Western Hunting

I was reading comments on an Instagram page recently talking about outlawing game cameras in some western states especially during season. I was surprised when I read a ton of comments talking about all these guided outfits that have like 10 people with 1 hunter. Said they post up all over looking for big deer and communicate via radios. Many people said they can’t stand these groups and would rather see the radios outlawed than game cams bc it gives an unfair advantage. Is this really that common? Do guides send out a bunch of people to spot deer and then just call you over to take the shot? Never hunted out west so never been there to see it myself. From the comments it sounds like some are obviously worse about it than others. If it is common what’s your opinion on it? I can see where it would def give a DIYer much less of an advantage.

Western outfitters are intense. its not uncommon for a sheep hunt to involve 6-8 guys, most of them spotters. When a sheep is spotted they radio over to the hunter.


I'm not for it.

There are probably half a dozen to a dozen outfits that will deploy an army of folks to find the biggest animal in a unit for a “client” (or even a whole state if a Governor’s tag). When I drew my AZ desert bighorn tag back in 2014 a prominent ex MLB player had a tag in the same unit. He had a total posse of about 45 people helping him (counting cooks and wranglers, etc.). Had about 6 different groups out looking for a ram. We were hunting a missile range and on about the 3rd day the powers that be limited him to 6 people total on the range at any one time. His group was done before we got there, this was all relayed to me by range personnel when we checked in.

IDK if I would call it “common” because not many can afford it but it is very widespread. Lots of folks working for a few well-heeled clients. Not my cup of tea.

My personal code is me, guide, and possibly wrangler if he wants to hang with us. No issue with splitting up to glass but not into different groups spread out all over a unit or state or large area.

Never heard of such.

That's ridiculous.

I wouldn't outlaw it - you're still just taking 1 animal in season - but I would say it's a bit ridiculous and should be considered a poor practice.

I say if you can afford it then why not, who am I to say what’s right or wrong for somebody else. That’s what they do in communist country’s and this ain’t one

The outfits that do it are in fierce competition with one another. There us even a sort of behind the scenes game that goes on with “free agents” who play outfits against one another to get top dollar once they locate a big animal. Social media also plays a big role. It’s all about the biggun. Once he’s located he’s usually a goner. Still, many are never located by the big outfits and either make it through or are taken by regular folks.

Right, the 'fairness' aspect isn't to the animals, but to the hunters. Bob the outfitter who doesn't have a team will not think it is fair that Corporate Big Game outfit has an operation that team hunts.

No doubt a lot of sheep hunts are group efforts simply because many who draw a tag have lots of family and friends who want to share in the experience. It becomes a social event. I can’t really knock that.

I’ve had several offers on both sheep and goat hunts where guys wanted to go along, film the hunts, etc. I appreciated the offers but I prefer a much more low key personal experience. Now if a close family member or very close friend wanted to go that would be different but none are really into sheep hunting. I have a buddy from BC (my bear guide from 2013) that may go on my next one and I would love to have him since he is 10x the sheep hunter I am.

Sheep hunting has lots of variation all the way from solo DIY guys in the MT Unlimiteds for weeks on end to posses of a dozen or more finding a ram and flying a hunter in for the shot where he’s out about 4 hours total. And everything in between. And not just sheep, all western big game.

I don’t care either way really just had never heard of it till I read through all those comments. Does seem a little unfair if you have 40 people spread out through a unit trying to find the biggest deer but if it’s legal Then do it until it’s not.

Without desiring to start a fight, I don’t think it can be argued that those who employ the armies are much more focused on the size of an animal than on the hunting experience itself. IMO they are very much shortchanging themselves.

Nicely put. I'd never make such silliness illegal, but I'd be lying if I didn't say that I look down on those who are so shallow.

It damn sure isn’t “fair chase”

Damn, this is going to be a western high fence thread.

Outfitter Doyle Moss is the world's worst 'posse" outfitter. They have an army of guys who find and keep track of the biggest animals they can find, then call some lardasss to show up and shoot it. Hero shots thereafter.

My buddy drew a bighorn sheep tag in Utah year before last.

He got a great sheep, but stumbled across two other teams of guys while looking at a herd; one a 80 year old man with cancer and another guy, I’m not 100% on this but he may have had the governors tag.

They got out of the way and let the older gent take the sheep and even helped him pack it out. The other guy it was literally a race to beat him to the sheep. They came out on top and took the sheep, but the way it was described it wasn’t a peaceful hunt, it was a “ we gotta get to him before this guy and we have just a matter of minutes to get there before he does”

I’ve never heard of such a thing either, and while it doesn’t seem right to me to hire an army of people I think it would be great to have a few close friends tag along for the experience.

