B&C Scoring of Captive Deer

The Boone and Crockett Club states that it does not approve of using their scoring system for captive deer:

http://www.boone-crockett.org/news/featured_story.asp?area=news&ID=236

As it should be.

SCI does it i think

Not sure why they could just say that the animals couldn't be entered. I think that any club should be able to accept or deny any entry they want to keep in line with their beliefs and history.

Wonder if B&C has a patent or copyright on their scoring system?

I have no problem with their stance on free range.

However what I disagree with is when they state:

The Club's records program was established in 1906 as a way of detailing species once thought headed for extinction. Today, the B&C scoring system is used to collect data on free-ranging big game. These data reflect successful conservation efforts, population health and habitat quality. Biologists compare and contrast records to improve local management strategies as well as state and federal wildlife policies.

In my opinion:

Any animal making the B&C record book is that special 1 in a million free range animal. My concerns have always been. How can data collected from such a small portion of a particular species be used to improve management strategies

I believe the B&C minimums are to high to be used as any form of free range management strategy. It is like trying to manage a 4 leaf clover.


O'well you know what they say about opinions.

It's no management strategy, but if you look at the stats over the years, you can easily see the increase of trophies entered in modern times, say, the last 20 years, and extrapolate some indication of the improvement (or lack) in conservation/management.

The Club irks me sometimes with their holier than thou stance on many topics within the hunting community, which I think are more divisive than helpful for our way of life.

great move boone and crocket... an even more solidified elitist stance towards and already threatened pastime for americans.

They could care less about our private property rights.

We need to becareful what we support

here we go...

A result of TDM principles and research brought to light by the ones they despise....oh the irony

I better look in the cupboard for some corn. This may have some legs.

FYBC!!!

there. I said it.

i'm all ears

So educate me on the hate for B&C.

I am not now, nor ever have been, a member and honestly do not know the back story.

Is there a difference in the way they score deer for SCI and for B&C?

First from a legal perspective unless it is trademarked or has a utility patent they don't have a leg to stand on. No I'm not a lawyer but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn at some point in my life.
Second I don't have problem with their position, they are focused on free ranging animals and are all about the habitat required for them to survive and maximize their potential. They don't recognize genetically select bred animals or fenced in animals in their trophy award recognition. So what. It's their club and their prerogative.
Is a trophy more impressive if it comes from a place that the animals can truly come and go as they so desire as opposed to even a HF with 10's of 1000's of acres. It is to me but that's my point of view you are entitled to yours.

No real hate here, just wish the club took different directions at times. Used to be a member, which is required to enter a deer in the books, but let it lapse after that. Received a quarterly magazine, which is not about hunting per se, but about hard core conservation (most articles were written by or about scientists and their studies it seemed), and about pimping The Club and selling their books.

On the Book of Faces, all they ever share is rednecks doing dumb stuff in the woods which many will say represents us all. Lately, they've been on a crusade to rid the world of long range hunting.

They have their place and do some great things for conservation I'm sure, but in my eye, the stands they make on certain issues divide the hunting community more than they unite it.

On topic, they can do whatever they want with their scoring system. But these days, no one really cares what an animal "nets" anyway.

it's their club and their rules, the problem is rather than choose a methodology to unite hunters, they are choosing to further draw lines in the sand on the basis of pure snobbish elitism.

The (alleged) reason their club was founded was for wild game conservation. They proclaim to be for scientific management techniques, but when someone throws a fence up to actually see the validity of their program, and can manage their land better, B&C sticks their nose up at them.
Not only do they not allow the animals in the book, they are going on a campaign fighting against "captive" animals. Stating that "captivity" is any high fence ranch. 30 acres, or 30,000 acres, they claim it's "captive".

Perhaps in 1900 when the US population was roughly 1/6 of what it is today, access to "free range" animals was a little easier for hunters. B&C has refused to change their tune and address any issues with land access issues for normal people, and are only turning their scoring system into an even more eltist system year by year as land access prices increase along with the population and growth of towns and cities.

F 'em, and feed 'em fish heads...

Interesting views here.

Carry on...

I happen to agree with their stance. That being said, I can tell you that at least one of the recent presidents of the organization owns a high fence ranch.

B&C-L...Boone and Crockett, Livestock

Sheesh...

Pioneers in conservative????

B&C basically stood side by side with Priscilla Feral on the Scimitar Oryx.. Great conservative!!!

