Friday Discussion Topic-the Great American Bison

I've read other articles that point out that it had to be a massive disease that actually wiped out the buffalo.

But that doesn't fit our self-loathing, white Christian males raped and destroyed the country, agenda. I'm not saying that the hunters had a benign impact, but the numbers, even if grossly over estimated, don't add up.

No, of course not. Hunters did not decimate the population that bad. But then again, hunters didn't have to before pushing the population to near extinction. The Buffalo is relatively slow to reproduce. Once the population is no longer able to reproduce at a rate greater than its mortality, extinction is inevitable unless the pressure to the population is removed. Think about it. Every cow that was slaughtered represented a minimum of three generations. You could not select a North American mammal more susceptible to extinction by massive predation than the Buffalo; huge congregations with predictable migrations.

Preceding the decimation of the Buffalo (and not by much) was the plight of the Passenger Pigeon. Could avarian epidemic have wiped out the Pigeon, possibly. But what a coincidence. Both species congregated in massive numbers with predictable migrations exploited by hunters. Interesting topic to say the least.

Assuming “agendas” behinds every curtain is, in and of itself, an “agenda”. And it often leads to uneducated, unsupported, and un-factual speculative conclusions. In fact, as we may find out, this may be the most harmful “agenda” of all - because it allows folks to disbelieve whatever they want to and then believe whatever they want to - facts be d*mned.

