Recent Game Warden Encounter

Yesterday afternoon the wife and I, and our home builder were sitting in our house discussing a new home we were consider building, and we noticed some movement in the yard and saw a man standing there wearing a uniform waving towards the house. Recognizing it as some kind of Law Enforcement, I exited the house and approached him, it was a Game Warden. Our counties Game Warden had retired and this one was recently assigned to our county. I asked if he was responding to a call, thinking I could help direct him to where he might be needed, he said no. He told me he had saw some deer blinds on our property and wanted to "check the place out". I noticed his vehicle in the road and asked how he was able to enter, as I have a electronic gate opener, he said that they operate on a radio frequency and he is able to key up on his radio, on a certain channel for entry, works on some but not all. He noticed a deer leg bone my dogs had been chewing on, asked me if that was a deer bone, told him yes I had killed two, he asked to see my hunting license, which I showed him, all was in order. He then left my property. Thinking on the encounter, I was not sure why he was there. I know they have a tough job, but what was the "Probable Cause" for entry onto my property. My deer blinds are viewable from the road but have been shut down with covers for several weeks, we had been outside earlier walking around the build site and had not heard any gunshots, at all, anywhere. Our house is about 1/4 mile down a windy road and can't be seen from the entrance. I know deer and game are the property of the State of Texas, that is until you hit a deer on a road and they damage your vehicle, then they have nothing to do with it, but do they have the right to "check the place out" because my deer blinds are visible from the road?

Our family has owned the property since 1938, yes we hunt it, we only allow family on it, Never have we ever seen a Game Warden on our ranch. I have encountered Game Wardens fishing, all were great encounters, but this one does not seem legit.

Yes. http://www.countryworldnews.com/news-archives/CTX/2005/ct1027rites.php

Texas Parks and Wildlife Code:

In Chapter 12 section 103
“An authorized employee of the department may enter on any land or water where wild game or fish are known to range or stray. No action may be sustained against an employee of the department to prevent his entering on land or water when acting in his official capacity.”

Ok - that answers my question, Thank you.

Have any enemies or hard feelings or dealings with anyone that may call in...Not being facious just that is a option. Could have been related to someone close and was just checking out the scene,I wouldnt worry to much sounds like all was well. Also Welcome

Don't think so, no neighbors within a half mile and we all get along very well, have to look out for each other out here. No worries about it, but was really surprised to see someone not invited on our property standing in our yard. And thank you for the Welcome. I have been monitoring this site and the fishing forum for many years, good site.

I wonder if he would have cut a chain and lock off of your gate, just to "check the place out"?

Reading the above, I would say yes. "No action may be sustained against an employee of the department to prevent his entering on land or water when acting in his official capacity.”

I wished he would come up here and start and investigation as to where all of the deer have gone. they all disappeared a month ago.

Last season I had one stop and ask to see my license while I was dressed in street clothes working on a tractor. He asked me if I had been hunting that year and after I said yes, that's when he asked to see my license.

I have to wonder if our local constable will one day stop and on knock on my door and ask to see my driver's license and proof of insurance after seeing our vehicles parked in the driveway.

the law says you don't have to answer questions of the police if they question you, shouldn't that apply to GW as well? I mean, 5th Amendment and all...
you could have just smiled, been respectful and said, have a nice day sir I'm kind of busy and I don't have time to chat with you.

Agreed. But why be a jerk even when confronted ...

Sounds like an opportunity to have built a relationship with a new game warden. You might need his help some day.

why do you associate that with being a jerk? we're not talking about an Open Carry Texas event.
No legal council worth a crap will tell you to talk to police if they approach you and start asking questions.
you can still be respectful and decline to answer questions, it's not hard to do.

yep as said above maybe he was getting out trying to meet people, coulda done it better but eh

I agree, great help when you need it.

BTY, iirc, when they make contact with you as this one did on your place, he is bound to keep any personal info to himself, if he does not, then you have a right to sue at a 1k cap, should be in the same code.

I agree with Scooter (Sniper Rab), GW probably saw the blinds and just made contact, sounds like he is new to your area, so he is just getting the feel of the county. Once you admit to have actively hunting, he is compelled to look over your license I would imagine.

We've debated this before. They have broad authority as has been shown-basically the right to go anywhere wildlife is and/or where there is "hunting activity" taking place.

But their rights go no further than any other LEO-though many seem to "push it". IMO one is going to "push it" too far one day, someone will challenge it, and some of that IMO overbroad statutory authority will get taken away.

Encounters like yours and the one Dan related just don't sit well with me.

X2

We are law abiding citizens and have nothing to hide. However if the game warden shows up wondering about on our property he will be respected called sir and asked to leave.

The interesting thing is if we were reading about this in the Game Warden Field Notes and it talked about a GW entering a property after seeing hunting stands and subsequently finding evidence of illegal deer and hunting without a license, the response on the THF would be overwhelmingly positive.

If any of you think the GWs have too much power or authority, then contact your state legislator. The laws were made by all of us through the legislative process.

I understand Game Wardens find various illegal activity by walking around and investigating.

Do not undertsand how people get upset when a GW talks with them at their deer camp

No kidding - we welcome the GW's when they come into our camp. We are totally respectful towards them and they are the same towards us. We do everything on the up and up so nothing to fear. We want them familiar with our property in order to help in the event poachers come around. Each one we have met over the years have been professional and very reasonable

Just a way of saying hello for them... no biggy

coming into a property un-announced, legal or not could be a little dangerous.
Some guys have had a lot of thefts and poaching going on. I have read all of the post here and agree partly with both sides but if a GW comes onto private land at dusk, I hope they have clothing that help them to be identified easily because that can be a recipe for a disaster. Their jobs are dangerous enough as t is.

If you are like me and obey the law, we just want to be left alone, but it doesn't hurt to have a good relationship with these guys. I have always been above courteous and respectful whether on the lake or passing by and chatting on the county road.

Man was at his house. GW walking around in his yard.

Not wanting to get into a banter but he saw blinds from the road, pulled up and got out of his truck. Spoke with the landowner letting him know he was the newly assigned warden to that county. Seems like he was just getting to know everyone and letting them get to know him. Not every encounter has to be a conspiracy theory.

Ours climbs over the fence and comes to the cabin, even though the gate is not locked and sometimes even open. Doesn't bother us at all.

I absolutely agree here. Doesn't sit well with me either. Feeling his new beat out? Well using his gadget to forcefully open someone's gate is not how you make friends. GWs need us on their side as much as we need them. And like others have said, has the potential to spread unduely to other facets of law enforcement.

I don't think it's a conspiracy theory at all. I just don't like anyone walking around in my yard unannounced. Period. Authority or not.

BTW, I don't like the many Border Patrol checkpoints inside the border I had to stop at 10 times last week either. Felt like Russia. Absolutely unconstitutional. They will be challenged and gone one day.

My impression was he was at home not deer camp (though it sounds like he lives where he hunts) but I can see how it would be disconcerting to see someone standing in your yard having somehow gotten past your electric gate. I had the GW come out to my place when I wasn't there. He went through my cooler, freezer etc because I had the barn door open. 6-8 weeks after is when I even realized he had been there because that's when I found a note written on last yrs TPWD annual hunting booklet with a note to call him and several things underlined. I didn't like that he had gone through my things without me present and the things he underlined (regarding deer processing) don't apply to me because they are for people who lease.
They have a tough job but some of the things they elect to do can be overly invasive IMO.

Welcome to the OP.

He was in the man's yard, not his hunting camp!

Not every property has a hunting camp.. some people actually live were they hunt.

Most new wardens will want to get to know the locals. Nothing but good can come from this unless your breaking the law

My problem with this is what happens if he comes on our land and our dog attacks. We have an 80+ lb Rhodesian Ridgeback that can be protective of our property (rightfully so).

If a police officer pulls into my driveway at home and I have done nothing wrong, then I have zero problem with that. I walk out to him and ask him politely if I can help or what he needs. Same with a GW - he is an officer of the law and has every right to be there. Again - I have no issue with any peace officer approaching me or my property

The constitution states otherwise.

OP, welcome to THF

What county was this in?

It is a gray area of the law - LEO's can enter your property for a number of reasons without a warrant. Probable cause, etc. Again, my point is if I have done nothing wrong or illegal then why would I have an issue with any LEO approaching me anywhere?

Surely you recognize that there is a world of difference between your driveway that is openly accessible from a street, and your front yard that requires you to have an electric gate code and rive 1/4 mile down a road to an area that is not visible from the street?

Had the GW even just wakled to the front door and rang the doorbell, introducing himself as the new guy in town and wanting to get to know the landowners, I have little doubt the situation would have been perceived 180 degrees different by the OP (or pretty much anybody else for that matter).

99.99999999999% of the time it's not that the GW decided to visit your camp - it's wholly a function of the actions they have chosen before, during or even after that visit that have the biggest effect on how you view them from that point on.

