PSA for those who consider killing raptors to protect livestock.

Posting this here because it’s too important to get buried on he caracara thread, and I don’t want anyone here to get in trouble they didn’t think they could get into.

The fed doesn’t play. In the 70’s the area where I now live down through the Frio and nueces river bottoms were angora goat and sheep country.

It was also (and still is to some extent) eagle country. Hundreds of both golden and bald eagles migrated to these river bottoms to nest in the winter. The easiest prey around at that time was kids and lambs. The ranchers were losing lots of stock to predation by eagles. So they used the most effective means available to wage a war on the animals that were destroying their livelihood. They used helicopters to thin the eagles down.

The fed learned about it and sent an undercover fishcop out to investigate and he spent over a year out here compiling evidence on people who were “just protecting their property” from predators.

I have friends and acquaintances who spent time in a fed prison because of that investigation and resulting prosecution.

As I said on the other thread, I don’t agree with all the protections provided to raptors. Mainly because I lose thousands of dollars annually to their appetite for tasty valuable critters. But just because I don’t agree with those laws and believe I ought to be able to kill these predators, doesn’t mean I don’t know that is a losing path. The laws SHOULD protect both the animals AND livestock raisers. The fed doesn’t see it that way.

“Incident at Eagle Ranch” is a good read if you ever want to know how far our lovely fed will go to keep ranchers from protecting their property.

Is that the story where the FEDs showed up at one place and took all the pickups and trailers? It was written up in one of the livestock mags. Serious bidness.

I don’t think so. This was back in the 70’s. The laws were fresh and the mindsets hadn’t adjusted.

My understanding is there is a big difference between going out and hunting them (which is a big no-no without a permit), and catching them in the act of actually killing your livestock.

And they had the carcasses and pics of eagles on their sheep/goats. Guess who won in court? There are good men who spent prison time believing the way you do.

I understand it's risky business. If someone really has an issue with raptor predation, best thing to do is apply for a permit to kill them. We were talking caracaras though. The law only mentions Bald & Golden Eagles by permit. I don't think most people care about shooting caracaras if they were causing problems. Unless you're with the Fed, of course. I've only had dealings with one Federal Warden, and he was a mofo.

Skinner,

that is incorrect.

Crested Caracaras, the correct name, are on the list of species protected by the Migratory Bird Treaty Act. That is not debatable.

https://www.fws.gov/birds/management/managed-species/migratory-bird-treaty-act-protected-species.php

There is no exception for seeing them taking livestock making it legal to kill them.

I'm open to seeing such an exception in federal law if you can post a link, but I am not aware of one.

Federal law pre-empts state law on this issue, again, that is not debatable.

There may be circumstances in which the USFWS will grant a permit to allow "take" of a species, even endangered species, but that approval has to be sought in advance, not after the fact.

Old saying in the law, "you can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride." Having to hire a lawyer to fight federal felony charges is going to start - start - in the $25,000 - $50,000 range for legal fees, and could easily run into the $100's of $1000's if someone really had the means and will to fight. Losing could result in felony convictions, which means prison time, major fines, loss of the right to own a firearm for life, loss of the right to vote, loss of occupational licenses, among other consequences.

As therancher is trying to make clear, this area is not something to dismiss and take lightly.

Heed his advice.

Good post rancher.

The "permit exception" might only mention bald and golden eagles. But the law protecting them mentions every bird except house sparrows, starlings and maybe a couple of others. And I promise you the state wardens (who are charged with enforcing fed laws) will cite you for killing virtually any bird other than game birds in season. Again, they are taught to "be your friend".... they are NOT your friend. But learn what you need to learn at your own pace.

Get a falcon, they hate hawks, eagles, and owls. Become a falconer fight fire with fire.

Close friend chose to fight a lacy act violation and it cost him $250,000. He was let off easy but you are right about the ride not being any fun.

Don't even get me started about the outdated worthless lacy act...

Even better, hire a falconer. Falcons are like swimming pools and horses.

Yeah currently have a red tail and I’m still an apprentice. Haven’t taken the falcon jump yet. If I could trap a sub adult falcon I’d have one already, because I can’t afford to buy one. Not a big enough population of them to attempt to trap one locally, like red tails.

Yes Sir, I understand they are on the list. I was referring to this link permit . Pertaining to the permit to take (kill) depredating eagles. I don't know if you can get a permit to kill depredating Caracaras or not? I've never shot a Caracara and don't plan to, just got myself involved in an interesting conversation. I must admit that I am a firm believer in protecting one's property and lively hood, and I also understand that Federal Law trumps State Law MOST of the time (not always)...but I'm a bit of a rebel I guess. I even rip the tags off of my mattresses and risk fines and imprisonment.

