black panther ?

pic taken by girlfriends sister inlaw in arizona while out on a hike

Jaguar? Or booner house cat?

It’s not black. It’s the angle of the sun. I know the cactus trees are not black either.

Bobcat

Lighting, as others have said. Photo was taken on the dark side.

lol That's what they all say. Arizona is a big place. Southern part its a Jag from south of the border. But I will wait for Gary to chime in?

Not bobcat, clearly a Mountain Lion but NOT black as others have pointed out. The picture simply shows the 'shadow' side of the cat, just like other items in the pic.

It amazes me that in this day and age that folks still persist with the idea of Black Panthers (in America). Or 'Bigfoot'.

But walk into any barbershop and bring the subject up and you'll find someone that claims to have seen one or both. A sad commentary on the intelligence of some folks IMO.

Yup.....

Dang, now you guys are gonna say that Santa Claus isn’t real.

He actually died in a Nazi concentration camp in 1943. Sad, but true.

Agree with most, shady side of the cat.

Cool pic for sure

A lot of folks believe a lot of stuff that isn't true.

100% black panther...can't believe y'all can't see that in the picture

Puma

Black panthers are real though and look like this.

"Sorry I got in a fight in the middle of your black panther party."

What, nobody’s concerned about that orange UFO?

No because everyone agrees that orange UFOs exist.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^^^^

winner winner chicken dinner

It's times like this that I really miss you know who...

Certainly not a house cat....as we have enough vegetation of roughly known scale to estimate the size of the cat.

Unlikely a Jaguar, since only 7 documented sightings have occurred in Arizona since 1996 (the last quarter century) and THEN it would have to be a black/melanistic specimen making the possibility all the more slim.

Its a Cougar alright...just photographed on the shady side.

With respect to Jaguars and Cougars....typically Jaguars are larger, heavier and stockier in build (if mature and in good shape). The outline of the cat pictured strongly suggests a Cougar.

As for the label "Panther" I know it is used liberally (but incorrectly) a Mountain Lion/Cougar is not even in that genus of cats (Panthera). The Cougar is of genus (Puma) and is not even considered one of the 'Big Cats'. Lion, Tiger, Leopard and Jaguar are in the genus (Pantera) and are big cats, all of which can 'roar' owing to certain anatomical features.

No.....this is yet another claim by those desperate to believe in that which doesn't exist (black cougars/black panther). Same folks are easily sucked in by the notion of a Bigfoot/Sasquatch.

With respect to the latter (Bigfoot) you needn't look any further than South Louisiana for the answer. IF a Bigfoot existed....the 'Cajuns' there would have a recipe for it and they don't. Hence they don't exist (bigfoot).

But what if its the shady side of a black panther?

Even our thugs dressed better in the old days!

Show me the sunny side of a 'Black Panther' (documented pic of a Black Mountain Lion) and then we'll discuss it.

Very cool pic for sure

Is there any way from looking at an outline to tell if it is a cougar or jaguar?

Great movie.

It would take a discerning eye, relatively close distances, good light conditions and the assumption that both species were 'representative' (I.E. mature, in good health).

But generally speaking, a Jaguar is stockier in build, has a noticeably more powerful looking head and neck.



I would never attempt to make a positive I.D. based on outline alone, but when you consider other things like the historical range of each animal and population (Cougars all over Arizona, Jaguars very Rarely documented) it adds to the likelihood (one way or the other).

There is a site I follow devoted to Texas Black Panther sightings and the people on that site who believe they have seen a black panther over look two things. First, Mountain lions do not even carry the gene for melanism or being black and there has never been a black one killed in the US or anywhere else. Secondly, black jaguars are only about 6% of the population of jaguars so where are all the spotted ones we would be seeing in Texas if people keep seeing black ones, especially in East Texas! There are black leopards in Asia and perhaps Africa but those are not native to our hemisphere. I've heard it all...circus train wrecks, drug smugglers escaped pets, canned hunt escapees, government releasing them to control hogs HAHA, etc. Where are the clear pictures or game camera pictures or road kill. Believers on that site constantly try to pass off pictures that are easily backtracked on the internet and were taken in India or somewhere like that.

Generally bushier tail on a jag, slim on a cougar.
Jaguars typically don’t have much dip in the back even as they age.

I don’t have much experience with either, but it’s what I have noticed.

