Who owns Texas wildlife?

I thought i remembered correctly that in Texas the wildlife is owned by the public, but governed by tpwd.
I can't find any info on that. Just kind of a curious question, and if someone could provide a link, that'd be great.

Citizens...managed by the state

The state tells you what you can and can't do with wildlife so they must own them or at least think they do.

It’s held in trust by the state for the people

I always ruffle some feathers when this subject comes up.

In all states the native wildlife belongs to all the citizens of the state until such time as they are legally taken by a hunter. And that is all native wildlife from butterflies to Bighorn Sheep. Exotics are normally classified as livestock unless they are totally free ranging on public land like the Oryx in NM and under those circumstances they also technically belong to the public. This was actually a ruling from the Supreme Court when USO took AZ to court about they way they allocate licenses to non-residents. USO tried to claim that since outfitting was a business then wildlife should fall under the commerce clause. The court ruled in favor of AZ stating that wildlife is held in public trust and public ownership by the citizens of the state and cannot be bought and sold as commerce. A hunting license does not guarantee you the animal, merely the opportunity to try for the animal.

Game depts are tasked with overseeing and managing the wildlife on behalf of the public but game depts don't own them any more than the state patrol does.

In a very quick search, I couldn't find a link that directly states the fact that Bobo said above, but this editorial speaks to the fact https://tpwmagazine.com/archive/2007/jan/atissue/

As others have said, this is a touchy subject because it directly challenges some long held practices that seem untouchable despite their likely contradiction with what should be. But despite those things, hopefully reminding ourselves of the fact that we own the wildlife can drive future decision making and management that means we get to own more!

this is an interesting topic that brought a curiosity thought to my mind regarding HF ranches that contain native animals ... who owns those animals? Would they be part of the same trust? What about imported genetics from other states but the species is native to TX? ... not trying to stir the pot, as I have no background or knowledge regarding HF places.

Regardless of the fence I think ownership is the same. Even if you remove all native deer and bring in deer from somewhere else don’t you still have to abide by seasons and bag limits?

My understanding has always been, HF or LF, the State (the people, but managed by gov't) owns all native species. That is why there are such tight restrictions on transport of native game, and the hunting seasons/rules still apply, even when hunting under HF. As stated above, non-native species are regarded as livestock and the seasons/rules don't equally apply.

That is why it is incorrect for someone to reference wildlife as if they own them, i.e., my neighbor shot MY deer. Nope...

Yes, though they can get on a management program with the state, MLDP, and have greatly extended seasons and bag limits are based on population numbers and such.

In some other states a property that is high fenced then has to, at their cost, trap and transfer out all of the native deer, which belong to the people, before they can bring in their own deer, at their own cost. Different than putting up a high fence and then de facto claiming and keeping all of the public's deer.

Not, not, not expressing a stance on the issue, just making a point. In fact, one season I was guiding on a large ranch that the neighbor had high fenced and brought in some amazing genetics. He had an escapement problem on the fence line of my section of our ranch. I was a very successful guide that season! I was also low man on the totem pole and what do you know, the head guide had that section of the ranch the next year, but the escapement had been fixed and my hunters had already gotten them! I still neighbor that property, and we drive the fence drooling over the bucks.

“The American colonies worked under English law until independence, a transition which voided the king’s role as trustee of communal property. The colonies thus lacked a specified trustee for governing natural resources until an 1842 Supreme Court ruling (Martin v. Waddell) that gave individual states public trustee status. And though Canada modeled much of its legal system after Great Britain, Canada, to”

https://nctc.fws.gov/courses/csp/cs...es/Overview_of_Public_Trust_Doctrine.pdf

And layman’s explanation

https://blogs.cornell.edu/publictrustpractice/what_is_pt/

Correct but property rights truly governor legal public ability. Statues in Texas are property first, wildlife second out side of federal ESA rulings

I feel a HF LF thread coming on. I kind of hate it cause they always end up with seemingly rational men acting like kids on a playground. Kind of like the virus response debate--both sides showing their lack of restraint. A good, healthy, civil discussion always has potential to be educational and have value but rarely happens on here when it comes to polarizing issues.

