Long Range Shooting advise needed

I am preparing for an elk hunt next year and one of things I need to do is I need to be comfortable with shots 300 - 400 yards. Before I can get one my local ranges Long Range course I have to shoot a 5 shot group at 200 yards and the entire group has to be within 1 MOA.

Here is my question: When I do this, how fast should I try and do this? Would you let the barrel completely cool?

What rifle is it and what barrel contour? Under general range shooting conditions, 2" group at 200 yards could be a tall order for 5 shots with a light weight hunting rifle.

But being comfortable at the range and being able to shoot in the field out to 300-400 yards is totally different. I've worked with several shooters for longer range shots, and it's never off the bench. It's in the seated or kneeling position or leaning off a tree and being able to execute THAT shot to simulate field shooting positions.

wow. Thats a tall order. First of all understand that 1 MOA at 200 yards is 2" and not 1". A lot of every day folks that dont get into shooting that much(like me) are used to associating everything about MOA at 100 yards cause its so common to shoot at that distance. 5 shots inside 2" at 200 yards is difficult for most guns to do without even factoring in the shooter. I guess you are saying its some type of policy at that range...? Im curious if others know if this is a common policy.
To answer your question, I would definitely take a lot of time between shots if they allow it. You dont want the barrel to heat up. You arent trying to simulate field situations, you are just trying to get approval for moving up.

Hmmmmm......5 shot group, 200 yards, 1 MOA????? Good luck with most really accurate lightweight hunting rifles.
Adios,
Gary

Take boxes of ammo and have several targets at the ready

I claim that my deer rifle shoots 1" groups at 100 but admittedly thats on a good day(with ME as shooter). At 200 im pretty sure I would need lots of ammo to get 5 in 2" at 200.

If you can meet the criteria d\to take the course, you don't need it. Maybe just a few afternoons on their range. This isn't Fossil Pointe, in Wise County is it?

onlysmith&wes - Yes it is Fossil Point.

I'm with Chad. 2" groups at 200 yards is doable with a typical hunting rifle off a shooting bench, but it's a whole lot different in the field, standing, sitting, or kneeling.

I too am getting ready for an elk hunt and have been told to be comfortable with taking a 300 yard shot. That won't be a problem as long as my guide is carrying along a concrete shooting bench for me to use.

Y’all need to call Jason Garvey (FiremanJG) on this forum and setup a day with him. I promise you’ll be a lot closer to ready to go after a day with him than you would be a year on your own. Pay him to shorten the learning curve...he knows his stuff and is a great teacher. I’ve never heard of anyone not being satisfied with a day on the range with Garvey.

Regardless, good luck on your hunts and I hope you have a great time.

X3 - I highly suggest taking his course. You will leave a better shooter! And he’s a darn good guy to spend an afternoon with. 👍

As I recall, it was three shots, and I did it with a Tikka CTR. That was not to take the course, but just to get to use their long range. Are you wanting to take some lessons there, or just use their long range?

you will likely be shooting off shooting sticks/tripod

practice with those

Sight your rifle in for a 200 yd zero and just practice shooting from prone position and with a bipod. I would put a bipod on my rifle if it's an open country hunt, actually I have a bipod that never leaves my rifle while hunting.
You just need to learn how to use the reticle in your scope to hit your targets at 300-400 yds. A steady rest is most important. With enough magnification it is not hard, variable scope helps.
Elk are a big target, learn the drop and you'll be good.
Chances are you will not have the time to dope the wind and mess around before a shot. I think you need to practice getting ready for a shot quickly and settled in for the shot.
Elk aren't going to stand around waiting for you to get settled, well maybe if the stalk is a good one.
Keep your scope dialed down for general hunting and then crank it up for the shot, you will need a big field of view to locate the game before the shot.

Good, practical advice from an obviously experienced hunter. I have bipods on most of my rifles and use them on whitetails, hogs, coyotes, etc. Hitting targets at known ranges is great for making sure your equipment and your skills are solid. After that, go to the long range at Fossil Pointe, and have a spotter tell you which steel target to hit, 3, 4 or 500 yards. Hit what they call in short amount of time. You'll know when you're ready.

What is your level of proficiency now? What kind of groups are you currently shooting at 200?

I would assume you are shooting a fairly light contour barrel for carrying in the mountains. If that is the case let it cool between shots when shooting for groups.