The Cincinnati Enquirer
Cincinnati, Ohio
Nov 23, 1878
THE DOOM OF THE BUFFALO
Wiping out the Shaggy Monsters that Roam on the Plains – The Butchery in Northern Texas – An Englishman’s Experience – Killing the Bison For His Hide – The Life of a Professional Buffalo Hunter – Three Seasons on the Plains – How the Hides are Cured – Pickling the Tongues – Fearful Fate of a Horse Thief.
[New York Sun.]
Forty years ago the trappers of the Western plains sold the pelts of beavers, otters and _____ and killed the bison only for food. Myriads of these shaggy monsters roamed the prairies. Washington Irving, in his “Tour on the Prairies,” sought a herd boundless and undulating as an ocean, all surging northward. They were two days and nights in crossing the Smokey Hill River. There was then a limited market for buffalo hides, and the herds were hunted by the Indians only. They dried the meat for winter use, and use the skins for tepees and blankets. Uncounted millions of the animals wintered in the parks of the Rocky Mountains and on the fertile plains of northern Texas. The cows calved in April and by the 1st of May the shaggy _____ were headed for the Missouri. They advanced northward with the season, browsing upon the sprouting, juicy grasses. They crossed the Missouri River and ran away up into British America. With the approach of winter they swept back into the sunny parts of the Rocky Mountains and spread themselves over the plains of Texas.
The discovery of gold in California (1848) opened a pathway to the Pacific, and this pathway opened a permanent market for buffalo hides. The settlement and rapid development of Kansas and Nebraska forced the herds back toward the mountains. Then gold was found near Pikes Peak (1859), and a _______ of emigration poured into Colorado. Beaver, otter and furred animals began to disappear, and the brawny Kansas buffalo hunters took the place of the half bred Canadian trapper. Millions were killed for their hides alone. The vast herds began to scatter. 10 years later the laying of the Pacific Railroad’s force them from the line of the Platte and Arkansas into northern Texas on the south, and Wyoming and Dakota on the north. The professional hunters followed and for years reap a rich harvest. But the rush of gold seekers to the Black Hills in the settlements along the line of the Northwestern Pacific Road are driving the northern columns into British America, and the development of northern Texas is exterminating the southern columns. Experienced hunters predict that within eight years not a buffalo will be left in Texas.
BROWNING’S CONTRACT
Mr. James Graham, and English man who spent four years hunting them on the plains of Texas, graphically details his experience. He came to America when a boy, determined to work his way out to the plains and become, if possible, the chief of a tribe of Indians. His experience with the savages near Fort Still changed this intention, and he went down into Texas and began to teach school. “In October, 1873,” he says, “I hunted myself in Jacksboro, Jack County, northern Texas. It is near Fort Richardson. I was out of employment, and living from hand to mouth. One day a party of Cowboys road in from the other side of the Brazos , and said buffalo were coming in from the north so sick that they were eating up the range. The country was black with them, and the boys were compelled to drive in the cattle. This news was confirmed by a herder named Browning, who drove through town with 800 cattle, cursing and swearing, and roaring at his luck generally. There were no professional buffalo hunters in the country, although the buffalo were so thick that Browning allowed he could kill from fifty to seventy-five a day. He made a contract with one McKibben, a merchant, to deliver 1000 hides within three months at $2 a piece, the value to be taken out in trade. Browning swore that he would kill them all within fifty miles of Jacksboro. He turned his cattle hands out on horseback, and sent out his wagons. There was not an expert among them. They sailed into the herd head first, using no judgment, and in less than three days had scared the buffalo so that they left the range. The net result was twenty or thirty hides. Browning returned to Jacksboro and threw up his contract in disgust. He drove his cattle out on the abandoned range and resumed the life of a herder.
One Shaw owned two ox teams that had been employed in grading the railroad from Dallas to Fort Worth. Work had given out and the teams were idle. Two men, Hawes and Frantz, also owned yolks of oxen that were eating off their heads. They clubbed in with Shaw, and arranged for a buffalo hunt. I had had considerable experience on the plains, and was employed by Shaw as a killer. Hawes in Frantz killed for themselves. Two men, named Putter and Davis also joined us. A band of Comanches were raiding the frontier, and we combined for natural protection. Three months provisions, a keg of whiskey and several hundred rounds of ammunition were thrown into the wagons. Armed with needle guns, we left Jacksboro on a bright sunny morning, and traveled due West. The country was well wooded until we reached Fort Belknap, a deserted military post. We kept a sharp lookout for the Comanches; for, just before we left Jacksboro, a man was killed and scalped across the creek from town, not 300 yards from Fort Richardson.
“After leaving the timber, we camped in an open country, fifteen miles from Fort Belknap and two miles from the Rio Brazos. That evening an old buffalo bull straggled into camp. The trouble was not in killing, but in eating him. He was so old that is hide was worthless. His flesh was as tough as shoe leather. The old fellow had been driven from the herd by the younger bulls, and was forging on his own hook. Wolves were on his track, and would soon have run him down.
EAGLE SPRING
“About the middle of the second day we encamped on the Millers Creek, a branch of the Rio Brazos. The grazing was good. There were no ranches within thirty miles. We saw small bunches of buffalo among the low hills. It was a good sign. Herds of deer, flocks of turkeys, and schools of fish promised and ample variety of food. Potter, Davis and myself rode out six miles toward the Brozos, and found immense herds of buffalo. We stopped at Eagle Spring, the other side of the River. This spring gushes from the riverbank, making a small gully. It is nearly level with the River. At this time the river was very low. Half the sand bars were above water. The spring got its name from a great nest built in the top of a cottonwood tree by a colony of Eagles. These birds began to tear up the carcasses of deer and buffalo before we could skin them. I finally loaded a carcass with strychnine and poisoned the whole colony.
“The water of the Brazos at this point,” said Graham, “was brackish and unpalatable. It was made so by the junction of the Salt Fork of the river, a few miles above. No matter how dry the season, the spring never failed. The banks of the river near it were trodden down, and we could see that herds of buffalo were drinking there every night. We rode out on the divide between the Wichita and the Brazos and found a thick net of buffalo paths leading toward the spring. We made a permanent camp, pitching our tent on the river sands to the left of the gully, so close that we could hear the buffalo come in at night, but not so close as to disturb them. Then we cleaned out the spring. The water bubbled up with redoubled force, and dotted the sand of the River with fresh pools. Before we found the spring we had killed from fifteen to twenty buffalo. Word was sent back to Hawes, and his Skinners were quickly at work. We tried to induce him to come over to our camp, but he allowed that rolling stones gathered no moss, and he thought the buffalo were thick enough on Millers Creek to pay him.
