3.5 year old deer. I don't know if that is what they are wanting but dont really see how that helps anything.
My place I hunt is small and we see a lot of deer move in and out every year. 1 thing that is the norm is most of the 2 year old deer are small 6's or fork horn 4 pt, and some basket racked 8pts. Now when they hit that 3 year mark they are right at 13" or maybe 14-15" legal deer. So I guess what I'm getting at is if AR's are wanting to save the 2yo deer so they can make it to 3yo I guess mission accomplished.

IMO the reason 60% of deer were 2.5 is because they are immature and dont know any better. How many of you at any given time on any given day can see 3-4 immature deer while hunting? Well if you only hit the woods 2 or 3 times a year or do a day hunt 1 time a year, I don't think most of those people really care how old a deer is, and on top of that most people would rather shoot a buck than a doe. It's way cooler to say you shot a buck than a doe no matter what the size is.

AR's are not going to change people to trophy hunters no matter what rules they put in place. All you are doing is forcing people to make mistakes in the
field, then making another mistake to cover up what they just did.

The advise of changing where one hunts to a non-AR county is utterly ridiculous. I used to hunt in the hill country, a presently non-AR county. I loved the hunting that place, and others similar to it that I hunted in the past. We always had family land available to hunt in what is now an AR county. But I chose to take a break from that place for several years and hunt the hill country. I gave up hunting in Hill Country several years ago, and went back to hunting the family land. The decision, at the time, was based on us having our first child. I needed to save the money i was spending on the lease fees, corn, and fuel to get there and back. A notable amount of money spent per year! The family land was free access, and more than two hours closer to home. So I was then free to spend more money in improving the habitat, and less money on just getting there.

Once I made the move I found that hunting the place where my grandfather was born and raised actually had a much larger appeal. The deer are fewer, and on average have smaller racks. But the much fewer deer I have taken off that place, by choice, have meant much more to me than any larger buck I took off of leased land in the past.

I came back to this family land with a management strategy, to only take mature bucks and be very choosy about any younger deer and doe taken. In that time I can count the number of deer taken on one hand. That's a conscious decision on my part, and I have never regretted it. Since I am basically a landowner now (one day at least a portion of this land will be mine, and I am currently my Mom's representative on the place since she has no interest in the place), I have more of an interest in the place than just hunting anyway. I enjoy the new found interest in "our" place. What I do not enjoy is TPWD having gotten in the way of us doing what we want (within reason) on our own land.

I have done little research into the origin of antler restriction laws. But I can bet they were largely influenced by south, central, and west Texas landowners/biologists/hunters/lease/landowners/representatives (take your pick). People who suffered no ill effects since the laws do not apply to them, and wouldn't anyway due the the vastly different nature of the hunting in that region of the state. So of course they were on board for it! Another aspect, it would create more demand for the hunting rights in these areas as people who do not like AR's seek out areas not under the influence of them.

The bottom line to me is this....If people want to kill smaller/younger deer, then they will suffer the consequences of having a smaller/younger herd on average. This is a situation they create, and evidently are willing to live with. So why force them to change their views on hunting, and possibly deter them from taking to the woods at all? The people that want to take mature deer, and see the results of their patience pay off in the long run will get rewarded in time. We know the implications involved in our choices, leave that to us, THE LANDOWNERS.

Now, in the county I hunt, we went from limits of 1 buck and two doe (with LAMPS permits), to 2 bucks and 2 doe (w/LAMPS permits. One of those bucks being a spike or unbranched on one side. I am still confused as to how TPWD allowing hunters to kill an immature buck along with a mature buck is going to improve the age structure of the herd? That itself is freaking ridiculous! Age structure is how this pile of excrement is being to sold to us, right?

I can see many ways that limits/laws could have been changed to improve the herd, and been much more effective than this carp we've had forced upon us. None of which I would agree with as a whole because it would force "management" on people/landowners who don't want it.

To those who love AR's. You could practice management whether AR's were in place or not. If you didn't like the rack size/age structure of you herd, you could always go south or west in search of larger/older deer. Just as I did years ago when that was what I wanted. It is also a pretty safe assumption on my part that acre for acre, there are probably more landowners in east tx who hunt their own land than leasers, when compared to south/west/central Tx. A MUCH larger percentage of the land in those areas is leased for hunting rights.

So naturally, people that lease land to hunt, and have always leased land to hunt, will have a much different perspective on this than those who do not lease land. More of the leasers will hunt in non-AR counties than not. And if this is the case, then any argument in public domain will be skewed to the AR-in-favor crowd. it's demographics plain and simple. My advice is EVERYONE step back and take an honest/objective view of things, then enter the fray. I have seen both sides, and have formed my opinions based on that.

I aggree with ^^^^

That's the exact mentality that has so many people in East Texas pissed off.

Why is it "cooler" to shoot a buck than a doe? What is cool about shooting an unimpressive buck?

You always have something to remember a buck by when memories start to fade, I'm young and cannot remember all the does I've shot, but have antlers laying around of every buck I've shot (somewhere) and can remember all the details for each deer.

