Ideal bullet Performance

What do you consider ideal bullet performance?

I would think full expansion and pass through to allow for tracking. But somebody said they wanted full expansion and the bullet to stop in the animal as it dumped the most energy in the animal.


Thoughts?

I want them bleeding out both sides.

I like a bullet that is designed to retain 60% of its weight. Sometimes they pass through, sometimes they don't.

I don't want a bullet to penetrate to the point of penciling through. I'm fine with finding the bullet in the off-side skin/shoulder. I shoot right through the middle of the front running gear, so impacts are most often dramatic...

x2. I shoot NBTs, NABs, and SGKs almost exclusively.

I clean 20+ animals a year that we find the bullet embedded just under the skin on the opposite of penetration. They are generally all destroyed inside, full of blood and jelly. These deer/antelope generally do nor go far, so tracking is not a big deal.
So no pass through is just fine for me.

Full expansion and pass through.
If you need the energy the bullet still had after exiting use a bigger gun.

M

X3. I'm one that will never complain about bullet failure when I have no exit and the animal drops on the spot.

I don't think it is boiled down so easily as this and I don't really think the condition of the bullet is nearly as important as the condition of the animal. In other words, what is happening to the bullet isn't nearly as important as what is happening to the animal. You can get comparable levels of lethality with bullets than perform very differently.

The bullets that I like for killing hogs are not bullets that I would like nearly as much if I was a meat hunter because they leave so much lead behind in the animal and it is in the form of tiny pieces that sometimes can be found outside of the main wound channel that is often fairly massive. It is the massive wound channel, however, that I really like to see. The more tissue destruction being done, the better. The bullets in question tend to leave permanent wound channels larger than the diameter of the expanded {when recovered} bullet.

If I was a meat hunter, I think I would prefer one of the monolithic bullets that seem to bore such nice holes through the bodies of animals, often with nice clean wound channels that seem to be about the diameter of the expanded bullet, leaving no lead behind, and often overpenetrating too boot.

You don't need expansion with the high-shoulder shot.

But,

I have recently switched from Accubonds (several instances of bullet fragmentation in antelope without exit) in favor of Barnes LRXs. Lead poisoning is real, which is why I chose the all copper option. If I'm going to feed ground meat to my kid (soon to be kids), I don't want to drop their IQ or cause any of the other ill effects of excessive lead exposure. Otherwise, the Nosler Partition is really hard to beat, and I killed 50 whitetails and a bunch of other stuff with that bullet out to 300 yards.

A note on performance. I hit a 24 inch steel plate at 1000 yards with 180gr LRXs out of my 300 Win Mag 7 of 10 shots.

Either one is fine, as long as the bullet expands. I've had lots of past through's and some that did not, depending on animal size, toughness, and shot angle. All resulted in no real tracking, and cleanly killed animals.

Just curious, did you cut open the animal to explore the wound tract? The reason why I ask is that in numerous cases I have seen unremarkable exit wounds, often that look like unexpanded bullet exits, when it fact the bullet expanded, did lots of damage, and either due to skin stretch or loss of petals, made an unremarkable exit.

Only whitetail buck I've ever shot was 120 yards. Right shoulder entry, found the bullet in the left flank area, no exit. 165 gr Sierra Game Kind SPBT out of a .308 Win. Bullet expanded to 3/4" and still weighed 140 gr (still have it). Lungs destroyed, G.I. track destroyed.

Bull elk, 200 yards, 7 Rem Mag 180 gr VLD-Hunting @3000 fps MV. We did not gut him, but I do not recall an exit wound. He was on the ground 5 seconds after he was hit, and had only made about 4 slow steps.

What animal?

I’m with Hwy Man, in that I prefer an exit wound. Sometimes tracking has to happen, so more blood makes the tracking easier. As for bullet preference, all I use these days (and have used since Nosler quit making SBBTs) is the Nosler Ballistic Tip. Effective and sometimes messy, and i most always get an exit wound on deer of all sizes. Don’t get many exit wounds on hogs though. I shoot a 260 these days, with 120 gr BTs. With my 270 I use the 130 gr BTs.

I want them to drop where they are standing...I bet 98% of the deer I have shot have dropped in their tracks and the other 2% didn't go but a few yards.