“We spent the first day in making pegs for stretching hides, putting up the tent, and gathering buffalo chips and driftwood for fire. The banks of the river were fringed with bushes, but aside from the lone cottonwood, there was no standing timber. We dug a fireplace in the bank, and prepared for business. Are oxen were bellied and hobbled, and turned loose on the nutritious grasses of the river bottoms. We ate broiled venison for supper. After pipes and coffee we turned in. An hour after word I heard a dashing and a splashing in the spring. A band of buffalo was pouring over the bank. I could hear their low murmur of satisfaction as they sucked up the freshwater. The bank was crumbling beneath their feet and falling to the sand. As we were camped to the leeward, the herd did not wind us. It was a cloudy night. I got up in my shirt tail, took my gun, and ran along the edge of the bank toward the spring. Dark masses of the animals were clustered on the white sands below me, drinking from the little pools of fresh water. They saw me, and scattered. Most of them scrambled up the path leading to the top of the bank, and others darted over the sands. As it was too dark to shoot with any degree of certainty. I returned to camp.
“The next morning, bright and early, we were at work. We found a herd feeding on the prairie within two miles of camp. I crawled on my hands and knees to leave word and began to pick them off. I shot several under the fore-shoulder, giving the ball a slight range forward. This is really the only infallibly vital spot. Greenhorns may riddle an old bull with bullets, and he will stand and shake his head as though bumblebees were buzzing around his ears, and never drop; but one bullet planted by a professional is worth more than a score sent from the gun of an amateur. Well, before noon we had killed twenty-seven . In the afternoon we skinned these and hauled the green hides to camp.
AMBUSHING THE HERDS
“Eagle Spring was our headquarters nearly two months. The country was ridged with sand hills covered with coarse grass affording a fair cover while crawling on the herds. Large bunches of the animals were ambushed. We hid ourselves under the banks of the river, and shot them down as they came for water. This was done so often that they became suspicious. They approached the bank, headed by an old bull, with the herd strung out behind him in Indian file. On reaching the edge of the bank, the bull looked carefully up and down the river to see if the coast was clear. If satisfied, he turned back to the file leaders, indicating that it was all right, and dashed over the bank. The file followed without hesitation. If, however, the bull’s suspicions were aroused, he gazed at the suspicious objects as though shouting his eyesight. Then he turned his head toward the herd, as though disliking the outlook. Satisfied, after another reconnaissance, that there were good grounds for alarm, he viciously whisked his tail. The herd understood the signal. There was an instant stampede. They scattered fan-like, stopping at a distance of two to three hundred yards. There they turned about, apparently to see if there was any cause for running at all, but invariably continued their retreat until miles away from the supposed danger.
“One day, “ continued Graham,” I was lying under the bank of the river when a herd of buffalo approached. Contrary to all precedent, they were led by frisky young calves, who broke over the bank without stopping to reconnoiter. Had I retained my original position; the whole bunch would have trampled over me. I lay in the long grass and saw what was coming. As I got to my feet this stream divided and swept to the right and left. Through the dust I saw an old cows head within 3 feet, and let her have it under the fore shoulder. The impetus with which she was moving was so great that she pitched dead upon the sands at the brink of the river, three rods away. A calf was the next victim. It screwed it’s tail as the bullet struck it and followed the cow to grass. I next blazed away at the ”spike” a three-year-old bull. The first shot was ineffectual. He ran up the River about 100 yards. I kept at his heels and brought him down with the second bullet. By this time the bunch was much scattered. Many animals crossed the river, and others ran down the stream and regained the bluffs below. It was after dark when the slain buffalo were skinned and the green pelts were staked to the ground.
AND INDIAN RAID
“At Eagle Springs, “ Graham said, “we took 475 hides. The killings, skinning, stretching and packing took up all our time. After the hides were sunned they were sometimes wet by rains. This gave us much trouble as to preserve them we were forced to overhaul and re-dry them. After December 20th Shaw, Welsh, Frantz and Potter loaded the wagons with dried hides and started for old Fort Belknap. The Fort was abandoned, but they meant to pile the skins in a ruined guardhouse, where was thought they would be safe and undercover. Davis and myself were left in camp with a horse and two mules.
“On the evening of the 23rd I killed a deer, taking the hide and hindquarters. The next day I saw the tracks of a wildcat around the carcass. I could see that he had enjoyed his meal. Than seen that he might return on the following evening I took cover and lay for him. Toward dusk I saw the cat snaking along the bank of the river, but, unfortunately, he discovered me at the same time and did not come within gunshot. On my return to camp I was spotted by four Indians, who were hidden by the low sand hills. At all events that night the horse and mules were unhobbled and stolen. The sands were covered with moccasin tracks. We trace them up and found where the Indians had lain behind the sand hills and watched my wildcat venture. Our tent open toward the river, and a wagon covered the entrance. This was fortunate, for had the situation been different the savages might have shot us while we lay in our blankets. We followed their trail to the Wichita, many miles away, but never recovered the stock.
THREE INFURIATED BULL’S
“A funny incident occurred a few days before the mules were stolen. I had been out among the sand hills, and had planted seven bullets in an old bull. He was a tough old fellow, but was finally brought to his knees. I thought he would surely die, and wasted no more ammunition. On returning to camp I told Davis where he lay, and he and Welsh said that they would take his hide early in the morning. That night the wolves scented the old fellow’s blood, and made an assault on him. He fought like a tiger, and would have gone under had not two other bulls come to the rescue. All night long they kept the wolves at bay. In the morning Welsh and Davis went out to look for the wounded bull. I was going up the River, but pointed near where he lay, and told them they would find him in a little hollow near the sand hills. Welsh took his needle gun and went on foot, and Davis followed, mounted on a mule, taking a swingle, or whiffletree, to drag the green hide back to camp. On nearing the hollow Welsh saw the three buffalo lying down, and said to Davis: “why, he’s wounded three instead of one, and left us to finish them.” Davis stood up in his saddle, looked at them. “I don’t think he’s hurt any of them.” he said. “Johnny, just try ‘em.’ Welsh crept toward the trio. Two of the Bulls got to their feet, and stretched themselves. They gazed at him in astonishment, and began to paw the ground and shake their heads. Welsh dropped on one knee and blazed away. He probably miss them, for infuriated by the assaults of the wolves, they raised their tails, lowered their heads, and with bloodshot eyes charged upon him. He saw them coming in after a sharp raise went into a buffalo wallow like a prairie dog. The bull then went for Davis. He had scented danger, and headed the mule towards camp. The beast however, was fat and lazy, and did not seem to take in this situation. Davis pounded him with the whiffletree until the blows resounded over the prairie, but could get no head of steam. “Shoot at ‘em, Johnny !’ he shouted. “Shoot at ‘em, but Johnny lay in the wallow, shaking with merciment, and could not shoot. Seen that there was a slim chance for reaching camp, Davis headed his mule for a mesquite tree, fancy and he could find a shelter among its thorns. The slow lope of the mule brought the maddened bulls nearer. Davis finally jumped from the saddle and ran for the tree. He went up the trunk like a squirrel, and had barely perched himself on a top limb before the bulls dashed underneath in pursuit of the mule. Like Davis, the mule took good care of himself, and reached camp and safety.”
A POISONING MATCH
