Asphyxiation not the cause of George Floyd's death: Autopsy

https://www.washingtontimes.com/new..._campaign=pushnotify&utm_medium=push

I hate to say it.........but

Wait! How trustworthy is the Washington Times?

How trustworthy is anyone within the news or government?

Now I want to see the toxicology report.

Yep!

Loaded on PCP and took all three of them all they had just to hold him down.

Is that what you are guessing?

I've seen nothing to support that.

I get to quote myself like Oxner does

What do you think you're doing? Only one man can quote himself......

I'm waiting for the official report, before I say anything......

SNEAKY , odd huh

HECK No! But you can bet the ranch someone will come up with a reason why it took three men to hold him down.

If a guy that large has narcotics in his system it does. Iv seen 80 girls high on you name that could make you look silly .

That report is full of bs. They killed the man and the Democratic Party hides it while blaming it on the Republican Party.
The world goes round

Yep.

no. the world is round, it rotates

Because we need another smart a$$ around here

I'm gonna do it too..... first page of riots in Minnesota thread.

The autopsy report you see is what they want you to see, doesn’t take much to figure it out.

Are you claiming heart attack via drugs, or heart attack due to the circumstances?

You joking? Asphyxiation would of had obvious signs that would be hard to miss/hide

X9

Who want's you to see?

Downtown Houston. No words.

And the thread continues to just get more odd

News reported the complaining merchant told PD he looked drunk or high and was acting erratically. So yea, let the toxicology report explain that.

The autopsy report won't be final until the toxicology report is done which is 3 to 4 wks. I don't think PCP, because it's not that common here in MN, Ketamine or bath salts are more likely.

Now they gotta return there TV’s right? They not gonna like that either.

This changes nothing.

My guess heart attack. When I had my bypass surgery, I was doing okay, then all at once I could not breathe, or at least felt that way, I started screaming I could not breath. Within in seconds a crash team was on me, they shoved nitro pills under my tongue, and was rolling my hell bent for leather to the Cath Lab. Sounds like he was prescribed nitro and needed a pill asap.

Yep, everyone was so upset about the knee to the neck, the failed to troubleshoot the situation. Difficulty breathing is one of the major symptoms of a heart attack.

I still want to see the video that's being held back, that will likely show him acting so crazy, he had to be put on his face and held down. We will see it, but not for a long time.

That’s what I’m saying. There is a reason he ended up on the ground but they ain’t showing it.

The crowd was on the cops side for a little bit. I imagine they saw him acting a fool. They changed their tune when the officer never got off him.

There will be an independent autopsy. I guarantee it.

It was obviously a Covid 19 death.

I saw something about the family having already hired someone.

Ketamine is a hell of a drug

I thought it was......

Autopsies are independent. But not independent enough for some.

They will hire some guy trying to get publicity and enter those at trial. And their expert will dispute the state or county medical examiner.

Oh, roger.

No, not at all. I suspected such things from the beginning.

Are those self-inflicted conditions what killed him?

There are three videos. One from when he was pulled out of the car through when he was walked across the intersection, one from when he was being kneeled on with his lower half obscured by the police SUV and one from directly behind that view showing the two other cops kneeling on his lower half.

I read here that the second and third videos were after he was in the car and they pulled him out for resisting arrest. If that’s true, it only brings up more questions. Why would they remove him from the car to put him on the ground after he was in the car?

The big questions that need to be answered are:

Why did three officers put their weight on him for nine minutes after he clearly was subdued and handcuffed? In the videos, he was clearly subdued with three officers on top of him.

Why did they stay on him for 9 minutes?

Did this contribute to his death? Would he have gone into cardiac arrest had he not been arrested, handcuffed and had three people laying on him, one with his knee on his neck area?

Yes, the family already requested one.

I've seen them slam their heads against the cage, window's and even the outside of the vehicle, trying to make it look like excessive use of force. Then file against the arresting officer. Maybe trying to kick out a window? All are reasons to take them back out of the vehicle and re-cuff or hobble. Like I keep saying, there's an important part of this missing and I'll bet it's on video.

The three were on his back for 9 minutes? You sure?

Or flu.

That report didn't help the cop's defense any.

Well, the tape kind of says it all.

Sneaky , what do you mean by " self inflected conditions "?

Pretty sure those words speak for theirselves. I’ve got better things to do than teach you a language you should already know.

Awww Sneaky , he have sad face. You suck when you have someone that questions you huh? My little kids do as well.

I’m sorry that your little kids suck. Other than that, I have no idea what you’re talking about.

Anyone with any merit could make the case a heart attack was precipitated by the distressed state of low oxygen being that his neck area was being knelt on for 7 minutes. Pre-existing cardiac disease can be found in most folks over the age 40, and if the ME/coroner stares a heart attack is the cause of death, the heart attack was caused by the situation of being in a hypoxia state.