There are a lot of things that happen out in the field hunting anymore, and many are illegal, or unethical, or downright dangerous. Some you can try to eliminate by education, some things you really do need to make illegal. Flying with airplanes or drones, trail cameras (some real time with cell coverage), phones and radios, 1000+ rifle shots over your head, when you have worked two hours to get on a trophy, posses of people. Much of it ruins the reason that many of us go out there. here was just one tree on a waterhole in Arizona where I hunted this year. There were over 20 cameras here, in a 100 yard circle!!

What you all are discussing mainly happens in a particular state I would say. You're talking about the outfitters for the high dollar hunts, i.e auction tags etc..
Look up the Jimmy Johns bull elk taken last fall.
This is not common for most western outfitters.
In particular Utah and Arizona are known for their use of posses for high dollar hunters. They have out spotters that watch the animals throughout the season and trail cams over waterholes etc for keeping tabs also.
I say these 2 states because that is where the outfitters operate that do these types of hunts. Happens also others but not as much.

It is not common amongst all western outfitters. Most outfits I know in Wyoming get you 2 hunters per guide, one on one if you want to pay for it. They do not sit on animals all year so they know where they are.
We have some guys out of Utah that I believe book trophy hunts for folks , have some locals that watch one of our local moose herds for it's trophy bulls. They got pretty mad a local guy took a huge bull they had wanted for one for their guys 2 years ago or last year. It was written up in Eastman's.
Radios are used but not for calling in hunters usually. It happens sure but not all the time.
Flying to spot game has been made illegal in many states now. You can't fly and spot then land and shoot, in Wyoming anyway.

Some trophy areas for mule deer areas do get the race to the buck though.

It's common to have a lot of people on tag draws that are very limited. Not just guides but also Tag holders friends and family. It's a social events on many occasions..

Utah is a good example, those limit unit tags may take a lifetime to draw, so when you do it bring everyone to help. I'd come help a friend on a LE TAG.

Biggest problem is all the pressure cameras create at water holes and guzzlers 10 cameras that ten people hitting it every few days. 20 cameras, 20 people etc.

This is unbelievable

Someone posted a video elk hunt on here last fall where some fat rich guy with "Man Boobs" took a long range shot on a monster elk. During the recovery I counted at least 22 people. Man Boobs barely made it to kill site and just sat there while elk was field dressed and packed out.
I'm sure he paid $$$$ for the bull.

Just another example of something I would not spend all that jack on. Doesn't particularly make it wrong, just something I would not do.

I do prefer blondes.

That's nothing. That's just one tree

To be fair, that type of hunt happens with Bighorns...both Desert and Rocky Mountain in suitable terrain. Stone and Dall, you and your guide are probably gonna be the only guys on the mountain.

Western states with public land are more exposed to the liberal insanity that bases game management strictly on emotions.

The state offices are full of liberal idiots. The game departments are full of them, as are the National Forest Circus, BLM, and USFW.

When it's public land, you have that mafia to deal with.

Private property rights are way undersold.

Part of it. Back when I lived in CO, I was helping a buddy get his RBH, similar thing happened, There was 4 of us total, all military. The outfitter had a team of at least 10. It was pre cell so we had to use hand signals, they started using our hand signals for reference. Hind sight I thought is was funny, physically the outfitters couldn't even beat us there any way. In and out in a day. Fun hunt.

I seen it happen on Mule deer also, on eastern front of CO. I'll say that guy that got him could shoot!!

I'm very much in the minority on this site, but I still believe the best option is to sell most of the Federal lands in the west at public auction. This is the "tragedy of the commons" all over again. What belongs to everyone belongs to no one.

Thank God you are in the minority or much of this country, its natural places, and its wildlife would be screwed. It doesn’t take much effort to get away from people on public lands out west if you use your brain and a little boot leather.

And the vast majority of folks who run them aren’t liberal idiots. But that’s starting to change some. Mostly it’s the liberal citizens themselves who override science, not the game departments who by and large do a damn good job in most states.

Really, you know these liberal folks ? Well guess what I know some of them; GWs, biologists, even a WG&F commissioner-actually knew a past one too. Far far from liberal. Spouse worked for WG&F for several years, again not a liberal in the bunch.
You're showing your ignorance here bud.

You don't have a clue what you are talking about.

I have lived, ranched and hunted in a state with lots of public land, and under the control of liberals in the Game Commissions, and in control of NF, BLM & USFW. It's nothing new. Liberals have controlled all that for decades in those places.

Don't lie here.

Some of us know better.

P.S. What's your member number at BHA?

