I have a question about the value of protein feeding?

I have had the privilege of running a high end LF south texas ranch for years.

As I reflect about the supplemental feeding here is my summary. We run 20-30 trail cameras per year and set them on two pics every five minutes. We have looked at thousands upon thousands of pictures. Rarely does a buck stay in the pen eating protein for more than five minutes.

My question is this - how much protein can a deer consume in five minutes or less? Compare that to how much they can consume over the course of a day with natural habitat/browse or a food plot? The cameras do not lie - I see what I see and most bucks do not spend enough time at a feeder to consume enough feed to make a difference IMO.

In drought conditions I believe protein and cottonseed pay their way. During good range conditions? I wonder if the cost is worth it?

NOTE: If in a controlled setting where the property is HF or partially HF and budget is no issue then placing a protein feeder every 100 acres like a feed lot will most certainly pay off. But for most hunters that option is not available due to cost and leasing options (small ranches, etc.)

So I am wondering what I am missing? I get that protein feeding is the popular and promoted world we live in - but is it really the difference in growing big deer in free range situations?

STXranchman I am curious as to your thoughts

You’ll never convince me that feeding protein to deer on 90% of properties in this state is doing anything but keeping feed mills in business. Even then, break down the dollars spent per inch gained, and it’s rarely worth the money or effort, in my mind.

Supplemental feeding is just that, a food source that supplements the natural browse.

Can it make a difference? Absolutely, based on my 30+ years hunting in East Texas. Bucks that hit protein feeders develop more mass at earlier ages than bucks that are limited to available browse. But it doesn't translate into a lot more deer since deer disperse themselves to natural browse and cover in much the same manner no matter how much you feed them.

It becomes more obvious when you see a 3-1/2 year old buck that has the mass of an older buck but on a smaller frame.

Just my $.02.

In Runnels county, there are so many that are feeding protein and corn etc., practically year round, that most low fence operations will see the effect on their place without feeding. There are 2 places that border our place and they both feed corn year around, the protein starting in Jan and going through May. The deer in that area bed down on our place and another place. We crank up our feeders in September, and the deer start to spend more time on our 2 places than the neighbors that feed all year because we have the majority of the cover on our place.

I hear people comment on how expensive it is to feed protein. If deer aren't eating much of it then why would it be expensive?

I know that almost 100% of protein is fed in gravity feeders and as you say, they say it is expensive. I wonder how much corn I would go through in a week if I fed it the same way compared to how I feed now, which is using a spin feeder to control the amount they get each day. Would I be saying that corn is just too expensive to feed?

Huntin over green just feels better. I would'nt know about the feeder deal. Killed a deer when I was a kid eating under a feeder. Felt like shooting a cow at a trough. Now days they feed deer out of feed troughs. Just seems wrong. Grow some green.

Maybe I'm foolish in feeding so much protein but for some reason I just love these crazy deer. Maybe I have an addiction. My experience with protein is limited to the last few years since I bought my place. I have seen a big increase in the number of deer I am seeing vs. just feeding corn spinning. I also see that the younger deer seem to be putting on weight faster. I feed protein and corn year around on my LF place but so far have been pretty lucky and don't have a lot of close hunting pressure on my bordering fence. Heck I didn't even shoot a deer last season but I will carry on just as I have done the last few seasons. I do also plant wheat in the fall but to be honest rain has been so scarce the last few falls in my area if anything is a waste it would probably be that.

Corn is not protein, or at least it's not equal to protein type feeds. Corn is candy, it draws them in and keeps them coming back.

For protein to work, you really can't allow them to eat anything else. This is why the really big bucks that you see on deer farms are in small pens without anything growing in there. There are other reasons that they are in small pens too, like being able to sell them when they are grown out and ready to be shot on a hunting ranch. They eat protein, and only protein, and their racks grow freakishly big, extremely quickly from this diet. Other things play into that, but if those same bucks are left in a pasture with natural food to eat, the following year they are not nearly as impressive as they where when they where kept in that small pasture.