Whitetail each year I am only on a doe hunt. Also went on a cow elk hunt last year. 3 whitetail and one cow elk, were shot in the brainstem. That flips the main breaker, and they fall straight to the ground.

Interesting thoughts....

How about another question:
What percentage of deer in Texas when they are killled
A) dead where they were standing
B) dead within 10yards
C) dead beyond 10 yards


I would say
A) 10%
B) 60%
C) 30%

But that’s just gut feeling

My experience says deer that drop where they stand are most often (by far) impacted by a CNS shot. Lung shot deer tend to run off some distance, depending on the bullet used. I personally like to shoot through both shoulders if possible.

I don’t shoot animals for the sake of saving meat. I want to anchor that animal where it stood. I don’t track but I get to help track many and they all are the meat saving attitude..

I like vmaxes and Berger vld.

I taught my wife and all 3 kids to shoot point of the shoulder. They never run. Ever. Any bullet will work with this shot. I shoot what I am most confident in. I reload exclusively Nosler BT and Accubond. Both 180's shoot the same spot. We are MLD with ton's of hogs to shoot. 60+ animals a yr and we find them all. 95% DRT. It's bullet placement/Accuracy not performance in my opinion.

Ideal bullet performance happens when your shot is good. You can have the best bullet made and unless it is a 50 BMG in the belly it doesn't matter.

50 cal will suck a deer’s eyes out just passing near it

Only in the mind of a crazy man!

Placement and the ability to penetrate reliably are what matter.

not entirely. A well placed FMJ will penetrate reliably but may pencil through with little tissue damage, resulting in a LONG and difficult trailing job

On the lease I had in Llano county the landowner wanted all hogs shot. It was even in our lease agreement. After putting several into the freezer, I went to fmj 223 ammo. Put one through the lungs and let them run off into the brush. Landowner was pleased that they were dead. BUT, when shooting for the freezer, I wanted expansion and complete pass-through. DRT was preferred and most animals shot seemed to do that. The few times the shot either veered off or I didn't do my part, the blood trail was easier to follow and most didn't go more than 20 yards.

My preferred tracking job has always been 3 feet straight down.

I agree with what I read years ago from John Nosler. He wanted a bullet that would open reliably, loose 30-40% of its weight in the form of secondary projectiles after opening then retain enough weight to open a good hole on the other side.

Another guy some of you might know or have read some of his writing summed it up pretty well for the 7mm-08 and could be said for many other cartridges and their approproate weight bullets. Put a Nosler partition through the vitals of a buck and all his desire to escape goes out the other side.

I also prefer the bullet to shed a little weight but still exit. I like the accubond, partition, and sciracco. I have used the ttsx/etip a good bit and they work just fine without shedding any weight. I just shoot at least one shoulder on whitetail size game.

The members on our lease do not shoot young bucks. Mature bucks are shot in the shoulder, almost anything will work fine. If you want meat shoot a doe in the ear. We have (lots of) hogs. Sometimes a twofer is available so a heavier, stronger bullet is nice. Nothing beats horsepower, shoot the most powerful caliber you are comfortable with. Everything will work out great.

I call it "high shoulder" on the deer I shoot. I do it with a 165 gr., .308, 2840 mv, Hornady SST bullet. I hit them below the spine in the area where there is a high concentration of arteries, one of which is the lower carotid. This is about a 4-5" space for this bullet to damage 2-3 major arteries, the kinetic energy causing enough hydrostatic shock to the brain and heart at the same time that they die instantly. With or without an exit, blood loss is huge. Growing up, I was taught the typical shoulder shot. I looked for a lot of deer. 30 years ago, by accident I hit one as described above, "high". DRT. Since then, I do it on purpose.

Barnes doesn't make a 180 grain 30 cal LRX. They make a 175 grain. But a 24" plate at 1000 yards is a pretty big plate. That's 2.5 MOA in size. The solid copper bullets do have less shock than a same weight lead bullet. Lead opens up easier and transfers more energy into the target. That's why they work better.