If there are drugs found on toxicology (why does it take 3-4 weeks to get that stuff back when I can run a drug screen on any high schooler in about 30-45 minutes or less) then that can be a reason for an enhanced heart attack risk, but the bottom line is a heart attack is just the thing that killed him, there is no way to prove someone kneeling on his neck didn’t precipitate the heart attack, and the circumstantial evidence would suggest it did.

As has been said before, this report (if true) changes nothing.

Fully agree. I think the two guys on his back were just as responsible. They should arrest all 4.

His neck was knelt on for 8 minutes and 46 seconds, with 2 minutes and 53 seconds of that being after he was unresponsive.

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/ge...28-20/h_d6de512e51a8858a57f93ffa732c2695

So, if you want to argue semantics and say that all three weren’t on him for nine minutes, go for it, I’m not awake enough right now to argue. Bottom line, someone knelt on him for almost nine minutes, nearly three of which he was unresponsive (kind of hard to resist when you can’t respond) and at least a portion of those eight minutes and 46 seconds he not only had a guy kneeling on his neck, he had two others kneeling on his back and legs.

Im not arguing semantics. I asked a question. Because I didn't see what you described. Your words "Why did three officers put their weight on him for nine minutes after he clearly was subdued and handcuffed? In the videos, he was clearly subdued with three officers on top of him." I didn't see the picture you painted. Just verifying that I didnt miss something. There is a difference between arguing semantics, and arguing facts. No need to respond, I was just verifying your statement.

True, regardless of the official cause of death or toxicology, he died while the officer's knee was on his neck. I think the age old argument of "but for his actions" comes into play here and the officer will never get around that. We can argue forever that based on toxicology and preexisting medical conditions he COULD HAVE died in the back seat of the car had he been left there. The fact is he DID die with a knee on his neck and that fact doesn't go away.

My bad. Like I said,I wasn’t awake yet.

Pretty good guess in my opinion. That may be why all of the videos only show him on the ground instead of him slinging the cops around like someone high on PCP. I am so tired of all of these videos edited to show only one side of the story. I do agree that the knee to the neck was held to long and medical attention should have been addressed. But if there is a video showing them backing off and him getting violent again it might explain the actions by the cops.

One thing about this case is that facts will not matter and the officer will not receive a fair trial. The city has to find the officer guilty or else!

Doesn’t change my stance a bit. Just glad strangulation obfuscation is finished.

I'm gonna disagree. Knowing what he died of is very important to the case. Possible heart attack? Possible that drugs were involved? Possible drug induced heart attack? I dont think being an a-hole is a good reason to charge someone with murder. There is more info that needs to come out, like what happen to get him in that situation. Was he having a heart attack in the cruiser? Did he ever make it into the cruiser? I also heard he resisted getting into the cruiser because he was claustrophobic. Could he have worked himself into a heart attack? Could the thought of going to jail cause him to have a heart attack? There are a lot of circumstances that throw people into heart attacks. Why were the paramedics called? Because he was tripping out on drug? Or because he was hyperventilating? Because he was complaining about having a heart attack? Why and when were they called? To many question right now. The knee on the neck most likely didn't kill him IMO, but that's what plays on everyone's emotions.....then they dig in and wont listen to the facts because they have to much emotionally invested in their position.

Sad but true.

Yep, hell most on here have done the same.

Helloooooo - without the knee on the neck thingie, we probably would not be having this “discussion “.

Yep, not because it killed him, but because it is polarizing, and plays on people's emotions.

Disheartened here.

Yep, especially when 95% of the people have convicted someone of murder without facts. Very disheartening, and disturbing.

Why even investigate at this point.....sad sad world.

Dude if you think what you saw in that video was sop then I don't know what to say. But the moment. The moment that man went limp and that dude left his knee on the back of his head the entire situation changes. The officer had zero. Zero concern for his fellow man. Now if I was an officer and I had just wrestled that dude for 10 minutes I'd be pissed too heck I might have kicked him a few times. Which is why....... I'm not an officer.

I'm not arguing whether, or not the guy should keep his job....I'm arguing whether or not he should be tried for murder. What's wrong with getting fact before we convict some one of murder?

Has social media become the new judicial system? Has it come to this?

Well I think video is pretty obvious you know what I see with my own eyes I can make that judgment so no I'm not convicted the man of murder but I dang sure think he should be arrested and tried for murder.

I mean video evidence what else do you need? You have video of exactly what happened You saw exactly what I saw what else do you need.

In my opinion when we have video evidence of what happened there shouldn't even be a trial that dude should be hung from a tree right now. same with somebody that gets caught with a little kid Don't try them hang them from a tree right in the town square for everybody to see.

I dont want to think I know, I want to know I know.

That's exactly what it's become and many seem to like it that way.

Then there is this.