We have a great friend that came up to hunt, he is very accomplished lang range shooter. He carried a heavy, 308 rifle that he shot lights out at very long range. After a day if him not being able to get a good sight picture the spouse told him dial that dang scope down, no need for 20x for deer or elk.
His biggest issue was getting set up and ready for a solid shot. You just need to get settled fast and get your breathing under control.
My 300wsm is zeroed at 200 yds and with the B&C reticle I know exactly where it hits at out to 500 yds.
I prefer a bipod, less to carry in your hands compared to shooting sticks. Your guide may offer to carry something for you but you should be ready to tote your own stuff. A bipod is less to worry about because it is always there and ready to deploy.

You may also find your point of impact is different at altitude, and in the extreme cold. Check your rifle when you get to the outfitters place.
The first shot is the one that counts the most , imo.

If you drive up stop at a local gun range and check your shooting, our public range has a long range area, no qualifying needed to shoot it.
Curious as to the caliber you will be using ?

Thanks everyone for the advise and input. I have a lot to do, glad I have a year to prepare. I don't have a set of bipods. I would like any thoughts on what I should consider.

Sounds like getting with FiremanJG is a great idea.

pm sent

"His biggest issue was getting set up and ready for a solid shot. You just need to get settled fast and get your breathing under control." Climbing the ridges in West Texas a couple of weekends ago, the biggest issue were the danged ear plugs I have started using. Had to wait for the sound of my heart pumping in my ear to stop.

I zero my rifles at 300 and only practice from that range outward. You need to do a LOT of shooting with a good rifle, with a great trigger and a scope designed for long range shooting.
I have a close friend that shoots in the field out to 1000 yards regularly. He says one of his goals to to eliminate as many things that can cause regular misses and a heavy or creepy trigger is at the top of the page. He has customized a couple of rifles for me, not custom build just tweak, and the triggers are perfect crisp at 2 lbs.

He told you the best way to achieve what you asked..

This guy... Not so much...

Specifically, what piece of advice from Wytex or myself is, "Not so much"?

I would test with a bipod ASAP. Many stocks will not tolerate one and will shift poi significantly. I agree with others, a day with JG will go a long way toward reaching your goals.

He's getting ready for a hunt , not a long range shooting match.
Mr Beez is more welcome to voice an opinion.
Like I said I've seen accomplished long range shooters on a Wyoming hunt, not near like shooting in a match.

Many instances on game you do mot have time to check your dope sheet or dial a scope before getting set for a shot, I've seen it many times. This is not sitting in a blind, it's elk hunting.
And a long range rifle that weighs 8-10 lbs will not be very comfortable in the mountains. Same with carrying shooting sticks or a tripod. A spotting scope takes the place of a 4-25x rifle scope, maybe just good binos, guide will have the spotter if needed.

FiremanJg I bet can help with techniques to control breathing and getting steady for that 1st shot, not a 5 shot group. I bet he would even improve your overall shooting at any distance.

An elk can take a few steps before that 1,000 yd shot gets there, your guide will get you closer for a good shot. All the guides I know, and it's quite a few that guide elk hunters, are not real keen to take out guys that insist on taking a long range shot. They want you close enough to make a good shot and a quick clean kill without a tracking job.
Are you going to grizz country ? If so, I know guides will not want you throwing lead out at extreme distances and chance wounding game. If you want a guide like that I do know an outfitter that likes long range shooters but they will test you 1st before going out.

Lots of great long range shooters on here, heed their advice. I would also listen to those that years of experience elk hunting. Maybe Mr Beez has that experience, I don't know.
I would just like to see you have a great hunt and harvest an elk, not come home dejected from a bad shot and no elk. Many long range techniques will greatly help your shooting ability on game but making 1,000 yd shots is not necessary, fun but not necessary.

My program is square away the system first. Get the rifle/scope/ammo zeroed at 100 yards, all the while saying reminders on shooting technique, trigger control, follow-through, breathing. If the scope has an elevation turret we will dial elevation and hold wind. I'll tell you what I'm seeing creating the wind call I'm giving, trees, grass, mirage, here's what I using to give you the wind hold I'm giving. We will work out to 800 yards. Then we will put the scope back on 0 and make pure holds out to 800 yards, no dialing. Because in hunting there is not always time to dial, you have to hold elevation and wind when time is of the essence. Because of that I make sure everyone knows how.

Next thing is to get off prone and get into field positions. Seated, high kneeling, low kneeling, and even standing. And we will do that at 300 and 400 yards. I'm trying to educate the science, the body mechanics and boost confidence. My goal for everyone is to make 400 yards and less not such a big deal. I meet that goal every time. Pretty much everyone gives me the same answer by about 5 o'clock that afternoon. I'll ask "how does 400 yards feel to you now?" And the answer is "like a chip shot".