Been feeding protein for more than 20 years now. It definitely makes a difference during drought. And it may permit you to carry a higher deer density than you could, otherwise. When conditions are excellent such as they have been the past three years on our place in Webb County, and you have a bunch of good browse, the deer eat very little protein. The one big benefit is the mineral packs in protein pellets. I think that's probably more important in overall herd health than anything else. But all other things being equal, I'd rather have high-fenced food plots of lablab than pellets, IF we had the ability to irrigate. Which we do not.

tlk, you've probably seen this study since it dates back to 1991. If not, some decent reading.

https://tpwd.texas.gov/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_bk_w7000_0033.pdf

I think protein really pays dividends in two ways, in hard times, and like anything else we hunters put out, attraction.

Since you said LF I think it could matter a lot. 10,000 acres LF with a 100 acre neighbor with a 2000 lb free choice protein feeder could pull a lot of deer.

I do also share your curiosity about protein feed as we have put cameras on them also and several of our better deer have never showed at one... on the other hand some practically live at one.

My buddies HF place they see almost everything at the protein feeders.

1. It is SUPPLEMENTAL feed; you aren't replacing their food source, just augmenting what's available.
2. It is a complete food source, with large quantities of nutrients, vitamins, and minerals. They don't have to eat a little oak brush, and a little clover, and a few acorns to put it all together. This can cover deficiencies in your range.
3. They have to do zero work to get it other than jump in a pen and chew. No grazing or browsing is required, meaning they burn almost no calories while consuming it.
4. Have you ever seen livestock eat feed? Our goats can inhale a half pound of cubes in a flash. Five minutes at a protein feeder for a deer is a lot of feed.


You're basically encouraging them to over-eat while at the same time reducing the stress on them required to make a living.

deer are different. I've have thousands of pics of deer eating for 10-15 minutes straight. I had a deer years ago that would hang out for an hour eating. We had water stations inside the feeder pen though, and that makes a difference on how much protein a deer will eat at one time.

Yep, if you don't have your protein feeders fairly close to water, you're spinning your wheels.

My 2 cents...

I put an all,season protein feeder up over The Weeknd. I have more pics of deer on that feeder then I did on the corn feeder for two weeks before...


I do a 50/50 split with protein and corn

What protein do you mix in with the corn?

When you are feeding protein, one thing many folks aren't aware of, is that quality protein feed will have copper in it also. If you are leasing and your landowner has sheep, copper will kill sheep. Another reason to have pens up.

Another thing to take into account is that as the year progresses the natural forage deer eat will lose it's protein value and most of the time, unless it is a very wet year, what they end up eating is mostly fiber because the plants dry out.

Just stuff to think about.

antler max

I see a difference in weight but not really in the antlers until 4 years and up. Recovery post rut is great. Now geographical locations make a difference and are actually in my situation the opposite of what I expected. Our lease in Hays county where there are not of lot of natural high protien browse does not get hit hard by the whitetail but the red stag demolish it. Now the place that we own north of Comstock the whitetail hit the protien real steady but hard to measure antler development due to hi pressure on our fence lines. We have a bunch of young 8’s who are showing decent mass,and tine length. Now body size is great, but there is a lot of natural high protien browse here so are the signs due to the supplemental or the browse. Probably a good mix of both and during drought we will really see it pay off.

Ahhh, questions in the middle of the night. Young 8s can be great, but is the 8 gene stuck? It is a natural and common growth, like in the bible. Some irragated deer peas and fertilizer may push out some extra abnormal points, but it may be on an 8 point frame.

I may be wrong and I am quite a bit according to some but here are my thoughts on feeding protein. I believe if you are going to do it you have to be serious about it. You need to have out self feeders where the Deer have a constant supply of all they want to eat. You are going to need deep pockets and don't care about the cost. Second You are going to have to keep this up for a number of years. Third. You are going to have to take out any Bucks or Does that don't look like they have the features you are looking for. Fourth. You are going to have to get to a good Buck to Doe ratio. Unless you are HF or have a reasonably large place you are spinning your wheels. Unless you have some good genetics to start with again you are spinning your wheels.