The cause of death, may be the difference, between 3rd degree murder and 2nd degree manslaughter.

I'm not speaking from emotion about what I believe happened or what I think should happen. I'm simply talking about indisputable facts. I'm not saying the cause of death isn't important to the case, I'm saying based on the facts it likely won't change where the case against the officer goes.

1. When he was put on the ground he was alive and communicating.
2. He died while he had the officer's knee on his neck.
3. Experts can make a compelling argument that the officer's actions contributed to his death.
4. Under these circumstances it's extremely difficult to impossible to prove the officer's actions did not contribute to his death, even if they didn't.

Those are simply facts, no emotion involved. I will say what the officer did was not Murder, at least in the context of Texas law. I believe Minnesota law uses Murder with varying degrees which would equate to Manslaughter or Criminally Negligent Homicide to cover lack of intent. Again, "but for his actions". It doesn't matter what else happened or what anyone believes might have happened otherwise, that term is not going to go away.

All that video shows is the "knee guy" is an a-hole....not that the a-hole killed him. Questions that need to be asked:

1) Did the knee to the neck directly cause the death? Asphyxiation...sounds like that's a no
2) Did the other two officers suffocate or in any other way directly cause the death? ....sounds like that's a no
3) from the initial report, sounds like a cardiac incident either exacerbated by drugs or directly caused by them.
4) Was he fighting with the officers even after handcuffed? if yes, I would argue the victim has some culpability in him having a heart attack.

I agree the officers should have let up when he went limp, but as S.A. has said, let's not let emotion get in the way of a sound investigation and a possible life sentence for at least 3 of the officers who's only "crime" confirmed by that video is being A-holes and whatever else you want to call them.

Would it change your line of thinking if the victim was not handcuffed, resisting officers and he had a heart attack in the process?

if not for the officers actions of trying to take him in to custody, he wouldn't have had a heart attack.....

I agree with you that a prosecutor could easily argue what you stated above. But a criminal defense attorney could easily argue the opposite.....

4 people watched him die and none lifted a finger to render aid. No one deserves that. No one.

That's a totally different scenario and has nothing to do with what I posted. In your scenario the person is actively fighting, in this one he was handcuffed on the ground. As I said in my post, nothing in it has anything to do with what I believe should or should not happen to the officer. It was simply an observation of relevant facts from the videos. You're correct that a defense attorney can argue anything they want, and had the guy been conscious when they got him up and had died later he might be successful. The guy died on video while handcuffed with the officer on his neck. That video would probably convict Jesus himself.

So then by this logic, the other two officers should be arrested and charged as well...since they were touching him when he died.

Come on man, do you really think another officer touching him is the same as holding him down with a knee on his neck? And where in my posts did I indicate I think that?

I guess I’m just using your logic. I mean no where did you nor the ME indicate where the cop putting his knee on him killed him. So if we’re going by “what looks bad” or “if not for his actions” as you put it, then why can’t one argue “if not for his actions” with the other two officers?

"no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation"; however, the combined effects of being pinned down by an officer as well as "his underlying health conditions and any potential intoxicants in his system likely contributed to his death."

That is reportedly from the M.E.'s office. I haven't seen enough of the videos to know exactly what the other officers were doing, but if the other officers were physically holding him down I get what you're saying to a degree. Still, it's not exactly a stretch to presume the officer with his knee on they guy's neck would get the brunt of whatever is coming. It's also not a stretch to argue just the reduction of oxygen (not fully cutting it off) for several minutes could have easily contributed to his death with his conditions, but that's for lawyers to fight over. I recall another officer or EMT checking for a carotid pulse while the officer's knee was still on his neck, not finding a pulse, and the officer stayed in that position for a period of time after that. I believe he stayed in that position for about two minutes after Floyd went limp. The bottom line is they don't have to prove the officer's actions alone killed Floyd, just that his actions contributed to his death and that his actions were not objectively reasonable.

Closer to three minutes after he went limp.

I just watched the video for the first time.

That was baaaaad.......!!!

Guys, I get what the argument is trying to say about cause of death and not directly related to being choked out.

BUT, a heart attack is nothing more than a lack of oxygen to the heart muscle. Any doctor would not be able to testify that someone kneeling on a persons neck and that person having a heart attack is not directly related to the actions of kneeling on the neck causing some of the lack of oxygen being delivered to the heart. Yes he may have had underlying heart disease, but that’s like saying you take a person with heart disease and place them in a environment with 5% oxygen for 4 minutes and then watch them pass out and leave them there for another three and then say the underlying heart disease was the cause of death and not the “being locked in a 5% oxygen room for 4 minutes and then after passing out and staying in there for another three minutes”

Let’s be real here, this guy would very likely not be dead if he was cuffed, left in the cruiser, and taken to the department. The problem is, we can argue very likely, not likely, possible all day long. The answer is he is dead and the heart attack can be linked in a very real way to a guy kneeling on his neck for 7 minutes, 3 minutes after he passed out. THAT is all that matters. There is no way to prove he would be dead any other way (cuffed in the cruiser, tripping out on drugs, etc) as those are all possibilities only. The only thing we know for sure is he is dead because his heart didn’t receive enough oxygen.