I am amazed by the people that I have met that claim to have seen black panthers. One guy, a friend of mine, has literally seen more black panthers than he has seen mountain lions (2:1). Apparently having seen one a second time just confirmed for him that his first sighting was valid. A couple of people I have met have never seen a mountain lion, but have seen black panthers (all singular sightings).

And yeah, they all have rationalizations for why they have seen something unknown to science or the vast hunting community that has never killed one.

Bobcat. Legs are too skinny to be a lion or jaguar. The bush makes it look like it has a long tail, but there isn't a tail visible in the picture. It's a great shot that makes you think, but there is no such thing as a Black Panther. There are jaguars that are almost black, but you can still see the pattern of their spots.

I agree with this. The limb from the tree looks like a long tail.

Mtn lion, it could be a jag, as all the Az pics I googled aren’t plump like the southern Mexico Jags.

Cool pic nonetheless

no mater what.. It was a neat picture. I've seen two mountain lions here in Texas and they were long gone by the time I got my camera out

What amazes me is the level of ignorance, shallow thinking or outright intellectual dishonesty.

You can find literally hundreds of people in every State (California to Florida and everything in between) with claims of having seen a Black Panther.

Now I know full well that some folks have actually seen 'something' black (house-cat, hog, whatever) and simply choose to assign its identification as a Black Panther....because that's what they want to believe (despite NO empirical evidence ever having been produced). So I'll be generous and say that 50% of those just made a 'mistake'.

The others seem to genuinely believe in the existence of the animal and will argue to the bitter end they are right.

So.....lets apply just a teeny, tiny bit of logic to the notion:

1. For THOUSANDS of people to have 'absolutely' seen one of these elusive devils, there MUST be quite a few Black Panthers around right?

2. For quite a few Black Panthers to be around there must quite a few breeding pairs around....correct? After all these claims have been made for at least a century.

3. OR....there are only a few Black Panther around but Damn....do they get around. Travelers on a scale like we've never seen. But SO secretive that no one has ever gotten one on a game camera, killed one or found one dead.

Is it really too much to ask folks to live in a world of reality!

NO black panthers, NO bigfoots.

Here's an interesting read on the subject:

http://texascryptidhunter.blogspot.com/2014/04/americas-black-panthers-new-theory.html

Mountain lion for sure and this one is not a black Mountain Lion.

Why would anyone think that there could not be a melanistic mountain lion/cougar in the United States like there are deer, coyote's and other animals?

It has been scientifically proven that mountain lions do not have the gene that produces melanism. Although many other animals do, the mountain lion does not. There is a lot of info on the internet about that fact.

Oh come on Ringtail don't start citing scientific facts versus urban legends

I don't think that the Mountain Lion Genome has been completely Sequenced, so we can't completely rule out the possibility of melanism in Mountain Lions. BUT from we do know....the likelihood of such is astronomically against it.

And even IF there were a substantiated sighting or better....a carcass to study, it would not, could not account for the thousands of reported sightings made or claimed each year. People just WANT to believe in such nonsense. Not sure what thrill that gives them or why.....but way too many people living in a dream world IMO.

And isn't that amazing that there are so many purported sightings without there being any actual proof of any kind, ever?

Chupacabra.

Ha ha! you might be right!

Hey I have seen both in Young County and I don’t drink or do drugs!

Clay Newcomb’s daddy swears they exist. Says he used to hear them at night all the time.

Every single type animal in North America has been found dead by somebody, somewhere, except the mythical black panther. Seems to me that if one was ever actually found, it might be worth quite a bit of money. Cabela's would be the first place I'd try to sell it, but I'm sure there are other collectors that would pay six figures for something like that.

The most common sightings that I've heard of are from somebodies daddy, who said he saw one. Daddy saw it out in the back pasture and he hunted all his like and knows what he's talking about. LMAO

We had a very large black feral cat around for about a year, but not near big enough for anyone with any sense to identify as a panther. It walked like an angry pit bull who thought no one could jack with him. I'm sure a yote eventually put it in touch with reality.

Game Wardens call them black lab sightings.

In my neck of the woods (Deep East Texas, Pineywoods) they aren't seen as much as they are supposedly 'heard'.

Screaming in the night!

The sad part is that most of these are farmers and ranchers. You would think they would know the sound of Gray Fox calling at night, but apparently not.