Anyone who walks into your yard un announced is going about "getting acquainted" the wrong way. Jimmying the electronic lock is "breaking". And while "entering" is legal, the "breaking" shouldn't be.

Most GW's have the good sense to climb the fence or ask to come visit.

The element of surprise can be a very dangerous and foolish endeavor.

What if your kids friend comes over one day and that dog attacks him...

Just ask, "Am I being detained?"

Say nothing less or more.

They like that.

Doesn't that just apply to your domicile, car, etc? Not open private property, fenced or not, particularly when there is probable cause. With probable cause established by the hunting stands.

4th Amendment
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects,[a] against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized

There's a difference in knowing when someone is coming over versus just showing up. The dog can be put away if I know in advance.

Not sure how I feel about that. Does a box blind imply hunting? Does a barn imply farming?

Could simply be a wildlife photographer.

Just because there is a blind is not probable cause. There is clearly no law broken for a blind to just be setting in the yard. If probable cause that there are laws broken, enter, with a warrant.
Meth is made in houses. Just because I have a house is not probable cause that I am breaking the law.
Kidd-nappers use cars to take kids. Just because I have a car doesn't give an officer probable cause to search it.
Too many people say "I am doing nothing wrong, I don't have anything to hide." When truthfully if armed officers just walked right in your front door, because they were in the neighborhood, and strip searched your house, you would have a problem.
The point is you are innocent, there is a method for dealing with criminals. It is different than dealing with an innocent citizen. Do not treat me like a criminal.

That's pretty much it in a nutshell. They know they are over the line. They just count on no one to challenge them or consent. 99% of the folks do. That's how they get away with it. But a good LEO doesn't push the envelope just because he thinks he can get away with it. Yet, some do.

On my property I wouldn't answer any questions and politely ask him to leave.

Always good to have an attorney on retainer too just in case the LEO takes it personal and wants to haul you in.

I'm not a fan of them entering private property without probably cause, plenty of people live where they hunt and that shouldn't give the wardens free reign to search private residences.

You can do exactly that. You can refuse to answer any questions and they will eventually let you through if they are honest. But all the while they are searching for a busted taillight or for you to say/do something to give them reason to detain. Or, if corrupt, make something up (like a fake canine "hit").

Point is they have no legal authority to detain/question you in the first place. That's why IMO they will be challenged and gone one day.

A complete waste of $$ anyway. They don't check 99% of the vehicles.

I believe it is classified as hunting activity and maybe has been upheld by the courts in giving the GW probable cause to investigate hunting activity.


My post is not to argue this and I'd rather not have people coming on any of my land without asking. I'm not talking about whether it's right or wrong, just saying this is how it will probably work when a GW stops by for an unannounced visit. One of you go ahead and challenge it in court sometime. Let us know how it works out.

When I retire one day I might if the circumstance arises. Don't have the time or inclination right now. But we have the folks who have challenged LEO authority and won to thank for the court decisions that keep our constitutional rights alive. So I applaud them for it. It's exactly how the system is supposed to work.

Otherwise there would be checkpoints everywhere you go. You can bet on it.

Don't believe it has anything to do with the stand...


From Chapter 12 I believe

Security over liberty and such.

I'm no expert, but it seems unconstitutional, to me. If it is, I don't see how anyone couldn't have a problem with it.

The GW would most likely say the stand gives him the authority as it indicates "hunting activity". That is a much stronger argument than the provision you cite-which is there, but a weak reed.

And I believe the border patrol can require you to let them have a lock on your ranch gate so they can gain entrance - GW the same -

Exactly!!!

Was outside working, just returned to view, someone asked if this was my house and not a hunting cabin, yes house on property for over twenty years. We have just under two thousand acres here. I am a retired computer programer. Another asked what county, I would prefer not to answer that other than saying the hill country. The Warden was nice and respectful, just startled all three of us to see someone not invited on our property in our yard and I wanted to ensure that he was not violating the powers that were entrusted to him. He is welcome here anytime.

Here is a good read - http://www.yourhoustonnews.com/cleveland...f58a45ad2b.html

What stands out is ..." evidence presented by the state that Diaz was the subject of numerous complaints throughout his 27-year career as a game warden..."

png, what a shame. There are some good wardens out there. But still too many Barney Fifes.

Aren't we supposed to be innocent until proven guilty? If there are no reports of suspicious behavior etc. then why are the game wardens snooping around on private property? Shouldn't they assume we are hunting in the deer blind they can see by legal means and methods until a neighboring property owner reports shots at night, or a person posts pictures of a deer bragging about killing it before season opens etc.

I think they should need to have at least suspicion of illegal actions/activity before they go wondering around on your property. Again I will treat them kindly and with respect and likely after I show him my properly filled out license I will ask him how he liked my cooperation and then kindly ask him to leave and call ahead next time. Will it change anything? Maybe not but if there is a next time he will start getting the smart arse routine.

I am all for property rights and citizen's rights. There are also bad LEO's. There are also bad lawyers, doctors, oil field workers, hunters, and on and on. This underlying assumption that most of them are bad guys is simply wrong. Overall the LEO's out there are good family people who care about protecting the public from bad guys and they do one hell of a job risking their lives everyday to keep you and your loved ones safe. They are also human and certainly make mistakes like each of us do.

I have never been even close to being on the wrong side of the law other than a traffic violation. Therefore I am not insulted or fearful if an LEO comes to my property or deer lease or wherever to introduce themselves, ask me a question, etc. because I know I have done nothing wrong and have nothing to hide. If the LEO turns out to be a jerk or over steps his bounds then I would remain polite and go to his supervisor at a later date to discuss. But this thought that a GW or any LEO is out to get me because they approach me or come on my property stumps me.

It's about something way more important than that.

Enlighten me please - and if is about conspiracy, Texas should leave the USA, etc. then never mind

I understand why someone might have issues with a GW just showing up on your property because he saw some deer stands but quite honestly this doesn't bother me and never has. I'm doing nothing wrong and he is just doing his job. The guy probably wanted to introduce himself and get to know the area. He may have done it in a way that is unappealing to some here but far from illegal. People would be singing a different tune if the GW showed up on their property and caught people poaching, or stealing stuff. Just my opinion but I don't see it as a bad thing to have them checking in on the property, especially if you aren't always there. (which isn't the OP's case but it is for a lot of us).

Lots of big bravado here.

Seems unconstitutional? Go ahead. Challenge it. You won't be the first and I suspect that you won't be the last. So far, the powers have held.

I am amazed that so many people manage to see their GW. I have been hunting since 2009 and have yet to see one in my county, much less actually meet one.

They have held because they have not been challenged.

They always do. Up until about a year ago, police could stick a magnetic GPS unit on your car. Now, they can't.

I suppose we could liken this encounter with the recent event that took place in Victoria. Did he do something wrong? No. Could he have done something differently? In my opinion he could have. If he was there for a social call, perhaps leaving his card at the gate would have been a good option. I'm an LEO as well, but without being dispatched to the residence I don't let myself into anyone's fenced property. At the very least it is impolite.

I'm all for game wardens catching poachers. But if I have one show up in my yard at night and asks to sees huntig license because my dog is chewing on a deer bone. I will politely tell him to take a hike.
Nothing good can come of it. Only two things will happen by answering his questions and giving him ur license.
1. He will say thank you and hand it back

2. U forgot to cut out the date. Or sign it. Or used the wrong tag. Or forgot to put the couty on it and he will slap you with a fine. Now maybe u think you are all legal but sometimes u make a mistake. Heck I shot a 13" o greater buck once. I thought I had it all legal. Several months later I pull out my license to show my buddy something and I failed to check the 13" or greater box. I didn't do it on purpose but if a gw asked what kind of deer I shot the year and I told him an 8 point and invited him in the barn to show him the antlers and showed him some pics because I wanted to be friendly. He would then say thanks for showing me. Now here is a 500 dollar ticket and I'm going to need those antlers. I'm just saying. Stuff can happen

Well put. Thank you sir for what you do.

Yep. It cracks me up how many people "think" they're always on the right side of the law. When in reality, there's hardly a time when a GW can't find something to cite you for if he/she is so inclined.

There are way too many game laws with way too many details.

That argument sure does get old. What I am or am not doing has nothing to do with my rights. Rights infringement doesn't have to bother you. It does bother me.

Some people just can't understand this Sneaky!

Really?

http://ivn.us/2012/03/06/supreme-court-no-warrant-needed-for-ca-game-wardens-to-stop-cars/
http://www.portersimon.com/law-review/2011/07-01-2011.pdf

New GW - 2000 acre tract of land with visible blinds - entry gate with no house visible - could be the GW figured it was a deer camp. Still learning his turf. If he'd realized it was a residence, he might have just driven in to talk, in lieu of the hunting camp walk-in. I'd cut him some slack.