Regarding the other cops present, they should be tried as accomplices to manslaughter or murder or whatever. They watched and listened and didn’t react when the guy went limp to get their guy off and render aid. That’s like people in the room watching my analogy pass out and saying “yeah it’s fine, let’s see how long it takes for them to wake back up”
That is just not normal human behavior no matter what the circumstances were prior to the perp being taken to the ground. I can see waiting maybe 10-20 seconds, but come on, 3 minutes? We all have seen someone pass out, there are clues they aren’t faking it and it is pretty dang obvious these guys didn’t care one iota.


And let’s be honest here, if that was our kid, husband, brother, whatever, we’d be super pissed about the situation too. Let’s not forget george Floyd was a human being and not some object for our enjoyment, entertainment, or torture. I am not justifying the looting, violence, and craziness, but for dang sure I am advocating for protesting given this scenario.

You are assuming it was lack of oxygen........

^^^Anybody have cliff notes?^^^

SA, a heart attack is a lack of oxygen to the heart muscle. Myocardial infarction aka heart attack.

A coronary aneurysm would be classified as such, and a arrhythmia would be directly related to a lack of oxygen as well. I don’t know any situation where a doctor would testify the relative lack of oxygen from someone kneeling on the patients neck for 7 minutes could not be at least causal in the heart attack. It makes absolutely no medical sense to say it wasn’t. Especially since he was awake and alive for 4 minutes of the video, and unresponsive for 3 minutes, it would be just a bad medical opinion to say the heart attack wasn’t attributed to the neck kneeling.

If you have other thoughts please feel free to share. I am just giving my medical opinion but i know i am not always correct.

One thing we have to remember, yes there are times when kneeling on someone’s neck wouldn’t cause a heart attack. However, in this particular situation, someone knelt on someone’s neck and that person died from a heart attack. Two entirely different situations and one situation is not at all related to the other.

I know some folks don’t want to believe that those cops killed that man, and I’d like to believe that myself, but it’s time to give that idea up.

You are saying that, the knee caused the lack of oxygen and the lack of oxygen caused his heart attack..... I'm saying let's wait for the details to come out. I suspect they might of called for paramedics before he went unconscious. Maybe before he was on the ground........ waiting for the facts. The narrative that he suffocated because the knee to the back of the neck is sunk.

Did they render aid?

SA, I am not saying the knee to the neck caused a stoppage of oxygen, just a diminished supply of oxygen to the heart. That was enough to trigger the heart attack. Even if he was tripping on drugs, there is no guarantee he would have died from that alone, but couple some pre-existing cardiac disease, the knee on the neck decreasing his oxygen levels in an agitated state, and anything else, and that means he has an increased risk of dying from a heart attack. Which he did. It is my opinion you would be very hard pressed to find a doctor that says the knee on the neck wasn’t at least partially causative of the heart attack, unless there is tell tale proof he was having chest pain or other symptoms of a heart attack prior, but then you are getting into a failure to render aid and all that. I am not convicting anyone of anything just yet, but just saying the knee on the neck was a very likely cause of Floyd’s death.

I know this is an internet forum, but there is definitely one thing this whole incident has taught me -- I know who I would buy a beer for and who I wouldn't.

Hope EVERYONE stays safe and I mean that, whether I want to have a beer with you or not.

I find it rather amusing about all the debate on cause of death. Whatever it was the video is a slam dunk. Knee cop was responsible or assisted in the death of the man. Was in intentional? I don’t think so but...Nobody truly knows that except knee cop.
Knee cops D team has a long road to plow in my opinion. Knee cop will do time. How much is the question.

Roger, roger. Time will tell.

Yep, time will tell, if we ever see the real story on this one. Unfortunately it is such an incendiary I fear we won’t see the true story until it’s too late...may already be at that point

Yeah, lots and lots of pressure. That why I hate seeing thing get so publicised.

Hmmmm...

The irony of it or is it erony?







Inflicted

I think he mans lack of oxygen in the blood, not lack of oxygen to his lungs. Those are two very different things, and I’ve seen it said that kneeling on someone’s neck may not stop their breathing, like choking someone, but it may restrict an artery from delivering enough oxygen in the blood to the heart.

Still with the square peg in the round hole. It doesn't fit....

You can take it to the bank when Texas buckeye post it. He's one of the smartest men I know. What I call "stick toitness." He calls it "tenacity."