X2

tis how they do it in do ta Gov. shut down i tip my hat ta U, sir.

B&C has a good opinion.

I think folks will still use the scoring system, they just won't be able to tack on the phrase "Boone and Crockett" or "B&C" at the end of it.

I think it is a bold step for the organization and is getting applause from professionals in the wildlife biology field.

I think it is commendable they stand up for their opinions and don't want to be associated with deer farming practices, regardless of offending some folks with lots of money or people with clouded views on what "hunting" is.

The latest. It just keeps going. Today B&C shared a picture from the Book of Faces page of "Texans for Saving Our Hunting Heritage".

I am unable to find this link on the B&C website. I know Jenny Sanders is getting a lot of ink these days in newspaper op-eds, but I was unaware that the B&C Club had hitched its wagon to her outfit.

Can you help make the connection for me? I admit to being just a pup when it comes to surfing the Internet.

Bobo, I've never heard of an alliance between Feral--or any anti hunting group--and B&C. Are you certain about this?

When you decide to draw a hardline in the sand against something and be vocal about it. You loose your ability to pick and choose your support for or against. You are one way or the other. B&C has made it very clear how they feel about restricted private property access and restricted wildlife access.


http://m.humanesociety.org/news/press_releases/2012/04/federal_rule_limiting_captive_040512.html

It looks like HSUS has unilaterally crawled in bed with B&C and P&Y....and without the endorsement of either, I'm betting.

Anytime you make a position statement on a controversial issue, you're bound to anger someone......as B&C has done. Just ask hunters here regarding AR counties or HF/LF. Frankly, I admire anyone, or any organization, who shuns the middle of the road and is unafraid to say what he believes. The only thing in the middle of the road are dead possums.

I'm sure it's with out endorsement, but their statement leaves little to provide an exist.

B&C should stick to conservation moments geared toward public lands. They obviously have an issue with private property via access and restrictions caused by it.

It's not on their website, it's on their Facebook page. If you are on the Book of Faces, find B&C and Like their page. You'll be able to see where they shared the above photo from the aforementioned group. Also, if you read the comments, you'll see where some folks have outed the leader of said organization as having connections to and benefiting from a high fence hunting operation.

Why are people trying to make this a high fence debate? I am thinking it's mainly geared towards deer breeding.

Not all bucks behind fences have a known pedigree.

B&C doesn't diferenciate between the two. They consider it the same. 20k acres or 3acres they don't care. Unless it's an island then apparently they don't care

You may be right, because I don't know there history, but Where do you get that information? They are specially saying captive bred deer. Or are you referencing them saying they are captive in any high fence operation?

This is there stanow from their website:

Tuesday, December 16, 2014 - The Boone and Crockett Club today reaffirmed its objection and rejection to the use of its name and scoring system in conjunction with captive deer and elk. So says an official resolution presented and signed by Club president William A. Demmer.

The resolution was ratified at Boone and Crockett's 127th annual meeting, which concluded Dec. 7, 2014 in St. Petersburg, Fla. The resolution reads:

"The Boone and Crockett Club scoring system exists to document the successful conservation of wild game animals in North America. The Boone and Crockett Club objects to and rejects any use of or reference to the Boone and Crockett Club or its scoring system in connection with antlers/horns grown by animals in captivity."

They have always discriminated against any high fenced deer. Even native deer behind a 20,000 acre high fence are not allowed in their books.

Which is fine with me. Their game, their rules. But, when anyone declares war on my preferred way to hunt/provide hunts, then they better expect a fight.

Any fence that deters them from coming and going they consider captive. They have always excluded the entry of HF to their books. They have just gone a step further and degrade other hunters trophies, with words.

I personally don't give a rats azz what the folks at B&C think.

I think it's ironic that their club is named after two of the most famous market hunters, who didn't give 2 chitz about conservation. Kind of explains B&C's lack of conservation knowledge I guess.

sums it up nicely

From B&C website:

"Please note that the Boone and Crockett Club score charts are protected by copyright laws. The score charts reproduced in this section are for personal use only and not acceptable for entry in the Club's Awards Program. Official score charts can be obtained from official measurers or the Club's headquarters at a nominal price. "

I must be missing something. How do they stop you from having a deer..any deer...measuring it using the B&C scoring system and saying what it scores?....I suspect they do not want the "Boone and Crockett" name associated with high fence and/or deer breeding advertisements.

