Repealing Texas Property Taxes is a Progressive Trap

Proposition 2 in the Texas Republican primary would repeal property taxes in Texas and replace the tax revenue with a higher sales tax rate. It passed by 75 percent.

If you thought the Robin Hood law was bad, you are really going to hate repealing property taxes. The foxes in Austin will be in charge of all of the hen houses. By using the state sales tax to fund schools instead of school district property taxes, we run the distinct possibility of no longer having local school boards. Why would we need them? Austin could determine curricula, books and the hiring of teachers. The state could totally take over education.

Friends and neighbors, don't get me wrong. Eliminating any tax is a seductive idea. We are taxed too much at every level and should have lower taxes, less government and more liberty. But I believe it is necessary and fair to keep property taxes in the mix.

Let's take a quick look at the "root causes" of taxes. From potholes in city streets to a national standing army, from public schools to social safety nets, our local, state and federal taxes strengthen, improve and maintain our country, its infrastructure, our quality of life and (wait for it) our property and land values. We live on this dirt ball a mere moment in time, but land will outlive us all to the benefit of our heirs.

Those who favor Repeal the Property Tax (RPT) assert that a property tax is not fair. They claim a property owner is forced to pay property taxes, has no choice and therefore does not truly own his land.

First of all, no one is forced to own property. We don't have to buy it and if we are blessed to own land we can always sell it. And I've got some more news for you. You ain't gonna take it with you. We are all merely stewards of the land until we are put to rest under some of it.

RPT proposes replacing lost tax revenue, not with increased income taxes, but with increased sales taxes. They further argue that people can choose whether or not to purchase goods and pay the sales tax.

That may be true for a rich man who has discretionary income to buy luxury items or make investments, buy another home and more land. That land will benefit from improved infrastructure, good roads, good schools and law enforcement. That land will increase in value with the passage of time because of improvements in the infrastructure surrounding it and not because of the intrinsic value of its good earth. See where I'm going with this. Those of us blessed to be land owners should pay property taxes contributing to our local infrastructure.

Now let's take a look at another man. A man who is poor, has no property and has to spend all of his income simply to maintain a meager lifestyle in a shabby rental (owned by a rich man, a landlord). The poor man is the one who truly has no choice but to pay taxes. Every last penny of his expendable income is taxed when he earns it by the sweat of his brow and again when he spends it for necessities.

Henry George saw things that way. Who the blazes is Henry George, you ask. Little is remembered of this political economist today but 143 years ago he was one of the best known men in the country because of a book he wrote, one that he thought would be an obscure tome, Progress and Poverty. In it he advocated federal taxes on land values. Now I'm no social justice warrior, far from it, but if we could use a federal land value tax to eliminate the federal income tax, that may be an idea worth looking into.
https://www.theatlantic.com/nationa...ngle-tax-could-combat-inequality/587197/

First of all, no one is forced to own property. We don't have to buy it and if we are blessed to own land we can always sell it. And I've got some more news for you. You ain't gonna take it with you. We are all merely stewards of the land until we are put to rest under some of it.


You work or draw money from the Gubberment??

What about wealthy people who rent and own no property? What about them?

They exist too you know.

Also, what about the people who are land rich and cash poor. Should they have to sell or lease their land if the taxes become a burden?

Eliminating property tax and increasing sales tax seems to be the most fair way

MrMadMac- do you own property?

I know a couple like that. Big beautiful ranches, and they make just enough of the wool and mohair to pay the shearers. But the counties are the really greedy ones.

Remove the property tax and raise the sales tax, everybody pays sales tax, far fewer pay property tax.

This.Think everybody ought to have Skin in the Game. Even on Federal Income Tax.

"That may be true for a rich man who has discretionary income to buy luxury items or make investments, buy another home and more land. That land will benefit from improved infrastructure, good roads, good schools and law enforcement. That land will increase in value with the passage of time because of improvements in the infrastructure surrounding it and not because of the intrinsic value of its good earth. See where I'm going with this. Those of us blessed to be land owners should pay property taxes contributing to our local infrastructure."

