Buffalo Hunts

12/26/1874: First commercial buffalo hunt in Texas
On this day in 1874, Joseph McComb led a party out from Fort Griffin on the first commercial buffalo hunt in Texas. The party consisted of McComb; two assistants, John Jacobs and John W. Poe; and teamsters, skinners, and an ox-drawn wagon. The season's kill brought 2,000 hides, which were marketed at Fort Griffin at $1.50 and $2.00 each. Other hunting trips headed by McComb followed in 1875, 1876, 1877, and 1878. McComb estimated that he killed no fewer than 12,000 buffalo during his five hunting seasons. The completion of the transcontinental railroad was a catalyst for the slaughter of buffalo in the 1870s and 1880s, since the railroad made possible the profitable shipment of hides from the Great Plains to eastern markets. Thousands of hunters and skinners participated in the hunts. By 1884 the great herds had been exterminated.

This all happened about 15 miles north of me. Big part of our local history.
More hides were shipped from Fort Griffin than anywhere in the southwest.
Most were shot about 100 miles west of Fort Griffin in Haskell and Knox Counties.

They were slaughters, not hunts, and organized to the detriment of Native Americans.
Sad situation that an entire species was almost exterminated due to racism towards Native Americans.
Not all "hunts" were organized for that reason but a great many were.
However, I do not agree with the native americans getting the only chance to hunt bison when they roam out of some of our national parks.

Thanks for sharing

True on the slaughter part.
But native Americans are not the only ones allowed to hunt wild bison outside of national parks.

Wyoming, Montana, Utah and Alaska all have seasons and draw tags available every year.
In Canada one can buy a tag in most of western Canada.

Gonna hoist the BS flag on this. Not sure where you get the idea only "native Americans" get the tags for bison that wander out of parks.



Many years ago I drew one of the MT tags for bison outside of Yellowstone. Took this one on a rancher's hay meadow. Bison had been breaking open bales (you can see one right behind me) and he let the game wardens know he wanted them gone. I'm one of the permit holders the game wardens called and this young bull filled my permit. I wanted good meat so I intentionally avoided one of the really big bulls. Picture doesn't do the weather justice. It was well below 0 even thought there wasn't hardly a cloud in the sky.

Do I look like I'm a member of one of the tribes?

Not to mention the concept the native Americans were great stewards of the bison..plenty of evidence in the fossil records and the historical record where native Americans were at times very wasteful of bison (they didn’t always use all the animal from every animal but they has uses for all the parts of a bison, if that makes sense) and the fossil records of bison jumps were examples where natives were very gluttonous and used very little of most of the animals killed in such attacks/slaughters.

If anyone thinks bison were not slaughtered in some part by native Americans, they are just following the white guilt indoctrination currently going thru the American education system.

A wagon train of buffalo hides in Weatherford, Texas on the way to market, 1874. From the Fort Worth Star-Telegram Collection, Special Collections, UTA Library.

Disgusting.

Hindsight's 20/20. When you think we're SOOO much more enlightened than our forefathers, consider this - When cars first came out, the owner's manuals included instructions on how to perform a valve job. Now, owner's manuals warn us not to drink the battery acid.

It’s been and once again being pushed that way, Anyway huge push to relocate all excess TB free Buffalo to only Reservations

Lots of bad blood right now after Herrera vs Wyoming. As there should be. Herrera a POS poacher and a disgrace to a badge

Not all by any means, but some bison that roam out of Yellowstone are rounded up and given to tribes adjacent.
Sorry my post was not accurate in my initial statement. I was distracted by certain events in Nashville when I posted.
It is a big point of contention with some residents of Montana and Wyoming.
I however see it as a concession to them for the slaughter that took place in the past.

I have drawn 2 of those cow bison tags in Wyoming and my spouse has taken 1. I know full well about the tags available to residents and NR.
Wyoming must also honor native hunting rights in the Bighorn Mts now after that Herrera case.

My last cow taken on NER, and it was very cold also. Took us 3 days and about 5 miles on foot through that snow to get it done. Processed ourselves at home, Tag and Drag gutted it and got it to the retrieval road.

Indians very much, or at least very much more than we, lived in harmony with the land. But then you have to ask, what were their options. You cannot accurately compare the two societies. You have to look at each based in their time, place, and knowledge.