I think yall are splitting hairs on the cause of death at this time. If the judge had sent us to deliberate then yes. If yall enjoy discussing then i guess ill keep trying to learn from yall--seems like we should have better things to do, but here i am, so theres that....
Now, if there was anything exciting in the Deer Hunting section i would be outa here.

Some like to talk, debate, and discuss things.... Some don't. Only problem is that some take things to heart.

Like the victim

Well articulate.

SA, considering how little I know about you I like you. I definitely like TxBuck. I figure yall were on debate teams in HS and i would pay to watch. My money would be on TB. I may throw Hud in there too but im not sure the debate judges give extra credit for his 3 word gems. Alls good gents, just consider me halftime entertainment, carry on.

That’s really my point. Kneeling on ones neck doesn’t always kill someone, probably pretty rarely (don’t know that it has ever been studied (yes that’s a joke in case anyone is wondering)) but in this situation he died. We have an initial cause of death as heart attack, I haven’t seen the ME report to know more about the cause of death. But anyone with some medical knowledge would have to agree that kneeling on his neck for 7 minutes had at least some partial cause in the heart attack. And that’s all that matters, in this case. The victim/perp died, while cops did something that almost certainly had some play in that cause.

The argument could/will be made “so doctor, in your opinion, had mr Floyd’s neck not been impinged for 7 minutes and his oxygen levels in his blood not been reduced from normal levels, would he have had as high a chance for having a heart attack?”

The answer to that question is a resounding “No”

In a trial, that is all the evidence needed. And then the jury gets to hear about the lack of aid rendered for an additional three minutes when he passed out....”had the officers administered their AED in a timely manner is it possible Mr Floyd would still be alive?”

The answer to that is not “no”

Again, guilty and guilty. When this goes to trial, the cop(s) will be found guilty of some sort of crime, not sure the type, but they were for sure negligent on their watch in several regards, one (cop) more so than the others.

I am not a betting man and would not put money on myself in something that is judged....having said that I appreciate SA’s civil discussions. As he has said before we don’t always see eye to eye and that is A OK in my book, but when people start acting all libtard and start going personal and calling names, that’s when it gets ridiculous. SA, and I sure try to do the same, doesn’t do that, so I enjoy his insights. We can all learn something from everyone, even if not technical knowledge, we can still learn how to better phrase things or present things.

You sum it up pretty well! Culpable negligence is 2nd Degree Manslaughter. Callous indifference, when he should have known Floyd was in medical distress, is 3rd Degree Murder.

Beat me to it.

I don’t understand what this means. Like I said earlier in one of these threads, whether he died from choking or heart attack changes nothing. The subject of this thread is that he wasn’t suffocated, per the autopsy report, and Buckeye has explained that kneeling on someone’s neck can cause oxygen levels in the blood to drop, causing a heart attack, which would explain the heart attack a man suffered when a cop kneeled on his neck for nearly nine minutes.

Just because the man didn’t die from asphyxiation doesn’t change a thing. I am not sure what doesn’t “fit,” in your opinion. He still died in police custody as a result of a cop kneeling on his neck for nine minutes, nearly three of which he was unresponsive.

Nothing has changed.



Well said. I definitely like to debate.

I know I'm just a truck driver, but I did spend 4 years in radiology before I made the move. I've seen plenty of C.T.s, MRIs, Angiograms, and central line placement. I'm have a good idea of where the carotid/jugular are relative to the C-spine. If I were the defense I would spare no expense on a forensic scientist. My argument would be that with the Floyd being prone and facing away from the officer, Floyd's trapezius muscle, and the angle of the officer's leg would of prevented the knee from restricting blood flow from the carotid. Now if Floyd was facing the officer I would 100% agree that the officer's knee would of definitely restricted blood flow. The knee would of pinned the carotid against the c-spine.

I would want to know if he was under the influence of drugs at the time of his death. If so, what drug? What effects does the drug have on the body? What effects would a struggle have on top of that? Would a elevated Blood Pressure/ adrenaline cause a heart attack? Would also want to know when and why were the paramedics called. I suspect they were called before he died. This might indicate a possible heart attack before the knee.

I don't know what kind of heart failure was involved, but I would want to know what if any first aid would of/could of saved him. Did the officer have anything on hand that could of saved him, like blood thinners, defibrillator ect ect.

With all that being said, my final question to the doctor/ expert would be can you say 100% that the knee is what lead to the heart failing. Is the knee what killed him?

I am not understanding Hunter's argument here.