I am far from a rich man.
It wasn't really discretionary income that got me my land. I sacrificed time, money and a hell of a lot of effort to get it, keep it, and improve it.
I literally have increased the value of my property ten fold. It is extremely rural. All I want is a good gravel road. It is no better than it was when I bought the place almost 9 years ago. Increasing the value ten fold has increased the taxes ten fold. Plain and simple I am getting screwed. So to hell with your improved infrastructure. Not ever one time have I seen any type of law enforcement on my road, and damn sure not a fire department. So no I don't see where you are going. You are living in a dream world.

Everyone pays sales tax. And they can choose not to buy things.

Rich or poor, everyone pays sales tax. Rich man buys more sh**, therefore pays more taxes. Poor man buys less sh** and therefore pays less taxes. Sounds pretty fair to me. Beats the hell out of property owners paying all the school taxes while non property owner pay nothing.

Raising the sales tax would also capture the illegal activity income from drug dealers, money launderers, etc. They don't pay any tax now but definitely spend a lot of money.

Everybody pays property taxes. They may not write the check, but anybody who pays for a place to live is paying for property taxes.

You are leaving out the millions that are living in government housing. You are paying YOUR property taxes AND theirs.

How much tax did they pay for Coke, Cheetos and cigarettes?

Don't forget the blue and white gods. They only drink the best

I don't like property taxes either but the numbers just don't add up. Sales taxes simply won't cut it



https://ttara.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/TribTalk_SalesPropertyTaxSwapOpEd_2_5_18.pdf

At 25% people will travel across statelines for major purchases

Another consideration would be that If property taxes were eliminated folks would have a good bit more disposable income to make purchase and pay sales taxes...

With the exception of my residence and the place on the Frio, I don’t pay my property taxes.

I’ve often wondered this myself. Would it even out in the long run for someone like me (who owns a small amount of property)? Or, would I end up paying more every year to support the people with the million dollar ranches? It would be nice if someone came up with a program to help people figure out what this would look like in real life.

I like being able to have a lot of control over what I pay in property taxes. I choose to live in an area with high taxes, in a more expensive home than I "need". If I chose to, I could downsize, move to another area, and significantly reduce my tax burden. I think it's great that folks who want to aggressively save, or who are living on a fixed income, or just don't want to pay high taxes, can do this. By contrast, most financially responsible people have a lot less control over what they pay in sales tax.

Those numbers don't seem to add up. If 6.25% generated $36B, then 16% would generate $92B.

Personally I think a combination of raising sales tax to like 9% and dropping property taxes would work.

We gotta remember, if someone makes $75k a year then they are probably only paying sales tax on what...$20k of that? Maybe even a lot less since majority is housing, auto, insurance, income tax, savings, gasoline, etc.

The minimum combined 2022 sales tax rate for Price, Texas is 8.25%. This is the total of state, county and city sales tax rates. The Texas sales tax rate is currently 6.25%.

I don't have a problem with property taxes per se. The problem I have is basing them on current appraisals. Property taxes should be based on the purchase price plus a COLA adjustment. If you give local governments and school districts 10% more money every year they will find a way to spend it. I feel for people that escrow. With insurance and property taxes going up they are going to see big increases in monthly payments and will probably be caught off guard.

The OP sounds as if he needs to go back to tff

Did we ever find out if MMM actually owns any land?

Yep. and

The areas with outrageous property taxes either have counties and schools that are spending like crazy or the schools are under Chapter 41 (Robin Hood) and sending a good portion of collected taxes to other districts. Stop the Robin Hood nonsense and let the state figure out how to fund that without property taxes. That would be a good start. As far as the rest of the county and school spending goes, that is still somewhat under local control. The state did step in on property valuations and forced values up in a backdoor effort to fix funding while publicly touting they capped property taxes. Keep an eye on that other hand.