Deer breeders use it. Dont know if those deer know what grass or acorns are. Guess the breeders get their money back. A hunter just gets more broke.

Their be 3 types of hunters, upper, middle,
& lower .
Yet ta find a good reciepy for ed horns...

Agree, and like Don K said it takes a few years and you have to be dedicated. My place in Hays has some very large neighbors but the deer use don’t seem to hit the protien. But we are able to let deer get age due to low hunting pressure. We are only in year 3 feeding protien on this place and year 2 on the Val Verde place. The Val Verde place is 500+/- and lots of pressure from some neighbors. We have to get the ratio i check as well in Val Verde and that will definitely help

Never fed protein and probably never will, but that doesn't mean much. If you want antlers you have to have fed and plenty of it. If it's taking everything they have just to survive there's nothing left for antler growth. I don't just feed the deer I over feed them, first it keeps them on the place and second it definitely makes a difference in antler growth. As dry as it is this year I'm afraid I'm going to have to feed during the summer or it will be another 2011 when we lost almost 90% of our fawn crop and close to 50 head of cows. I don't want to see that again, probably going to put in some cotton seed feeders.

Most of the sales of it are simply to make folks feel like they are doing something.

When a buck sheds his antlers and the new antlers start to grow immediately. Which enables him to grow larger antlers, the protein effect or the hopeful better physical condition of the body due to past protein in his feed?

I actually think genetics is the the main factor in getting antler growth.Not being overstocked in Deer or any other animal that utilizes the same feed plays a big part. And letting a deer get to the age that the antlers are at their maximum growth. But everything has to work out just right all those years he needs to get to that age. Drought, sickness, injury etc. are going to play into if he will ever get to that point. Genetics. A deer will only produce the antlers his genes will let him produce. The best feed in the world can only do so much. He may in the best year of his life be a 120 inch deer no matter what he gets to eat. On the other hand a deer that has never tasted protein my be a 175 inch deer. Again I may be wrong but I believe AR's are going about it the wrong way if getting better antlers is what the goal is. You are shooting the best deer that should be kept for breeders. You are keeping narrow antlered deer for breeding. If you are in the cattle or say Ibex business like myself you use the best Bull or Billie for your breeders. You don't use some inferior bull or a Ibex with short horns because that is what your offspring will look like. AR's should be for a number of years flipped 180 degrees. Nothing over 13 inches wide should be legal. Shoot all the tight antlered bucks and let the wide ones do the breeding.

adding protein is not going to turn your deer into monsters over night, or even over a season or maybe even the entire deer's life. Nutrition is a component to a deer. You have to make a decision if feeding deer is worth while based on your conditions/goals and your current set up. I do a 50/50 corn protein feed mix so my incremental cost over straight corn is not as bad. Also i have it on a timed release so i don't have one animal eat it all.

The use of protein fed sporadically to a free-roaming deer herd cannot be compared to feeding it to enclosed bucks in huge quantities. Two entirely different things.
Just like comparing genetic impacts/manipulation of captive animals to wild, free-roaming deer. LF wild deer population genetics are almost never changed in any macro way by hunting. Been hearing about the “narrow-rack” selection impacts of ARs for over a decade now. Haven’t seen it yet other than a few who anectdotally claim it (and were in a “narrow” gene pool area anyway). Going back to shooting 1 1/2- 2 1/2 years olds would not be a good idea.

Yes but how many of those 1/2-2 year old are what you want to breed your herd with? I realize I know squat about much of anything. But I do have age and experience on a lot of things. Common sense tells you that breeding inferior animals over and over again will keep getting you the same result. Sometimes you need to bite the bullet and do what it takes to get a better end result in the future.

I think I would agree with the genetics and do agree the free range bucks will not compare to bucks in a enclosed area. We like to take the largest buck with the best antler and thus we have eliminated a good breeder. What is a man to do? Cleric has a good idea in mixing protein and corn, I may try that.

You know a lot, obviously.

I just think HF enclosed and wild, free-roaming populations are two entirely different things.
A lot of folks are mimicking what controlled operations do, but largely to little avail.

Intent of this post was not to start a pis*** match.