There are many schools of thought on this topic. When talking to customers about bullet options, I ask this exact question. "Do you want the bullet to dump all it's energy into the animal, or do you want an exit on the other side?" Each caliber (300 Win Mag vs a 300 blk out), bullet weight and speed are big factors for each one. If you like to dump all the bullets energy into the target, then a softer bullet, or a bullet designed to expand easily would be a good choice. Berger Hunting VLD's are one of the best for this. They open up and fragment easily, and make a MASSIVE wound channel. I load ammo for a few TV shows, and they want their animals to immediately drop after being hit. We went to a 190 Berger VLD-H at 3050 fps, and it's like Thor's hammer. They drop elk, whitetail and mulies in their tracks with it. They don't care about the meat, just anchoring them where they stand. They are pleased. Nosler Ballistic Tips are also known for dramatic expansion. A lot of you standard cup and core bullets (standard soft points) also are like this.

Other hunters want full penetration, or close to it. A good bonded bullet or tough lead bullet on the heavier side for caliber works well. One of my favorites is a Nosler Accubond. It's a very good bullet. The new ELD-X from Hornady have been doing very well on penetration and expansion. The ELD-X is a controlled expansion bullet with the bullet jacket tapering thicker the lower on the bullet you go. The 200, 212 and 220 ELD-X bullet have been freakin' awesome in 300 Win Mag's. One customer shot a large mule deer at a lasered 640 yards with a 212 ELD-X and had tennis ball size exit wounds with massive trauma. I like that bullet!

I've never been a fan of the Barnes solid copper bullets, as well as a lot of customers. I load and shoot a lot of them. But they do not transfer energy like a lead bullet does. They are great at penetration. You will get 1.5 times expansion (given enough impact speed) and often full penetration. You get full penetration because less energy is used to transfer to the animal.

But, over all, shot placement is #1. I know of many shooters that use standard Sierra MatchKings and BTHP bullets for culling animals out up to elk size. Yes, the bullet performance is less predictable, but a well placed shot with the right round will do the job just fine.

Barnes all the way.

In my 30-06 I have always been a fan of Nosler partitions. They just plain work for me. When I was shooting my 243 it was Berger hybrids at 3050 FPS did the job no problem. When I was shooting my 284 Winchester it was hornady amax. No problems with it either. All animals were either drt or within 20 yards. To me bullet placement has a lot to do with it.

shot placement. Usualy go for the heart lung area, archery shot.
Bigger area for error. Target shooting is one thing, they dont move. Have lost a deer or two, but always, always put forth my best efforts to recover. Some said take neck shot, yet it smaller area for error. Have blown out lungs & heart, & deer ran. Spending next day trying ta recover instead of hunting.
Never had a deer drop in tracks. In different thread, had mentioned practicing tracking blood trail. Having a buddy make mock trail using ketchup then tring to trace it.
Back in day, it was hunters responcability ta do his best ta retreave animal, fence held no boundry. Had talked ta hunters on ajoining lease that did hunt fence line. It thar side, explained were our stands were, & i walked that fence line ta go to my sons syand, his was oppiset direction ruffly 100yrds in. Told em if they did hit deer & it jumped fence, drive around ta camp & we would help trail. Tis how we did it up north, work with each other.
You got digram of area ?

Google it. Look for a diagram of a mature buck with his head up. Go straight up from the leading edge of front leg, and stop about 5-6 inches from the top of his back. For me, this what I refer to as high shoulder. You'll see nerves and the arteries I mentioned. The wound channel from the SST bullet I mentioned takes out all of this. As a very young hunter, my dad had me shooting much lower and back from the line I'm on now.

Too close to "no man's land" for me. I'm heart/ lung, or brain stem.

I have been shooting shoulder shots-high, point or thru both shoulders (breaking both of them if possible) for over 25 yrs now. I prefer that shot to any other when I can get it. It has put the deer on the ground where they stand and that was important to me where I was hunting. Hunting by myself on MLD, I did want to have to track an animal into thick cover then try to get it out of there by myself. I shot a ton of animals with a .270 using 130 grain Core-lokt and rarely get a pass thru when shooting in the shoulders. Majority of the times the bullet was laying under the skin in the offside shoulder. For me the ideal bullet is the one that shoots very well out of my rifles and the animal is laying where it was standing.

I aim for the heart. I think 3 dimensional from most any angle and aim for the heart. I have had the best luck with this.

Here's a diagram, with my POA added:

Here is the shots I like to take if they are broadside.

Slightly quartering I aim here.

This is the shot I prefer if I have more than one deer in front of me that I am going to shoot. Their butt falls out from under them and when they hit the ground they never move again. Crease of the shoulder and the neck.