Obviously I applaud them calling a spade a spade. It is their scoring system and they have every right to weigh in on any aspect of the system they devised. You don't like it-use the SCI or Buckmasters or water displacement system. Think I'll renew my membership.

Just don't forget to submit your draw application to antelope island

No joke. And is it REALLY "hunting" when you go chase sheep up a mountain with no cover??? Kinda like shooting fish in a barrel IMO. Not that I'm opposed to it.... Just call it what it is, shooting sheep on a rock.

Why not just make a seperate scoring system and records for high fenced deer. Same as TPWD recognizes fish caught on private water, which IMO is the same as high fencing. Just have a seperate category, let people choose if they want to celebrate others trophys, no matter where they were obtained. Just my .02 cents. Doesn't Impact me one way or another.

SCI is very similar to B&C they primarily just don't have all the symmetry deductions and they handle abnormal points a little differently on typicals. What they do is have a free range category and an "Estate" category which is high fence.

B&C doesn't recognize trophies that were taken from the late great Santa Rosa Island, even though the island was nearly 90 square miles and no fences anywhere. Apparently the Pacific Ocean served to imprison the elk and mule deer, which weren't considered native despite having lived there for nearly a century.

I hunted Santa Rosa twice, and the animals were as wild and elusive as any on the mainland. The management program simply allowed the animals to live long enough to reach their trophy potential, and some great trophies were taken. But you couldn't enter them in the Book. Otherwise, my mule deer would have been my 7th animal to be listed there.

Once the Park Service appropriated the island, all the deer and elk were exterminated, the last ones by government sharpshooters from a helicopter. Our tax dollars at work.....

B&C a scoring system that punishes a wild animal for not growing perfect antlers or horns (deduction) How stupid

Stupidest post of year nominee.

He left out a few facts from their facebook

Texans for Saving Our Hunting Heritage It should be noted that animals hunted behind a high fence have never been eligible for Boone & Crockett record books. However, those animals may still be scored using the B&C system. It is our understanding that this statement by Boone & Crockett is not directed at high fences or hunting wild native deer behind high fences. It is specifically directed at captive-bred and raised deer.

Texas Big Game Awards has used the B&C system with their permission and TBGA accepts HF deer.

that is a "fact"? sounds more like texas for saving our hunting hertitage's interpretation of B&C's stance.

You got shafted since they accept Antelope Island, and every island in Alaska

B&C also accepts entries on bison from Custer State Park in SoDak. It's 80,000 acres, but high fenced, at least in most places (I suppose a loner bull with wanderlust could stroll down a road and out an entrance, since there's not a locked gate that I've seen). So go figure. I'm not complaining, as I have a buff in the current 13th edition Book, #34 all-time, and complete with a photo of handsome dawaba and his trophy bull.

It has always rankled me that the B&C scoring system puts such a high emphasis on symmetry, at the expense of mass, points, and most every other criteriae you can come up with. I believe most hunters, even B&C members, believe an animal should get awarded for everything it grows.

But this is a minor sticking point. I am a life member of B&C, as well as REMF and the Sheep Foundation. All three of these organizations believe strongly in supporting conservation, education, and ethical hunting. All three plow thousands of dollars each year into programs that serve to conserve our hunting heritage for generations to come.

I believe that Aldo Leopold, were he alive today, would support that philosophy. I do too.

Congrats on your bull. But I don't think anyone's saying these types of organizations don't do good conservation work. Of course they do.

But lately, B&C has overtly taken to the airwaves of social media to denigrate various types of hunting and deer breeding. Captive deer is only one aspect. They recently published their stand on long range hunting as unethical.

Their stances are obnoxious and divide the hunting community at a time when we need to stick together. This is NOT conservation. No one would expect B&C to endorse high fence hunting, but their tactics drive a wedge and will eventually lead them to becoming known for what they're against, instead of what they're for. They're elitist tactics are in fact defining the term "Fudd". Next they'll be looking at AR platforms for hunting and that no ethical hunter should carry that many bullets into the woods. See where this can go/is going?

B&C needs to take a step back and focus on the things they're for. Dividing a community only leads to its detriment.

Yeah, kry226, B&C has probably over-reached on the whole captive breeding issue. With the certain outcry that's going to ensue, I bet in time they'll back off a little bit. You may remember a few years back that the Elk Foundation took a stand on favoring wolf reintroduction. This angered a lot of hunters and ranchers. REMF has since modified that position to say that they still support the wolf program, BUT wolves should be managed and hunted just like any other game animal.