I see what you mean too a point. I'm blessed and get to utilize and hunt usually a min of 2 western states a year. I hunt NF, Wilderness and BLM, but that's 20-30 days of hunting for same price as my deer lease.

I don't agree with a lot of federal management ideologies and how they get manipulated, but.... For the most part, it offers recreational opportunities 2nd to none.

Where else can you take you family on a week long jeep trail camping adventure. In fact there is only on ranch big enough in the US to technically do that. Good luck getting access.

I personally can't phantom not having public land. It's actually on of the things that's make us uniquely American.

With that said if it was auctioned today under current administration how much would end up Foreign owned?

Wyoming may be a small exception. So far.

But, NM, AZ, MT, NV, OR, and many others are definitely exactly what I said.

So, in fact, as I stated, the vast majority of "Western States" ARE under liberal thumbs of all of that. That's a fact.

Wyoming maybe being the exception.

Well, since most of the public land is available for hunting, managed for hunting, and by and large managed pretty well unless the feds or liberal citizens get too involved - I’m grateful to whoever’s running it. The ones I’ve interacted with sure aren’t liberals and that doesn’t jibe with liberals being in charge.

You are the one with no clue. Paint with that broad brush all the time I bet.

Looks like this thread has replaced Reds "At what point" thread. It should easily make it till the big thaw.

I've leased BLM and state school land. Each BLM district is different. Biggest issue as far as hunting is Liberal appointments at the state game agency heads. State controls wild life decisions out side of ESA protections.

Now I'm not disagreeing that liberal biased hasn't influenced federal management because it has in a bad bad way, but not to the point those roads and trail heads are closed. You sell it, they will be 100% closed. Even if they do a lease back access will be limited.

F’ BHA!!! They Should be censored word on THF. I feel like an idiot for supporting them when they first came out.

Sir, I do have a clue. I lived it. Experienced it.

As I have noted, Wyoming is the rare exception in the vast lands of the west. As said, I already acknowledged that to you.

You want egg in your beer as well?

As far as the other states, I stand firmly behind the facts and my statements.

No egg here and guess what I am no "sir " either. I drink beer my good friend makes, bet you drink fizzy corn water, i.e. Coors or rice beer. Find an egg every once in a while do you? Not me.
Wyoming is no "small" exception, half our state is public lands.

You're still painting with a wide brush.

Grew up for the last 40 years with all my friends being in the BLM, FS or State Lands Dept, and CAL Fire. Everything from local range cons and biologists, wardens, and all the way ups to district managers, State Range Manager, and even Washington DC policy makers. No liberals in any of them, and listening to stories most of the problems are liberal groups, eco-lawyers, litigation and suits hampering all the correct policies and practices. Now if you want to point your finger at the National Park Service, and more and more) USFWS, there I would start to agree with you!!

Litigation is the crazy part when it gets broken out and highlighted. Trump should of disbanded NP service and gave it to NFS.. I’m sure BHA and Patagonia would of told everyone he was stealing our public land again.

Tell us about what percentage Wyoming is in the theme of "western hunting"... (Taken from the thread title.)

Tell us all about how conservatively the entire western states are governed and regulated.

I wasn't aware that only Wyoming made up the entirety of "western states".

Knock that chip off your own shoulder. I'm not the enemy. But maybe it's time you see who and what is before your precious state follows the others down that liberal rabbit hole...?

Thanks Blank, all of the folks I know involved in game management are not liberals by any means, that incudes state and federal folks. But hey, I'm sure BbarV knows many more of those local folks than us.
Actually looks to me that outfitters have more say in some states than the elected politicians, guess they are all liberals too.

The chip on my shoulder is from folks bashing western game management from Texas, or any state back east. Don't like it then hunt elsewhere.

This whole thread was about all the madness around trail cams in some states, you brought liberal politics into it BbarV.
Guess what, many hunters in those states want trail cam restrictions. Take a look around some other forums and read the residents comments.
It's not liberal politics pushing trail cam bans, it's fed up hunters.

The only time I have even been slightly perturbed with a state game official out west was this one warden in Wyoming who met us and checked my moose tag every day for 6 days. Every. Day.

Never could figure that one out.

Differences that most people in TX don't see is those cameras are used out west to identify/find not so much to pattern
Here people use then to identify but most are trying to pattern.

I think out west public land mandate should be no cameras after Aug or state bans them on public land water sources and sets up a subscription based portal that funds camera and excess goes to directly into water enhancements.

IMO

Wyoming is blessed with not only their federal management but state's game agencies. I feel TX is in same boat.
It's always a different conversation with USFG LE interactions compared to state here IMO.

maybe you talked down to him and he did not like you

Are you familiar with the phrase “self own”?