Same with the Buffalo hunters. Yes we can call them “disgusting.” But that is not accurate or fair either. Any more than judging slave owners based on our “enlightenment” of today. Right or wrong, the beauty of history is to simply see the lives that people lived. Surviving and changing to enhance life as best they could. To learn is wise, to judge based on a complete different time and period is simply foolish.

What if all we learned about native Americans living in harmony in a “edenic” continent was all wrong? A little research into the topic and i think you will find the native americans very actively terraformed, modified flora, at times was very gluttonous of animal wastage, and were very much aware of what they were doing (intentionality) and were quite a bit more advanced (in knowledge of certain areas geographically and topically) than we give credit for in the historical record “we all learned”...meaning our concept they were just naturalistic “live and let live, go with the flow and harmony of nature” is almost completely wrong.

This has little bearing on much other than to say the concept that the bison almost going extinct being solely looked at as a white mans problem, and fortunately we have been able to bring them back to big sustainable herds (95% on private lands), but native americans were part and parcel to hide hunting and tongue hunting while leaving massive numbers of dead bison laying to rot.

The rest of your post i agree with, using todays morality to judge yesteryears events is faulty.

My apologies gentlemen. I did not mean to start a contentious debate.
I was truly distracted by current evens when I posted about the N A s.
Yes they too were guilty of the events described, but not all tribes.
I by no means was trying to defend them at cost to our ancestors.
Thankfully the bison have made a comeback of sorts.
Wyoming , Montana, Utah and SD have free range bison hunts with animals taken being eligible for B&C .

Again my apologies to all who have posted on this thread.

Beautiful sir

I don’t know if some, surely, but I don’t think most think the early people lived in an “edenic” continent. Not in the truest since of a “garden of eden.” If that were the case, as in the garden, meat would have not been eaten. Ha. I would, or certainly was not pushing the idea of a perfect harmony early people’s lived. However, the simple technology of the time would not permit a path for extinction. I am sure you can find many examples where early people were not good stewards, even where waste were displayed. The concept of monetary gain was not feasible on a large enough scale to have led the native people to whole sale exterminations. It would have been extremely “cost prohibitive” in their time and life. They certainly were not “naturalist” in the modern sense, yet they lived/existed in a a more natural environment.

You also, must evaluate the native based on pre/post European exposure.

Wytex, not sure what you meant by contentious debate...we are just having a conversation...nothing contentious going on here.

Sniper, whats interesting is the historical record says the numbers of native Americans on the continent was small, and therefore we “feel” like they couldn’t have been advanced because they simply didn’t have the numbers and their “way of life” was so nomadic they couldn’t have had decent civilization...but that is a post european introduction.

Current estimates now say the native population was decimated by 75-90% within the first few decades after europeans, so all the historical record is based upon a faulty concept. Lots of evidence out there in the archeologic record to suggest there were some places in pre-european america with population centers over 100,000 people, including at least one “city” in north america with such a population and several in central and south america with populations many times more. Simply amazing to me, to think all that i was taught was just not accurate, that such centers of civilization existed in the pre-europe americas.

And excellent book on the subject is 1492. Its follow on 1493 i have not read yet but i have it and am anxious to start it. The first deals with pre-european america, and the second post-european america. I have also hist recently read rinellas buffalo book, and am currently reading a book about the souix head man Red Cloud, and have a book about Quanah Parker next.

It's fascinating history that I am thankful that we can learn from.

All are excellent books. Quanah Parker is one of my favorite. There are several books about his mother Cynthia Ann Parker which are good reads too.

Small is a relative term. Many of the people were extremely advanced. Again, advanced being a relative term. The Mayan use of the zero in about 4A.D is unreal. I can’t speak of the teaching of early civilizations by all but I always taught it as how “advanced” early civilizations were. Again, relative. The Caddoan people of east Texas were part of a system that can only be described as advanced. For their time. To truly know the pre European societies in North America would have, would be the most awesome experience. The Incas, Mayans, and Aztec’s were some of the most advanced. So again, it is really just how you wish to see advanced. It is a shame that many are/were taught an inaccurate history. Never too late to correct that.

For sure, the education i received basically said “Indians” lived at peace with the world and were nothing short of savages woth only a naturalistic morality and no “modern” (for the time of course) civilization or advancements.

Sounds like you know a little more than the average American does about native cultures and advances. That explains a lot about your posts on this thread.