A few days afterward the party returned from Fort Belknap. They were chagrined at the loss of the mules. Only two horses were left. Shaw in Davis went back to Millers Creek and camped with Hawes. Potter, Welsh, Frantz and Graham went across to the big Wichita poisoning wolves, and met with moderate success. The country was seamed with canons and dotted with cedars. Winter was at hand and the weather was becoming cold. The most interesting incident was a poisoning match between Frantz and Graham. One day each killed the buffalo. A dispute arose concerning their merits as poisoners. Frantz held that if the strychnine was placed in a certain part of the carcass it would be more effectual. Graham disagreed with him. Each agreed to Dr. a carcass in his own way, and a pile of Wolf skins was staked on the result. Graham spread a small bottle of the poison upon those parts of the carcass first eaten by wolves, and Frantz carried out his peculiar theory. Both traps were well faded. In the morning the bodies of nine gray wolves laid near Gramps trap, and thirteen were found by Frantz, and he took the pile of pelts.
On their return to the Brazos they found an immense herd of, buffalo on the divide between that river and the Wichita. To use the words of one of the party, “it seemed as though all the buffalo on the plains had emigrated to Texas.” The paths were innumerable. Every green thing had been devoured, and that there was no grazing for their oxen. They were forced to return to Millers Creek, where they joined Shaw and Davis. Hawes had taken over 300 hides, and gone into camp 5 miles further up the creek. The country was black with bison. The men hunted three weeks longer and then flour ran short and the weather became bad. They returned to Jacksboro, after nearly 4 months absence. Over 1200 buffalo, thirty-eight deer, fifty-two wolves and twenty-seven coyotes had been killed and skinned, and one wild horse captured.
THE MARKET FOR BUFFALO MEAT
Graham says that he sold 100 buffalo hides at Sherman for $140. This was his first hunt. On the following where he went up into the Cedar Mountains, about sixty miles southwest of Fort Griffin, and “killed for meat.” The meat was cured and afterwards sold in Dallas. Only the hams are taken. The rest of the carcasses is left to the wolves and ravens. The hams, when cut up and thoroughly cured, will not average more than eighty pounds apiece. In two months Graham killed and salted down hundred 113 buffalo. He hunted the beast up to the winter of 1877. Long before that the brawny Missouri and Kansas professionals had swept down into the country with their “prairie shooters.” Graham says the slaughter was terrifle. Long, of Fort Griffin, killed 3000 in one winter, and big Jim White, of Kansas, 800 in a month. Jim is said to have killed thirty-one buffalo in thirty-two consecutive shots. All these beast were killed for their hides. The flesh, horns and hoofs were wasted. Thousands of tons of meat as good as beef rotted on the prairies while hundreds of persons were starving in Eastern cities. “Enough was wasted,” said Graham, “to have made the siege of Paris as long as the siege of Troy.”
THE HIDE HUNTER
Some of the buffalo hunters own many teams and pay their hunters by the month, or allow them a percentage of the profits. The killer commands the highest price, the Skinners and the camp followers ranging next in pay. The killer rides ahead on the pony, with rifle across the pommel of his saddle. His belt is filled with cartridges, which he allows no one to load but himself. The Skinners follow in a wagon. When the herd is sighted, the killer rides as near as possible, taking advantage of the wind in any inequalities of ground. After tying his pony to a mesquite bush, he drops upon his knees and begins to crawl upon the herd. Once within rifle shot, he lies facedown word, and places two rest-sticks , something like and X on the ground. Over the sticks he sights his game. After the first shot the herd generally run at least a hundred yards. Then they turned about and watch the struggles of the dying buffalo. If the killer keeps cover, the herd may come back and paw around the dead body, as cattle do when they smell blood. The killer always tries to shoot the animals likely to lead the herd away. This is what is termed “holding the herd.” It requires great experience. When the leaders fall, the herd, seeing their bodies on the ground, frequently lie down among them, and stay there until stampeded.
The killers work completed, he signals for the wagons to come up, and the Skinners draw their knives. Two ropes attached to the axles, trail behind the wagon. Each terminates in a loop. The loops are placed over a fore and hind leg, the team is started, and the dead animal turned on its back. It is held in this position by scotching the wagon. The Skinners roll up their sleeves and go to work. The hide is peeled from the belly by a man on each side. Each Skinner carries two knives, one for skinning and the other for ripping. The knives are frequently sharpened. A grindstone is usually carried in the wagon. After the hide is removed it is thrown into the wagon, and the Skinners move on from carcass to carcass, until the “whole stand,” as it is called, is skinned.
HOW THE HIDES ARE CURED
When taken to camp the pelts are laid in rows in a place known as “the hide yard.” They are spread out flesh side up, and holes are cut near the edges within acts or Tomahawk. If not pressed for time a knife may be used. One of the party that goes around with an arm full of pegs, and distributes them on the hides. He averages about 16 pegs to the hide. The skins are next stretched in the pegs driven into the ground. The hides remained there until they become as hard as flint. They are then taken up and sunned. After a day or two they are cramped or folded, flesh side in, like the leaves of a book. Next they are piled readily for market. Hides are taken in summer are sprinkled with poison to keep the bugs out of them. Thousands of hides are spoiled by the rains. Frequently the wolves get at them and tear them to pieces. Some hunters kill the animals all the year round and even slaughtering the cows with calf. Others condemned this practice, and will not associate with those who follow it. There are many professional terms. A ‘cripple” is a buffalo that has been wounded and is after word discovered and killed .A ‘spike” is a young bull. The best hides are tanned and reserved for robes. Others are made into leather. The coarser ones are turned into harness, being too porous for shoes.
THE MEAT HUNTERS
Those who hunt the bison for his meat are a class by themselves. A hole like a grave is dug in the ground and a hide placed there in with the fur toward the earth. The rim of the hide is staked to the edge of the grave, and makes a leather vat. The hams, are cut into three chunks and thrown into the vat. They are sprinkled with salt and seasoned with saltpeter. The vat is then covered within a stiff hide and the meat thus protected from the sun. Tongues are pickled in a similar way. After the meat is thoroughly soaked it is taken out of the vat and cut into smooth pieces. These pieces are strung on bear grass and hung in a rude smokehouse covered with hides. The meat can not be smoked too much. It cures according to the weather. Sometimes it is in the smokehouse two months before it is marketable. It finds a ready sale in the frontier towns, and is frequently sold as far South as New Orleans. It is very palatable.
“Half the fun in killing buffalo,” said Graham, “is in observing their curious actions. I have stuck up a hat and seen a whole herd gather around it, and stare at it for hours. If one animal gets bogged, a half-dozen others are pretty sure to fall into the trap. Anything will stampede them. The stupidity is most remarkable . As stupid as a buffalo” is a common expression among herders. The little calves are more suspicious than their parents. Bulls have shorter tales than cows. There’d tales are bad fly brushes, for they could not hit a fly in a week.”
When the fleshy side of the green hide is exposed to the sun, the skin becomes as hard as iron. Four years ago a party of Texas cow-boys caught a horse thief on the border of the Indian territory. As there was no tree handy on which to hang him, they sewed him up in a green buffalo hide and left it on the plains, under the burning sun. A year after word the hide was found. The skeleton rattled within it as to dried peas in a pod. It was cut open within acts, and the remains of the unfortunate for speed were identified by the clothes.
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They were shot for their hides, bones and anything else of value but I've yet to confirm they were shot to starve out the natives.