SA I get what you are saying there, and as I mentioned there is no way to prove the knee 100% caused the heart attack. And there is no need to 100% prove the knee caused the heart attack. All they have to do
Is have some expert testify the knee was likely a part in the heart attack not the ultimate cause. Did the knee contribute to the heart attack...that’s all. The reason that’s all they have to show is because Floyd died, he had a heart attack while in police custody. The burden of proof is different now, because this happened on their watch. The burden shifts from what caused the heart attack to what contributed to the heart attack and did the cops actions. Directly contribute to the heart attack. The burden of proof lies in the defense finding someone willing to say with 100% certainty the knee could not have precipitated a heart attack. That, in my medical Opinion, is not going to happen. The plaintiffs will definitely have expert after expert that will testify the knee could have been a factor in the heart attack. That is all they need since the burden of proof isn’t on them due to the fact Floyd DID have a heart attack and died.

There is a huge difference between saying the knee would cause of heart attack and the knee could cause a heart attack. But that is a big difference in this case. The shift in burden of proof is critical.

and the guy died

I always look to my friends who are cops in situations like this. All i know is that I’ve seen dozens of them comment that they too are outraged by the way that officer acted.

I not even gonna try to say I know anything about the law, and or the court system. Alls I know about that is that it that whether you win are lose, the real winners are always the lawyers.

I dont think anyone likes what they saw.

The question is, was the officer responsible for floyds death.

Under Minnesota's 3rd Degree Murder Statute the state doesn't need to prove direct cause. They need to prove that his wanton disregard for what was obviously a medical situation contributed to Mr Floyd's death. If they can't prove that but prove culpable negligence then it's 2nd Degree Manslaughter.

That was what mu understanding is, that is why they didn't file 1st degree charges. With the 1st degree charge they would have to prove intent.

This is my fear, not because of any desire to defend the cops, but because getting away from the facts of the case, getting away from recognizing how a collision of circumstances create a culminating factor that is only one part of the chain of events, that can be a deep, dark hole. And could be an injustice, for all.

But of course the other fear is what the riots will look like if certain facts do come about, I am not claiming to know any of these one way or another, and those facts are heeded, and these guys do walk or not get the charges expected. The psychology of fear response, on both arresting officers and detainees, how the brain gets in self protect mode and doesn't think "rationally" to an outside observer, is going, or should be, what so much of this is about, and why officers tend to not be convicted in such cases. And, that fear response applies to the protesters too, in some ways that I guess I just can't really, deeply, actionably understand.

I'm not trying to conclude or advocate for any stance, just processing out loud with ya'll.

I agree. How we comment on here shines a light on who we are, or at least how others perceive us. Thank goodness on THF the list of who I buy a beer for outnumbers the ones i wouldnt.

Yeah, imagine the outrage if the cop walks....you ain’t seen nothing yet if that happens!

I brought this up last week. It will be over a year before he goes to trial. His defense will have a good bias argument with video. The appeals could go on for years. The protesters may do more harm than good.

the protesters will get trump re-elected.

Fox reporting that independent autopsy shows he died from "asphyxia due to neck and back compression"

ETA - Not surprising that it's different than the ME report, but I'd call this "polarizing" since it's a full 180

Oh boy..


Who to believe.......?

George Floyd died of asphyxia: family medical examiner’s autopsy

https://nypost.com/2020/06/01/george-floyd-died-of-asphyxia-to-neck-family-mes-report/

After all this BS, does anybody think there’s even a 1% chance of that?

Medical examiner now says death was “homicide resulting from being restrained”

Doesn’t that automatically put LEO#2 with the weight on Floyd’s back in trouble?

Did they stay there the whole time?

Who knows what to believe.

How can 2 autopsy's produce so different results? Maybe because the 2nd one was paid for! So when will the 3rd come out?

The legal system is set up to allow technicalities to let guilty men walk. If the cops defense team finds evidence of shotty work or can get this thing on a mistrial, we all better be on alert.

Trust me, I don’t want that to happen. I want a good clean trial and guilt or innocence based on the facts of the case, but if the defense pleads down so the cop gets 1-2 years or something perceived as too light, it could still be just as bad.

All depends who is trying the case for the state. If they know what they are doing it should go as it should. If they are not good, TScouldHF

Its more than a year away. It will be after the election.

You can pay cash for any result you want to get? The guy is for hire for any family that wants a result different than the official verdict.

Isn't this the same pathologist that performed the second Epstein autopsy? Hasn't he performed several others that conflict with official autopsies? I think anyone with the intelligence of a frog can see what this guy is doing.

Obvious he'll hire out to anyone for the money.

I don’t know that I’d put much stock into a report payed for by the victim’s family. Such things should be done by someone with nothing to gain or lose.

Anyway, Prayers for everyone involved and prayers for our country. This is nothing but a bunch of criminals run amuck. Hopefully justice will come to all those who are burning our cities and injuring people. The actions of these folks just show that they have no interest in George Floyd, or what happened, just an opportunity to do violence, destroy property, and steal.

Care to re-word this blasphemy?

I don't need to re-word anything and it is my opinion of what is happening. Do you care to mind your own business?

Concho have a drink on me, you’re wound up tighter’n a drum! Bullfrog, intelligence OF a frog? It was a joke.