Caddoas, mayans, incas and aztecs did not chase buffalo. Lumping all injuns as advanced is a mistake. Some of those there advanced Native American were no match for the highly outnumbered colonialists and outdoorsmen they were confronted with.

Ha. Ha. Well probably not. Although there are stories/records of Buffalo making it into east Texas region. Rare I am sure, but possible. I don’t believe anyone is “lumping” all injuns as advanced. Again, an educated person knows that all things are relative. A bow is not equivalent to a gun in regards to advanced. However a person who can create a bow that enables his life to flourish could be considered advanced. You might be considered very advanced with modern creations today. But put you into the world/nature of the “injuns” of centuries ago and more than likely you would perish quickly. The mere fact that civilizations survived during times of great harshness and adapted and survived learning the practices they did can be considered “advanced.”

No match is also subject to relatively. The number one weapon the “outdoorsman and and colonist” had was European diseases. Give a Comanche a horse, bow, and a battle on the open plains. Give same number of colonists a horse, a bow, and a battle on the open plains. Who is advanced?

Bottom line, the advancements we have today in no way diminish the advancements of those who came centuries before us. Each is an accomplishment in its own right.

Had the colonialists met the full force of the native people, they may have met their match. But smallpox, cholera, etc took their toll and estimates are nearly 90% of the native population was wiped from the americas by the time the jamestown colony was founded.

Some of the earliest explorers have records of native town after town along the great rivers in N america, but by the time lewis and clark sailed the northern ones, the number of settlements along the river were gone.

And btw, there used to be bison all the way down to current mexico. I would guess most of the natives that lived in texas and the area of the caddoan tribes hunted bison to some degree. Might not have been the main part of their hunting. But to say they didn’t chase bison, depends if you mean “chase” like the plains natives did, then you are correct; if you mean “chase” like we mostly all chase deer, you are probably incorrect.

Who wrote get rid of the buffaloes and you will be rid of the Indians?

The difference between the various tribes/groups of Indians in the now US was amazing. The Indians of the east coast and NE are so different and fascinating. The Indians of the SW, same. NW, same. Shoot all of them have their own fascinating and wonderful history.

This is a hanging scale made by Luckhuas & Gunther of Remshield Germany, to measure the weight of buffalo hides. Luckhuas & Gunther were noted to made swords, carpentry tools, pocket knives C. 1800's.

Now THAT is interesting. Of course this whole thread has been interesting and enlightening for me. Im not much on history, so thanks TXBuc and Sniper.

Caddo did hunt bison.
Very cool scale leswad !

Caddoe may well have hunted Bison out of opportunity, but fairly certain they were not a depended upon game resource.

The point is the Indian way of life and their civilization stabilization became outmoded when the newcomers forced themselves upon them. Don’t get me wrong, their story is very romantic and endearing. Even so, if it were practical and admirable, it would have come back or successfully replicated over the past generations.

Outmoded in who’s eyes? Just because one civilization was dominated by another into extinction doesn’t mean it wasn’t “practical” or “admirable”. I imagine the Native Americans thought their way of life was both. Hitler, Mussolini, and Hirohito almost took over the world. If they had, that wouldn’t have made their civilizations more “practical” or “admirable” than the Allied civilizations. Russia and China have wiped out and/or subjugated several civilizations that I would consider were a heck of a lot better than theirs.

History is written by the winners, but there are always other points of view.

Thank you for helping to prove my point. Thank you.

X2

https://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/tejas/fundamentals/life.html
http://archeology.uark.edu/indiansofarkansas/index.html?pageName=The%20Caddo%20Indians
https://www.crt.state.la.us/dataprojects/archaeology/virtualbooks/CADDO/devel.htm
https://www.crt.state.la.us/dataprojects/archaeology/virtualbooks/CADDO/devel.htm
https://www.hannapub.com/concordias...7d458b0-e5bd-11e7-bb41-63bf5f83ee7a.html

Not hard to find lots of references of them hunting bison.

Aside from massive expansion of horses via indian horse traders, there was a Very large growing monetary trade, lots of evidence all over NM and CO of trade with southern and central American civilizations, macals, pottery etc

The North America tribes where steadily hammering down on the bison, well before colonization of the eastern shore. The Indian horse trade orginating from central/southern America was well established after spanish influence in the America’s. The introduction of the horse was the beginning to the end of the Bison. Utilization and dependence of bison was a horse introduction cause/effect.