but that's the reason they were shot, to starve out the natives....at least that's what we learned in school.

I wonder how many pure bed bison still exist?

In school we were taught it was a combination of things, mainly predation/slaughter by the Honkies

I wonder how many pure bed bison still exist?

For the unpure lines, what were they crossed with?

Read American Buffalo by Steven Rinella. It addresses a lot of these questions and tells you where the research came from. Very informative. Dan Flores' American Serengeti is also very good. Flores was one of the first academics to suggest that native Americans slaughtered buffalo to buy rifles and other goods from white traders.

Both should be required reading in jr high. Pretty much sums up American Buffalo

The problem with history is it's just as biased as the person who writes it down, just as truthful and the same goes with those who pass it on.

No doubt Indians killed their share of buffalo for trade.
But it is unlikely that whites killed them to "starve out" the Indians. At the time the buffalo where nearly wiped out, late 1800's, Indian problems for the most part no longer existed.
Also the late 1800s made for the taming of The Frontier. The West had been fairly well fenced off at this time and reduced the size of buffaloes turf. What was a free range from Mexico to Alaska no longer existed. Buffaloes had been fenced in.

I often wounder what North America would be like now had Europeans not settled it.

Someone else would have.

It’s been hypothesised that even with out European settlement, that the simple re-introduction of the horse by Spaniards would of caused the extinction as the natives barter market with each other grew.

I don’t know about that. I saw a film where the Sioux folded ‘em up on the spot with just a couple arrows. Not a one limped away. Some gringo even leveled one with an offhand shot from his lever gun, saving a young brave. There was quite a celebration, afterwards, with raw buffalo liver shared by all, as was their custom, apparently. The whole thing seemed pretty accurate, to me. You should check it out.

The way those buffaloes went down makes me wonder if the arrow shafts were 10mm in diameter, thereby killing them quicker and deader.

My cousin found correspondance between my family's early settlers in Weiland Texas back to kin in Tennessee they said that there were deer and buffalo in abundance.around 1850's. Do you think this was so?

So true

Writers like to embellish to makes their stories grandeur for fame and fortune, generational story tellers are just that story tellers and we all know how facts and information gets distorted from one teller of the story to the next.

Do ou think the Indians would have preferred Mathews or bowtech?

Read American Buffalo by Steven Rinella. It addresses a lot of these questions and tells you where the research came from. Very informative. Dan Flores' American Serengeti is also very good. Flores was one of the first academics to suggest that native Americans slaughtered buffalo to buy rifles and other goods from white traders.

I have read both books and highly recommend both as well. Flores is also occasionally on Rinella's Meateater podcast as well and is quite informative.

Well lets start with the first part referencing 30 to 60 million Buffalo. That number has no validity at all, how could it?

They were shot for their hides, bones and anything else of value but I've yet to confirm they were shot to starve out the natives.

The native Americans had no role in the disappearance of the bison from 1865-1880. I’m not saying they were perfect stewards of them or saints or anything else. But they were not the reason for their demise.

The timing alone would tell anyone that. They were fine for tens of thousands of years with the natives and then -bam- they were gone in 15 years because of them?

Uhhhh, no.

IDK about today, but in my day there were certainly no “white guilt” issues in my textbooks. The Founders, Texas Revolutionaries, and Confederates were only about a half-step below Jesus.

I read Rinella's book recently and am still working my way through Flores's. Flores's book is an interesting read, even though I disagree with a lot of his stances, especially considering feral horse herds. He's on the side that feral horse herds should be allowed to roam the plains because evolutionary/fossil evidence suggests that horses evolved in North America and migrated to Europe. Using that same train of thought, though, you could argue that cave bears and steppe lions should be reintroduced, should you be able to clone one from fossilized DNA. Horses went extinct in North America for a reason; reintroduction is an anthropological influence on the ecosystem. While we do that all the time, doing so and claiming it's the restoration of the natural order is contradictory.

That's all off-topic, sorry, but yes they're very interesting books worth reading. I'm a young world theorist, and don't believe in speciation, which much of the book deals with, but there's lots in there worth reading. Flores certainly let his personal views flavor the text, but its his book to do with as he pleases and there's nothing wrong with that. Just because I don't agree with it doesn't mean I don't enjoy reading it!

I don’t feel like arguing with you, so change “no” to “insignificant” or “infinitesimal” if you like.

I said large part of the buffalo trade not insignificant or infinitesimal. Romance if you want.

100% same page as you. Although short nose bears would be cool in LA
Camels where once native to North America also. I personally think once a species is gone from US it’s gone. Wolves, should of stayed gone. Wild horse, shot them, wild burro shot them, any invasive species on public land shot them.