Shot placement is key for these shots more so that bullet type I am shooting. If I err a little you can see the bullet still is in vitals or bone. If I hit the deer where I am aiming there is no tracking and hardly ever a pass thru.

That'll put them on the ground.

What I like about these shots, it puts the nervous system in the mix.

It depends on the animal size, you can change the bullet for each different size of the animal, but I prefer to use the crossbow for hunting.

For Texas big game, if I were choosing one bullet as a do it all, it would be a heavy for caliber bullet, give good expansion, combined with enough horsepower to expect a large exit wound. I don't use that for everything but overall it would be my preferred combination.

Nosler Accubonds for 3000 fps and above
Sierra gamekings for slower cartridges.

My 260 Remington and 140 gr gamekings makes big holes and plenty of blood to trail.
Chad made up some 143 gr eld-x ammo for my creedmoore, but haven't shot any game with it yet. I figure at 2750 fps at the muzzle, it will do fine.

I have used that same .270 with 130 grain Core-lokt ammo to take Mule Deer in Texas/Alberta, Red Stag in New Zealand, Axis, Sika, Aoudad, Hogs, and predators in Texas. All were shot in the same shoulder area I would shoot a WT in. What I prefer to shoot may not work for someone else and what they shoot may not work for me.

Hornady 162 gr 7mm ELD-X. From short barrel 7mm-08, 20"-24" 7mm-08 A.I., 284 Win, 280 Rem, .280 A.I, 7mm Rem Mag.

That's 2550 fps to 3100 fps, same bullet. Would do it all.

I love that shot. Anchors them every time. Just like you said, their butt falls first, then the rest is just gravity's effect on a dead body.

FMJ right between the white patches on the neck.

140 gr. Sierra Game King. 7mm-08 out of 26" Hart match bbl at 2850+ fps. 228 lb live weight whitetail. 138 yards. Square through both sholders. Bullet was recovered under the skin on opposite shoulder. His butt was the first thing to hit the ground. Pretty awesome performance from a long-ago designed bullet.

Also have 6-8 165 and 180 gr Swift Sciroccos recovered from heavier animals. 300 RUM. 27" bbl. Beautiful mushrooms. I'll have to try and find them. Very interesting discussion

You mean like this?

STX that is exactly why I do not like neck shots unless very close and stable rest. I have seen too many of those deer on leases where some thought a neck shot they are either DRT or a miss.

No. Those are misses. Resulting in suffering deer.

Wish I had video of the shot I'm talking about, I've taken. Dead before they hit the ground. But that ain't your WalMart .270 with Rem Core Lokts shot.

Yup. I have done the same with a 160 SGK for a long time.

When my son was young, I loaded him a lot of the 140 SGK fouzman posted for his 7-08 though. Watching him kill a lot of stuff, I came to the conclusion: out of a 7-08, inside of 300, I really like a 140. The effectiveness of the more violent upset that particular combo produces impressed me.

That was not my shot, but someone else with his rifle and ammo. The results speaks for itself no matter what he was shooting with. My cheapo shots are 100% shoulder area shots.

Yes deer move their head around a lot. Not a good shot to take especially from long distance IMO.

I wasn't making an accusation. Lots depend on where I am placing the bullet. Distance, wind, and/or less than perfectly steady will take me off of the brain stem, and onto heart, or lungs.

excellent

Sierra Game Kings, 165 gr 308 from Federal or Chad, thru the shoulders on trophies, thru the heart on meat, I don't like to track anything.

I love pot roasting a whole shoulder when wife and kids make a trip home. I eat on it for a week.

I enjoy the shoulders more than I do the back straps. If I hit a deer in the shoulder, it was a bad shot.

I’ve seen several deer with huge holes through their shoulder blades, anchored but very much alive.

My goal isn’t to anchor a deer right there, but for them to die as quickly as possible.

My son and I will shoot for vitals only.

Very few deer actually hit in vitals are lost.

You're right, it's 175gr.
I would love to see how many people currently on this thread can hit a 24" circle at 1000 yards ONCE in 10 shots with their best set-up. Also, it isn't 2.5MOA, it's closer to 2.3MOA.
"Easier" expansion actually doesn't matter, 100% energy transfer if the bullet stops, if it passes through, something less, but even that doesn't matter if you pass through the spinal cord.
if you are a smart a**, I will return in kind, thanks for playing.

Smart A--? I don't see it.