In lieu of that (not being able to identify the various night sounds), wouldn't you think simple logic would come into play?

Is there really a Mountain Lion (or Black Panther) living on your place night after night and screaming all the time! What are the odds of that.

No.....this is a deliberate decision to keep alive old myths and wive's tales. Don't understand what folks get out of that.....but it is what it is.

Those people also belong to the Bigfoot websites no doubt.

I've been hunting in Texas since the late 80's and have yet to hunt an area where some landowner or hunter didn't report having seen a panther.

TRUTH!

Look up Joe Rogan black panther. I'm not going to post the link. It has enough profanity that I would need to ban myself for 2 weeks. The comments are as funny as the video.

The number of responders claiming to have seen black panthers, some multiple times, is just amazing. ID10Ts.

Rogan had no idea what he is talking about. I like how he has a video from his security cameras at night, but doesn't show the video. Imagine that.

When I was hog hunting in south carolina a few years ago, the guide was dropping me off at my stand and pulled me aside and told me that a few weeks before he had seen not one but a pair of black panthers in the same location twice in the last few weeks.

He told me that he contacted fish and wildlife and asked if there were black leopards in south carolina. They said no. And then he asked if he could shoot them. They said no it was illegal. Which is kind of weird as they supposedly didnt exist.

This was a guy that grew up hunting in the south and was a guide for years so unless he was totally [censored] with me I don't think he would misidentify any animal. I was thinking maybe black jaguars? Since they are actually native to the US. But that being said what would be the odds of seeing two black ones, exponential? Definitely weird.

Melanism does not occur in mountain lions. Zero. There is almost zero melanism in bobcats with only two clusters. Ten melanistic bobcats have been documented in Florida and two in New Brunswick. Melanism does occur in jaguarundis, which look like a small version of a mountain lion. Melanism also occurs in jaguars, which are very big cats, double the size of a mature mountain lion.

The myth could just be people having a little fun...

https://store.themeateater.com/products/MEBGBBKOS.html?lang=en_US&cgid=meateater-hats

Watched one trying to sneak up on deer in wheat field back in the 80's in Dickens County for about 10 minutes....... wheat field was probably 400 yards from my blind

Just at a glance I don’t think it’s even any type cat look like someone’s burro

I have books with stories written by Texans in the 1800's that talk about panthers. Not black panthers, just panthers. They were talking about mountain lions, which back then were much more widespread than today. So some of the talk about panthers were handed down from the old folks telling stories and they started out as true. Panther was just the word the pioneers used for large cats.

I know there's no true black panthers in Texas, but it's till fun to kid about. Some of you guys are too serious. Campfire stories are part of hunting.

We've probably got some of the same books, or
read some of the same ones.
Lots of mountain lions mentioned killing livestock
and some going after settler's family and friends.
One account of a woman and children in a cabin
with a lion pacing back and forth on the roof
smelling the food smells from the hearth going
up the chimney from cooking.
Having to get up in the wee hours to check for
lions or black bears in the chicken house or hog
pen. Having to run nearly tame deer out of the
garden patch or out of the cow barn when penning
the cows at night etc.
Different times back then

Those subdivision settlers today wouldn't have a clue!

I think a lot of times it is the position of the sun, makes it look black.

Campfire 'Stories' are just that (stories). Meant to be entertaining, mostly unbelievable or IF truthful....highly embellished and it is well understood.

The idea of REAL Black Panthers/Sasquatch/Bigfoot (in the U.S) existing has been propagated by so many folks....that its just ridiculous IMO.

It's not done in 'fun'....these folks really, really....believe in it. I can't think of a time when society needed a bigger shot of Common Sense and Reality. But alas....it is not to be had.

Don’t be a killjoy. Let people have their fun. Next you will tell us there are no chupacabras in TX.

Oh, it's easy to tell if that was a black panther. Did it cross it's arms and shout "WAKANDA FOREVER" ??

I can deal with the housecat/bobcat/jagaroondee/panther debate. But this is past the line. Where's them new Mods at?

Too many people living in a fantasy world.

Kinda sad IMO.

Agreed. Campfire stories are fun. Sadly, too many people don't know the difference between campfire stories and reality. These stories get repeated enough and people believe them out of familiarity and pretty soon people start seeing black panthers where none have ever existed. They take photographs of them in dubious circumstances, often with the same cameras used to take pics of bigfoot. I don't know the brand, but you can tell the same sort of gear is being used because you often can't tell scale/size and the "black panther" is always blurry, like bigfoot images, LOL.