I know I can’t be right on anything BOBO, but Native Americans were not responsible for the extirpation of the American Bison. Go off on any tangent you want, it will not change that fact.
P.S. They were never a “large” part of the trade.
P.S.S. Who do you think they were “trading” with/selling them to? Hint: white men. It was our market, not theirs.

100% same page as you. Although short nose bears would be cool in LA
Camels where once native to North America also. I personally think once a species is gone from US it’s gone. Wolves, should of stayed gone. Wild horse, shot them, wild burro shot them, any invasive species on public land shot them.

I’m not romanticizing anything. I’m staying on topic - the topic is who is responsible for the near-extinction of the American Bison.

As usual, you are now off on stuff like there being some sort of buffalo trade before Europeans and macaws
in New Mexico - neither of which has jack to do with the subject. Obviously, that trade before white men came along did not drive them to the brink of extinction or have any significant impact on their populations.

Seriously you are dense, Almost gone is not gone but Gone is gone, My view didn’t mention eradicating a native species. You can’t bring back species once it’s gown. If you bring in a non native species from another continent or country you are playing with fire.

The original Yellowstone wolf is GONE, thus the introduction of a debatable sub species that 30% bigger that’s playing with fire(example-Hydatid Disease/Echinococcus granulosus )

The current wild burros and wild horses are non native sub species, they should be gone from the public landscape.

Again You brought up a romanticized view that Native Indians had no part(and later changed to very little) part in the killing of bison from North America landscape... that’s false

[quote=BOBO the Clown]

Agree with all but the wolves. Though the white man played a role in the demise of the Buffalo mainly for monetary reasons, the wolf was targeted for trade and eradication to protect introduced live stock, this created a big void in the predator prey and balance of other smaller predators.

Many of the game animals in the U.S. today are not the same subspecies that were native to their areas. Deer, elk, sheep, pronghorn, mountain goat.
Many of the WTs we hunt in TX are re-stocks from different areas. A lot of mine were from KS.
We would all be sucking wind for hunting under your theory if “once it’s gone, keep it gone.”

White man and Native Indians played a role for monetary reasons.

The Mexican wolf should of been recovered by all means, as it is in NM, AZ and MX Now the introduction into Yellowstone should of not happened. Big void always gets filled if allowed to be fill. Yellowstone NP was allowed to get to 17k elk. It could of easy been brought down to and/ or kept at post Wolf numbers(4K) by hunting

No, I don’t.

I find your inability to stay on topic, make sweeping generalizations, and then try to dig yourself out of holes by going off down Alice’s rabbit hole with all sorts of strange non-topical crap hilarious too.

You do it constantly.

You’re “once it’s gone, it should stay gone” broadside is silly, and the antithesis of the entire North American conservation model you claim to adhere to. You obviously have not a clue about what wildlife conservation is, much less support it.

100% same page as you. Although short nose bears would be cool in LA
Camels where once native to North America also. I personally think once a species is gone from US it’s gone. Wolves, should of stayed gone. Wild horse, shot them, wild burro shot them, any invasive species on public land shot them.

Who do you think introduced money into the equation?

Your second paragraph has nothing to do with the topic.

First of all this isn’t an interjection to you. I was committing on two books and one of the authors view just like another poster. you have read neither so you have no comment, so you are doing exactly what you claim I’m doing. You

But to humor you If it’s gone you can’t bring it back. It’s GONE!! Nothing to bring back. It’s extinct.

If elk where extinct from North America it’s a bad idea to introduce Red stag cuz they share DNA.

If Dall sheep are gone you don’t replace them with Argali.

I can go on. Can Whitetails compete with Axis breeding habitats, do axis deer impact native flora same as a Whitetail? What about Aoudads vs Desert Bighorns.

If interior grizzlies went extinct should of we just imported a bunch of Kodiak Bears to Montana? Both Grizzlies

Again Indians had a barter system before Europeans, thus why a South America bird is in NM...

Sorry stub I’m not allowed to respond to you in conversation per NP

Complete changing the subject dodge. You do it all the time.

Wrong on something? Adopt a different argument and act like that’s what you said to start with.

[quote=BOBO the Clown]

Stub’s “monetary reasons” statement was in reference to the buffalo. It’s right up there. ^^^^^

And now to the ad hominems - the final step. I know I cannot respond at this point. Good night.

Seriously you are dense, Almost gone is not gone but Gone is gone, My view didn’t mention eradicating a native species. You can’t bring back species once it’s gown. If you bring in a non native species from another continent or country you are playing with fire.

The original Yellowstone wolf is GONE, thus the introduction of a debatable sub species that 30% bigger that’s playing with fire(example-Hydatid Disease/Echinococcus granulosus )

The current wild burros and wild horses are non native sub species, they should be gone from the public landscape.

And you can't argue with the big man...

I have my moments, obviously I am not the only one. Gray wolves were the indigenous wolves of Yellowstone and that was what was captured and reintroduced from the same genus out of Canada, so what is your dense point?

As a matter of fact the reintroduction has helped balance the ecosystem!

Please share with all where you come up with a Hybrid that is 30% bigger??

There's so much controversy from all sides about that subject that it's impossible to sort out any facts. Everyone can cite some study backing up their claims.