Essentially it is a hunting 'location' if you hunt from there, and bring game back there to clean/process. Not like he was walking down a residential street banging on doors asking to see licenses. Love all the internet BAs that would just tell him they didn't have to answer. You guys just made a new best friend, especially Sept thru Dec. Maybe is sticks in your craw, but no need to buy trouble.

On the side note of gates, don't get a false sense of security from having an electronic gate. No real barrier to anyone but UPS and door to door salesmen. Law enforcement have 'back doors' entry methods for your safety. Hate to have emergency personnel (ambulance/fire truck) locked out and delayed when you need them. Larger complex gates here are supposed to open from a siren. We had a car broken into in our driveway, and looked at getting a gate. Security company said if its dumb kids they will climb over, and any crook worth his salt knows how to open them. Talked to police, and it turned out the same idiots that broke into our car, also broke into a car a few streets over the same night and they had a gate.

I think our founding fathers would prefer the warden be in trouble in this instance, not the law abiding citizen.

Inspection authority in a different state. Man observed in the act of fishing. Not the TX statutes discussed.

So, yes. Really.

No Sir what gets old is people who insinuate that all LEO's are out to get them and infringe on their rights. For every LEO who gets out of line or makes a mistake there are thousands of daily events where LEO's help citizens that will never be reported nor known. The vast majority take the oath of protect and serve very seriously and put their lives on the line each and every day. So once again, there are certainly overzealous LEO's at times and they should be reported and dealt with by their superiors.

For those who feel peace officers are out to get them and that their objective is to infringe on all of our rights, I suggest you go ride out with an officer several times - it is easy to arrange - after spending several shifts with a patrolling officer you most likely will come away with a whole new appreciation for what and who these officers have to deal with on a daily basis.

I have. In southeast DC. Been there? And I still dislike how this GW encounter went down. It's not that people feel that LEOs are out to get them. That's not required for the infringement of a person's rights. It's that people feel that some LEOs have no respect for a person's rights and walk all over them in the name of "doing their job" while treating every citizen they encounter with distrust. This is a two way street.

An officer who disrespects a person's rights are not likely to be respected themselves.

I understand and have seen first hand how LEOs risk their lives everyday. I got it, and I know they want to go home to their families every night, as do I. But sometimes, officers put themselves in the middle of, or initiate the conflict, again, all under the veil of "doing their job", or the probable outright lie this GW gave for entering the property. Must have been a slow day.

I agree - and as I have stated repeatedly, there are officers who overstep and they should be reigned in. My point is that the vast majority of these folks do an admirable job in tough situations - so this theme or insinuation that if an LEO approaches you they are infringing on you rights is just off base. Again - good and bad in every profession known to man -

Oo

I'm sure the King felt the very same way when colonists decided it was time to declare their independence.

The day we become a nation where we no longer "demand" that authorities respect our rights as citizens, is the day we have lost our charter.

For an officer to ask to see my hunting license while I am working on a tractor, equates to one asking to see my driver's license while I am watching television.

I have Deer, dove, and duck hunted since 1997 and I have never been checked by a game warden on private or public property. I have fished for longer than that and been checked twice in a day by a GW.

Some are friendly some are jack wagons. Only ticket we ever got was for an expired boat registration because it got lost in the US postal system and we forgot. Recently met our local GW at a Whataburger. I approached him and said hi asked if he had been bus seen any big bucks etc. told him we were hunting and he never even asked to see my license.

Perhaps what's being missed is that like many professions these days, as more and more Baby Boomers are retiring, there has been a significant increase in those wanting to start out their careers by making a name for themselves.

From Texas Wildlife Code Chapter 12, some may find "interesting".

""Sec. 11.0191. ENFORCEMENT OF CODE. Law enforcement officers commissioned by the director( reference too TP&W Director) and any other peace officers have the authority to enforce all provisions of this code.""

tlk I don't see anyone insinuating all LEOs are bad or any general LEO bashing going on. I think you seeing things that are not there.

Most of my LEO encounters have been fine and pleasant.

The GW at my farm in Houston county (Eddie Lehr) is as fine an officer as you will ever meet.

Maybe so, but just talking reality. Unless I want to be a test case in a courtroom I see no reason to act evasive and encourage him to focus on me because I'm acting like I'm hiding something.

From Chapter 12 (Title 2) Read carefully

Sec. 12.102. INSPECTION OF WILDLIFE RESOURCES. (a) In this section:

(1) "Residence" means a person's principal or ordinary home or dwelling place.

(2) "Temporary residence" means a place where a person temporarily dwells or seeks shelter. The term does not include a hunting blind. The term does include a:

(A) hunting club or lodge;

(B) clubhouse;

(C) cabin;

(D) tent;

(E) manufactured home used as a hunting club or lodge; and

(F) hotel room, motel room, or room in a boardinghouse used during a hunting trip.

(3) "Wildlife resource" means any animal, bird, reptile, amphibian, fish, or form of aquatic life or any part of an animal, bird, reptile, amphibian, fish, or form of aquatic life the hunting, catching, or possession of which is regulated by this code.

(b) Except as provided by Subsection (d), a game warden or other peace officer commissioned by the department who observes a person engaged in an activity regulated by this code or under the jurisdiction of the commission or reasonably believes that a person is or has been engaged in an activity regulated by this code or under the jurisdiction of the commission may inspect:

(1) any license, permit, tag, or other document issued by the department and required by this code of a person hunting or catching wildlife resources;

(2) any device that may be used to hunt or catch a wildlife resource;

(3) any wildlife resource in the person's possession; and

(4) the contents of any container or receptacle that is commonly used to store or conceal a wildlife resource.

(c) Except as provided by Subsection (d), a game warden or other peace officer commissioned by the department may inspect any wildlife resource that has been taken by a person and is in plain view of the game warden or other peace officer.

(d) Nothing in this section authorizes a game warden or other peace officer commissioned by the department to conduct a search otherwise authorized by this section:

(1) in a person's residence or temporary residence; or

(2) on a publicly maintained road or way that is:

(A) improved, designed, or ordinarily used for vehicular traffic;

(B) open to the public; and

(C) distinguishable from a shoulder, berm, or other area not intended for vehicular traffic.

Added by Acts 2003, 78th Leg., ch. 558, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 2003.


Sec. 12.103. ENTERING LAND; USE OF INFORMATION OBTAINED BY ENTRY; CIVIL PENALTY. (a) To enforce the game and fish laws of the state and to conduct scientific investigations and research regarding wild game or fish, an authorized employee of the department may enter on any land or water where wild game or fish are known to range or stray. No action may be sustained against an employee of the department to prevent his entering on land or water when acting in his official capacity as described by this subsection.

(b) Except as provided by Subsection (d), the department may use information collected by an employee of the department on privately owned land only for the purposes of scientific investigations and research described in Subsection (a) and only if authorized in writing by the landowner or the landowner's agent. Unless the department first obtains the written consent of the landowner or the landowner's agent, the department may not:

(1) use other incidental information obtained on the land that does not pertain directly to the investigation or research authorized under Subsection (a); or

(2) enter or permit the entry of any information that does not pertain directly to the investigation or research authorized under Subsection (a), into a database:

(A) maintained by the department and available to a person other than a department employee;

(B) maintained by a natural heritage program administered by the department; or

(C) established and maintained by any other person.

(c) Except as provided by Subsection (d), information collected under this section may only be reported or compiled in a manner that prevents the identification of an individual parcel or specific parcels of private property without the written consent of the landowner or the landowner's agent.

(d) The department may collect and enter data as necessary relating to the occurrence or harvest of natural resources in public land or water. The department may collect and report standardized annual wildlife survey information required by the Pitman-Robertson Wildlife Restoration Act (16 U.S.C. Section 669 et seq.).

(e) The department is liable to a private landowner for a civil penalty in the amount of $1,000 for a violation of this section involving information collected by an employee of the department on the landowner's property. A landowner may bring suit to collect the penalty in the county in which the land is located or the county in which the landowner resides.

I still don't like it.

Went to the Supreme Court and is basically the same law as ours.

With that said, challenge it. Go right ahead. Knock yourself out. If you think it is so wrong, instead of wasting time complaining here, actually try to do something about it. Contact your state representatives. Fund a defense of a person prosecuted under this law.

Why do people get so cranky? It's an internet forum. I have as much right to my opinion as you do to yours. Sheesh.

You are correct - I get a little defensive on this topic because in today's world the media and some folks would have us believe that most all LEO's ARE bad guys and that simply is not true. My son is a LEO so I have the opportunity to know and be around a number of his fellow LEO's - they are fine people and do one hell of a job protecting the public and treating people with respect even in many cases where the person being detained shows zero respect towards them.

So sorry if I get a little heated and overboard on this subject - again I wish everyone could ride out with these guys to see what they deal with daily - I think most would walk away amazed and grateful - Merry Christmas to all

I wholeheartedly agree. I am grateful for them every day. Merry Christmas!