I still can't believe how many hunters have seen them hunting and yet have never shot one, or if they did shoot one, they buried it in a secret location, fearing that they had possibly broken the law, or they just never took a photo of it...the only black panther they had ever killed in their entire lives. So the bodies are claimed to exist, but NO, we can't examine them, LOL.

Is it so hard for people to produce just one single black panther body? These are common, right? They are literally seen all over the state with countless reported sightings from every county. People seem to see these more often than they see regular, non-melanistic mountain lions, which strangely are known and proven to exist.

I am on a place now trapping and killing hogs and it is some nasty thicket mixed with deep dark ravines and a big river bottom structure with giant trees giving it little sunlight. Tall grasses and shorter thicket that is pretty much not navigable. ( I carry a pruning shears in my pocket to cut my way through some of it)The landowner is 83 years old and has asked me not to shoot the black panthers or any big cat because even a black panther can look light colored in the sun. Ok I said.
He also told me not to shoot the Chupacabras' as he has had the discovery channel out a few times and says they are a coyote/wolf hybrid. Which does actually exist in Texas but now he says no coyotes as I may mistake it for one of his Chupa's. Ok I said.
He also told me not to shoot his miniature Mexican deer as they have come up river and have been seen at his place. Ok I said.
What can I say to the guy other than yes sir, you got it.

What about his jackalopes??

everyone knows they are real!

wow, I bet you are fun at parties.

Pictures of hogs so we know this story is true.

Its true

I don't go to parties to talk about imaginary Unicorns, Black Panthers, Sasquatch, Fairy Dust, Lost gold mines, etc....

I will leave that to the folks so pathetic that this is their only source of entertainment or conversation.

So, yeah....I could suck all the fun right out that kind of room.

Not a mountain lion, but Canada just had its first reported melanistic lynx.

This came out in the journal Mammalia. https://www.researchgate.net/public..._melanism_in_Canada_lynx_Lynx_canadensis

Here is an article showing video...
https://phys.org/news/2022-10-black-canada-lynx.html

Before somebody says that if it can happen in lynx, it can happen in mountain lions, well maybe. However, it isn't like everyone and their cousin in Canada has seen or knows folks that have seen these things. There is no black lynx mythos in Canada like there is for black panthers here.

So I still have to fall back on the side of logic. How come so many people claim to see these black panthers, including hunters, so they are apparently super duper common, and yet we don't have a single body either through hunting, trapping, roadkills, etc.?

No question about that one. Pretty dang cool!

Only black panther parties.

I've hunted and killed numerous bobcats, one mountain lion (in colorado) and dozens upon dozens of feral cats. One mid day in Coleman county, I had a long black cat ( 4 ft from snout to tip of tail) stop in the middle of the road about 20 yards from me. Had no idea what the hell it was. Short legs, long tail, strange head. Maybe a juvenile mountain lion?

Googled a picture of a jaguarundi. I could have taken the same picture. They are known to live along our southern border into mexico and south america.

Maybe they are more widespread than is currently understood. And could definitely lead to an incorrect report of a black panther.

OK....lets run with that.

Certainly Jaguarundi exist, they are known to be present in Deep South Texas. Some are even dark gray (almost charcoal) though that is not their most prominent color.

But for arguments sake....lets say someone (Maybe even you) saw one...and saw one well outside their normal 'known' range.

I can accept the idea of a 'few' Jaguarundi sightings and them being mistaken for a 'Black Panther'. But NOT thousands of sightings ALL over Texas let alone the rest of the lower 48.

So how do you reconcile this? An animal even rarer than a Mountain Lion, one with the Black/Dark Gray color phase being seen by so many people. What are the chances?

How many people have even seen an ordinary Mountain Lion in the wild (of which there are many more than Jaguarundi) and of which we KNOW have a huge range (from Canada down to South America).

But we are to believe that somehow the dark Jaguarundi have secretively expanded their range and that this could be the answer to the Black Panthers.

Its amazing to me that folks labor so....to keep this myth alive.

It will be a myth until one walks out in front of you. Hope you can keep it to yourself. Not fun being called a delusional liar.