No debate, legal is legal, if one doesn’t like it, then can be just like the hunters in other states that didn’t like hounds chasing bears and lions or baiting and get it banned. Everyone is with in their legal right to petition legislation to END hunting.

It’s pretty simple, no one will every change their mind on a forum. All they essentially do is just degrade fellow hunters for not standing at the same pulpit as them. So they should just go straight to legislative representatives and work their magic. Just like the anti’s do. Management by ballots is always better then science anyway..... just ask California and Colorado hunters

Sec 1.011 of the Texas wildlife code

https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/SDocs/PARKSANDWILDLIFECODE.pdf

I have done that alot in the past on this forum and others, in an emotionally charged conversation on the interwebs. And I think it comes down to three things-

1. You can't hear the inflection or tone of voice on the internet
2. You can't read facial expression on the internet
3. We sometimes forget that is a real human being you are talking to.

It's not the internet or the handle... there is a person over there and we will say things you might never tell a person in real life because you know it's wrong to treat people that way. And might also act in such a way you would never act in public or otherwise embarrass yourself.

Not cause you're hiding it is just the way it goes. It's like road rage. If it were two people walking down the street who had to see each others faces it might never boil over.

If you recognize this fact it changes the way you interact with people online.

I dread the day my kids learn to search for and find me on the internet.

It I understand correctly, 'flora and fauna" are all held by the state.

The single most important factor YOU CANNOT CHANGE A MIND THAT CANNOT BE CHANGED. You just can’t.

I don't know. When I moved back to Texas, I came back to this forum looking for a cheap lease to tag out on deer. Over the last year I have learmed alot about deer and currently sit clear on the other side of the fence.

It hard to double down on your opinions after you have been presented with enough logic, and clearly were wrong.

Some of our resident Alabama poachers use this excuse to trespass and shoot game. Since the wildlife is owned (managed) by the State for the residents, they believe they have the right to come on to anyone's property. Great, then why do they insist on sneaking onto the property instead coming through the front gate? There is a reason Alabama ranks 52nd in education. I witness it almost every day.

So in other words, if you shoot a deer near a fence and it runs onto your neighbor's property, you're totally at his/her mercy to give it to you, correct? Otherwise, they have the legal right to keep it for themselves since they own it as much as you do even though you may have shot it.

What about non-native game that gets out and onto your property? Is it treated the same way as livestock?

He has no obligation to return it to you. It’s fertilizer if he chooses. I don’t think the Game warden can technically retrieve it unless it’s due to an active investigation.

No, non -native game fall solely to land owner discretion, unless it meets tag/identification/ownership requirements set forth under statue.

There is a big difference between non-game animals and livestock. Live stock will get you thrown in prison. non-game/exotics are citations and civil, assuming you haven’t committed class A Trespass in the process

Thats the sad thing... Here its always been,
#'er1) tis hunters responcability to do every thing can ta retrieve wounded animal...
& 99&1/2 of the land owners understand this & work with hunters...
Last deer taken, it went on othrr property, asked permission, no problem.

Last lease had was one signed paper, sons stand was at end of lease, away from fence, down in valley, were we seen lots of sign, trails, rubs scraps... We put corn feeders, & walked the garden till down & tilled area, ol scool, very little change ta area...
Walking down fence line ta his area. Noticed hunters on ajoining land had corn on fence row & set-up along fence...
tis thar side... at least felt bullets not gonna go across fence. Both places only 200 - 300 acres...
One of the times walked fence, seen & chatted with hunter..
Told him were our stands were & camp area, & if they did get deer & it jumped fence..
Ta swing by camp, (that way didnt mess up our hunts) & we would help retrieve deer...
When first got lease, walked fence ta know area, found a wooden feeder just inside our fence with corn, & noticed a stand in tree, on other side, bow range...
Did take corn, twas on our side, & left note, thanking for corn...
Had seen owner of land later, never brought up incedent, (who ever put corn thar quit) so no need. Had friendly chat...

Seen lots of HFvsLF debates, with the fence line hunters..
Just my les chance of stray bullets. most time fence tis ta back of stand, much safer, they know thar lease better than ajoining lease...