This GW encounter has stink all over it.

And who insinuated that? I spoke to the situation at hand. Nothing else. Let's stick with that.

What's funny is most of you would give kudos to the GW if he found some illegal hunting or poaching activity by doing exactly as this one did.

What's even funnier, new Game Warden learning his county, meeting his landowners, notices property with obvious hunting blinds. He drives in, probably expecting to find a deer camp, but instead finds a residence in which he drives up to, in the afternoon (really sneaky like) and gets out in full uniform, waves to occupants of house. He introduces himself, makes small talk, landowner offers that he has killed 2 deer and GW dutifully checks his paperwork. Alls good, GW thanks him, leaves his business card, offers to help if ever needed and calmly drives away. WHAT HAS THIS WORLD COME TO? HOW RUDE!

Actually, I wouldn't. The Constitution clearly spells out the King's approach of "The ends justify the means" was worth staging a revolution over. Some of us understand that. The "If you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear" approach has been the mantra of Kings and dictators since time began.

I'll stick with the American way.

and what would you rather have your tax dollars paying him to do on "a slow day?" would you rather him be sitting in a parking lot playing clash of clans waiting for a call to come out? would you rather him be sitting in a restaurant drinking coffee?

whats wrong with him actually doing his job and being proactive? like someone said above, if this contact had turned up a poaching operation or meth lab or house full of kidnapped kids, which contacts like these by LE do sometimes, would this thread be 4 pages long?

One can easily see there are many limitations on GWs. In a nutshell:

1)They can enter and area and inspect receptacles and open and obvious areas IF HUNTING ACTIVITY IS OR HAS TAKEN PLACE; and

2)They can enter private lands for scientific research ONLY. (That's why I said this was such a weak reed earlier).

Otherwise, they must have probable cause to search areas clearly set forth as having a reasonable expectation of privacy just like any other LEO.

They do not have superpowers. In questionable circumstances, most people end up giving away their rights by talking and giving their consent. They count on it.

highly irrational.

I was referring to the proletariat.

prole-what?

SMH....All threads end up in the same place....high fence versus low fence debate anyone?

Rights are not self enforcing - simply asserting the rights granted to you by federal and state constitutions does not equate to be evasive.

This, unfortunatlely, is the overriding mentality it seems - if you don't instantly comply with every demand from a LEO (after all, you have nothing to hide, correct), you are obviously being evasive and hiding something.

There are plenty of ways to assert your rights and be polite at the same time.

But that is not what this thread is about. It seems that the actions of the GW, which may have well had nothing but good intentions, have been lost in the rush to place everybody not willing to subject themselves to body cavity searches (because you have nothing to hide, after all) as tin foil hatters that are anti-government conspiracy theorists.

Simply put - the GW could have chosen much better tactics if the intent was to introduce himself as the new guy in town and who was out to get to know the neighbors and landowners. Climbing a fence and showing up unannounced in the front yard, then proceeding to ask questions when no law has even been perceived to have been broken, is just not the best method in which to do this.

Exactly LMAO

NP ""One can easily see there are many limitations on GWs. In a nutshell:

1)They can enter and area and inspect receptacles and open and obvious areas IF HUNTING ACTIVITY IS OR HAS TAKEN PLACE; and

2)They can enter private lands for scientific research ONLY. (That's why I said this was such a weak reed earlier).

Otherwise, they must have probable cause to search areas clearly set forth as having a reasonable expectation of privacy just like any other LEO.

They do not have superpowers. In questionable circumstances, most people end up giving away their rights by talking and giving their consent. They count on it.""


Agree, was one of the things even covered waaay back in basic LEO school, their probable cause is different as it pertains to wildlife. But as I referenced earlier in the same code in this thread, the power to enforce TPW laws can fall on "any" sworn officer, same established rules of Search and seizure, still apply under the constitutional guidelines..

IMO, the "for scientific reasons" is a very broad inclusion in the law, but a good defense attorney would be asking for the GW credentials as to his "scientific" training. I think this may used to gain access in some circumstances (excuse) when IMO, it was meant more towards the biologist duties, or that is my impression anyway.

Just want to point out one more thing, TP&W, is often criticized for the LE aspect of it, but look at the whole picture of what they try to do and I think overall, we are fortunate to have the dept as caretakers. They do far more than just enforcement, that is just the portion the public has to deal with.

Better tactics?? He drove up to the guys house! What fence did he climb?

Read carefully-especially the breaching the electronic gate part.

Revolution

It's a Game Warden not British or The Taliban

What's funny, is that many of you that are anti game wardens, are the first to yell "tin foil" if it's the federal government someone is questioning;

The game wardens are the least of our worries, and really are the good guys.

so since {a} DOVE can {and probably have} go anywhere (except inside my house), does this mean a GW can go anywhere he wants to anytime ??
anybodys back-yard anywhere in the state, anytime, for any reason (because of above)?

{Don't get me wrong; I'll be the first to invite GW on my place anytime . . . }

They are all coming to get us!!!!

Idiocracy at its finest, could the Warden exercised better judgement...Absolutely, but good Lord..

Dove fall under Federal, but iirc, our GW's now have federal status as far as enforcement. Based on what you asked though, I would say they have "carte blanche", at least the way I understand it.

Edit: that is where I feel the separation from other LEO's is, but I still think they need PC for a crime.

Scientific Research by GW? Yahh, right.

Are you being serious or just trolling?

Perhaps by definition but just because he can? Why? Please allow me to explain a little about what I do as an LEO (read Street Cop here). I have a pretty good understanding of what is lawful for me to do and what is not. Now I will be the first to admit, I don't know everything.(If I don't know, I don't do it!!) A lot of my job takes common sense and experience. Experience is an excellent teacher. I, as an LEO, am held to a very high standard by my peers as well as The State of Texas (who licenses me to do this job and requires I maintain standards in certain proficiencies and continuing education). Because of that high standard, any encounter I have in a professional manner can potentially land me in court. So, in ANY discharge of my duties as a Peace Officer, I must be able to articulate my actions and be justified in doing so (that justifiable bar being what a reasonable man would have done in the same situation.) So, just because the "law" allows me to do something, doesn't mean it fits in every situation. It must fit and I must be able to articulate why I did what I did in that situation. "Just because I can" will get you in a real bind with no one (your department, city, coworkers, ect) willing to stand behind you.

He was either:

(a) board
(b) board and looking for a good spot to poach while you're away for the holidays
(c) board and looking for a good spot to poach while you're away for the holidays and didn't realize you were there so when he saw you he had to pretend to be doing something legitimate
(d) lost

^^^ as in boredom?

I must be old and times long ago were much simpler in a small town. I'd say just be hospitable and invite the young LEO in for a cold tea, sit, choot the chit, and get to know each other. Love thy neighbor and all that stuff, geeze

GRAMMER POLICE

Pull this thread over!

BORED not board, unless we're talking 2x4.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Dude, you have no freaking clue how many invitations he gets every year to come to some place to hunt. He has absolutely NO reason(or desire for that matter) to poach. I also guarantee the integrity the man possesses will not allow him to accept any invitation for fear some IDIOT would accuse him of taking bribes. I've heard a lot of stupid remarks on this forum over the years but that has to be one of the best.

Please don't mischaracterize my statement. My point is that as a GW, there's never really a slow day. I have known and befriended several over the years (not just in Texas) and none of them have slow days. Actually, most of them are underpaid and dog tired from staking out poachers all night, every night. They're wondering themselves when they're ever going to get to hunt and their wives are ticked because they're always gone. And I'm here to tell you that neither of them would be wasting their time doing what the subject GW did unless they're working a tip or call, which may be the case unbeknownst to the OP. You don't go through a person's electronic gate "just to make friendly contact and leave a business card".

To some of the other guys in the thread, I have yet to see any GW haters. I know I'm not. But just because a person expects a GW or any other LEO to respect the Constitution and their rights doesn't make them a GW/LEO hater. Give me a freaking break.

I've been a public servant for 19 years, in not the safest of jobs, with a CJ undergrad and a Public Administration graduate degree. I assure you I'm on their side.

But I dare say most of you have never been in a situation where you've lost your rights, or even traveled to a place where the populace never had any rights. Go see what kind of society they live in, where the government has its way with the people at-will. You just may find a new found respect for our Constitution and the protections it provides. Yes, even today it still works.

Cool. Now we are anti game warden and paranoid because we have an interest in preserving our basic rights. There is no middle ground here. No comprehension. No sense. If you criticize any LEO around here, for anything, you're a cop hating, tin foil wearing conspirator. Our clique at its finest.

So yes, better tactics could have been observed on the part of the GW. It's hard to tell exactly - either he climbed the gate and walked, or he used his radio frequency to open the gate without a warrant or invitation and drove up to the house. Based on the description, it seems to me like he walked from the road to the house.