No, it will still be a myth until somebody produces a body, just like with Bigfoot.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof and that just doesn't exist for either.

Here are some photos from work I have done on some ranches in South Texas.

So you got a blob and two cat images in silhouette in the shade against a really bright background. The cat in the silhouette images could be green, pink, or purple and we would never know for certain, though the little bit of light on the cat's back would indicate it may be a lighter color.

Not my video, but pretty amazing. Note how small the head is compared to the body. Mountain lions have very large heads.

Your comments reveal your lack of knowledge on field i.d.

Jaguarundis have very unique shape heads and bodies, as do bobcats, mountain lions, deer, and bears.

This thread is really finding its legs now!

I will add to this discussion that a couple of years ago a ranch owner contacted me about a ranch hand killing two jaguarundis. The ranch hand thought they were small mountain lions and brought them to the owner. He knew what they were and called me knowing my efforts to help the cats. Long story made short, we never could work out an agreement with the bureaucracy at USFWS to turn them over.

That event caused some internal shakeup and today I should be able to work out a transfer. Another ranch had a hunter who killed an ocelot thinking it was a bobcat. That information was turned over successfully for everyone.

But understand, there is a strong effort to refuse to accept new evidence of jaguarundis. There is a very organized effort underway by large companies doing business in South Texas to have jaguarundis, ocelots, and some other endangered species declared extinct or soon to be extinct and removed from federal protection so they can do their dirty deeds without consequence.

There is a very well developed and organized plan to turn Port Aransas to Corpus Christi into the next Houston Ship Channel for major industrial development. That plan will result in more condemnation of private lands for pipelines, power lines, roads, and other infrastructure.

The Space X operations at Boca Chica have run ocelots out of the Laguna Atascosa NWR where the population has declined by half in just a few years.

The politicians have USFWS and TPWD turn a blind eye.

As always, private landowners are the best stewards of land and wildlife in this state.

I am very fortunate to be able to see some incredibly beautiful ranches and help them protect their land, water, and animals.

There are some very rare plants and animals on some of these ranches with owners doing their best everyday to save them.

I sat at a table with a ranch owner who lived a modest life living in a mobile home on a beautiful property, which he knew had ocelots. A pipeline company offered him $5 million if he would drop his claim to have ocelots on his land. The man told them to keep their money and leave his cats alone.

That deep passion and fierce protection of land and God’s little creatures gives me hope. We live in a unique land with many very wild areas still remaining.

LOL, I am 1000% certain your 2nd image is of a cat which is all that I said and apparently the 3rd image is the second image with the cat's head hidden. The first image looks like a blob.

And your positive identification of the two cats?

^^^^^^

Hah....I thought the first pic was an Ink Blot Test...!

Who sees the two black panthers in this one?

I see a tramp stamp.

For all you skeptics out here, please see proof positive of the existence of back panthers. Both deer have alerted to it.

I see a fleur-de-lis with a possum crawling up the left side and a raccoon crawling up the right side.

Ah, the sweet arguments among hunters. Some defending panthers and some getting real upset about it. Great entertainment.

For all those skeptics out there, finally found a clear photo of a black panther. He looks tense and ready to pounce.

That is some of the best proof I have seen, Hudbone!

Yep.

Definitely see it now.

Black as it can be.

Deer picked it off though.

I have a black panther that lives on my back porch. I feed him Meow Mix so he won’t kill my dogs.

^^^That's one cool cat.

Agreed......!

There was a black cat that lived next door when I was in college. Next door was all jazzers, most of them in the North Texas 1 o'clock Lab Band (many went on to pro careers). They named him Miles. The thing was, if he was in the middle of the street and a car came up and slowed, he'd turn and look at the car exactly like Miles would look at the audience...with contempt and disdain. 'Course, that cat was probably so high all the time he could hunt ducks with a rake.

It doesn’t appear to be doing that in the OP’s pic, but if you squint thru the shadows it looks like it’s wearing a T-shirt that says: “By any means necessary…!”



SFH

Mud can turn about anything black. Cougar are not afraid of water and therefore may like a mud bath now and again.

Don't know if that explains any claims of black Cougar sighting but I think it possible.

Jaguarundi, no doubt.

I have plenty of doubt in that idea.

Looks kind of tall for jagurandi

Mountain Lion......just on the shadow side of sun, just like the cactus behind it.

