yalls opinion of a long term lease idea for family ranch.

Hi yall, i want to start off by saying that this is clearly an idea only.

We have 850 ac HF ranch with lodge in Jim Hogg, about 45 min south of hebbronville. Some members have hunted oryx with me there. It has lots of potential to be a fantastic place.

I want to see if there is any interest or input pros and cons for this idea. Ranch was primarily used for exotics with some non native whitetail genetics brought in. There is low number of wt for the place. What i propose is a long term 7yr to 10yr minimum lease where a small group of hunters that hunt together are given 1 oryx every year we have a sustainable herd and half the lease money goes toward stocking the ranch with quality wt, not record deer but very respectable wt genetics. Obviously all this would be spelled out clear as day in contract.

Its kinda like leasing a ranch in my head. There would be specific management practices in place that would ensure highest chance for establishing a solid herd of wt.

I know some of yalls initial inpression might be im trying to get something on someone elses dime, but thats why im asking for yalls opinion. Thats not what im trying to do. What could i add or take away from the idea that would be a win win for the family and potential lessees. Im not 100% sure its a good idea, just a thought that came to me.

Thanks for your time!

I think the idea has some promise to it. Just to clarify:

-The lease members would each get 1 oryx per year, in addition to being able to hunt Whitetail (typical allotment: a couple does, 1 cull, 1 Trophy)?

-Then, you would use some of the lease money to bring in additional deer to the ranch that the hunters would not hunt?

I don't think there is anything wrong with using lease revenue to try to improve the ranch. If done right it is a win-win for all sides.

Before you launched it I would think through how many actual deer you will want harvested each year, and how many guns you want taking them. Also think through what type of access the lease hunters would have to the lodge and house.

I think its workable, with a few tweaks, but the real concern I would have is signing a 7 - 10 year lease with folks you do not know....and finding folks that do not know you that are willing to sign a 7 - 10 year lease. All the folks that I know with long term leases (both on the landowner and hunter sides) only went long term after several years of annual leases, to build trust and make sure everyone was playing nice together.

Thanks txag, yes each lessee would get 1 oryx. Might be a cow might be a bull depending on ratio and maturity. By my count this is sustainabke for 3-4 hunters for 4-5 years. There are also some fallow and aoudad which can be substituted. Then a break to let mature oryx numbers build back up. the wt i see 1 mature shooter and 1 doe, with culls wide open to ensure money invested in herd isnt getting wasted/diluted by non favorable genetics. Possibly more than 1 buck and 1 doe as things are evaluated further. Ideally, my goal is for lessees and family to work together to have year in year out 1 trophy 160+, 1 mgmt 120-, and tag out on does and spikes. Full disclosure biggest bucks are probably 140ish. Now that the ranch land has been divided, and only my immediate family has access or say in the ranch the poor management practices have ceased to stop. The lodge sleeps 10, and all other amenities will be for the hunters, then family 2nd. Also, myself and 1 other family member who are avid hunters would frequent but only to help culling and do maintenance, we'd share a blind. I view this as a business and dont want to jeopardize a win win relationship with the right lessees. family only uses it sparingly for a few select family holiday get togethers all out of season like easter is a major one. Yes, the wt brought in will be on the table to shoot but not immediately, as i would like those genetics to reach every corner of the ranch, hence the long term deal. Ideally i would like staggered age ranges, so that the lessees can see a return on investment as quickly as possible. I want to avoid a scenario where someone says "ok in 5 years im off and i just wasted my time, effort, and money." I want where family and lessees have equitable skin in the game.

I conpletely agree its tough having trust go both ways, but there would be monetary penalties both ways to ensure everyone stayed inline. Maybe thats a little optimistic, but i think there are some great people out there on this forum, id take a chance like this with.

Who would pay for the protein if it is required to be fed? Who would put it out? Who pays the utilities on the lodge? Year round usage? Bird hunting? Any cattle on the place? Road maintenance? Who sets harvest quotas and call what buck a cull/management/trophy? I have seen a few place do this and it work out great. Get the wrong group and it is a total train wreck. I met 2 guys who were from Houston looking for something like this.

I go down there alot and the other family member that would hunt lives 45 min away. So we would help out as much as possible feeding and keep the maintenance up. Utilities would be paid by us. Yes year round usage, but there are a couple of out of season holidays where entire family meets at ranch. Feed/protein hunters except for the one family blind. Harvest quotas and sizes would be set by me but i want input from hunters so that things dont get crossways. Dove would be included, and id consider quail, but i dont want that to distract from main goal of bettering wt herd. Id need references like any other land owner from previous land owners. And id let prospective hunters tour the place for the weekend. There is about 15-20 head of cattle for ag exemption. Also if one of these guys had a dream of breeding, pens and water are already in place close to lodge, and that would be on the table too.

I don't know how many people are going to want to take an oryx every year for 7-10 years. I think you'd be better off just selling oryx hunts and using that money to fund your WT initiative. I don't think mixing lease hunters and family is a good idea, either. Either lease it out with your restrictions and leave family out of it, or keep it for the family and just do periodic hunts/weekend hunts that you have control over.