In either scenario, there was, in my opinion, a poor choice by the GW for simply wanting to "check the place out". Better tactics and choices could have been made on his part. Pretty simple, really. Am I condemning him to hell or prison? Nope. But I also think that unless he had reason to believe a crime had been committed and warranted an investigation (and simply seeing deer blinds are not probable cause), he did not have the right or authority to trespass because he "wanted to check the place out".

You sure like to pop off your opinion on what other people like that you dont, or what someone wants to name their company or call their product but oh man, when someone says something about you or your opinions.

I defend myself, like anyone else does. How is that different?

The problem here is unfounded accusations. I don't expect you to understand.

Whole lotta dumbazz in this thread. Enjoy. I got better things to do than hang around and be all butthurt about a Game Warden doing his job. . Merry Christmas.

IMO.. I do not mind if there is no gate and they drive up... to me, that is an open invitation to come up the driveway and he has cause because he saw the deer blinds.. but using his whatever to "pick the lock on the gate", so to speak.. now THAT would tick me off. climb the fence.. irritating.. picking the lock on my locked gate.. well, now you have crossed a line...

again.. imo.

Oh, and for the haters.... I like GWs also and think a good relationship is essential.. but relationships are a 2-way street.

Legal for him to do it or not, I think it is a CS way to mess with people.

Let me apologize and explain. You see, I work in the oilfield and we give each other a hard time, all the time. Rougher than most. So I tend to do that here and forget that I'm around a more sensitive audience that is on a different wavelength. So, please, forgive me, I'm used to dealing with a much tougher class of men. I'll tone it down.

I agree 100% BirdDog........

hahahaha

GW has my gate code and is welcome to come eat or drink anytime at my ranch. I talk to him at least once a month just to keep in touch with him and see what is going on in our county. Have dove hunted with GW at my ranch and have invited him to bring his kid deer hunting on my place. Always enjoy the conversation and he lets me know if anything is going on around my ranch or in the county. GW is a great source to find out what is happening around the county if you take the time to get to know them.

GW don't really have a reason nor a desire I would think to poach a place. I have to agree though if he was on the land then there was something reported or he was checking a tip from a neighbor.

Prayers sent.

ha! yes, that's what I meant.

I see you have a sense of humor. That was a good one.

Easy feller, just kidding around here. If I had known how worked up some of y'all were I would have posted more carefully...and double checked my spelling.

Remember, people, this is the internet. It's not that serious.

It's Christmas and we all joined this forum because he have something in common.

Just a thought. Merry Christmas everyone...Santas watching

COAL FOR EVERYONE

I gave the GW my gate code too. If he had picked the lock, I'd have been pissed. My GW has common enough sense not to do that.

All in all, I think we all want the GW to be polite. This one is wet behind the ears and should get some lessons in manners, but everything else he did is more than acceptable.

Perhaps, in time, he will learn the ropes and it will all work out well enough.

R

Good Lord, rights are not granted to us by the Constitution. That must be the crap they are teaching in school these days.
We are endowed by our creator with rights, the government is limited in it's ability to infringe upon these rights. It's about limiting government, not granting government power over us.

I am wary of many, but the game wardens are NOT what I am concerned about at all

yep, that seems to be the mantra of a certain crowd here. Start throwing labels out. Make fun of what puzzles you I guess. Some of us stayed awake in civics class and some of us didn't apparently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUUZ2fKVqcs&feature=em-share_video_user

I feel safe saying that few if any of us are anti-LEO. Just as we do when driving, we want to be left alone when obeying the law.

And how should they go about checking that you actually are obeying the law?

I don't think he meant it that way. I don't believe many expect a GW to not check licenses, etc. It's their job. I'm happy to share my credentials with them when asked, and I'm sure most reasonable people are too. But picking the lock isn't what most folk would say is reasonable, and while I don't want to put words in Dan's mouth, I'm sure that's pretty close to what he meant.

Any way they want within the confines of the Constitution-which has generous privacy protections and puts them ahead of "checking that you are actually obeying the law". Which could be a ruse for any and all conduct. LEOs have only the power the people i.e. the Constitution provides. All other powers reside in the people. Consent of the governed and all.

Originally Posted By: txshntr

Originally Posted By: Texas Dan

I feel safe saying that few if any of us are anti-LEO. Just as we do when driving, we want to be left alone when obeying the law.

And how should they go about checking that you actually are obeying the law?

wow.... the standard in US law is called "probable cause", maybe you've heard of it??

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized"

The courts have further defined probable cause as ""a reasonable amount of suspicion, supported by circumstances sufficiently strong to justify a prudent and cautious person's belief that certain facts are probably true".

goodness folks, its shocking sometimes how much folks don't know about how the government works and what the basic premise of our law is

Some of you think that road side check points are acceptable, and LEOs should be able to just walk onto our property because they want to check our "papers" to make sure we are not committing any crimes and your are ok with that.

I think that the GW in the OP was stretching his authority a bit and if I were in OPs shoes I would have objected to him breaking into the gate by compromising the security feature. That was no different than had he took out bolt cutters and cut the lock. I would like to see some of that authority defined and refined a bit while still letting them do their job.

Please don't apologize to me, you apologize to your friends, you and I are not and never will be friends, I don't have time or the patience for the grumpy ol turd act. I have spent way too many years in construction and have came across way too many of them to waste my time on it anymore. Like I said before, Merry Christmas.

We're not friends? How devastating. I may lose sleep over it.

The GW was wrong period! Not sure why everyone is getting upset and calling names and such but just because a blind is visible doesn't give him the right to "zap" the mans gate and enter his property.

My question is, if the GWs are as understaffed, and spread out over territory as I always hear complained about, why would one waste his/her time entering a property in that manner to look for something on a whim when he/she had no evidence, probable cause or a tip when there are plenty of situations he/she could have been pursuing that were more in need of attention? Kind of reminds me of some of my city coworkers of the past. They worked much harder at getting out of work than doing what needed to be done.

My shop is full of game warden trainees.

This is really a minor issue, if you go to the Bunker, by this time next year the world as we know it will have come to an end, Obama will be declared dictator for life, the money you have in the stock market will be worthless. All of the banks will have closed and 69% of you will be standing n soup lines for you meals. The rest of you will be in FEMA Camps for civil disobedience.

So cheer up, today we have it pretty good, it is tomorrow that we die.

Law enforcement have a duty to the people, and in this country we are lucky because the majority of them are respectful of that duty. I have been in other countries and seen first hand how that duty has been abused. I do understand how some can abuse that duty, but have never experienced it myself.

Interesting and entertaining read. My viewpoint is the GW started his job off the wrong way. He can easily call the landowners and let them know he'd like to stop by and introduce himself. I've posted before that law enforcement is like all professions, most do their job professionally. But you will always have a few that don't. When this happens we can't roll over and let them get away with it. We must make them follow the same laws they are working to enforce, and adhere to the constitution without exception.

ok, good point. When we get put into the FEMA camp, the GW can get us out with that nifty radio/gate opener thingy he has. Maybe we better be real nice to him

What an interesting thread. Game Warden spots a blind on the property (deer hunting is taking place) and goes in to check it out. Instead of finding a deer camp he finds a house and introduces himself to the owner. The owner told the warden he is a hunter and has been hunting (Already taken deer hence the leg bone). The warden asks to see his license and owner cooperates and the warden leaves. The deer blind itself was all the probable cause he needed to enter the property. I see nothing wrong with this encounter. Hell they come on my place all the time and there are no visible blinds. I welcome them to come on my place, they can see and watch for things when I'm not around.

Exactly! I am 61 years old and have had GW's come multiple times - in fact just did two weeks ago - have NEVER had an issue with any of them - this is all pretty silly

do you know he was acting on a "whim?" or that he didnt have probable cause and/or a tip? does anyone here personally know the OP and can vouch for his character? nobody here knows both sides of the story. i'm not questioning the OP or his character in any way, just stating that its dumb to assume that the GW would have walked up and said "so yeah, your neighbor called and said you have 20 deer carcasses in your garage...." or "we got a tip stating...."

the GW in a county i hunt is known to randomly walk through our properties "just checking things," and i'm fine with it, we have a pretty bad problem with poachers and trespassers so i dont mind if he is out there walking around...just not when my truck is at the gate.

Yes they do. That answer should have ended this thread but there will always be those who want to argue.

Just because I'm in my boat full of fishing gear on a lake doesn't mean I'm fishing. Makes about as much sense doesn't it?

you would probably be surprised at what these checkpoints catch coming into and leaving our state. but they made you slow down and get stared at 10 times last week so you probably wouildnt care anyway.

Do the ends justify the means? Do we prefer security over liberty?

If my truck is in my driveway with the engine still warm and I'm stumbling around drunk in my yard is it ok for him to give me a DUI? I have a blind beside my house so he only stopped by to check my license even though there obviously isn't any hunting going on.

These are 50 miles INSIDE the state. Not at the border. Big difference. No lawfu inspection authority. That's why they will eventually go away. I could explain in detail but you wouldn't care anyway.....