Was on my Texas Panhandle facebook page today.

BLACK PANTHERS SPOTTED ON THE TEXAS PANHANDLE
About three years ago I was pulling my backhoe, following Plumbing Contractor Terry and Charlotte Shoffner out to the jobsite to install a new septic system and to clean out a large cattle guard. We went through Tell headed to a ranch South of Turkey.
A large black Puma/Cougar ran across the road in front of them. When we got to the ranch it was mentioned to the Rancher. He said several other people had seen it and they had lost several calfs in that area. Didn't think it was unusual as I had seen a cougar out at the CeeVee farming community while hunting back in the late 60s and seen many tracks through the years out on the Jones property, now the Whilhite property, South of Childress. Also one crossed 287 in front of me about 2 miles North of Childress about where the Drive In theater used to be in the late 90s.
The reason I'm bringing this up is I just watched a documentary stating there are no black cats in the State of Texas or any area North of the Mexican border, actually North of Central America. They had the State Biologist of Texas and Oklahoma both making this statement. They claimed if you thought it was black was because it was seen at night and you just thought it was black.
The sighting I previously mentioned South of Turkey was at around 8:15 on a bright, clear, sparkling morning.
The documentary stated the chances of a black cougar , melanistic, is about one in a million and anyone claiming to see a black cat is just mistaken. Also stated all Jaguars had been killed out in the U.S. by the 1880s.

Not again..............

https://texashuntingforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1304504/all/Black_Panther

Black panther is a misnomer for a black jaguar, black ocelot or the smaller jaguarundi. Having worked and hunted in remote areas of Central and South America for many years, I have seen much of the wildlife that seems to be quite abundant in Texas according to reports. I have seen pumas, jaguars, ocelots and jaguarundi in one or more of the following countries: Panama, Colombia, Bolivia, Paraguay, Peru, Ecuador, Argentina and Brasil. The "black panther" at the old Fort Sherman Zoo in Panama looked almost identical to the puma in the cage next to it. However, it was in fact a small female jaguar (proven by tests). The only other "black panther" I ever saw was also in Panama. It came to check out the salt lick where I was bow hunting for javelina or brocket deer. It was definitely a large black ocelot or a small black jaguar like the one in the zoo. The Kuna Indian with me agreed.

But I do enjoy hearing all the reports of sightings here in our great state.

Safe hunting and Happy Christmas

I guess black panther could be a misnomer for some, such as mountain lions (also a misnomer as they aren't lions) and ocelots, but not for jaguars (Panthera onca). Black panther for New World jaguars is actually an alternative common name for those that are particularly dark. It also seems to be incorrect applied to the likes of margay and ocelot as well, but these are in a different sub family from jaguars and leopards (Felinae vs. Pantherinae). Of course, they are not to be confused with the black panthers of Africa (such as Panthera pardis) or mythical melanistic mountain lions of North and Central America (at discussion here). Part of the reason for the Linnean binomial nomenclature system was to specifically nail down individual animal types to a particular species name. This made possible the separation of multiples of animals called the same common name that seems to cause so much confusion (e.g., black panthers). On the other hand, the system also helped work out when multiples of common names were applied to a particular animal, such as with our mountain lion. Just look at the list of common names for mountain lions...

cougar
puma
mountain lion
panther (not actually a panther either, LOL)
catamount
mountain screamer
mountain cat
painter

And about 34 other common names all for the same exact species.

And don't forget that when you say "black panther" is a misnomer, countless people claimed to have seen black mountain lions (Puma concolor). The issue isn't with the name so much as the eyes. They aren't seeing Panthera oncas and they aren't seeing jaguarundis. If they are, there are many thousand of them running around Texas that people keep seeing, but nobody seems to be able to ever actually kill one, not even on the highway. Lots of hunters see them in Texas, but none ever kill them. Mone are ever shown to wardens or scientists, nor are any ever photographed uniquivocally. People who have claimed to have killed them always have done so under mysterious circumstances that explain away how it is that they don't have pictures, body parts, or a completely body. This always amazes me, like claims of kills of Bigfoot, somebody could claim to be the first, to have the first known specimen, and yet it gets left in the woods for some reason.