FWIW, in the latest issue of BUGLE, REMF (in a op-ed titled "Why Shoot Long If You Can Hunt Close") has joined B&C in also taking a critical position against the wasteful trend in long range shooting at big game animals, and the increased wounding that can occur with the indiscriminate flinging of hopeful bullets.

I don't believe that these organizations are purposely trying to divide the hunting world. They're just asking us to think ethically in how we behave in the field. The non-hunting public will ultimately decide if we will continue to enjoy our sport for generations to come. And like it or not, we are under scrutiny by a voting public that is clueless about wildlife conservation....but they can quote Bambi, chapter and verse. Therefore, it's up to each of us to always put our best foot forward.

I am all about putting our best foot forward, but the problem I have is that they are determined to be the judge on what is ethical. And I have yet to see where B&C has differentiated between a capable long range shooter/hunter and "the indiscriminate flinging of hopeful bullets". (Not saying they haven't, but I haven't seen it. And if they have, that's very un-B&C-like of them to do so.) It's all the same to them. The other problem is that they're bringing under scrutiny things that would have been largely ignored had they stayed out of the fray. PETA could care less about long range or high fence hunting, its all hunting to them. And I don't believe most of the public has staunch opinions on it either, until it's brought before them and they are asked to give an opinion. Of course, some idiot deer breeders and their stupid actions are also bringing some light to the situation as well, to be fair.

Society eventually decides what is ethical. I don't need B&C taking it upon themselves to single-handedly define hunting ethics. As a hunting community, we really need to focus on the enforcement of game laws and gracefully shunning those who break them. The law breakers get the attention of our society, not the long range or high fence hunters. If I want to shoot a deer at 400 yards, I'm going to freaking shoot a deer at 400 yards. Or book a high fence hunt for that matter.

From a former member, "Hey B&C, shut up."

B&C has as much right to weigh in on issues of hunting ethics as anyone else.

It's not those who voice their opinions that are dividing us, it's those who engage in practices that most objective folks have a problem with (like shooting penned animals, breeding wildlife for self-aggrandizement purposes only, and unnecessarily turning hunting into long-range target practice) that cause the divisions.

I get they don't like being called out, but-too bad. I'm glad the tide is turning and these things are being called out for what they are.

Of course they have a right to weigh in. But no tide is turning, and your point is very subjective and assumes a little too much. All that is brewing is a fight, and it will not be good for the hunting community. And at its end (if it ever does end), we will all have less rights than we do today. Hope that makes everyone feel better.

Personally, as long as a person is obeying THE LAW, they can engage in whatever hunting practices they wish, EVEN THOSE WITH WHICH I DO NOT AGREE. Because I know we'll all lose in the end as there are certain things you cannot separate. You cannot separate hunting from the 2A, for example. You cannot separate high fences from land owner rights. You cannot separate long range hunting from our hunting rights. Actions in one causes undesirable effects in the other.

That's the slippery slope many folks choose to ignore.

allow me ta interpitate. pro's vs con's ing with android. tis getting culled in here

I can separate them easily.

Bag limits separate how many animals we can kill from how many we can't. Night separates day, and you can't hunt at night. The calendar separates seasons.There are dozens of other examples. For the most part, no one has an issue with them.

Many states separate the HF issue very easily-they simply don't allow them.

Things change-including attitudes. And laws often change with the changing attitudes. It's a fact of life. IMO the "slippery slope" is continuing with practices most find distasteful (at the very least) and abhorrent (at the very worst).

tis amazing how Fast the thread about Niight hunting for deer legalized disapeared

OK, you win.

what he's trying ta say tis its all about the big BUCKS

Maybe to you and others, but it's a point that is valid. When you want to decide for others what "hunting" is, then it shouldn't surprise you that others have differing opinions. When folks denigrate hunting impenetrable brush in a south Texas high fenced ranch, while hunting sheep that are not going to leave the area MUCH smaller than the ranch (with virtually no cover), then I'm gonna point out the hipocricy. Regardless of what u think.

I need more details on this water displacement system method, it is the first time I have heard of it.

We all know in a week or two they will be crying in their beer because they passed up Johnny football in the draft! Morons!

Where have I heard this argument before

High Gun clip capacity ... who needs 10 rounds while hunting, plinking, varmint control... Outlaw magazine capacity.
Why does a person need night vision scopes, night vision spotting scopes.... There is no night hunting
Many states don't allow "Right to Carry" so we should follow
Things change- including attitudes. And laws often change with changing attitudes.. Gun's kill , it's the guns fault, we need more gun control.
Don't worry it's not a "slippery slope" NP is on it.