I will say we had a 175 inch 9 point some years back - he was a protein hog. In the pen 3-4 times a day. We had a very severe drought and he put on 26 inches and made the book at a 15 points with 201 inches the following year.

We are not HF but we are a very large LF ranch with little competition from other neighbors. Some of our bucks tend to hang at feeders more than others. On average though, very few of them consume feed for more than 5 minutes. Proven fact based off of our thousands of trail cam pics.

My original question and post was this - during drought protein seems to make a huge difference - during good, wet years then natural browse seems to be the king. Genetics and age to me are the starting points to grow really big LF deer - add into that a supplemental food source if the browse is not at its best - that makes sense.

My end conclusion is that although protein is a valuable part and contributes to the program it is not the leading factor in producing trophy deer (unless you have unlimited funds and can turn your LF ranch into a feed lot).

First and foremost you must be patient in letting your deer age - you need to be in an area that has some good genetics. You must be willing to manage the herd by keeping the number of deer per acre in check (kill does, cull inferior bucks). Then, if you do all that, the protein can do its magic

You know better than me but I would agree with just about everything you just said. IMO it can help some in certain circumstances if all the stars align. Does it weigh out on the cost/benefit scale?

I guess that’s a personal decision.

The way most feed it I think it does not.

You Sir are dead on - if you are on 100 acres in Hill country then protein truly is a waste of effort, time, and money - folks do not like hearing that but it is what it is

Also if you cannot afford to put out protein on a totally free choice basis then you are wasting your money and time

My philosophy is this - recognize where you are hunting and what the limits are - then do all you can to maximize what your ranch or lease will produce - if that is 120 or 200 inches - be proud of the process of producing the best that the area can produce - a trophy is a trophy based on that criteria

You are both in my opinion completely right. If you run the numbers on what it cost to feed most would be better off money wise to buy a deer or a hunt from someone else who feeds as opposed to doing it yourself. Probably get a larger deer for less money than doing it yourself. Let someone else take the loss. And like NP stated earlier it is mostly a feel good thing. Do it and don't add up what it is costing you for the results you get.

If you don't have the genetics to start with, feeding protein is a waste of money and time.

STXranchman yet ta give his .
this thread if not mistaken, is about efects of suplemental feed (protein) playes on antler growth.
As many have posted genetics & age play a big roll.
Different type hunting were i grew up.
First, winters are harsh, & make it tougher on deer. They need the weight just to survive the winters. Rut plays big roll, buck-doe ratios, & health also.
Deer are natural browsers. When they loose their antlers, weight gain for a healthy deer is were most protein goes. Antler growth is secondary.
As pappy say's: " a deer servise on its health NOT antler growth. "
The 30+ years in hunting on small acre LF free ranging deer. Had the corn feeders, food plots 4 cams, located so could see deer movement, pics every minnute, mostly seen the does coming into the, feeding stations. Pics of the bucks were usualy hitting mineral blocks put out in the warmer, first stages of antler growth. Ta get a pic of a buck, after the velvet pretty much had ta move the cams, scrape & rub lines. Had thread bout, mock scrape, bucks were staying clear of feeders & food plots. Scurting the area's during rut. One of the first things noticed on first lease was on.
We tried getting a doe tag for acreage around house, we worked the fences, brush hoged, spent many hours out doors observing the wildlife. the eyes & ears, yet were told not enough deer.
Ya dont have ta have big bucks or use proper grammer ta be a conservation minded hunter.
The deer in area's have hunted, bucks are basicly basket racks native deer, & antler growth threw years, is little wider, tines tallee, with little more mass. Healthy deer is 1st priority.
i got cheap posts.

true statements - a deer's overall health is critical - that is why we start cottonseed along with our protein in January so our bucks can regain their weight loss post rut - since we added the cottonseed we have seen our body weights increase

noticed you mentioned you have large LF acrage.
Not trying ta the pot. Just my .
Tip me hat.
As pappy say's: FREE Range land benefits ALL hunters, upper, middle & lower class.
Area i hunted was buck only, small acrage, food plots & corn feeders away from fences. After 25+ years, not sure how many years it was buck only before 83, it finaly went ta 4 deer. Before then were told not enough deer for doe tags.
now they got high-tech, trail cams & such, hunters no longer the eyes & ears.

all I know is that I get dizzy when I read your post - lol -

It’s hard to get my deer on protein in east TX. They just have too much else to eat. I have had much better luck with corn and food plots - even though I quit using corn feeders a few years ago (still hand corn some).