You have some very good points there.

This^^^^

Amen. typical statement "hunter #1-I'm sorta POed at that Jorge character, let's his nephew come in and shoot the biggest buck on the place. hunter #2-yeah, and when we were here two weeks ago those nieces had some friends a drinking and shooting all night long" My suggestion might include going back to a post that was running about 2-4 months ago about what upset hunters about other hunters and land owners. Read that and be prepared to eliminate all complaints for a 7-10 year lease.

oryx wouldnt be taken for 7-10 year unless it was wanted, its there to add value. A break from oryx would happen at year 4 or 5 to let younger oryx reach maturity. As it stands there is a maturity gap of about 3 yrs in the herd. There are other exotics on the ranch as well that would be on the table. I do think wt will always be the main item on a hunters year in year out list, especially here in tx.

I do see the validity and concern mixing family and hunters, hence the contractual recourse and stiff penalties would be implemented to both parties for breaking contractual stipulations.

I guess im being on the side of overly optimistic of the scenario. What i envision is a out of the box situation. Where lessees who dont have the means or desire to go buy their own acreage and invest in improving genetics could form a partnership with an individual that has acreage and wants to achieve like results.

Thank you fellas, Yall bring up some very good points and major obstacles from the other side of the table with objectivity.

I would not lease it for long term the first year, but more of a year to year to feel each other out and to iron on details of what will work like posted above. I would not think you will get the money you can for the long term lease with family involved in the hunting inside the HF. I have seen many deal and long term deal go south when family is allowed to hunt on the same lease as the lease hunters.

^^^ Once again, Amen

So yall think a $5k recourse clause is insufficient for an infraction of contract?

1) I may have missed it but what annual price are you looking at....I would base it on some percentage of that.

2) I think this could be a good deal for the right people....finding the right people is gonna be the trick. You might even consider a "corporate" lease where a company can bring in high-end customers to relax/hunt....this would give you a situation where company executives can entertain and where the money might be better.....that would address the annual oryx issue....contracts should be more enforceable against a company vs. a group of individuals....something to think about.....

Thanks snake thats good food for thought.

Why would I sign a long lease? Is your rate below average? What happens if I get laid off? What happens if someone turns into a jerk?

If it's a good deal people will stay year over year

I would advise against a corporate lease. I've guided for several and when you get customers out that don't hunt at all but "want to try it" they'll kill anything that walks up. You can explain all the game management you want to but they'll pull the trigger every time on a 2 1/2 year old 10 point. They're customers, what're you going to say. When I was in high school many years ago I put hunters out on a 100K acre place in Terrel county and they knew what we wanted them to shoot. It was written on the wall next to the dinner table and discussed before they got there. We didn't even ask them to age the deer just don't shoot an 8 point or less. The babies that died were unbelievable and wounded deer were common. The sad thing is most of these customers grew up in West Texas. They just didn't care. If the ranch wasn't so big it would've been shot out in no time.

I see several reasons why a long term lease can be worthwhile. 1.) Not a lot of good leases these days. 2.) Having the ability to develop the lease where the land owner is contributing just as much to improve wildlife. 3.) The opportunity to have a place to hunt that you dont have to worry about getting the boot if more money comes along. 4.) Having a lease with guaranteed opportunity to take exotics. 5.) Long term to me if all things were good is insurance someone cant/wont boot you off especially if there is a substantial monetary consequence for that.

If you think youll get laid off this probably isnt for you, but with that said im looking at this as purely a business deal and would do all i can and would want the lessee to do all they can to find a replacement or work out a deferral till that person can be part of it. It would be bad business to get rid of the right person on acct of the money solely. There is so much more to a lease agreement than the money.

To be honest im not sure how much this idea is worth open market, and would need to do some comparative analysis to see what would be a square deal.

Get rid of the Oryx and make it a WT ranch.

Yeah i wont get rid of the oryx, they are a non competing species with the wt. And besides, if this doesnt ever materialize exotics offer a year round cash flow, which has many benefits.

I would try to find some type of corporate to take it for a lease. Kind of hard to find and get done, but good luck with what you choose.

Anyone been involved with corporate leases please chime in.

I imagine some ppl reading or that have posted might get the impression im being dense or stubborn. First, i appreciate yalls insight and conments. I take em to heart, but its in my nature and lack of experience why this wont work when i see trememdous upside potential and mitigatable downside potential.

My take on the situation is pretty simple, maybe too simple. If all known variables are laid out and addressed contractually the only hard part is find the right ppl. I think the heavy monetary penalties for breaking the contract keeps both very honest and toeing the line. I for one aint going to risk a $5k+ infraction. It does no good imo to have a lease agreement that isnt severe to the point that it mitigates. If you have a lease agreement and the worst is you get the boot imo its pretty week. And most wont pay the attorney fees to fight and most honest attorneys will say its not worth in many situations. But having a legal and binding contract to go after someone for the equity put in that sure as heck imo keeps everyone honest and mitigates.