Just remember we just need another law

We don't want your guns just some types . We don't want to stop hunting just some types.

Ha! Obsess much?

kinda reminds me of me caveman days. uncle Fred & Barnie taking Pebbles & Bam Bam . i have cheap posts

of the B&C. & keeping an open mind. That statment reminds me of the little girl who pulled the trigger under suppervision of a NRA member. PRAYERS

colt.45 I guess I used to many This coming from the king.

I know some simple minded people never see the connection between gun laws and hunting laws. Their also the one's who believe " The check is in the mail" and "I'm here from the Government and I'm here to help". Remember it never stops at one law or one last restriction.

B&C only deals with free-ranging wild, native North American big game animal. Their condemnation of HF far outreaches North American Big Game.

tis not the king sir. they me in the form so your from the Gov. tis honour ta meet ya, sir. Gov. does more for rich than does for working person. tis used ta getting laughed & made fun of. Best Wishes of B&C

That's my point BC will take a public draw animal out of a pen, but won't some PRIVATE HF ranches that are bigger then that.

B&C has no place setting an ethical standard for all hunters other than what's legal .

I hope they way in on Govs. tags and reservations soon also. Love to seeing them continue to cut their own throats. They have already started down that road.

Conservation groups should stick to conservative

Measurement of antler volume by determining how much water a set of horns displaces. Takes away the bonus for spread which is just "air", and also focuses ,ore on mass carried throughout the frame and tines. You see it some in deer breeders that were looking for a way to give credit to how much bone a deer could grow.

Note- no comments about the use of "horns", and "bone".

Its a shame they can't use the B&C scoring system on these deer.

NP you think they will get in trouble for posting B&C scores? Or a pass since they are PUBLIC and not PRIVATE? Or do you just not care because it doesn't effect they way you hunt in tx since you are a landowner

Chap WMA photo album

I think they have already whizzed on too many people's parade, they are making "horse apples" over stuff like this and their membership might start dropping. When the money starts flowing a little slower the "right" thing to do can change in mid stream.

Truth.

Considering how many places are now feeding deer like cattle, putting in food plots, feeding year round, feeding protein for antler growth and all of the other enhancement additives. Are there many natural range fed deer left in Texas?

There is not much difference between a low fence feed pen and a high fence feed pen. Both places are feeding protein and food for antler and body growth. Both sides of the fence try to have good food plots, specifically designed for deer habit and nourishment, just like the cattlemen do for their livestock. Are we becoming deer ranchers instead of hunters?

I think the move is symbolic, not practical. And they know this. There will be no attempts to enforce anything.

I do think we Texans are very myopic on this issue because it is such a part of our hunting fabric. I do believe the tide is turning on the issue. It will not hurt B&C-fair chase has been their focus since their beginning. May even gain them support.

FWIW, Mossback is even smart enough to throw SCI scores out for their AI guided animals.

Regardless if symbolic, it's still slanted to end public hunts and research areas such as the Chap and Kerr.

Slapping those guys to their face their hunts and trophies where canned meaningless trophies that are destroying hunting in America, is apparently what B&C is about now.

Most Indian reservations do the same, but that's because of the lack of deductions

The moment the private land was created we became game ranchers, even more so with the creation of the rifle. If this wasn't true... Then why restocking efforts on almost every game animal in North America at some point in history

This Guys place (TXSHNTR)...get into a Feeding Debate with him, Daves place is Natural Range as they get. If a piece of Corn hits the ground there it looks like Food Stamp day in Watts..

I've still yet to have a deer on a protein feeder at our place...the crows and coons are B&C quality though.

It's frustrating. All I want is 1 picture of a deer eating at a protein feeder and it would be worthwhile. Until then those feeders are just tying up cameras because I'm too stubborn to call it a lost cause.

Shouldn't have put a HF around the feeder....

There's no fence..and the deer just walk past it. I even put it on my main deer trail well away from stands.

Well you have to put feed in it for them to eat out of it

I'm on protein brand #9. 9 out of 10 coons prefer Producer.

Me too. I bought one from dawaba and finally gave up. Wonder if he will give me a refund?

I just think they have more than enough to eat. The deer behind the Inlaw's house tear it up, but they basically bed under it.