I’m under no illusion anything I do is really affecting horn growth though - simply attracting them (at least some of them).

What is your thought on feeder location and pressure on certain protien feeder set ups. Like one as a sanctuary. On our place in Val Verde our 1,000 lb free range feeder is close to a fencline that has 100 acre tracts side by side. There is one of them that is owned by a member on here and he takes maybe 1 or 2 deer a year. The others shoot young deer and run around all the time. We originally put it there to draw deer or hold the one’s we can. Now I am thinking we would be better served putting it down in the center in the canyon that runs through our place.

I would think a sanctuary feeder would be a good idea and that more towards the middle of your property would help draw in and keep deer on your property. You did not say how big your place is so that is a factor.

We do not shoot deer in our feed pens - most of them are not in sight of our stands. We also do not shoot deer within 300 yards of our ponds so that the deer can come to water with a feeling of safety.

Thus the beauty of having a large area to hunt.

totally agree - size matters

500 acres but real large canyons make it feel like 1,000. One neighbor is 800+/- acres,another is 450+/-, 200+/-, then 4 that are 100 acre tracts and those are the one’s that have pressure. We piped water all over the place and built a tank that will hopefully take.

My thought is you want to draw deer into your place and keep them on your place - not to the outside edges of your place.

Guys have this idea that putting feeders/plots on fence lines are better for drawing deer from their neighbors. In reality, it just draws them where neighbors have a chance to hunt them too.

All of our feeders and food plots are as far away as possible from fences, our place has the most cover. It is their year round sanctuary, we don't feed year around. We start feeding in September, that saves the deer the trip to the neighbors that feed year around.