DNS,

within the last couple of years, I had a ranch contact me to turn over two dead jaguarundis that a ranch hand killed thinking they were young mountain lions. The ranch tried to do the right thing understanding the importance and significance of jaguarundis. The USFWS supervisor for South Texas and retired head of law enforcement for USFWS tried to help work out an agreement to not prosecute the ranch hand. Tragically, the LEO running law enforcement for USFWS in the area would not agree. So the two carcasses were not turned over and the ranch hand returned to Mexico last I heard. I can share more examples of how politics drives TPWD and USFWS in Texas to not protect these cats or ocelots either. A refuge manager for one of the South Texas refuges reported seeing a jaguarundi on his refuge and he wanted to put out game cameras. He was given a strong re-education speech that he did not see a jaguarundi and they were not to put out any cameras. Those are just two fairly recent examples and there are more.

Politics has thoroughly infested wildlife protection and research just as it has medicine, law, and so many other areas.

The success of the ESA act is both glorious and sad at same time. It’s become profit center for many eco-terrorist lawyers. Sad because it’s done some great things

Bobo,

I am friends with a man that was a Whitehouse staff lawyer for Richard Nixon who helped write the ESA. We talk sometimes about how it has turned into a massive industry of consultants that burn massive amounts of money with only slivers of the funding going to actually protect wildlife.

It is hard for the younger folks to realize, the Endangered Species Act, Clean Water Act, and Clean Air Act are relatively recent laws that made huge leaps forward in improving where we and wildlife live. All three were signed into law by Richard Nixon, which is not that long ago.

Personally, just my two cents, we need to start looking at new models for wildlife that will keep the common wildlife common, rather than waiting until they are on the brink of extinction.

The single biggest crisis facing wildlife in this state right now is the rapidly diminishing quantity and quality of water that is safe for them to drink or live in. That same crisis also is looming for people in this state, yet no politician will dare say there is no more room for more people and businesses to move here.

Guest and myself were driving way back in the pasture in broad daylight when we both thought we saw a bobcat cross the sendero about 25-30 yards in front of us. We weren't drinking. Done said, "Look a bobcat!", only there was a noticeable pause between a and bobcat. We stopped briefly with both of us trying to process what we just saw.

Whatever we saw, it was definitely feline. No doubt there (zero). It was about the same height as a large bobcat, but the body was about one and a half times as long, larger and deeper (ie: belly closer to the ground). It did not have the powerful shoulders of a lion nor did it walk like a bobcat. It was longer and still a slender creature. The colorings were somewhat of a greyish brown with the brown being more dominant. The tail did not curl and was somewhat akin to a broom stick. On the proceeding me and Done are in mutual agreement. Where we disagreed on was the length of the tail. I believed it to be 12 - 14 inches with some thinking it was closer to two feet.

Came back to camp where another hunter claimed to to have had a brief glimpse of the same animal a week prior two miles east of that spot, but was "afraid" to bring it up. No idea here - totally clueless (as usual). Yes, we googled jaguarundi and do believe there are similarities there, but each of us are not willing to make that assertion.

Not sure why you wanted to inform me of this, but okay...

Politics has thoroughly infested any endeavor that involves the government spending money on it. Strange how people don't realize it until they find something they don't like about it, LOL. Politics has been involved in every public park that has been established or wild animal species that isn't or is not afforded protection by the government. This is a given at this point in history, not a revelation.

So what you are telling me is that the government isn't protecting cats. Okay.

Apparently, they do.
https://www.vcstar.com/story/news/l...y-killing-mountain-lion-p-38/3857687002/
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9296830/hunters-mountain-lion-wyoming-yellowstone/

Politics, LOL
https://www.cbsnews.com/colorado/ne...pitol-riot-hunting-mountain-lion-arrest/

Again, I am not sure what this has to do with black panthers



So bring back the grizzlies and wolves! I am right there with you! We also really need to re-establish the native range of alligators while we are at it. Definitely need to see more black bears. More elk would be nice as well.

Well we went from decent conversation on jaguarundi’s and the need for ESA changes to California ballot biology and non/ threatened Mountain lions and hunting in National parks.

If you get the chance to go thru Bearizona in Williams AZ, they have a couple beautiful jaguars there. One normal one, and the other is almost pure black. Up close, you can just barely make out the rosettes, but they are still there.

Believe this or not but my crew spotted a black panther by the Melissa landfill, Then a year later we saw a big long tail cat about 5 miles east of there towards Blue Ridge.

yep, mountain lion