Notions that "pre-capitalist" Indians lived in harmony with nature-especially the buffalo-are thoroughly exploded in the new works by these anthropologists and historians. Indians used the tools at their disposal, mostly fire and cunning, to hunt buffalo. "Box burning," a common tactic, involved setting simultaneous fires on all four sides of a herd. The French word "Brulé," or "burnt," referred to the Sicangu ("burnt thigh") Sioux division whose survivors of hunting fires were burned on the legs. Charles McKenzie, traveling the plains in 1804, observed entire herds charred from Indian fires. Another favored hunting tactic, the "buffalo jump," involved luring a herd after an Indian dressed in a buffalo skin. At a full run, the brave led the herd to a cliff, where he leapt to a small ledge while the buffalo careened over the edge to their deaths. Either of these methods led to horrible waste and inefficient use of resources.

The ultimate problem, however, was lack of property rights. One trader observed that the moving habits of the Plains Indians "prevent the accumulation of much baggage. . . . Thus personal property cannot be acquired to any amount."2 Lacking the ability to store a surplus, the Indians acquired none. While their communal heritage encouraged them to band together in hard times, the lack of surplus meat or robes meant that they only shared scarcity. A powerful myth emerged-one repeated in many textbooks-that the Indians "used every part of the buffalo," implying that the Plains Indians used all the buffalo they killed. That was not the case. Estimates made in the 1850s suggest that Indians harvested about 450,000 animals a year, and some think the figure was far higher than that. After stripping the best meat and some useful parts, the Indians left the remainder to rot. The stench permeated the prairie for miles, and many a pioneer came across acres of bones from buffalo killed by the Indians before they moved on.

Westward expansion of whites and trade between whites and Indians produced two significant changes, one more destructive than the other. The first-already mentioned-was that Indians shifted from a farming to a nomadic, hunting lifestyle. More important, as American settlers pushed west, both the Indians and the buffalo constituted an impediment to further expansion. A thriving buffalo-hide trade already existed with Indian hunters, but by the 1860s, a new wave of white hunters, using modern firearms and industrial processing methods vastly expanded the slaughter of the bison. This had three purposes: (1) it fed railroad workers and some western markets; (2) it continued to provide robes and hides to tanneries; and (3) it provided a way to get rid of the Indian by eliminating his food supply.

There's so much controversy from all sides about that subject that it's impossible to sort out any facts. Everyone can cite some study backing up their claims.

Yes. And only the post-1860 events in the final paragraph that “vastly expanded the slaughter” led to their virtual disappearance.

Replacing inland grizzlies with Kodiaks is an interesting idea. It's not necessary because inland grizzlies aren't extinct and they already occupy most of their remaining habitat. The reason I think it's relevant is because a similar idea has been proposed before. A few years ago, several groups lobbied for introducing grizzlies from the GYE into some of the remaining habitat of the extinct Mexican grizzly bear range in the Southwest.

If it were not for locals shooting all of them onsite, I think it would work. The Gila/Mogollon complex hasn't changed much in the last 70 since grizzlies lived there. I think it would still support a few grizzlies, I don't think it ever supported a high density of grizzlies.

The Mexican grizzlies were smaller and more adapted to dry climates than the GYE grizzlies. That was a point that was emphasized by opponents of the reintroduction. That is true but the same can be said of the elk in the area. That region was Merriam's elk territory until the 20th century. Merriam's elk were extinct in the early 20th century and Rocky Mountain elk from Yellowstone were reintroduced and they have thrived every since.

Of course! Obviously the first few million had nothing to do with it.

The whiteman didn’t single handly go out and kill all the buffalos as it has been stated on here, it was a joint effort.

That was well on it's way before the white man got involved, he just had better weapons. The Paleo Indians of the America's didn't disappear they're just distant relatives of today's tribes yet many of the species they hunted are long gone. Natives hunted for results and what ever got the best results seemed to be the method of choice. Were I to run 25 hunter across my place in a drive with hunters on the other end I could probably clean my place of deer in short order. Driving animals is a very efficient way of putting large amounts of meat on the table with little effort. When you consider the size of the tribes and the resources needed to keep them alive, it's easy to imagine more efficient methods of collection. As suggested in the link. Killing more than you could actually eat was probably a common reality. No refrigerators or food banks back then, take what you could consume and carry and leave the rest.

The problem with these threads is folks go off-topic so easily. The topic is who caused them to almost go extinct? The answer is: post Civil War slaughter of them by white men. That’s it.

The question is: “What caused them to almost go extinct?”

You saying that's it doesn't make it the last word, it just means you've convinced yourself it is. Kinda like saying we have two cows, you eat the first one and I eat the second then you claim I'm the reason we're out of cow. Yep your hands are clean in your mind.

It’s not impossible to sort out facts from speculation.

Manifest Destiny/westward expansion of white America almost wiped out the American Bison = Fact.
The final blows that wiped out tens of millions of them took place over a short 20 year period = Fact.

That Indians would have eventually wiped them out anyway because they had horses (introduced by outsiders and in widespread use for two centuries before the bison’s extirpation) = Useless, unsupported and almost certainly wrong. Pure speculation-the opposite of fact.

Without white men there would have been no guns, no railroads, no commercial markets, none of the huge upheavals/changes brought by European influx.

Talk about “romanticizing” to assuage guilt, deny reality, change the subject, whatever - that’s the very definition of it.

I have my moments, obviously I am not the only one. Gray wolves were the indigenous wolves of Yellowstone and that was what was captured and reintroduced from the same genus out of Canada, so what is your dense point?

As a matter of fact the reintroduction has helped balance the ecosystem!