I'm curious to know if this wouldn't be considered hunting since the falcon would be
under the control of the handler? And if so, also a violation?

I don't know, just wondering.

No falconer would ever fly his bird on another BOP. I was joking. We avoid any known BOP territory especially in nesting season. Watched my master falconer lose a Harris hawk to a prairie falcon. Wasn’t cool lots of work and money gone.

Just curious. Thanks.

Had some buddies with hawks many moons ago when I was at A&M. Learned from them I wouldn’t have the time or commitment it takes to own them. Love watching them work. In England since they outlawed guns many have turned to hawks for hunting.

I love watching the videos of the Kazakhstanis hunting deer, goats and wolves with theirs. Incredible.

When would federal law ever not overrule state law?

In dealing with pot and illegals!!!!!!!!

Start with marijuana.

Federal regulations would not trump state law when it comes to things that take place entirely within the state. Theoretically. Pot sales that don't cross state lines aren't any of the Fed's business unless they really want to fight it out in the Supreme Court. I don't anyone in Washington wants to deal with the repercussions if they lose that fight.

TPWD has a depredation permit process. I know first hand that the State can, will, and has issued permits for caracaras eradication for killing new born calves on a very large well known S. TX ranch (commercial cattle operation).

https://tpwd.texas.gov/business/permits/land/wildlife_management/depredation/index.phtml

Let’s be honest, God created SCB’s string rays in your country because of Feds.

Sorry Bobo you lost me, LOL.

Was a joke, kind of. It’s a 80mph flats bay boat. Hard to talk to them going 80

Aaaahhhh LOL, gotcha.

Some folks think popping buzzards, owls and roadrunners is okay too, but they are protected under the same laws that protect eagles and hawks, and cardinals, and finches, and...
Having a feather from any of the protected birds (pretty much every bird) is also a no-no.

Those videos are awesome have you seen the one where the massive golden carries the adolescent goat(id say 50-60lbs) probabaly.50 yards and drops it off the cliff to.kill it.

Federal law still trumps the state on that one - they just have chosen to ignore the illegal activity in States that ok it.

JR

Even better, hire a falconer. Falcons are like swimming pools and horses.
[/quote]
Yeah currently have a red tail and I’m still an apprentice. Haven’t taken the falcon jump yet. If I could trap a sub adult falcon I’d have one already, because I can’t afford to buy one. Not a big enough population of them to attempt to trap one locally, like red tails. [/quote]

Had some buddies with hawks many moons ago when I was at A&M. Learned from them I wouldn’t have the time or commitment it takes to own them. Love watching them work. In England since they outlawed guns many have turned to hawks for hunting.

I love watching the videos of the Kazakhstanis hunting deer, goats and wolves with theirs. Incredible. [/quote]

Those videos are awesome have you seen the one where the massive golden carries the adolescent goat(id say 50-60lbs) probabaly.50 yards and drops it off the cliff to.kill it. [/quote]

Yep

And no one questioned that. The thread was initiated because people were indicating they believed they were perfectly justified killing raptors just because they were predating or a threat to their livestock.

There's also something in Federal law about a state governor being allowed to proclaim a certain season where raptors can be shot.

All of this talk about eagles and what not made me reach for a bottle of Eagle Rare bourbon for a night cap.

Question - pigeon is on the MBTA but there is no bag limit or season for pigeon. What’s the right answer on the mile long list?

There are native pigeons, such as Red-billed Pigeons along the Rio Grande (called Paloma Morada in Mexico "Purple Dove"), and Band-tailed Pigeons in the mountain country out west, or White-crowned Pigeons in Florida, all of which are protected and subject to hunting regulations.

But, the species of pigeons occurring under bridges and around town are not protected in any way. They are in the same category as feral pigs.

The current common name for the non-native species is Rock Pigeon. They were called Rock Doves for a few decades, but moved back into the pigeon family which seems pretty obvious.

There is another non-native species of pigeon that has become very common in Texas, the Eurasian Collared Dove. As a feral non-native species, it too is the same as feral pigs and not protected.

Here is a link worth scrolling down to see other similar species.

https://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/Rock_Pigeon/id

You don’t know what you are talking about.

Sure

Texas has it's own power grid to avoid Federal regulation. Perfect example.

Most criminal acts are committed entirely within one state. That’s not the controlling issue.
It’s the migratory nature of the birds that brings them under federal jurisdiction in this case.
Could be any number of things for other laws, most of the time federal jurisdiction comes from the Commerce clause - which has been very broadly defined since just after WWII.