Here is my on it.
There basically two types of people who supplemental feed: those who use it as an attractant and those who use it as a part of their management program. People who supplemental feed are no different than a person who buys a dozer or tractor to use on their ranch for a week or two a year. No different that a person who buys a vacation property on the lake or out of state. No different than a person who buys a horse or companion animal. etc... They are not all looking for a return on their money they invested in what they are doing. That is where the personal preference comes into play just the same as it did on the other toys or things bought. Things are bought and utilized due to a personal need over and over again.
Supplemental feeding is just that, using it as a supplement. If they are eating more than 1 to 1.5 lbs/day on a year round program(under average rainfall) then they are not supplementing. Most people who feed do any surveys for herd ratio, herd density or habitat assessments BEFORE they start feeding. They just want to apply a bandaid over the major problem. Many areas have good habitat but have to many deer or bad ratios. Feeding an over populated habitat is not going to give the results that they expected from starting to feed. Most people do not put up enough feeders. They use the bandaid approach again and then blame the feed program or feed for their mistakes.
The group who uses it as an attractant is not really concerned about how much or little the deer eat, just that they show up to eat it. Most who do this are hunting or owning smaller properties. They are still management minded but not to the degree others are.
The second group is more management minded and serious about why they are using it. They understand the costs involved with it. They will survey and adjust herd numbers as they start or before they start. They will look at habitat improvements also as part of their management plan. They will look at the whole picture not just put out some feed and feeders. Most of those will also feed year round so that supplemental feed is there when the deer need it, not when a hunter wants it.
Supplemental feed feeds more than just bucks. It feeds does and fawns. Feeding does and fawns is more important IME and gets you better long term results. That 190" mature buck did not become 7 yrs old by mistake. He started life inside a doe that was part of a management program. That is a key. Supplemental feed goes to more than just deer also. Birds like quail and turkey really respond well to supplemental feeders. If you just sit back and notice all the wildlife that is around a feeder and benefits from it beside just deer you will be amazed.
In a lot of areas of the state food plots just do not work due to lack of soil quality and/or rainfall. Most people put in kill plots and not food plots to supply extra crops for wildlife. It takes 10-15% of the total acreage on a ranch to grow enough food to do a food plot program correctly. Fall and spring plots. Not many ranchers are going to commit 15% of their acreage to strictly wildlife food plots, especially in cattle country. For food plots to work you have to be committed to farming those plots, not scratching the ground and throwing out seeds. Fencing, good tillage/planting equipment, designated spring and fall food plot acreage, soil testing, etc are all part of good food plots systems. Doing all that gets expensive and some who tried it have stopped in South Texas after putting a pencil to food plots vs. supplemental feed. Throw in lack of rain and it gets even more expensive. Farming for wildlife takes real commitment.
IME with the amount of time a deer will eat from a feeder varies by region of the state. Weather dictates that time length also. In the Hill Country it was not unusual to see a deer eating at a feeder for 20 minutes and multiple times per night/day. South Texas it was usually for 1-3 minutes from one to 5 times per night. Individual deer can eat longer and more often. I do not trust TC to give me a good feel on how long or how much a deer eats. I use actual observations. I have watched a buck stay in a feed pen for 45 minutes eating corn and never get a TC picture of him. I have kept feed records on ranches since 1990. It is a valuable tool. I used it for telling me how many deer were on a place then backing those numbers up after the season was over(deer were removed). Feeding year round is a better gauge. You buy feed and know how much you bought for the year, so you know that feed went somewhere. You have an idea of how many deer are on the place if you survey(TC or other means) and simple math gives you a lbs/hd/day. Feed records can be used long term to see trends in data collected on the overall herd.
There was a study done down at CKWRI on feeders, water and shade. It showed that deer ate more feed and drank more water when both were in the shade or very close to shade. Most people who now are serious about feeding deer are using 2-3 feeders per station in South Texas. They have found that to many deer around one feeder is a real issue on consumption and length of time a deer spends at a feeder. Most places are going to 3 feeder per station or more. They only want 7-10 deer per feeder max and prefer less. They are adding water to feed stations also An expensive commitment. The only real dilemma then becomes solving the shade issue.

I am definitely in the “just bring them to a spot” category. Am under no illusion that I am affecting anything much management-wise with my plots.

I would say most are in that category.

Put me in that category also.

So if you had 15 deer in an area using one feeding location you could effectively feed them with 3 + timed feeders(infact even more effectively, since you have multiple feeder ports away from dominant deer, so that free choice vs timed is irrelevant?)

I agree

If I had 15 deer feeding in one area I would use 2 free choice feeders. Deer in South Texas are different that deer in other areas. Dominant bucks rule feeders year round and the does do not hit feeders much at all in South Texas(when ratios are close) in the spring to summer months. Also spacing those feeders far enough part is critical with a mature deer herd IME. Timed feeders in South Texas could need even more feeders per location if they do not have enough feed ports or bunk space. If I am going to use a timed feeder I would feed after dark and before daylight when bucks are more likely to be active. Does will not show up much at night. Not the best feeding for the overall herd but target specific for bucks only. Bucks are nocturnal in summer due to age, heat and/or not living close enough to the feeders IME.

Don’t disagree, I just find it faulty when some assume you couldn’t fully accomplish a supplementary program with timed options.

You can't unless you want to spend a lot of extra money to buy more feeders and more feed pens. At that point you are just about feeding free choice anyway. Timed feeding fits budget minded hunters or owners who want to feed. The results are not going to be the same unless you really pull numbers down and have a 1:1 ratio. Trying to make a mature buck eat when you want him to will not work very well in most areas of the state. Trying to dictate what deer is eating the feed you control feed is not going to work out to well in the long run. for most people. IME bucks in South Texas that show up as a group to eat free choice will leave as a group when the dominant buck is done eating. Just imagine a dominant 120 class 8pt 6 yr old buck at a timed feeder eating till he is full. Deer will benefit from timed feeding just not all of them or all the ones you want IME. Limit feeding means you have a budget. Rainfall does not pay much attention to your budget.