The more we allow convoluted, complex and even hidden taxing schemes the harder it will be for taxpayers to control it and easier for politicians and bureaucrats to abuse and manipulate them. That said, the notion of going straight sales tax does show us just how much it takes and how high taxes really are.

Hire it done. You only pay half of what they save you. Try OConner.

I dislike high property taxes as much as the next guy, and I pay more prop tax than mortgage interest at this point. But I’m also skeptical that eliminating property taxes completely and replacing with sales tax is feasible. If the number stated above are correct, 25% sales tax won’t be popular. It will be argued that it will unfairly impact lower income earners, and nobody wants to see already skyrocketing prices on everything go up that much more overnight.

I would support a reduction in property taxes (maybe 50%) accompanied by a lesser increase in sales tax, to more fairly distribute the tax burden. But as always I don’t trust government officials to use our tax dollars wisely so agreeing to pay more on any type of tax is a hard pill to swallow

I live in a Robin Hood District...our taxes are outrageous.

I know properties right up the road from me that are in a different district that are double what mine is worth and pay the same or even less taxes than I do

Raise the sales tax and lower property tax…..

Leases i was on, the money went ta pay the taxes....
Agree all land tis not the same... Prices per acrege vary..
Land across the road lived on was owned by a lawyer..
He bought, or got it in settlement, & sold it in small sections...

Agree with glen's post...

low-income workers get hit hard enough.. Check out renting prices, & these gas/prices...

This would be a real kick in the balls to 100% disabled veterans. One of the biggest benefits we receive is a 100% property tax exemption. Unless they will issue us cards exempting us from sales tax, this will suck.

I hate paying property taxes as much as the next guy. Frivolous and non-transparent spending just gets my blood boiling. Those making the spending decisions need to do a better job.

They take property tax revenue from wealthier counties to fund poorer ones so it’s already a progressive tax. I am all for completely eliminating property tax. It’s out of control. When you are old and living on a fixed income, property tax like Texas has is a killer. People should not lose the home they own over a tax.

I think you ought to be taxed every time you make post

Mr. Mac... That's the biggest lode of horse dung, I've read in
a long time..
First of all, whether you own land or not. You still pay property taxes.
And you go downhill from there.. Troll
The next time you decide to write a dissertation about something.
Make sure, you know something about the subject..

Granted I am not a Vet, but anytime the federal gov can kick a veteran in the nuts they will. Look at the [censored] show the VA is. It is obvious they give zero F's about Veterans.

First the property tax is a STATE tax,not federal tax. Second you admitted your ignorance about the VA, therefore your opinion is about as useless as Joe Biden's. In August I will have been under the VA system for 53 years, I get exemplary medical care. I have also used the so called "civilian" side of medical care during that time period. I would say the VA has done a better job than some of the civilian Doctors I have dealt with.

Well folks meet the unicorn of the VA!!! I see why you get such great care lol

From a survey that was compiled the Veterans of Foreign Wars, 82% of the veterans were happy with their healthcare, while only 63% or Americans are happy with their health care.

Retired AF here. No VA but I've been on TRICARE since I retired in 93. Could not ask for better DRs in all those years. Top notch providers most of which are tops in their fields, including a few PHD's.
My only complaint is the govt reneged on the promise of "free" health care for life.

you & several others constantly complain about my post ...
Yet yall get on here & do more whinning & ing about how bad ya'll got it...
Several times offered ta switch...
Ya'lls got...


Thats sad...

The argument is even dumber than the post. I second the motion for JP to tax you on every post.

Do what?

Yep. I'm a property "owner" who will never really "own" my property as long as the current property tax system is in place.

I agree that raising the sales tax will hurt some more than others...but we'll all be hurting. If we are unified in our distaste for the sales tax, and the efficiency of those who are spending it, we have a much larger, stronger voice to oppose and regulate the rates. The gov doesn't decide that...we do. We have a voice with our vote. If we are all hurt by the sales tax rates, we can ALL vote for change.