It's not probable cause, It's inspection/investigation authority. Same as at the border and at airports. But, carry on....

NP surely someone has challenged the checkpoints, just like weigh stations, DL checks, DWI choke points, etc. They've all held up a long time

i understand where you are coming from and i know there are limits, would it be right for LE to walk through my front door and search my house without a warrant? obviously not, but if they want to knock on my door and ask me questions its really no different than some magazine salesman.

and believe me, i know we are all way too important to be slowed up by 5 mins on our trip to stop at a checkpoint, but there is a reason they "dont even check 99% of the vehicles," its a waste of everyones time to check them all, there is very specific training and experience at play at checkpoints, the same involved with officers working drug interdiction on hwys, they could care less about the busted taillight they stopped you for.

That is what the Nazis were able to sell in order to grab power. Also the movie Star Wars has a similar situation in the beginning.

Never had the chance to make Godwin's law happen though until now.

These are 50 miles INSIDE the state. Not at the border. Big difference. No lawfu inspection authority. That's why they will eventually go away. I could explain in detail but you wouldn't care anyway.....[/quote]

haha, google "falfurrias checkpoint seizure," its not on the border. i admire your passion, keep pushing NP, you will soon rid this world of all that bothers YOU.

But that could never happen in today's society.....lmfao! Now let the name calling begin, but I don't mind wearing a little tin foil if it keeps history from repeating itself!

I think the "inside the border" ones are fairly new. At the border itself inspection authority has been long established and upheld-for obvious reasons.

But it stands to reason that if you can remain totally silent and you must be allowed to go on your way (which is the case), then no legal basis exists to have detained you in the first place.

They have evolved considerably. When first established, they checked IDs. This was challenged and changed. Now, the apparent protocol is simply to ask if you are an American citizen only.

One did ask where I was going. He has no right to that information under the circumstances. Period. But, life's too short. I told him. I am not frothing at the mouth about this stuff. But we do have rights. And, if not enforced or given away-we lose them.

DWI checkpoints have evolved considerably too. Now, they have magistrates on scene or available by phone to issue warrants.

Last time I checked Dwi check points aren't legal in Tx.

Maybe I'm weird and we can debate the legalities all day, but the idea of any LEO breaching a closed gate and skulking around my private property or being detained in my travels when I am not breaking any law just crosses a line for me. Period.

I am surprised so many on here seem perfectly fine with it.

And what have your representatives said to you when you contacted them about this gross injustice in the law?

I am surprised that I totally agree with you on something . Seriously though I am very surprised as well. This is the same bunch that is willing to kill a trespasser or poacher but as long as they are in uniform it's all ok.

you said it, life's too short, sir.

excellent analogy.

Bingo, we let this happen. We make these laws.

You know, I don't have to make a project out of something in order to have an opinion on it. I have as much right to have my opinions and discuss/debate the subject as you. Ain't America grand?

Yes, and many are unmade in the courts every day. Plus we have a right to debate them/change them. Do you have an opinion on Obamacare or is it just okey dokey mighty fine with you? After all, it is law.

Thoughtful debate, questioning legislation and holding our representatives accountable are definitely good things.

So did this (link below) house-bill get passed or not ....

http://www.chron.com/sports/outdoors/article/Proposed-bill-would-give-game-wardens-more-2107481.php




.

ha ha true - they are now all discussing it amongst themselves -

Considering the number of people that get citations every year, I think the system has proven it works. Rarely does a person get a free walk when it gets to court, so the GW's must be doing it right.

When they are protected by laws that are anti-Constitution, you are right, they will come out ahead.

Don't know GW stats, but if you challenge a ticket in most cities and get a municipal court date, the odds are about 50/50 the officer will not show. In some Dallas precincts the odds are about 80/20.

NEver met a game warden that was friendly. Being a A-hole must be part of the Job Description.

Nog let's not let facts get in the way of this debate!

In all fairness, I'm betting GWs show up most every time.

how many have you met? i'm 36, been hunting and fishing all my life and i've met 2.

yeah, because those facts ("odds" actually) are so crucial to what we've been talking about for 8 pages...

It really isn't even a hassle for me. I don't mind being checked or questioned. I don't have a problem with the officers, themselves. It just seems to me that they've been given powers that conflict with our constitutional rights. But, like I said, I'm no expert on these things. Just doesn't seem quite right.

I've met several. Texas and Colorado. Only one was less than cordial.

If I'm hunting hogs with a rifle during whitetail bow season, am I illegally hunting whitetails with a rifle?

I've met 10-12. Maybe 3 were anywhere from grumpy to downright butts. During my WY moose hunt the same GW checked my moose tag 3-4 different times. Only thing I can think is he was hoping to catch me not having it on me. Acted like he was the Waffen SS. Met one complete jerk in the dove field one day.

The other 8-9 were complete professionals. Businesslike but friendly.

my experience as well.

Depends on whether you are doing it from a DEER blind or not, and whether blind can be seen clearly from the road or not.

Anectdotally, it seems they are at their worst in the dove fields and on the lakes.

I have met 5 and all were very friendly and professional. And I was checked by ol Leroy twice back in his day and he was friendly both times. He had a super bad rep in Brown county but he was pretty cool to us. Most are just doing their job and are good people just like most guys on this forum.

I do not want to be a game warden basher, half of them I have met have been professional and cordial the other half after they ripped up the constitution, were POed that that could not bust me for something. Like many on here I have more of a problem with their broad range of power.

BUT...
I have many family members and friends that are LEOs (federal, state and local level), and all of them do not like Texas Game Wardens. Their main issue is that they are too "letter of the law" instead of "spirit of the law." The next issue I hear is that they come across as arrogant with their attitude. I expect some of you LEOs to say otherwise (and I am sure their are individual stories otherwise), but that is my experience with all of the officers that I know. I always thought it odd that fellow LEOs didn't "band together" better than that.

I still great them friendly with a handshake. It usually goes a long way.

Have had about 4 encounters hunting and fishing. All were very professional and courteous.

I've met several at both the state and federal levels. Every single one were consummate professionals.

The only citation ever received was a parking ticket in Bannister WMA when I parked too close to one of the locked gates. There were two of them working together that opening day. The main one I dealt with (the one who pulled me out of the tree and walked me back to the truck) was the senior one and was probably training the junior partner. Super nice guy and when we got back to our trucks, he said to his partner, "Make it cheap on him, John." (Don't remember his real name). We continued to chat while "John" began writing and he almost lost his cool when "John" handed me a $100 parking ticket.

Regardless, I had no hard feelings at all. They have a tough job and I'm glad they make the sacrifices they do so that I can teach my kids to hunt.

Maybe I'm lucky, but all have been awesome professionals.

I did get out of the ticket though!

Look up Loyd Crabtree and see how well he fared. State refused to let his lawyers argue the legality of GW searches, probable cause, etc.

No it's apples and oranges Mike. One is on public waters, the other private land. One you were observed in the field (water) with the gear to do the activity whether you were engaged in doing it at the moment or not. Now if a warden were to come to your house because you have a fishing boat in your yard and want to check your stuff, that is a more accurate comparison. Actually, probable cause isn't about that a legal activity is taking place. It's probable cause to believe a crime has taken or is taking place. That's where I don't like the process involve with a wardens supposed authority. Just because I have a piece of land and I'm hunting doesn't mean I'm doing anything illegal. The police don't pull over every vehicle because they have probable cause. They pull you over because they observe a probable violation whether that is an automotive issue, inspection/tags or a driving violation. Then, if in that process they see/find/conclude there is a further problem such as weapons or drugs or paraphernalia for example, then they have probable cause to proceed further. But if one of our city LEO came to my house randomly and started nosing around and asking questions of me it wouldn't fly as I haven't committed a crime and will not be treated as a criminal in my home. They would have to get a warrant except under very defined conditions. Unfortunately it seems there is some understanding that fish and wildlife officers have some broad stroke authority to treat everyone as a criminal and violate peoples rights. I doubt the vast majority of those officers behave that way but I have met a few that displayed significant attitude issues toward myself and others in the party I was in. Also, as stated previously, we don't know the officer's side of the story. However I have had many neutral/good experiences with fish and wildlife LEO as well as standard LEO and do appreciate not only what they are trying to protect, but what they deal with on a regular basis.

And that's why were have superior and supreme courts to challenge to. Just most people don't have the resources, or often a solid enough case or back ground, to take it that far.

Never met one that was unfriendly.

I would bet they say the same, about the dove hunters and fishermen...

Man. Would you mind explaining the blatant conflict of you being so righteous about personal property rights here, and so blatantly anti property rights by wanting to control how high my fences are??

Merry Christmas.

Not when you have everything all good to go.

If game wardens were restricted as much as some of you would like, it would be almost impossible to ticket hunters for hunting without a license, for using lead shot on ducks, etc.