You have to much natural food around and you have to Stump Break em...Why cant yall stay on Topic

Wait till these discover it...They love some 21% Sissel and Eckols

I'd buy that feeder from you if you are ever head down this way. What size is it?

I'd feed that one nosler brand.

Evangelist. yagh, tis owned a used Ford & didn't haveta Fix Or Repair Dayly. twas a lot of up keep though, couldn't a ford a new one, back indemnity days couldn't get no credit. $7.22 an hour. that twas big bucks, from what usedta make. yagh they called me easy money. tis all this post tis worth.

I can't remember-either 600 or 1000# I think. And I would be more than happy to let you take it off my hands for what I gave for it. I can't remember that either though. I think it was $300. Maybe dawaba will remember the details. It is an All Seasons free-choice trough feeder.

But IDK where you are either. I don't get west of I35 very often though. If you ever get to Corsicana and want it just let me know and I'll load it up and bring it back here.

Gravity or trough?

Trough

Those don't work too well in our hood with the moisture.

Not a fan of the trough style. Is it this style trough? If so I'll have to pass on it. You should not have a problem selling it though. Lot of guys use that style down south.
https://www.allseasonsfeeders.com/ProductDisplay.aspx/1272_1000_lb_Trough_Feeder

A domino laid is a domino played. Sorry, NGP.....

Seriously, it is a 1000# All Seasons trough feeder. We had nine of them going at once out near Albany, where they worked well. But moisture can be a problem during rainy periods or high humidity. I can see where that could be a issue in EasTex. Out in the Big Country the deer would empty a feeder in less than 3 weeks, so spoilage was seldom a problem. Where the deer aren't as thick or as hungry--as the coons always seem to be--free choice feeders might be more frustrating.

EDIT: just so there's no hard feelings NGP, I'll treat you to a five dollar foot long if you want to meet up somewhere and talk about your big Arizona ram.

LOL oh well, a man can hope. I have a big boar hog that is quite fond of it-he puts his front feet up on the trough and goes to town.

No bribery needed to talk sheep hunting. Especially at the moment.

Put that thing down in the woods under the canopy and put corn in it....or out in the middle of a grown up field if you happen to have one.

Which practice is which then?

I think you overestimate the number of people that find long range shooting distasteful or abhorrent. It is just about universal that the smallest of minorities ends up making the largest amount of noise.

You don't like it? Fine - you have a choice not to participate. I don't care for bow hunting right now, so I don't bow hunt. But I'm not on a bandwagon to get it outlawed either.

The same could be said for Kansas and the entire midwest as well. Except their food plots are called farms. But the serve the exact same purpose, and even have many of the same captivity characteristics because of the relative lack of cover in those areas with respect to what we find here in Texas.

That is awesome lol

I have hunted on high fence over the years and have heard all kinds of people tell me all the different reasons as to why HF hunting isn't really hunting.

This last summer I ran across a small HF place that was a really good deal and bought it, I have had almost everyone of the people that said they would never hunt HF for what ever their reasons, ask me if they can hunt on my HF fence place and of course for free since we are friends.

And when I ask them about their never hunt HF policy for what ever reason they all have been like what are you talking about I would love to hunt your place.

Now I am not saying that everyone is that way but most everyone I have talked to is acting like that.
So with most people I think they just use the talking points about HF hunting hunting instead of saying "I can't or won't pay the money" to hut HF.

Majority of people will shoot anything regardless of its location, just will classify it differently.

FIFY

That's true too.

I would not shoot an elk if it were free, just have no desire to shoot one. So there is an exception I guess.

You mean if I told you that you could kill them all off your muley lease you'd leave them all alone to outcompete the deer?

Well played.

But I know his answer.. He would call us

To shoot one and leave it lay, no. To shoot one for money, no. To shoot one for free for the meat, no. I have no desire to shoot one. Don't care if anyone on the lease shoots them though. I would prefer they send hunters in to kill them all, with a requirement they shoot every aoudad they can find.

You do them just like we do big sows, shoot them and point someone who wants to actually touch them in the direction of the carcass.

I don't think the number is as small as you think. There is a growing groundswell of the hunting community willing to give their unvarnished opinions on subjects like LR "hunting" and HF "hunting". Here are a couple of paragraphs from an article in the current issue of "Sports Afield" on the current LR hunting craze:

Animals rights folks don't care if you're shooting them point blank or a mile, caged or free. Sportsmen will never win over the crazies that just don't understand.