As it stands now, the majority of state tax income comes from property and business owners. That simply isn't a fair system. When a large enough portion of the population doesn't own property or run a business...there is no longer a voice for the property owners and our taxes go up each year. Meanwhile, those with no skin in the game (non-property tax payers) have no incentive to fight for lowering the tax rate or demanding accountability for how it is spent.

Don't like the sales tax rate?...1. Vote, 2. buy used on the person-to-person market, 3. Learn to fix and reuse current items 4. get out of the consumer mindset that thinks we have to buy the latest and greatest all the time....just to name a few.

Seems like a no-brainer to me.

Your obama care bill [censored] me till I figured it out. You are a manipulative old fart and still a POS at the end of the day. It is what is what it is

Your ignorance exceeds your brilliance.

$10 to a worthy charity is what you word is worth..

The suicided rate exceeds you too. At least I am honest.

[censored] U as you stand by a base

Well this is entertaining, a drunk guy arguing with himself cause a geriatric hurt his feelings.

A state lottery would fix everything.

Fuel taxes will take care of our roads....

It's never enough

I think this idea has merit. You know what you are getting yourself into when you buy the house. I do not think sales tax alone can create the revenues needed without having significant negative affects.

you had your chance

I love the USA because you can live anywhere you want, you are not forced to live somewhere and pay exorbitant prices if you don't want to. We are on several hundred acres and are Ag exempt. Most people in DFW pay way more property tax than we do for a 1/8 acre lot you can pee across. Makes absolutely no sense but people still pay it.

I hear school districts talked about all the time like it's a huge deal to be in a certain one. I promise that little Johnny will not become full retard if he doesn't get to go to (insert uppity school name here). Kids graduate every single year from small rural schools and become very successful members of society.

Here is a good article that probably has more information than you want to know
about land appraisal, exemptions and rollbacks (which are actually an 8% increase).
And good news!

If the taxing unit then proposes a tax rate for the current year that is higher than the rollback rate,
residents can petition within 90 days to limit the size of the tax rate increase.
https://agrilifeextension.tamu.edu/.../texas-property-taxes/

Thanks for the math.
It is amazing that the article posted is called "Bad Math," and they do bad math right in the first page.

The math is good. Maybe not so well written as some are having trouble following it.

The sentence where it references $36 billion is clear that it is state and local taxes sales taxes which would typically be 8.25% that generated $36 billion and not 6.25%.

Difference is the initial price investment of the rural land vs. the house in town. And Ag/exemption is only on the property not the 1 acre with a home….that’s still taxed Ad Valorem. So it’s not exactly apples to apples what you are comparing.

And the school district comes into play more with extra curriculars, sports programs and academic resources available in a urban or suburban school vs. smaller rural schools. There is a difference.

Point is you pay way more for way less at the end of the day.

I have more faith in my offspring than most I guess. I don't need my kid to speak Mandarin or be on the fencing team to be successful in life.

If this does become a state income tax and the state controls all dollars. I wonder how they will divvy it up equally.
It would be my thought that a lesser populated county like Palo Pinto will bring in more in property tax than they will in sales tax. They could be short.

My main complaint when I lived in Texas was the property tax wasn't indexed to income. After 6 neck surgeries, my wife was forced into early retirement. We lost her $50k annual income, but my property taxes kept going up. Moving to Alabama 7 years ago, my property taxes the first year was $625 and are currently $750. Yes, I pay a state income tax and a sales tax on more items like groceries, but all those taxes are based on A) Income and B) Personal Spending. A home doesn't generate income until it is sold. But you have to pay a wealth tax on it every year based on how much your county thinks it is worth in todays real estate market.

I follow you. But they are still off a bit.
I cringe at the thought of a 20%+ sales tax. But then property taxes suck too.

Some people take property taxes very seriously.
They were increased in the township of Bath, Michigan to pay for a new school
and in 1927 Andrew Kehoe blew up the school killing 38 children and 6 adults.
It would have been worse but one of his two bombs failed to go off.
Bath School Bombing

2Drunk must be sleeping in today!