Now if you want to go back pre horse(pre 1492 -1504) then you would have a point. With that said first official colony was 1607 and Lewis and Clark started 1803.... Huge time gap.

North American Europeans may be credited with the quicker extermination of bison by livestock disease and market gunning but wheels where set into play well before NA was officially colonized. The scared horse.....

Buffalo wasn't a main stay until the horse found it's way via Indian trade. It literally caused the extinction of some tribes and explosive growth of others.... All happening well before the colonies where established.

Indubitably.

Ya know...some come here "to teach."

No matter how endearing, how great the lifestyle sounds and disregard & dismiss whatever you wish to ignore, their wife of life was immediately outdated when the Europeans came over.

Individuals can still choose to live somewhat like Indians, but as a society it is no longer functional. Hasn't been for quite some time.

Touché. As May very well be said about our way and function in the near future. Ironic in its own right. Maybe China will say that about us.

Pretty scary, isn't it?

Maybe a proper way of putting that is the way of life was not ready for the diseases the Europeans brought over. I am fairly certain the native Americans could have gone toe to toe (for a much longer time, at least) with the rudimentary muskets and muzzeloaders had they actually been given a real chance. Remember, breach loading rifles let alone rifling didn’t become a widespread availability until civil war era. Again, we are comparing a group of people who lost near 90% of its people before the real “fight” took place. Just look at the native americans were able to do when a concerted effort was undertaken against the white man. And figure if there 8-9x the number of indian fighters, would be a different history for sure.

But like the “war with china” and how they are winning it without a shot being fired, the war for the americas was won well before the first shots were actually fired.

Maybe a proper way of putting "that" is to understand what actually happened and quit referencing white apologist crapola about manifest destiny. This 90% mortality figure you keep spouting as gospel has a hard time with my smell test. 90%? Can any disease or sets of diseases be that efficient, that lethal? They didn't tear up Europe with those numbers. Seems here you are simply giving the Indians a losers' limp and not allowing yourself to confront reality/history.

This bunch could argue circle's on what day of the week it is.

Sniper and even TX Buck make great points which stimulate civil discourse.

My daughter has a masters in history and teaches at a university but she didnt get that from me. I dont have a clue which of yall may be more so right or wrong but you are all may more versed on the subject than me. I thought John Wayne killed most of em. Yall should pool your efforts and tweak your differences and write a book. I would read it since it would mostly all be news to me. Carry on(glad its staying civil.)

That's not true.
Yes it is, no it's not.

Interesting discussion

Ya know, I once read that Genghis Kahn killed enough Chinese to effect the climate in Asia. I wouldn't know.

You need to read up a little on acquired immunity and introduced diseases. By 1800 the NA population was down to about 600,000.

Impressive quote and still hard to fathom. Even so, it is an obfuscation.

Well, you can’t read a history book to find out what really happened. Read one from 1950 and compare it to one from 2020. Ain’t the same.

But, for good books and long reads, pick up a copy of the book 1491 (pre-Columbus) and then read 1493 (post-Columbus). An amazing amount of history that I had never seen, heard, or read. Extremely interesting.

Potatoes and tomatoes originated in the Americas.
The Mississippi River had Indian villages every mile pre-Columbus or pre-European diseases in 1491
10 years later, no villages.

Not sure why you feel it is white guilt and all that to try and get the historical record accurate. I am not trying to bring all this up because I am some hippie kumbya indian lover or someone wracked with white guilt over what we did to the natives. I am just trying to be accurate.

I realize the historical record is written by the winners and the losers side never sees the accuracy or perspective it had, but that doesn't mean the whole thing should be one sided nor does it mean the historical record can not be amended to be more accurate.

1492 gets here and their are roughly 61 million indigenous Americans. The onslaught of introduced diseases brings this figure down 90% to about 6 million in 1650. Then, for multiple reasons, their population further declines to 600,000 by 1800 for an additional reduction of, coincidentally, 90%. I call BS.

From William Denevan, "Research by some scholars provides population estimates to be as high as 112 million in 1492, while others estimate the population to be as low as eight million. In any case, the native population declined to less than 6 million by 1650."