It's not about winning them over. It's about not giving them ammo in the battle for the hearts and minds of the non-hunters that make up about 75% of society.

Agree, disagree, whatever-the point is groups like B&C and outdoor publications depend on the support of hunters for their very existence. The fact that they are increasingly willing to take a stand against HF and extreme LR "hunting" speaks volumes about how they perceive the hunting community as a whole feels about the subjects. It is not just "fringe" opposition. It is fast morphing into mainstream ostracism.

Would be willing to say archery hunting on TV gives more ammo than LR.

When folks say "we're going to back out, give the animal some time instead of pushing it" it's translated as that animal is suffering..

I agree, I think the animal rights groups are doing a great job of dividing hunters and hunting groups so that it will make it easier for them (the animal rights groups) to stop hunting.

They start with hunting that we as hunters divide over, like HF or LR hunting and then move on to other types of hunting like bow hunting or hunting with pistols.

The anti hunting will only stop when all of our hunting is a thing of the past and groups like B&C, P&Y or whatever group you can name just need to say that we do not participate with this type of hunting or that type hunting and so we do not recognize animals taken those ways.

Maybe so. I happen to believe that the challenge of bowhunting cuts it a lot of slack in the minds of non-hunters. At least it does with the ones I know. IMO it's less about the "suffering" and more about the perceived fairness of the hunt in the minds of neutral folks. Hunting enclosed animals and potting animals from over a 1/2 a mile away just doesn't viscerally sit right with your average person with no stake in the game.

I have a photo of an antelope that has an arrow sticking through his neck, the antelope was running around in field that everyone driving by could see, this antelope just happened to be in an area with alot of tree hugger types and mainly gun hunters, most all started saying thats why bow hunting should be banned because they are making the animals suffer.

And where I live almost everyone thinks that hunting blinds and feeders are not fair chase hunting and not hunting at all. So alot of the hunting methods being fair or not depends on what you grew up around as being ok.

Also if you want to see the pic of the antelope I will email it to you.

I understand the challenges of it, non-hunters that haven't participated that just see someone range an animal and then make a horrible shot on it likely won't. Their lack of experience won't allow them to understand. Where this issue arises on LR and B&C is the hunt not being the challenging part, getting the tags to hunt the quality of animals to qualify is the hard part. There'll always be a lot of ticked off people out West, just go look at Monster Muleys. They don't like LR, they don't like preference points, they don't like landowner vouchers, they don't like having guides find an animal for a client, they hate auction tags going towards conservation, etc. If they can find something to gripe about bc they aren't hunting the Henrys, Antelope Island, AZ Strip, Ely and are stuck with "pizzcutter" tags then they will. Basically an everyone should get a trophy mentality. B&C just needs to set their rules and stay neutral on controversy bc controversy can be found everywhere.

Exactly.

Them folks ain't neutral. They just don't like anybody or anything they perceive as preventing them from going out and blasting Kaibab/Henry's bucks like they used to in the '70s. In many ways, they have some points though. Have you noticed what an ego/big $$$ game a lot of western hunting has become? All the banny roosters strutting around the conventions? It's probably worth it to put up with them for all the $$$ they provide to conservation-but still hard not to notice.
Seems like we got off track not sure how.....
And a little controversy is not always a bad thing if it leads to positive changes. Controversy for controversy's sake alone certainly is though.

And I have never had a non-hunter (mostly women) react negatively to any of my bow killed animals-always more satisfied that it was fair to the animal. Admittedly a limited sampling....

It is big $, partly due to blasting deer like they did in the 60s & 70s. Right guide on the strip can run $125k, on AI run $250k and there's a line of folks waiting to book. Sheep tag having $1.4 million donated just to give the tag back to make another $25k. LR rifle manufacturers donating rifles that bring in $20-40k/pop for $10k rifles. There's a lot of money exchanging hands out West and it'll take divine intervention for the little man to ever get back on equal footing.

Well with this controversy, what yardage limit gets set and how is there an actual way to enforce it?

The women in my sample have called it cheating and hunting a month early.

IDK. To me it's about honestly making an effort to hunt the animal (which means getting as close as you reasonably can) rather than just shoot it. I had a chance at my ram at 520 yards at the top of the mountain about 3 hours into the stalk. Didn't know if we would ever get closer. Not in my comfort zone but I can see how it would be for for some. By hunting, I don't just mean stalking, but trying to place yourself as close to the animal as is reasonably possible given the situation. I shot my biggest buck at 290. I wasn't getting any closer to that deer.