I would look for a small to mid-size company with executives that hunt....very well defined rules, expectations, and penalties for infractions..."guests" must be guided by members and not just left in stands to make own shooting decisions, etc...

Owners of a machine shop...manufacturing company....auto dealership....law firm partners....doctors from a medical practice.....NOT large corporations IMHO....

You would be shocked what some will pay monetarily for an infraction when they see something they want.

So here would be my perspective as a customer
1)every seller thinks there product is better than others
2) so I am developing so you and your family can own and continue to use
3) most leases if I have seen aren't keen on booting people if they fit.
4) true. Other leases have exotics though
5) not really a benefit

The second paragraph is a why I wouldn't sign a deal like this. I know many people who never thought they would be laid off or theit company wouldn't go belly up.

You are wanting a long term agreement to guarantee your equity flow but unless you are giving me a better value for my money than a year over year dealI wouldn't sign it. You would be motivated to maintain the same person to ensure continuity and adherence to rules.

For example, why would I sign a 7 year deal for 7000 as opposed to a year over year deal at 1000? You get all the upside and and I take all the risk. Now if you give me a 7 year deal at 5000 that is a reason.

I need to eat my words in fact im laid off from oilfield right now. I didnt mean to come off like an a$$. What i didnt get across is i look at this like a long term investment. If im looking at investing long term that needs money year over year then i plan accordingly and wouldnt get into a deal i couldnt swing, and lose my investment. There are plenty of equities id love to buy at the moment because of tremendous upside potential, but cant take the risk with no job security. Maybe i shouldnt see it so much as a business, just how my brain works.

1.) Ill be completely upfront there are far better leases and ranches out there. Ill even say poaaibly better values upfront, but i dont know about long term. The ranch has tremendous potential its set up and with the right group or business could provide years of great hunting to all involved.

2.) Not at all is the lessee developing the ranch to ONLY benefit family. The plan i have is equal skin in the game to invest in making the game quality better for all.

5.) I love exotics and that gives a subjective value of the place and i recognize that, but i know im not the only one.

Ill put this out, please tell me what yall consider a value for what ive described. I want to know what guys and gals like us think this concept would be valued at.

I can see the value in the 7 year agreement at 7000 compared to the 1000 per year deal for the one leasing the land. It provides a set amount of time that they are guaranteed to be able to see the results of the investment. Basically, if I dump time, money and energy into a place, what is to stop the owner from dumping me next year for another group?

On my lease right now, we are discussing building a large building as a group. While I have been on the place for 20 years, we only sign a one year contract with no guarantee of the next year. If we put in the money, time, energy, etc for the building and the rancher or land owner decides to go a different route, that investment is gone.

From what I can tell, jorge is offering the long term lease to insure that the both parties are involved and will be able to see the results of the investment. Just my

Or shocked at what they would leave in the woods to avoid paying that infraction...

Exactly what im trying to convey in this post.

I think it is an interesting idea and very doable, but will take some vetting and the right group. That is going to be the hardest part.

Basically, I see it as a business partnership between you and the people leasing the land. While they don't own it, they will feel that they have a stake in it and the decisions that are made.

Management plans are like opinions, every one's is a little different. You will need to find someone that is willing to abide by your management plan or you will need to be flexible and easy to work with.

I personally don't like the recourse clause. I think it will cause some problems. With the right group, every effort should be made to what is best for the place and what is best for the herd. Mistakes will and do happen. I would lean more to a "replacement" cost or some other lessor punishment. Maybe no trophy for 2 years or something along those lines.

The price point will be difficult to give a number on IMO. There is going to be a lot of work required to get the place where you want to take it, and not just money, but labor and time from all parties. A progressive increase in fees seems like it would offer the best option, but I think that the increases need to be established at the front end. Never a good feeling to increase the value of the land and then feel like the only reason that the price went up was because of what you did to increase the value for the LO.

The number of hunters would need to be determined and it would need to be based on the number of deer that your place can logically sustain. Factoring in the total herd, age class, loss of culls along the way, loss of deer from natural causes, and the number of mature bucks that could reasonably be expected to be taken would need to be used to determine this. You and your family member would need to be factored into this.

As far as you and your family member hunting, to me, best case is that you are both part of the hunting group. This would include regular member duties, harvest quota's, stand entitlements, etc.

Feed would be another issue for me. Again, IMO, I think that there should be a designated number of free choice feeders set up away from the corn feeders and equal distribution between the members and family. On a HF place that side, with a managed herd, the supplement feeding should be a main focus.

I believe that it would be difficult to find a market value for what you are seeking. From what I am reading, there are not alot of places that do what you are wanting to do. The number would have to be something that it reasonable to you with consideration for the energy and effort that the hunters are providing, and not just the monetary value.

Another option, in regards to the pricing, that might be considered is selective guided hunts for the exotics during the off season to help offset the cost of the lease. Especially on the front end while the value is less.

I wish you luck my friend

Txshntr that was a greatly informative and most appreciated post. That helped me see a lot. Thank you very much.