Same reason rifleman said, I bet you can walk into anyones garage or trophy room and I bet that person can tell you where those said antlers came from. same reason people pick up sheds or stop on the side of a road and take a picture of a dead buck that was hit by a car.

Just across the river on HWY 7 W. Loco Creek bottom in the Seed Tick Community.

And I can guarantee you that these people are meat hunters. Don't lie to yourself, you're not a meat hunter, youre after the antlers.

based on what?

What do you mean based on what? Your question makes no sense.

Sorry you didn't comprehend it.

I just don't get how you know that meat hunters are really after antlers.

My bad, but how did I know that would be your reply.

It's been 5 years since I've spent a dime on a lease, so maybe I shouldn't even join the fray...but because the reason I stopped leasing was due to the "brown and down" mentality of the "hunters" I dealt with on the last few leases, I'll go ahead and say my piece 

In my last 6 years on 2 East Tx leases, I shot 1 buck...a 4 1/2 year old wide 4 point. No brow tines, only small forks at the tips. I also saw numerous 1 1/2-2 1/2 year old 6 and 8 points, with beautiful basket racks, that had great potential. And watched them for hours on end...just waiting for them to get older. Only to get to camp and see them hanging in a tree, with some lame brained idiot from a stand or two over who was whooping and hollering about the "nice" buck he had just shot! Really?!? Ugh...it sickened me that these foolish people cared only about a "buck" instead of a mature buck! 

I'm by no means a trophy hunter...quite the contrary. I've killed many doe, for meat, and allowed the bucks to mature until it was something that I would be willing to show others. Does that mean I agree with the 13" rule? Yes and no go ahead and grab the popcorn, fellas

Reasons against: I've seen some MONSTER 8-9 pointers with extremely thick, chocolate racks that went straight up! The biggest buck I've ever seen in front of me was in Polk County off of 356 headed towards Trinity on Thanksgiving week in 2005...an absolute bruiser near Sebastopol, Tx, standing on the side of the road. And it would have been hard to tell me he wasn't mature, yet he MAY have been 11" at the most. Yet he most definitely was a 125-130" despite no width. I thought he was a "sting" buck, turned around to see for myself, an the wife and I actually stopped, rolled the window down, and until she spoke, he never moved. But when he bolted and ran 20 yards and hit the brush, my blood was pumping like crazy at the reality that he was indeed a real, live brute! Yet by AR regulations, no one can shoot him. Yet a yearling spike is fair game??? I'm of the understanding that the spike (one slick horn) exception is technically for older mature deer who will not be anything more than a slick on one side. I've seen them myself and taken them. 

Reasons for: the problem you run into is not many people in a 1 buck county (for those who say that lowering the limit is the answer) will take that as their 1 buck, and he will pass his genes on until dying of natural causes. Sadly, most people spending $1000+ to hunt aren't going to "waste" their tag on a spike. Therefore TPW raises the limit to 2 bucks and the idiots shoot a 13"+ and a yearling spike. But reality is this...it's a lose-lose situation. Management minded hunters will always be management minded, and the idiots (notice I didn't say "meat hunters" because TRUE meat hunters will take the bad gene spikes and the doe and let good gene bucks mature and spread their seed) will always be idiots...nothing will change that. Therefore TPWD is TRYING to help the majority of hunters have a decent herd of quality, mature bucks. 

So I'm not gonna vote totally against the AR rules. I've seen more mature bucks being taken this year that people aren't having to 'sneak' off of the lease from embarrassment. If you've ever felt that you couldn't show a buck to anyone, you already know you shouldn't have shot it. But many men have done that very thing. I've got plenty of relatives who shoot first and worry later...and when I was 12-13 years old I did the same. But after a few years of spending hard earned money on a lease, I grew to hate that mentality. I'm now in my mid 30's, and next year plan on finding a lease and joining back in with the crowd. Now that the AR's are in place, I'll be able to go to camp without wanting to beat someone senseless

Okay, that was a little lengthy...I'll try to keep it shorter next time

that's some pretty country.. we're spread out around Chireno.

Actually I think some people are glad your not on a lease anymore. You are actually the type of person we kick off a lease
First off if you bag on someone for what they shot then you have lost or never knew what hunting is really about. Sure if you shoot a young buck at our camp you gonna get razzed a little bit about it but I will be the first to help you clean it and load in the truck for you and hand you a beer. If a certain deer gets you all giggly inside but is not what one person would call "mature" so be it. Guess what there are 3,999,999 more deer left in Texas.

Calling people idiots because they don't share the same beliefs, only makes you look like the idiot.

I think next time you should get on a lease with like-minded individuals.

Trust me, I learned my lesson well Bill...I joined those due to family connections (ex-family now) and while I enjoyed the time with my in-laws, the rest of the group wasn't all that great. Thus the reason I've taken a few years off. Most leases of like minded individuals in East Texas have waiting lists. But I'd rather wait than not enjoy myself

If TPWD were really concerned, not just a money gathering State
entity...It would make it mandatory to kill spikes (free) and doe
(free) to get a buck tag...They want the legislation,,,guess what
it's how they pay the bill...

Most of the older better Wardens are retiring as soon as they can
watch what replaces them...DD