OTOH, we first spotted the ram at daybreak at 1200 yards. Even if I could and did shoot him then and just walk up the ridge and collect him, IMO that I would not have hunted that sheep. Just spotted him and shot him. A hunter knows the difference between hunting and target practice.

No way to enforce it other than peer reaction/pressure. A reaction like "Couldn't you have gotten closer?" rather than "Wow, dude, what a shot!" Same for penned animals.

Sure you hunted him. Getting the tag & actually finding him in big country is the majority of the battle. From my experience, chasing deer in that nasty, steep mess, is once you start following an animal you go from casual hunting to doing stupid stuff and in the back of your mind thinking I should have shot him before he went over the top.

I thought it was the majority of the battle too until I got through walking that damn mountain range and packing him back over that same range. I better get the other two sooner rather than later or I will have to hire the Mossback crew with the stirrups on their packs.

Or they are clinging on to contervesy to extract every dollar they can from their loyalists. Become an NRA member or CCA member or DU member. Watch your email and Mail get flooded with every save your guns campaign, save your fish from the commercial fisherman, save your wetlands from the corn farmer....your donation will save us...until next week and we will need another dollar for another issue

I would think being non-controversial and not alienating folks would be the easier route if raising $$ was the only goal.

It's not for B&C I get-fair chase is one of their foundations. But the magazines are in the business to sell magazines. Period. If they are speaking out (as they are) IMO it is only because they have put their fingers in the air and think even the vast majority of the hunting community is becoming fed up with the that is LR and HF "hunting".

Or they have started down a slope of decline and they are trying to push limits to extract the most out of their ultra loyalist.

If someone told you they could ban HF for a certain amount...how much would you donate?

LOL I would be fighting a losing battle-especially in TX. The big $$ boys ain't going down easy. The only thing that will ever end it is if it no longer feeds the ego anymore. Only attitude changes will cause that.

Well I tend to agree with you on that.

I'm not a fan of released or even breeder deer. In fact I'll never hunt one, but I will never condone a guy that does, or guy that's more skilled with his weapon of choice then I am. That's just me. I care more about the time a feild then I do the method in which others hunt.

And there was a time when the magazines were OK with both LR and HF. Ol' Garth Carter embraced the LR craze like a madman for a while. His rag almost looked like "Best of the West". I notice that has just about gone away now. They are all reading the tea leaves.....

Na, got a 22yo that'll whip ya into shape on the hunt. He's the idjut who got into the Escalante and couldn't find a pool for water, then decided to hunt a while then come out, get an IV drip and go back with someone who could carry water back in and/or find it from past aerial surveys.

Please understand I hold no malice against anyone. I would never break a friendship over the issue or think less of a person as a person because of how they kill an animal legally. I am hating on the sin, not the sinners. Really just trying to foster thought on the issues. No more, but no less....

I'm afraid he would have to leave my rotting carcass on the trail.

In all seriousness, it is amazing what you can do with the proper motivation. It's largely a mind game. Not 100% of course, but a bunch of it. One of the things that makes it so fun-mostly after the fact, of course.

I know

I defend a lot of things I just wanted some to know why. It's not because I do it, it's simply because I don't choose to impose my thoughts on what hunting is onto someone else.

Here is what the other side is shoveling... Take a moment and read the hate.
We are all lumped together as SCUM. The taking of any game.


Anti-Hunting Facebook

We need to quit fighting among ourselves. I hunt LF, no fence, HF (Yes I have personal bounds when hunting HF. It must offer a large enough area for a hunt, yes this is my legal freedom) I'm not ashamed of one animal I have harvested.

If I visit any place that offers shooting fish in a barrel I leave. I agree not all HF is good, but I also know not all animals in B&C were taken Fair Chase, and with enough money I can buy my way into the "Book".

I only take shots within my ability. I support Bow, Rifle, Pistol and Rights to Bear Arms.

I count my blessings and enjoy the outdoors when I can, and I have never met a newbie that's been offended when I share my convictions. Then again I don't surround myself with idiots.

Agreed. The mainstream anti-hunting effort couldn't care less about the HF debate. Outside of HF circles, HF isn't even a blip on the anti's radar. They hate all hunting and want nothing more than to stop it. And they value an animal's life more than yours. How's that for rationality?

We need to stick together. Time will sort out the HF issue.