Big Buck$ changed hunting... tis first time seen term my deer, pay ta play & few other terms...
This post will offend sum... complain about me grammer...

I can relate to this but it's a two way deal with good and bad on both sides. At the end of the day, I think that our majority private land with the management minded hunters is better for conservation of our natural resources, than the alternative. I think it has been proven in this state.

I read alot of stuff lately about an artificially boosted number and quality of deer on a given piece of land. Also seen stuff about how this increaes likelyhood of spreading disease, may have as much to do with the spread of cwd and etc than importing deer.

But it's not just the deer that benefit from it. All the other animals are reaping benefits from this model, including the reptiles.

Even if a landowner and all the hunters on a lease smoke every rattler they see, it would not compare to he devastation that would come from public access to the land.

But it comes at the sacrifice of opportunity for new hunters, which isn't very good for the sport.

As long as TPWD continues trying to boost the quality and access for public land, I think we will be better off with the private landowners running their property the way they are now vs in the past and I bet most agree with that.

Forgive me for not remembering your handle- who was it that always speaks of accountBility for the land managers of our public lands? I am starting to understand that now. 1.5million acres... lets work on improving it.

Bryan C.
depends on persons defanition of quality deer...
i keep an open mind on this forum, all D (grammer) yokes...
Take "Smith County" ... 83 & no telling years before 1 deer county...
Tried get 1 doe tag. Roughly 200acrer. Told NO, not enough deer...
New the land way better, fuxed fences, bailed parrie hay, & lived out doors whin off...
Dude saying no, might had degree, speek good engalish, but didnt impess me..
Stop think about it... tis sure You smarter dan me. .

Buck Only !!!

So heard bout lease with 24-7-365hog hunts...
Have gun, will travel, for under a buck a day...
Still hunted S of the house, had food plot, legal thar, corn feeders...
No hog problems...
Seen the games played on leases...
Personaly know people who argued about the "bigger racks" yet ta have some one give a good recipy for antler stew. Thar definition of quality deer tis differant...
Just cause i donts typs fancy of have a degree, donts meen i cant seperat d from d rest of d crap.
Most have me on thar ignorance list, thats cool..

3 types of hunters. .
People work hard for their money... i wake up ta alien body parts every morning...
Adapt, over come, & improvies...
Hunter1) told hunter2) he pays for the lease & legally takes deer..
Tis like person telling another (put back the hambergur & take the steak). Then hunter1 buts the 10/90 hambergur...
The ground shrinkage game... seen it done.
Later, hunter1) gets on lease for bigger racks. 5yr lease they do all the work, fancy cabin for luctury, time, work, & effort.. Only for land owner ta turn around, show what the hunters done ta other hunters at end of 5 years..
Hunters meet ta renew lease & get sold out by land owner...
It happens alot in dont fool yourself...

Tis why say "twas aBlessing whin a WMA opened up just down the road.."
Was on it first year, for the hogs, they had (few) started making thar way up creeks ta me food plots & feeders. So hunted the hogs, whin showed up thar, & WMA archery/hog & the hog any legal meens...
Seen bug improvement of quality deer, over the years, Archery Only Deer hunts...
so took me bow in had & took a stand... Even whin Smith county went ta 4 deer county...

Not enough deer , from 1 doe tag ta 4 deer ?
Whats your defanition of quality deer ?


Lots of polatics...

Whin ya follow a manure spreader, can be tough seperating the from the rest of the crap
pappy

Grammer humor too many follow d rule guns dont kill, reason they using posion ta control hogs...

All the fancy first AK's then the AR's made differance on hogs at WMA,
The yearly flooding, push's hogs ta higher ground ta the 24-7-365 land owners.. & after water goes down hogs return due ta limited opertunities...
Still got cheap posts...
Best Wish's...

https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/docs/AG/htm/AG.142.htm

I don’t think big bucks have changed hunting, I think the understanding of eco-systems have changed hunting. Big bucks are just a product of a healthy system. The original goal of B&C score was to highlight areas that have above average nutrition, age structure and genetics. The genetics is an expression of of the first two.