I've kiled 3 elk, unknown number of whitetail, unknown number of hogs and coyotes. I've probably dialed half those shots, and pure held half those shots. May of this year I hit a coyote at 520 yards, and I held it, no time to dial. You can't take a bench with you on a hunt, so I teach how to use whatcha got to get that rifle to he still. On the rare occasion I get to hunt with a buddy, and he can run the laser for me, life is much easier. I can hit it, I just have to know how far it is. A guide will do that for you as well.

Lots of THF members have booked hunts with Mulie Mike. He told them how far they need to be prepared to shoot. So lots of them contacted me before their hunt. Things went way better for them.

Sounds exactly like what he needs. Wish I was closer for a session.

Agreed. And just for giggles I ran the numbers on my pet 7 Rem Mag load. I'm shooting a 180 ELD out of a 26 inch 8 twist barrel at 2950 fps and at 8000 feet of elevation, 50 degree temp and 50% humidity there is 1.28 seconds of bullet flight time from muzzle to 1000 yards. Probably less than most people would guess, but still enough time for an animal to move a bit.

Not long ago I spent a day with him and Judd is right. FiremanJG will absolutely get you squared away.

I had an equipment issue and had to finish much of the class with his rifle. Now that my issue is corrected I need to get back out there.

Enough time to go from a great lung/heart shot to a gut shot. 509 yards on a pronghorn is my longest shot on game that was successful.

The next day had a very nice mature 5X5 elk at what the guide said was 490 yards so I shot with the same basic hold on the elk, only problem that was off by 80 yards on the short side and the bull was actually 570 yards. THe last I saw of that bull he was at least 3/4 mile away running across a pasture and into woods on another ranch. There was a good bit of dark brown short hair on the snow and at the impact the bull turned to face me holing his left side leg out and shaking it, the frontal shot hit the snow about 6 inches to the right of his shoulder about mid body height after holding that shot higher, not enough wind call on the second shot. It was single digit temps with a full crosswind of 15 to 20mph. Qbout double the wind as on the pronghorn the day before and 60 yards further when standing where the bull was when I took the shot shooting the rangefinder back to the rouck outcropping I was setup prone with the bipod on. That was a about 2003 and scopes were not what they are today and the 7mm STW 160gr Partition load was leaving the barrel at just under 3200fps. I had over 300 rounds through that rifle with that scope in varying conditions before that trip shooting most of them from 300 to 600 yards prepping for the hunt. That shot still haunts me but the bull survived and was killed by a hunter 2 weeks later in the same general area and there was a scab across his brisket and through some muscle on the offside leg fro the slightly quartering shot.

I would not attempt that shot these days as I do not shoot nearly as often as I did back then but a calm animal that is not moving much is what I look for and even then one step while the bullet is in the air at distance can mean the difference in a good hit or a bad deal all around.

I have turned down shots at some great animals and do not regret any shots I have not taken one bit even on the only for sure B&C buck I have ever had in my sights. Respect the game that you are hunting, learn your limitations and stay within them, Through practice and good instruction you can certainly increase your range but weight in all you have learned and the conditions you are in before taking those long range shots is my motto.

Jason and Chad are good marksmen and Jason has developed his class for hunters and is worth it for those that want to increase their abilities as many on here and others can attest to.

Thank you Kevin.

My two long shots on cow elk were a minute apart. The situation was perfect to make them. My rig had been verified zero the day before, and walked out on steel to 1500 yards. I was prone on a bipod, Bill was a foot beside me calling range, very little wind, and two cows that had stopped and both were broadside. The back cow I vitals shot at 465 yards. She walked 30 yards and piled up. The second cow ran, but stopped looking around. Bill called it 510 yards. Wind went to zero. Her whole body was covered by a juniper. When she faced me, I hit her in the neck right below her chin, making a brainstem shot. Top of the line rifle, and one I have shot for years. Top of the line rifle scope, base, rings, and ammo I specifically tuned for that rifle. Ammo that has the capacity of effectively killing at +500 yards. Remove any one of those factors and may have passed on the shots, but I knew everything had lined up and I had been preparing for a situation like that for years. Lots and lots of practice with that rig, I knew what we could do.

The person that shoots less than 20 rounds per year, I don't encourage something like that. There are some guys that hunt every fall, and some of them are on my range shooting almost monthly before fall. They're probably fairly comfortable at making shots like that. Good range finders are absolutely paramount in making distant shots. Hitting foliage short of or beyond the animal can make things go south, just like Kevin's story.

Don't practice until you get it right, practice until you cannot get it wrong.

If 1.28 seconds is too long of a flight time, archery should be outlawed