Make me famous slick

Ahhhh, I see what you did there now, my apology sir, I'll call you Joker from here on out.

well, don’t mind if I do! Lol

Your Sig is still disturbing.

He was on fentanyl and had a heart attack

One might say the Chinese killed him

https://www.tmz.com/2020/06/01/george-floyd-cause-of-death-heart-attack-fentanyl/

Patiently waiting for the "this changes nothing" crowd to show up and say......this changes nothing.....

TMZ?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...psy-findings-released-monday/5307185002/

Fentanyl causes respiratory failure only in an overdose. It does nothing to cause a heart attack.

This is the proverbial, this changes nothing.

The ME even linked the heart attack to the neck and chest compression.

Is the contention now that he was on so much fentanyl that it caused a heart attack or that he was resisting so forcibly that he needed to be restrained for nine minutes? Either he died because he had a heart attack due to the strongest opioid on the planet or he was resisting so badly that he needed to be pulled out of the car and subdued by three police officers. Right?

I’ve seen someone with an opioid addiction (and was on fentanyl). They live their lives in slow motion. They aren’t possessing the ability to resist to the level of restraint needed that was shown on the video.

But, really, the county ME ruled it a homicide.

This changes nothing. Again.

I will say again, opioids did not cause a heart attack unless there is respiratory failure first. Opioids cause respiratory failure, and the lack of oxygen caused by the respiratory failure will eventually lead to a heart attack and death. But someone strung out to that point is laying down, turning blue, and even then they have quite some time before they die. This guy was not strung out on fentanyl. He didn’t die from fentanyl and the fentanyl didn’t contemporaneously cause his death. The heart attack killed him and that can be linked to someone kneeling on his neck and chest for 9 minutes.

Copied from drug free.org.
Controlled substance
High risk for addiction and dependence. Can cause respiratory distress and death when taken in high doses or when combined with other substances, especially alcohol.

We all knew he did his part to cause his own death, but he wasn’t alone in that. TB is a medical professional, if that matters in your “changes nothing” crowd.

Please listen to this when I say this, opioids cause respiratory failure when someone takes too much. Most of us have taken some form of opioids, Percocet, OxyContin, etc, for surgeries and when taken in moderation they do nothing other than give a little high from feeling good but they pose no risk to death. Only when they are taken in such high doses do opioids have a risk for death, and in that situation the user is laying down, unresponsive and not breathing or breathing very shallowly. This was NOT the situation Floyd was in. He was awake, talking. Trying to pass a bad check. Could the opioids explain him trying to pass a bad check? Sure. They do NOT explain away a heart attack because opioids don’t cause those.

Ask any paramedic why they carry Narcan in their units now, it’s to be an antidote for opioid overdose and get the person breathing again.

Well apparently Doctor, you missed the part that said he also had methamphetamine in his system. Would that change anything? We still don’t know how much of these substances were in the blood.
All SOME people can see is a knee on a neck.

First of all of this could be nothing more than a red herring.

Now think about this one M.E. said Cardiac Arrest, one said respiratory arrest. Floyd claimed he couldn't breath, clearly his airway wasn't obstructed, but could Fentanyl which is known for respiratory arrest have played a roll in that?

If a someone says fentanyl "changes nothing" in a patient that say he cant breath....... well that just doesn't seem right.

Kind of creeps me out.

For the record, my post was asking those who are saying the autopsies change everything what the story is now, because both autopsies listed homicide and some have argued that he must’ve resisted so badly they needed to sit on him for nine minutes, but are now saying he essentially overdosed. It can’t be both.

In short, I agree with you, but you’re explaining it from a medical standpoint.

Again, this changes nothing.

No I didn’t miss that part, I saw that but it wasn’t active meth in his system, it was a history of meth in his system which means either they detected the breakdown products of meth or saw some tell tale signs of meth use. The ME report said nothing about active meth in his system. Only fentanyl.

Look I am not trying to get in a shouting or pissing match with anyone on this. All I am
Saying is the ME report said the guy had fentanyl in his system, and the heart attack was linked to demons kneeing on his neck. That was specifically in the ME report. What was not in the report was any details of how they came to that conclusion. Would love to see the actual findings, but most on here wouldn’t understand most of it and I would understand only some of it. Still would be interesting to read.

No, the report only says fentanyl intoxication, meaning it was in his system. We have all seen someone who is tipsy, someone who is drunk, someone who is crunk, and hopefully not many have seen someone with alcohol overdose. There are levels of intoxication, but a fentanyl overdose would be him laying on the ground catatonic and not breathing. That’s not what the ME report is saying, it just stares fentanyl intoxication which means he had some fentanyl in his system. Technicalities that mean a lot to medical examiners but can be confusing due to the language.