As long as you shoot during legal shooting hours and never shoot over your limit, he would never be able to check you.

The only times I've really be irritated by a game warden was in Louisiana when they drove up to our blind about 30 mins after shooting hours to check shotguns, our birds, and our licenses. We had waited all year for opening weekend and now he is checking us during the best 30 minutes of the season. That encounter didn't sit right with me. Although the guys were super friendly.

There was that one time I was fishing in my dad's skiff when I was about 14 or 15 years old and a game warden came hauling tail around a blind curve and almost hit me. He had a younger guy with him that was probably in as much shock as I was. He proceeded to check every hatch, box, tackle box, ice chest in the boat, and appeared to be disappointed I had nothing. I just chalked that up to him having a bad day.

EVERY other encounter I've ever had with a Warden has always been friendly and informative.

If this happens routinely and the same warden keeps entering the same property over and over again, I would agree with you. What if you were the landowner and he was there checking the leases and protecting your investment. I'm going to bet now that he knows a home is there and not a hunting ranch, he won't be picking the lock every weekend to check up on them.

I like seeing game wardens on the property. If wardens are commonly seen in the area there's a good chance the outlaws won't be.

Agree with both points, as hunters we know we have to meet certain guidelines and restrictions, that comes with the outdoor sport. The state is responsible to regulate, enforce, control and secure those sports. They do need some latitude to do this and it is a fine line, but we except it when we take to the field. No doubt some will go over what the law intended, some may even knowingly abuse that power and those are the ones who should be called to the carpet.

Being the state is near all private, they will be on "your land" if need be.

I would bet that a hunting license falls under the same ideology as a drivers license, not a right, but a privilege granted by the state, which comes with rules and regs you must accept.

And merry Christmas to you.

i know its the holiday season and all, i get it, but we cant have this, boo on these last two posts. just boo.

LOL you like fussin', do you?

i enjoy all the differing views on these topics but there are a few showdowns that i really look forward to:

NP v. rancher
NP v. Bobo
Bobo v. Dan
rancher v. TX
TX v. STX
STX v. RM
STX v. Bobo

and i'm sure i am missing a few....

Well, just hang on. Like the old German shepherd dog told Richard Pryor, " Hey Rich, you know I'm goin' to be chasin' you again tomorrow?"

Whew, I didn't make the list.

Hours of entertainment.

But I like the discussions too. I just hate it when folks start taking things too seriously and get butthurt because another person has a different opinion. We're all on the same team.

Merry Christmas!

I have met about 6 different GW in my lifetime. Only one was a little upset over having to stop and check us out in a dove field. Just seemed he was having a bad day. Coryell county GW, Colt Gaulden, is a good one. Talk to him at least once every couple months just to see what is going on and very professional....... He lets me know if anything is going on in the county and what he is having to spend his time on mostly during that month.

on the same team as long as we don't start running down the folks who protect us everyday

If anyone gets tore up to bad I'll send you some.

I have had way more negative than positive encounters with them in Texas. I always feel that Texas Wardens treat me as if I am a criminal and guilty of something even when I am completely legal. There is just a general distrust of the public on there behalf. Oddly my many encounters with New Mexico wardens has been 100% positive. We actually look Foward to our encounters with the New Mexico wardens because they really give you some great tips on areas to hunt. More importantly they treat you with respect and courtesy. Something that seems to be lacking in Texas GW.

My thought too.

I love a good debate, even if everyone else is wrong and don't agree with me.

I hate to hear that Erny. Everytime I meet our GW on a dirt road we stop and shoot the bull for sometimes close to an hour. We exchanged cell numbers when he first came here a few years ago and we talk almost monthly. He has a key to our locks and has been encouraged to look around when he comes our way. To bad we can't all have a GW like we have.

Lots of folks to check, they don't have the luxury of waiting until the time is right for you!

Cracks me up all the folks who think the GW is being nice because they're just good ol boys and girls and want to be your friend.

They are trained by the same folks who train our dps. They are taught to buddy up to you, shoot some bull, and get you to drop your defense.

The fact is they are not your friend. They are looking for violations in the most successful way they can, by making you feel comfortable shooting the chit.

Incredible that grown ups ain't got that figgered out.

As I understand it, the GW's job is to protect the wildlife resource and the public. I've PERSONALLY never had a bad encounter but haven't had that many encounters of any kind. I no longer want encounters of any kind.

Unfortunately, I've talked to guys that I know who got ticketed over simple mistakes. One 14 year old that I know got ticketed for an incompletely or erroneously filled out tag. That wasn't necessary and had to leave a bad impression about LEO's in general.

I also know a young guy who got ticketed for viewing deer with a loaded rifle. The kid, 19 at the time, quit hunting for the day and was driving home. On the way, he passed by a high fence operation and saw some monster bucks. He looked at them through his rifle scope. He went to court and the GW admitted that he knew the kid wasn't going to shoot but had violated the letter of the law. The JP, as usual, agreed with the GW and the Kid paid a hefty fine.

In both cases these kids learned 2 things. First is to always obey the letter of the law, the 2nd lesson wasn't all that positive about the law in general and GW's in particular.

Only a very naive person would believe that any law is equally enforced.

Sadly, it appears that that all of the legal system is now revenue oriented.

I somewhat agree with Rancher and fully agree with Dave. Couple young guys that could have been helped out with some simple correction and left with a positive impression of the GW. I was gonna call a GW in Kansas about a deer being shot with a rifle during bow but my buddies, all legal, said no way then he'll be hanging around hassling us the whole time we're here. I for one don't want the GW, or Sheriff for that matter, "popping" by my place to "visit", I have friends for that, I hunt it regular but I live there too as do wife and kids.

Disagree. Unless a GW KNOWS or has a VERY reasonable suspicion that a law is being violated, he or she should NEVER ruin a person's hunt just to check a license.

Then become a game warden.

No problem with license checks at all.

Now, during the first 30 minutes of an opening day hunt as someone mentioned? Problem.
Perfectly legal-but perfectly rude and unnecessary too.

So when your local GW spends the better part of a school day putting on outdoor programs for three different campuses showing films of wildlife adventures with exhibitions of gun safety and laws with demonstrations from local sheriff department LEO's, a local professional bowhunter marksman, and our county agent they are actually just buddying up and investigating the school system and the kids for possible past and future violators of our criminal and game laws. You know I never even thought of that way.

Exactly my point. Jacking with prime time is absolutely unnecessary, unless again, a law is being violated. For example, the GW can see a hunter not wearing the required hunter orange on public land, or carrying a rifle instead of a bow in bow only areas, etc.

I thought it was pretty obvious I was talking about GW checks.

Working with the schools is good PR, they didn't do that when I was a kid. But everything they do to get you to trust them has a primary and secondary purpose.

beat me to it.

They are all out to get ya. The number one reason they became a GW was to violate your rights or ruin a hunt, and they were trained by the DPS on how to be an arse. Hell, they are even mean to kids...and give em tickets for pointing a loaded gun at deer in a HF off the dadgum highway. Oh, the nerve.

As usual...there IS one thing that is pretty obvious

Nice crawfishing right there

I wonder if feeding them a grilled steak with bake potato and an occasional golf trip works wonders with them too

There are Barney Fifes in every law enforcement organization and unfortunately I seem to always get him which also unfortunately skews my perspective on them. In addition there are some crooked ones as well which creates some issues for us but at the end of the day those are in the minority. I'm not a fan of State Troopers at all...in fact 90% of the ones that I've came into contact with seem to be Barney Fife's brother but that being said I know there is one nice one out there cuz when he had every right to issue me a ticket he didn't...

It does....but you better ease into it. Otherwise it would be considered a bribe

You can invite them to Varmint hunt on your property too. Saw you had a few cats running around, maybe you should give yours a call

Really, we are just friends having a good time, no other motive...

How many times have you been written a ticket by a Barney Fife that you weren't doing anything wrong?

Could it be your attitude towards them that causes the problems? I know there are bad ones out there but I have yet to have an interaction with a DPS trooper that didn't turn out well.

No, he likes the ones that let him go, go figure.

Prior to beef prices going up, catfish & hush puppies fresh from the grease was like a get out of jail free card...

I don't think I have ever had a bad experience with a DPS trooper.

Me either, or a GW. Sheriff's on the other hand...

Most of my encounters have been on the lake or coast. Have managed to miss the wardens on bird hunts.

same but I don't hunt on day leases either, I think they go to target rich environments, especially when I've been lobbying my legislature to drop their fuel allowance to $250 per month......

He isnt afraid to Heiney Smootch

Offer beer...makes you look good and they won't take one

thats what nav does with the natty cuz he knows they wont take it even if its free

Back in the 80's the game warden in Grayson County was disliked by everyone including himself. I can't remember his name, but even wardens in surrounding counties felt he made life hard on them. He was a big supporter of crows being a Federal Migratory bird.