When you start managing landscapes similar to how Mother Nature did it you start seeing the capabilities of genetics actually expressed and you start seeing the other critters doing well also(we just manage out, Mother Nature’s big swings and keep everything more even, via our hands on managed property. IMO atleast

The biggest change to hunting was the change from using it to support your family in the past, for sport now.
Barring this pandemic, you don't need to hunt for food anymore.

Under current laws, It’s easier to shot a 4w yearling or a sheep or goat,

I don’t even think it’s hunting for ones food. It’s Market gunning vs “laws and regulations”.

Grand scheme of things substance hunting technically died about pre 1900 for vast majority of America

I agree. Early 1900's most of our game had been wiped out, via market hunting. Compare the US population then with now. If everybody tried hunting for survival we would starve.

Maybe some of the states on the far borth border, and Canada, would make it. Given they were smart enough and made enouh preparations to survive the winter without the comforts of modern covilization.

Fishing maybe? Not really. Without our aggressive restocking programs we would wipe the reservoirs out just as fast.

I would argue, that you are one of the brightest dudes posting in the forum. Nobody else has the combination of wit, tact, and entertainment that you present in your posts. I doubt if I am the only one that has noticed, but everyone plays along with the "colt 45 just a old school e.tx hillbilly". But there is alot of valuable stuff mixed in there with the hick-latin.

I'm sure you wouldn't have it any other way.

Thanks for all the great posts

me tinks yould loose that argument..

How can we, the residents of the State own something yet have no say over it?

Honest truth- I think it's just the best way to create a balance in the haves vs the have nots.

Vast majority of Texas' wildlife is on private property, vast majority of Texas' citizens are not land owners.

The only thing that keeps out wildlife from being bought, sold, and shipped away is that it belongs to the people. Landowners still technically can sell their deer, they just have to be shot there on the property. Trophy hunts all over Texas, you can pay by the inch. Not just Texas either.

Trust me I have thought alot about it over the past year. As a have not (i am not a landowners) I prefer the way it is here for one reason- cost prohibitive hunts and strict rules on leases has benefitted Texas wildlife greatly.

If you don't like it, suck it up a few years and hunt public. Save your money and get a lease one year or buy a hunt one year.

Whole lot of people will never be able to hunt at all. Alot of public land in the western states but the best fishing is hard to access with weird rules like can't put your feet on the bottom, i kid you not, in some regions.

It is a work in progress with the public access and there are problems but in time we will get there.

And public lands with management minded landowners nearby will also be awesome as long as the access is limited enough to maintain quality deer and habitat, and keep local landowners happy.

For landowners that is tough, when you are trying to hang on to a large property I am sure, that you can manage and develop tropht deer and you can't buy and sell. You can't sell your whitetails or mule deer... but as I understand it the elk are not listed in the same category in Texas and can be bought and sold pretty much. Plus exotics like red stag... that is my dream hunt, a free ranging trophy red stag hunt. Probably will never happen.

A lot of people will never even have a trophy buck in their sights. I might not and that is ok.

As a have not- at the end of the day, what is more important to you- access to, or the existence of quality habitat and deer and other wildlife?

So are we just paying a trespass fee if whitetail deer belong to the people?

I like the depth of thought!!! I personally think it comes down to simply a way to prevent extirpation of native flora as a sustainable resource in the late 1800’s/early 1900’s, due to market driven over harvest

I think the resource has changed in perception since then, it was first a thing of value(market gunning), next it was then protected and became a cost factor for the now dominant ag production that replaced the need for market gunning, then evolved back into a thing of value based off an alternative to domestic live stock practices and traditional use practices. If my revenue off a native wildlife exceeds my ag losses caused by it, I look more favorable on it as part of a sustainable landscape, that’s where we are now.

my lease has low fence, high fence, and high fence with enormous holes in it that the neighbors hunt in high racks... forgetting that kind of [censored] is why the high fence went up in the first place, and that they'll also find all those holes have been sealed up over the summer time.

as for a philosophical debate on who "owns" deer... just keep buying your license, and getting legal access to land to hunt. That isn't changing

I wouldn't call it a trespass fee. That kind of assumes the landowner doesn't care about the wildlife and is only worried about trespassers. More often than not the landowner, or of not than the other hunters on the lease, invest a lot of time and money year round into the land. Imagine just running out to a lease every saturday and fill one feeder all year long- that gets old. Truthfully most people do alot more than that for the lease and the deer in the best places. Spend thousands on protein and etc. So you are getting a lot more than that, and hopefully you would meet the landowner and other hunters in the middle taking care of the land.