The International Association of Assessing Officers https://www.iaao.org/
has an informative and even entertaining article about property taxes from 6,000 B.C. to the present date.
The History of Property Taxes

Makes sense, I didn't realize it was the 8.25 rather than 6.25.

Another factor to consider....commercial property owners pay a large amount of property taxes as well. I wonder how that would factor into all of it?

Kinda wonder if 20% sales tax would be less in the end than the $5800 smackers we pay to Chicken Chit Property Tax. Almost $4000 of that is to Screw/School Tax. At least mine if locked for the older's.

This is a one upper post.

I got tired of it and paid off the house with the income frog selling a lot that was near.

Yep

I sure hope 25% sales tax isn't the answer.

Pot meet Kettle.

I think that 15% on up to 25% sales taxes would kill small businesses. You will see restaurants that have already suffered Covid close up. The dwelling they are in may have a mortgage that defaults, which hurts the lender. There are dominoes. It would hurt home builders because the already overpriced materials would have that tax. And we the home buyers would have to pay more for these homes. Autos would be even more expensive, which would hurt the auto dealers. Going out of state won't help on the auto deal. Out of state auto dealers collect Texas taxes. Every retail business would suffer. I think you would see a commercial real estate bust.

I don't have an answer. I don't like property taxes any more than the next person. However, I could just see small towns looking like some old western ghost town.

Our nuke plant would probably be very grateful.

I bet you a quarter they are exempt or have some other favorable discount.

It never was on the table. Smarter and reigning in government spending was on the table...

Politicians weren't wanting to lower property tax

The plant pays around 80-85% of all property taxes for Somervell.

I owe you a quarter.

There was a Somerville Steakhouse that was very good when I was at TAMU. I guess it is out of business.

Prather was only 1% increase in sales tax. Huffines was on it too, but I do not recall a number from him.

Y'all are fooled if you think one person will reign in the state budget/spending. Y'all are also fooled if you think our property taxes are going anywhere without a state income tax. The best we could hope for is a cap or a cost basis equation like mentioned earlier in the thread

Yup

Actually had to work a little. I am not giving away rifles so why are you on my nuts? DC knows I give zero [censored] what he thinks but you love them so get back under the desk boy lol. F you I said what I said and believe it to be true .

That’s not really accurate. Between my home, my rental properties, and my business I pay around 25k in property taxes a year. I hate the taxes but with the case of my business and the rentals those costs are definitely passed on to my customers and renters. Every landlord figures their property taxes in when deciding what to charge for rent so even people who don’t own property pay the tax. Same with businesses they factor in their tax burden and pass it on to the customers.

Now I will agree that the average joe has no idea this is how it works so in a sense you are right that the general public doesn’t care but they are paying these taxes whether they know it or not.

Along those lines I know they would never be able to collect it from all the deadbeats but the fastest way to get meaningful income tax change would be instead of deducting it from pay checks before people get them make people write the government a check once a month or quarterly. That would change the average person’s opinion in a heartbeat.

Yup! I don't escrow my property taxes, and I have no withholding on my pay. April 15th, June 15th, Sept 15, Jan 15th, and Jan 31 are my least favorite days of the year

Aww, that’s cute. Grown man got his panties in a bunch! Can’t even complete a thought without interjecting someone, back to the bottle to find your purpose! Don’t worry, I’m sure you’ll find it in the last drop!

Biggest problem with taxes… is spending. See more transparency and say so on how our govt. schools etc spend it. I’ve seen lots of it squandered away.

Yep, the problem isn't in how taxes are collected. It's how they are spent.

Looks like we had another drive by posting, the OP hasn't made another comment.

Two days ago, after the barking had settled down, I made three additional, separate, constructive comments on this thread.

If anyone bothered to check, they would see that I have contributed more than 300 positive posts to this forum.
None of them are flaming, dismissive, insulting, negative are derogatory comments.
But I guess that is how a person can rapidly drive up their post count.

As for the issue of owning land, our family has been blessed with land and homes in Houston County since 1850.

Thank you one and all for your participation in this lively thread.