Them folks get off duty at some point....and will drink all your beer.

Over the last eight years, all of my experiences with GW's have been very positive except one time.

The one negative time involved a GW I'd never met before. It seemed he was on a mission to write a violation no matter what. He looked at everyone's licenses, rifles, shotguns, pistols and knives. Then, he went through all the trailers room by room, closets, refrigerators and even the bathrooms. Whenever he came across a backpack or suitcase, he told the owner to empty it out. Next, he started on all the hunting vehicles. After that, he went after the ice chests and coolers.

He was there a total of about an hour and a half.

Finding nothing, I could tell he was frustrated as he finally walked off to his truck without saying a word. All I could figure is that he may have gotten a report of something illegal going on before he came out.

It just seemed a little extreme to me. Never saw him again.

Other than that, all my encounters have been good or great.

One time, my brother and I were driving around in our ancient old top drive at the back of the ranch and it pooped out. No big deal but it was a pretty healthy four mile walk back to camp for two 60+ year old guys in 100 degree heat.

My brother had an idea of calling the GW as they have all of our blind locations on GPS. He called, and come to find out, they were about five minutes from the ranch. He gave them our location.

Two GW's we knew showed up in about twenty minutes, strapped a tow line on our truck and hauled us back to camp. We offered them lunch, beer and even a hunt for helping us. They wouldn't have any of it. Nice guys!

Forget 911. I will call the GW first if there is an accident since they know the layout of our ranch so much better than EMS.

I recommend getting to know the GW in your area. Most are pretty good people just trying to do their job. My experience is once they see you're good people, they will leave you alone.


Stones1950

Exactly.....people think it is weird that I shake a LEO's hand before and after an encounter. I see it as a sign of respect from one man to another. Hell I will shake their hand even if they give me a ticket, after all they are only doing their job. My dad used to tell me, it doesn't cost anything to be nice and polite. If you don't like their actions, take it up with the appropriate party, not throw a hissy fit at the time.

Despite whether any LEO was an azz or a righteous dude to me I have never had one do something I felt violated my rights or give me a ticket for something I didn't do. In fact I've had just the opposite experience. Most opportunities they have given me a warning or told me what needed to be done to correct the issue.

Do I wish they would catch the damn road hunters who shoot deer on our place from the road and only take the backstraps? Hell yes. Do I wish they wouldn't show up in the duck marsh at prime time just to do a check? Of course. But overall I would rather have them out there trying than not.

Disagree. Unless a GW KNOWS or has a VERY reasonable suspicion that a law is being violated, he or she should NEVER ruin a person's hunt just to check a license.[/quote]

The possibility of being checked helps a lot of people remember to buy their license, in my day it was called self compliance enforcement. I guess today it could be called "whining enforcement".

Admin note: Fixed the quotes to ensure that I am being quoted for exactly what I said.

Now I'm not exactly sure what you're saying sir, but I am sure "the possibility of getting checked" hasn't gone anywhere. It's alive and well. As it should be.

But I'll also try to expound upon what I said... I'm not saying that GW policies should state that it's unlawful to do any license checks at anytime. But that as a matter of practice, unless a law is being broken, GWs shouldn't willy nilly check licenses during those prime hunting times we all hold dear. It's ultimately unnecessary because if they don't have a license during the hunt, they're not going to have a license when the GW checks them when they get back to their truck.

Let's put it another way. What if a person was on a $4,000 guided two-day hunt, and a GW decided to check the party simply for licenses one of those days during evening prime time. It's not unreasonable to say the GW may have ruined that evening's hunt, and to the hunter, that's lost money.

I have no issues being checked at all. Heck, GWs have even scored my deer for me before. I want to have good working relationships with my GWs (and I always have) because I want them to come out to my place and help keep poachers off of it.

But check me in camp before the hunt. Check me when I'm getting back to camp. Check me during dinner. I don't care. But don't come out to the stand boogering everything up to check my license during prime time. It's not necessary.

A professional GW (and 99% of them are!) knows that doing his/her job successfully largely depends on folks working with him to identify folks not doing the right thing. If they act capriciously to every citizen they encounter and earn a reputation as such, they'll be the lone GW that no one talks to and dare I say, game violations will run rampant in their area.

Let me tell you a story that happened many years ago that I am not very proud of. Myself and 2 of my friends were dove hunting. It was a milo field that had been harvested. We were young and had never seen this many doves. We shot quite a few more than the law allowed. We put the excess doves in a paper sack that one of my friends carried. We were walking back to the truck through some brush when a GW stepped out in front of us. My friend dropped the sack of doves in the brush. The GW asked how the hunting was. Checked licenses and shell capacities of the shotguns. Then asked my friend what was in the sack he dropped in the brush and told him to go and get it. The CW emptied out the sack and asked who shot the doves. My friend said that he did. The GW then told us that before we lied to him any more that each dove was a separate offence and that we could be fined up to $200 for each offence. Now he ask who shot the doves? We told him we all did and he just fined us for exceeding the bag limit and the fine was $50. Like I said not very proud of what we did but a very good experience with a wise GW.

I agree. They are either lacking in intelligence to check you before the hunt to give you the chance at multiple violations or they do it just because they can to disrupt your hunt.

Thanks for sharing. I think if we're honest, most of us have been in a similar situation, whether caught or not. I also think that probably represents the vast majority of GWs and I don't believe that as a rule they're out to get me.

That's a pretty broad brush you're painting with. I can tell you for a fact some LEO's are nice to people because they believe in treating people with courtesy and respect until the person gives them a reason not to. Believe it or not, sometimes that's all that's going on.

why should anyone want to kiss arse of an LE like that? GW or other.

They get paid off of taxes that the gov takes from working people. They work too, but they don't produce a product or service that gets taxed. As the gov passes more and more laws, they have to hire more and more people to enforce them.

I only owe them some basic respect and compliance with the law and they in turn must respect and protect my rights under the law. I would imagine they swear an oath like other LEs do.

I don't think STX meant that seriously, that was a jab at Trex for a comment in another thread. Inside joke if you will.

There are good LEOs and crappy LEOs-just like in any profession.

It's basically about courtesy and respect. Professionalism. The vast majority have it. Some don't. Lack of it is way more prevalent as you work your way down the food chain.

I can't define it but I know it when I see it. Crappy attitude. Treating you like you are John Dillinger. Lording over you. Being a smarta** for no reason. Basically just because they have a badge and know they can. Just the "power trip" syndrome.

Fortunately, only a very small percentage fall into this category. You just remember them a lot longer.

just don't forget, if you think things are going bad for you, the best thing to do is comply and shut your mouth. to heck with the good ole boy shooting the breeze conversation, just shut your trap and comply with their commands and ask if you are free to go or are you being detained or arrested. If you are innocent, you can beat the rap, but you may not beat the ride.

Reading some of the posts about LEO's and GW's strong arming folks makes me wonder if some of our members are borderline criminals/lawbreakers, with a reputation following them around like rifleman.

rancher, is that you?



its a numbers game, there are 50k+ members here, of course there are some outlaws amoung us....

I have you know I am a strictly by the book kind of person.

Which book again?

Coloring book.

Don't see the comic books I go off of.

Game Wardens are people too and like all people, there can be good and bad. Just be courteous and professional to them and given them respect. Like with any LEO if you feel wronged, take it up after the fact with the proper channels. You want to be on the good side of the GW in the areas you hunt and fish as there is typically one or two GW's to a county (sometimes more than one county). There can be no better fried for your land, resources and you than a GW. I keep the phone number for mine on me at all times and call him if I'm going to be out hunting hogs at night or see anything suspicious.

Earl

Typically the situation people who get "caught" in dictate their viewpoint of the encounter...

Long time ago, my brother drove out to the Panhandle for a pheasant hunt. He got his limit and threw the birds in his truck.

A year later, he was driving back from dove hunting in South Texas and got stopped by a GW. When my brother opened his truck to show the GW his take for the day, the GW spotted a single pheasant feather down near the wheel well.

Yep, a ticket and a fine.


Stones1950

The first thing Ive always done when getting a new lease is contact the G/W and get to know him..cause by showing him you have nothing to hide..goes along way..ours is great and has helped us several times...

May moons ago the GW would stop me just about every time I left my lease...it was always at the gate and he was always very nice. I finally asked him why he seemed be watching our lease so closely...he said that a lease member had requested that he keep an eye out for some "uninvited" guests...I laughed and told him that I had left the message with the SO...he laughed and I gave him a key to our locks...he never stopped me again but did come by our campfire on occasion...

rick

IMO this GW's approach was poorly suited to "getting to know" his area and landowners, especially entering the gate uninvited without fully explaining himself. I would be disturbed if this happened to me.

By that game warden's account I've killed guinea's, chickens, deer, turkeys, doves, keystone lights, zeigon Bock's, rainbow trout.....

Ain't that like hauling off your beer cans for recycling, and getting busted for an open container?