Yup

Until someone hits one and does many thousands of dollars damage to their car. lmao

I own the wildlife in my freezer. The rest, we can share, just buy a license first.

Interesting stuff. I’m an absentee land owner of a small 133 acre place in Montague County, 70 miles from my front door in Hurst. I’ve often thought of this stuff.

Due to wildlife depredation, I couldn’t have a garden or orchard. And yet, I can’t do much about it to protect my “assets”. If a deer eats my garden, it is protected. If I plant, for farming purposes, wheat I can’t do anything about wildlife predation from deer, birds, or small animals.

If I want to raise chickens, it is illegal for me to shoot a hawk that is getting them. But, it’s ok for me to shoot a coyote.

Just look at the myth, hog problem...
Tis all about the Big Buck$

Actually, you can get permits for wildlife destroying crops.

To a point, but it’s only to lower future damage, it also doent pay damages. In Texas atleast

That’s a ranch specific ideology. Proven fact general hunting is very limited in actual controlling. Now you combine trapping, Aerial and night hunting, it’s become effective at actually managing.

So their tis No hog problems , a myth...
OSBWMA good example... been on it since it opened...
At first had seen litteraly 100's way back in thar...
The surrounding 24-7-365 hog hunts on private land, the land between the boundrys waters twas ideal for hogs...
Low-income hunters, looking for hog hunts, put presure on them, if ya got Off the old atv trails.
AK's became popular. i used me AR , that cut down big time, word of mouth, also it floods...
80's their was alot of trapping, & moving hogs for hog hunts, like with deer leases, Big Buck$...
All my posts are generally about hog hunting on low price public land...
If you wanna pay $200.00 - $300.00 ta shovel some pig crap from these hog barns up here, tis sure they'll take your money, even fry up some fresh bacon...
Stay Safe out thar...
Stay after em...

Not what I said, I didn’t say it was a myth, i said each individual ranch is different and manages them differently. You just countered my statement with a public WMA property, that’s under jurisdiction of the state, there for covered up and ham strung by bureaucracy, therefore completely irrelevant to your point . Again I see no problem with someone charging to hunt hogs since it’s reimbursement for their damages. “Hunting” Has proven to be highly limited in its ability to actually control populations. So you have liability combined with ineffectiveness as a way to chastise landowners into free hog hunting.. lol

It’s just a typical liberal wanting something for nothing.

Hunters are just fortunate tags are given out per licensee and not per acreage.

If it has value, why would you give it away for free? Deer can do alot of crop damage and compete with livestock for grazing... but they also have value.

If you can make money off of deer, or pigs, or even groundhogs, you might as well. There are paid iguana hunts... yep iguana, in Puerto Rico and I bet in Florida too. Everything has value to someone.

Nothing worth having is free. If it doesnt cost money then it cost energy and precious time.

Always blew me away that people would pay to fly in and hunt at the King Ranch for Javelina.

I don't know, I am sure there are people that would pay just to spend some time on King Ranch, at least on parts of it. The javelina are just a bonus.

I flew in for a Quail hunt at the KING about 12 years ago, what's does the mode of transportation have to do with it?

Every other state it’s a draw. Toss in the amenities and historical context of the ranch, why not.

I wouldn’t and most wouldnt that have already hunted Stx but more power to those that would.

I have seen so many Peccaries, it's just not fathomed here. Nothing derogatory about flying, just an additional cost. My understanding is they are considered a big game animal and a must for anyone choosing to try and take each of the big game species on the North American continent.

Btw, lovey the King Ranch. An absolutely unbelievable outdoor & wildlife resource. A truly amazing place.