You told him you where a lawyer didn’t you ...lol kidding

I’m sure it was because it was a super tag. Or he just wanted to see a big moose.

GWs have always been overly nice to me.

Maybe so. It was a draw tag, but I never did figure it out.

Lol, I forget WY has an actual superstag drawing, ya just meant essentially once in life time tag for a NR.

May not even been you and he was just watching outfitter, or generally wanted to see a big moose. I'd asked for his number and told him I’d text him once I'm on the ground. ..

I got stopped by same warden coming out of baffin three times in one day, I was stopping and fishing different spots on way back to boat ramp, He finally said “ sorry guys I'm a dumb A, ya’ll go on.”

I’m always cool as long as they are nice, minute it goes from license and safety(boating) to dumb investigation I get irritated. Like handing them your license and they then ask you how many deer you killed this year.

I was fine with it. It was all just kinda weird. He was pretty much silent the whole time. No chitchat like you usually get.

he was probably hinting that he wanted you to ask him on a date to the malt shop in pagosa.....

So I guess you essentially send a dick pick to 10-50 people every time you take a wiz hunting out west? Wow I would never have imagined stuff like that.

Lol maybe so but I’m not tuned into them vibes.

Wrote this article for a buddies website on building an application strategy.

https://www.korbinsarchery.com/ccms...e-west-building-an-application-strategy/

Well, I live and hunt in California. For you that don't think liberals don't control the hunting just try us. The fish and game commission is appointed by the Governor so you can see where this is going. Rancher friend of mine got arrested for killing a Mountain Lion that was after his cattle. Didn't get the proper permit before he did it. Guess he should have waited for it to kill some more of his stock. Trying to get wolves back. Can't hunt bears with dogs anymore and I could go on and on but you get the idea. Of course, I know what you are thinking, we get what we got, but I'm in Northern California where the folks are real. I even put in for myself and my Daughter for the Texas special hunts each year as I think they are at least honest not like ours.

No doubt everyone knows CA is controlled by the liberals. I’m actually surprised there’s hunting of any kind allowed there. And I’m not being facetious.

In AZ they claim it's not uncommon to see 30-50 trail cameras on ONE water hole....part of the reason AZ is trying to outlaw them, or atleast put a season on using them.

Good article post it in public section and ask Sniper or Trex to sticky it

Good information

I watch a show on one of the hunting channels that showed pictures of a water trough/hole with over 100 trail cams on that one location. What they were worried about was that the activity from putting out the cams and then daily checking the cams was keeping animals off of the water sources in the summer and early fall months.

Its a crazy world....Easterner's think thats bs and Westerner's think southern rednecks hunting over a feeder is bs. Anti deer baiters think nothing of catching a limit of crappie with minnows

This is some helpful info

I can’t imagine wanting anything to do with any spot that has that much human activity. If I saw 2 cameras, I’d look elsewhere.

The main issue addressed in that the show was the limited water sources in those areas. It was very sparse and everyone new the animals were concentrated on those few water sources. Hence 100's of cams on each source since there were very few of them. From what I remembered from that show was that every water source was covered up in cameras....that was the concern.

Whats to keep the spotter from calling the outfitter wo will pay the most for given animal?

I thought radios were already illegal. If they are not, I'm surprised they are not more widely used. I've never seen that in the West, but I have with dog hunting in the South. The most guides I've seen with one hunter was eight. They were all pro guides, but they weren't being paid. I think they were friends and relatives.

That's why you will see 15 people glassing for one Hunter in high end one in a lifetime units or Gov tags

Every state is different

I believe Boone and Crockett also will not accept a trophy if electronic communication is used in the taking of the animal.

Electronic communication while hunting is prohibited in some states and commonplace in others, like Bobo said.

Not that I would go in planning on using a team of spotters and walkie talkies but Boone & Crockett entry wouldn’t weigh much on my decision.

Maybe if it was a world record I would enter it but unless it was a significant specimen getting into the book doesent mean much to me or most other hunters I know.

I don’t doubt it but I bet a team ain’t cheap

A semi wealthy friend of mine goes out west a few years ago (I don’t recall the state) to hunt a mountain lion

He hunts unsuccessfully for 5 or so days and comes home on a private plane

He told about the time wheels touched down in dfw he got a call saying his guide was on one

He said wheels up and flew straight back and got the cat that evening.

And that was then first time I had heard of such

$$$$

I think that’s fairly normal when hunting lions.

That's normal, most the guides prefer to run tracks on snow verse dry ground, so when a fresh snow hits it's on.

I cut a fresh track on snow this year while hunting mule deer in Jan. Called my buddy, they came and ran the ridge and got the lion. They where there on an older track two days before, and never hit fresh scent.