Okay, is it 112? Is it closer to 8? Sounds like picking kernels and knowledge tidbits from their butt holes. 112 million vs 8 million could tear a huge hole in the whole 90% issue. 25% is still large no doubt, but nowhere near the 90% cited as a reason they could have put up more of a "fight" when attempting to hold on to their lands. They wouldn't have had a chance if they started with 8 and did not suffer the mortality of those bad diseases.

Thanks for the research heads up, cherry picking numbers to bolster a position and suggesting people read about it

Nobody really knows how many native Americans were here prior to the Spanish visitations. But, as I mentioned earlier, an explorer (Spanish, I think) did enter into his record of a trip on the Mississippi River that there were active villages all along the river, about a mile or so apart if my memory of what he wrote is correct. That same person was on a later trip (later by years) along the same route and the villages were gone and the area was mostly deserted. He commented on that change.

Some say that the population in North America exceeded the population of Western Europe prior to Spanish bringing illnesses for which the Indians had no immunity.

The books I mentioned, 1491 and 1493 were well worth the time spent in reading them. So much information. The books were not focused solely on the death of Indian civilizations and not solely on North America. Heck, I thought potatoes were from Ireland. Who knew that the Spanish brought them from South America and kept them a closely guarded state secret for years.

Back to the original story......was that the same John W.Poe that was in Pat Garretts posse when he was hunting Billy the Kid?

Billy was just misunderstood.

Today is the day after yesterday that was the day before today, but tomorrow will be the next day after today. But then tomorrow today will be yesterday.

Some good history books about the Southwestern Indians were written by Charles Leland Sonnichsen. For info about the Mescalero Apache tribe, look for books by Eve Ball.

Translation :

Monday tis the day after Sunday that twas the day before Monday. but Tuesday twill be the the next day after Monday Monday..
But then Tuesday today will be Sunday ?
i got a D- in grammer...

Disease is probably the one irrefutable cause of more deaths among NA than any other cause/effect. The numbers can be debated, but end result will follow that premise.

However, many groups came and went, disappearing into the vaults of the unknown. Only leaving behind hints and speculation as to their rise and fall. Their levels of “civilization.” The Lords of the Plains, the Comanche were for years much like the Coahuiltecans of Texas, a bunch of flea bitten, rag tag group of survivors. Farther North. When they acquired the horse, well most know the story. Never has there been a more feared and capable warrior of the plains. I used to take horses I trained to Palo Duro Canyon to completely test them to make sure their training would override their panic. If you have never ridden an Appaloosa up onto one of the mesas at sun down and sat and listened to the coyotes howl as the wind howls past and through you, well it cannot be adequately described. You can close your eyes and see the Comanches ride down the canyon, hear the unshod ponies as they thunder past. The smell even seems real of wet horses. I pray that exists in Heaven.

Anyway, I digress. The Buffalo was just one part of a story that stretches for as long as history exists. We could have the same discussion about the horse, the gun, farming, and the list never ends. The point is to see the story. Their story. Our story. To see the good, the bad, the disgusting, the injustice, the justice, and the list never ends. Through this we become part of an infinite story that gives definition to our existence. It defines the meaning of mankind. Right or wrong. Good or bad. It is our story and it gives us an unbreakable connection to the universe. What we do with that, well, that is our contribution, or legacy.

Pretty sure God wouldn’t allow anything as ugly as an appaloosa into Heaven.

Dems dare fiting wurds misster! LoL

But in truth, I wanted the color, but I wanted the rest quarter horse. I used app mares to quarter horse stallions.

The life of ancestors seems so romantic and simple, harsh at times, but appealing, at least to me.

I would love to snap my fingers and be an an Indian living on the western frontier 200 years ago as much as I'd love to snap my fingers and be a huge predatory bird, eagle or hawk, living in a valley in the mountains today!

The Indians got a raw deal. Everyone knows it, but as I always say, guns and cannons will defeat bows and arrows every time.

To Mr. Oxner who asked a question on page 2.

Every Buffalo Dead Is an Indian Gone." Those were the words of a U.S. Army colonel in 1867. Eight years later, General Phil Sheridan went as far as to commission medals to reward anyone who brought pelts from dead bisons. "Let them kill, skin, and sell, until the buffalo is exterminated.

I'm still not sure the name of the "colonel."

...------

That is very well put. Inspirational, even.

Yep