I don't think Javelina are considered a big game animal anywhere but Texas. BC does not have a category. Texas did add them to their TBGA program as a big game animal. I think a prominent Stx biologist pushed it through for some reason. I guess doing that made them a more valuable hunting commodity. After that they added it as one of the big game animals you had to take to complete a Texas Slam. It disgusts me they would try to elevate a stinking Javi to the status of WT MD and Pronghorn. Why not just add a coyote or hog or jackrabbit. Nothing wrong with anyone wanting to hunt them that's wants some trigger time but don't imply its some great accomplishment.
There is certainly a mystic or allure about hunting in Texas as lots of folks likely think its cool to fly into Texas to hunt anything at all. Certainly add in the King and that's just on steroids.

AZ and NM its a draw tag.

Not disagreeing with the sediment but they are fun to archery hunt in March. Drive, corn, drive stalk, refreshment, corn drive, stalk repeat.

They are annoying little Hoover corn vacuums

Shooting a whitetail in Texas is no bigger accomplishment.

Easier in most cases.

But then how would me & my buddies shoot 15 deer off our 10ac lease?

I am moving to Missouri this summer. There is something to that, landowner tags are free but they are based on acreage. Hunters that don't have land, must buy tags.

I wonder how or if that might benefit deer management in Texas? It might. But I have no idea how Texas whitetails compare to Missouri whitetails to be honest.

But what do ya'll think about that?

Digging a little deeper, it's not like the tags are expensive and they are bought as a permit not a tag. But that is not the point.

If it benefits the deer herd, then long term it benefits the hunter. Perhaps we ought to have a system based on acreage and etc.

If you're not a landowner you can purchase a deer tags, landowners get more or less tags based on their property and the animals on it, and they can use them or let hunters that lease there use them. Or sell them to hunters for day/weekend hunts, or whatever.

I know it sounds an aweful lot like MLD and we have something like that in Texas already but still, something to consider.

In the big picture that might be a better deal for conservation, tags issued according to property size and the size of the herd.

In Texas it’s called MLD program, biggest difference is Missouri has a lot lighter population densities. Most people can’t fathom amount of Deer many MLD properties are required to take

200acres worked the land, mending fences, & other things... Buck only county...
pretty much new what was on the property... We tried getting just 1 doe tag...
Told , not enough deer...
Heard about deer lease with hogs, price was right, 1,100 acres, 24-7-365 hunting, $200.00 year round lease..
So got on it... Land got sold ta neighbor, turned it inta 4 wheeler atraction.. Asked permission ta hog hunt, Told No, Heard about a lease in differant county, $250.00 year round, book showed 4 deer county.
So jumped on it...
New book came out, 1 buck, with 3 day doe...
Didnt see any hogs...
Reason for opening on lease ? Think most can figure that out...
Did the execative hunt, sit in box stand, wait... No one was seeing much for deer, few does, & fawns..
People work hard for thar money, legal tis legal, pay for my Gov. food stamps...
Last two days, did the old school hunt... Two day's seen nice bucks both times...
Ya dont need HF ta see Big Buck$... Think outa the box...
Was on few other leases, didnt see the hogs on leases, did start seeing hog sign by creek were had food plot for deer & deer feeder...
Then WMA opened up just down road, so did hunting thar, & put cams at deer food plots & deer feeders for hog hunten at creek, set up..
Mean time Smith county wet 4 deer...
Hmmm, from not enough ta 4 deer ?
Yet still, took bow in hand & took a stand down at WMA's...

Got D- in grammer, & know most will complain...

Hunting - what once was price of food stamps has become a Richmans Sport...
pappy

Lots of politics, games played, pay ta play...

Who owns wildlife?
The differance tis HFvsLF... Tis all abou the Big Buck$...

still got cheap posts...

I know Max is kidding, but others are not.

It's a simple matter of what is being put into the ecosystem to replace what has been taken from it. For every deer taken, there must be sufficient food, water, and habitat needed to renew the resource.

Or, as is often the case, if there are too many deer for the food, water, and habitat, it is better to remove more deer. The alternative is for nature to remove them, which causes suffering (starvation) and more damage to the habitat.

Proper balance....

Letting them starve be a wasted resource too. Rather take advantage of it than let them starve!