Please share with all where you come up with a Hybrid that is 30% bigger??

Bison, red wolf, Mexican wolf, passenger pigeon, elk, pronghorn, deer, mountain sheep, wolves, grizzlies, mountain goat - in the Lower 48 these were extirpated, almost all brought to the brink of disappearance or, at the very least, greatly reduced in population by the turn of the 20th century or not long thereafter.

This was not done by Native Americans. No one even seriously argues the point.

In summary:

People really can screw up nature.

Yes, and it will get worse. 250 million and expanding.

I didn’t say hybrid I said the Canadian wolves used to populate Yellowstone where 30% larger, then what was once Native. We had three options Minnesota wolves or regrow Mexican greys or use wolves out of Canada. Jasper NP wolves where used,

Minnesota Wolves where closet in size, but apparently they didn’t know how to kill elk.

In the end to get ES and introduction approval they concluded that the Jasper wolves where same sub species and used Bergmann's rule to get it pushed through even though the Minnesota wolves where closer size Etc.

The prey/predator balance is a joke. Yellowstone is a terrible example of utopia. Wolves numbers are down in the park as they moved out to chase more elk, and bison numbers are closely getting to beyond carrying capacity. Park officials have to cull between 600 to 900 bison. Prey/predator balance...

Seriously you are dense, Almost gone is not gone but Gone is gone, My view didn’t mention eradicating a native species. You can’t bring back species once it’s gown. If you bring in a non native species from another continent or country you are playing with fire.

The original Yellowstone wolf is GONE, thus the introduction of a debatable sub species that 30% bigger that’s playing with fire(example-Hydatid Disease/Echinococcus granulosus )

The current wild burros and wild horses are non native sub species, they should be gone from the public landscape.

A sub species is not a hybrid, and I’m pretty sure he was calling Nog dense, not you, Stub.

Thanks Sneaky, like I said in the other comment, I have my moments
And I corrected myself on that statement, he mentioned Hydatid Disease and Hybrid jumped into my out of wack processor

I havent researched this much because I too was taught white man killed them all.

While I believe white man is responsible, I dont not believe it was intentional or that they were wiped out with firearms.

Last January I hunted with a friend in Wyoming. His dad is a retired Sargeant Major and big history buff. Ge has researched this for years.

Some of his points was the mat doesnt add up. He says the estimated buffalo killed doesnt come close to population estimates.

He also points out that the buffalo disappearnce across country coincided with cattle drives through those areas.

He mentions huge boneyards that have been searched, and no evidence of animals being shot.

From his research he believes it was the spread of tick fever from the cattle.

Was some pretty interesting discussions. Not.sure if he is 100% accurate, but he had references with numbers that bavked his claims.

No body has but many have stated they sure helped.

By 1880 Indians had assimilated into United States Of America Culture with many assimilating well before that.

Montana had a huntable population of Grizzlies the day they where placed on ESA protection in the 90’s.

last grizzly in CO was 1979 killed 10 miles from my old cabin...... southern Ute killed them off thier reservation well before that.

I can still remember seeing Mexican Wolves at Ghost ranch in NM in the 80’s, ironically I’m headed as I type to compete against thier descendants. Ironically not one reintroduced Mexican Wolf came from Reservation Land.

Stub= good people
NP= dense

Final pack run through before I hit trail head. You men be good.

Like him or not, NG is not dense.

Him and Stub are both good dudes.

I don’t expect the two of you to ever get along, but I do believe you are both decent, sharp fellas with the best interests of hunting in mind.

The OP was apologetic for not using the word bison, but he needn't be. People seem to think bison was a native American term but it isn't. Both buffalo and bison come from the ancient Greek and Roman words for "wild ox".

Highly probable screw worms/Whitetails, Pneumonia/Sheep, Etc

I'll confess, I'm not sorry.

I'll say things like Buffalo and could care less and ain't and my 4th grade English teacher can kiss off

I didn't mean that , Mrs. Felt was a real nice lady

https://www.fws.gov/bisonrange/timeline.htm

Is it possible that many of those bones were from animals that were not shot to death?

An estimated 2 million were killed, based on what population?

I see a lot of MLD programs that issue tags based on 30% of the population.

I see a lot of numbers thrown around like 60-80 million population and that is compared with total amount of animals killed. Were the animals not still reproducing? So how many offspring did those 60-80 million buffalo produce over the decades in question?

Not saying hunters didn't play a part in reducing their numbers, but I do believe there were other factors that lead to their demise.

To get your answers you need to read the complete article at the link I posted.

White man killed them. They didn't vanish after we showed up by coincidence. Maybe there wasn't 60 million bullets available during that time all at once but people can make a very large impact if just given some time. Think outside the box a little and more of a timeline rather than in an instant.

Did white man cause the buffalo disappearance? Yes, I don't think anyone is arguing that.

Did white man wipe them out by shooting them 1 at a time? I seriously doubt that.

White man killed them. They didn't vanish after we showed up by coincidence. Maybe there wasn't 60 million bullets available during that time all at once but people can make a very large impact if just given some time. Think outside the box a little and more of a timeline rather than in an instant.

“new indigenous” is an oxymoron.

“new indigenous” is an oxymoron.

Actually yes, they probably did kill the majority of them 1 at a time over a length of time. Same with several other species that were over hunted, combined with other factors.

So do you believe disease played no part?

How do you explain the huge piles of remains that were investigated that showed no evidence of ever having been shot?

Disease will wreak havoc at far greater rates than man with a gun.