If you have never seen folks on opioids then you would understand. Not trying to be a “know it all” but the respiratory distress from opioids comes right at the end of an overdose. It is a sudden onset but when it happens people just pass out and don’t complain they can’t breathe. The high puts them into a catatonic stare where they just don’t have a will to do anything. Someone ODing on fentanyl would not complain for 4 minutes they can’t breathe and then suddenly go down unless they were still using. They take the hit, the body shuts down, and they go to sleep. The amount of fentanyl needed to do this would be based upon the tolerance level of the user too, the more you use the more it takes.

Anyway, the video does not support someone ODing on opioids. It supports someone being essentially crushed to death by three people sitting on him and reducing his ability to breathe up until he passed out and then still sitting for three more minutes

^^^^^^^^^^truth^^^^^^^^^^^

I can’t read all the back and forth. But I have not seen anywhere that Floyd died from a heart attack.
I see he died from cardiopulmonary arrest, cardiac arrest. Which is a stoppage of the heart.

I’m no pathologist. But a heart attack seems more of blockage related.

Common lay term for cardiopulmonary arrant is a heart attack. It just means the heart stopped working. A lot of different causes. Coronary artery Blockage is just one cause.

But you are correct, the terminology gets fuzzy when we converse in lay terms and don’t use the scientific terms. Certain assumptions are made with heart attack vs cardiac failure.

I’m talking about the people here and social media saying the autopsy exonerates the officers.

I've asked this question before. I've only seen the video of one officer on the guy, with one knee on the neck and the other on the scapula area. I have seen a still shot of three officers on the guy, but were they on him the whole time? How many officer total worked that scene? In the video two officers are at the front of the car, one at the rear , and of course the officer with the knee on the neck.

Why did he have Fentanyl in his system and where did he get it? Are you telling us this is a common prescription drug? It is time to question exactly what was going on here, not just yelling "Look at the video!" Some of the police carry antidote for opioids, because Fentanyl KILLS PEOPLE everyday.

Perhaps they should have used it on him instead of doing nothing.

Why did he have Fentanyl in his system and where did he get it? Are you telling us this is a common prescription drug? It is time to question exactly what was going on here, not just yelling "Look at the video!" Some of the police carry antidote for opioids, because Fentanyl KILLS PEOPLE everyday.
[/quote]

Perhaps they should have used it on him instead of doing nothing.[/quote]

Bob, I agree the officers were lacking in this death, the one officer has been charged and I have no problem with those charges, that is why we have trials to decide guilt or innocence. Believe me most officers are as concerned about this death as you, most try to be fair, honest, and are dedicated to helping people. I don't believe that what this man had in his system can be totally blamed for his death, Floyd should have been transported for medical treatment and there are other ways to restrain the combative, although it is better if people being arrested or detained don't have to be restrained at all. I'm simply asking what else was going on with George Floyd.

From the past two pages it looks like he had Fentanyl in his system. He also had meth. He fought with the police. He was a criminal. Doc above says that Fentanyl would cause him to lay down, breath shallow, and pass out or have a heart attack if he used too much. Maybe he was using it in the car right before the police pulled him out. Maybe it started to take affect after he fought with the police for 10 minutes. Maybe he overdosed in police custody.

As for the paid for autopsy, that changes nothing.

No way will he ever be convicted of first degree murder. There was no premeditation.

Perhaps they should have used it on him instead of doing nothing.[/quote]

Bob, I agree the officers were lacking in this death, the one officer has been charged and I have no problem with those charges, that is why we have trials to decide guilt or innocence. Believe me most officers are as concerned about this death as you, most try to be fair, honest, and are dedicated to helping people. I don't believe that what this man had in his system can be totally blamed for his death, Floyd should have been transported for medical treatment and there are other ways to restrain the combative, although it is better if people being arrested or detained don't have to be restrained at all. I'm simply asking what else was going on with George Floyd.[/quote]


I agree fully.

That's why they filed second and third against him.

Or maybe he tried to swallow the evidence like so many do.

Perhaps they should have used it on him instead of doing nothing.[/quote]

Bob, I agree the officers were lacking in this death, the one officer has been charged and I have no problem with those charges, that is why we have trials to decide guilt or innocence. Believe me most officers are as concerned about this death as you, most try to be fair, honest, and are dedicated to helping people. I don't believe that what this man had in his system can be totally blamed for his death, Floyd should have been transported for medical treatment and there are other ways to restrain the combative, although it is better if people being arrested or detained don't have to be restrained at all. I'm simply asking what else was going on with George Floyd.[/quote]

Well said, Concho.

Did anybody else notice that the ME’s report listed time of death at after 9PM ?
I thought the incident happened earlier in the day.

Time of death would be when it was called in the hospital.

The incident occurred around 8:27 pm, so transport, a little work on himat hospital, official time fo death would be close to 9 easy.

Someone has to go on record and call it, that takes time on occasion.