Force Fetch

I've gotten a lot of great advice and knowledge on here so far.

In your opinion, what training/conditioning needs to be complete before you start force fetch?

Thanks in advance.

Pointing breed or just retrieving?

On a lab, just retrieving.

The dog should have its adult teeth.

Should show some enthusiasm for retrieving.

Should be collar conditioned.

Basic obedience.

A good relationship with its handler/owner.

What if you have no intention of using a collar? Define basic OB. Sit, heel, here, give????

And if a dog already brings the down bird to you, is the Force Fetch needed?

My dog will bring anything back but force fetch is supposed to clean up a lot of issues with dropping birds before delivering to hand, being mouthy with the bird during retrieve, and several other bad habits they can acquire. I think it depends on how demanding you are going to be of your dog from what I have researched. If done properly, the dog is not supposed to release a bird or dummy... or anything you tell it to fetch until it is told to release.

I'm going to start mine on force fetch in about two months, he'll be around 8 months then.

Seems like one of the more difficult parts to training though, so I wanted to get some words of wisdom on it first :-)

I will jump in here.

There is no need for a collar. You can use an ear pinch or a toe pinch.

"Give" will be part of your "trained retrieve"/"force fetch" training.

So in very basic form the goal is to use pressure (ear pinch) until the dog takes the training tool in his mouth, immediately release the pressure when the dog secures the training tool, while assisting him to secure it at first, then command "give", then keep repeating the process until the dog understands to hold the object until directed to release it?

I know there is more to it than that, but in a nutshell that seems like the process.

No, it is not, especially if your gun dog is retrieving various game well, and you are pleased. It is just another level of training and part of standard path to a fully finished gun dog (retriever or pointer).

"Hold" is part of this process. "Fetch" is "pick it up". There are some great videos out there of the process. Have a look and ask questions.

I've researched two methods.

Traditional which includes ear pinch, walking fetch and stick fetch.

Hillmann's method which I am leaning toward which includes teaching the command "fetch" just like you would teach "sit" or "here" etc. Then use the e-collar to reinforce the command with repetition and numerous light nicks of the e-collar.

Leaning toward Hillmann's but have not decided. Might incorporate both.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QyADULYs8oc
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-J-52dyi7Ng

Passthru, if you are not going to use an e-collar then i know you aren't going like traditional FF.

If you do not have any intention of using an e-collar and you do not like traditional FF then there is no way that I am aware of that you'll be able to force fetch your dog.

You really should spend some time on Bill Hillmann's blog and watching his YouTube videos. I think you'll like his approach and use of the e-collar.

I've been researching those Jay. Those videos help me tremendously... I've been following a guy named Freddy King on there... he has most everything broken down into steps that are pretty easy for someone new to training like me to follow. But I like getting everyone else's advice on here as well because it helps to foresee any problems that might occur as a result of a mistake I may make or something not mentioned in those videos.

Thanks again!!!

Brady I have no intention of force fetching my pup. I'm not man enough to handle that. I intend to pay a professional to do that. Chances are I will have her collar conditioned and trained as well. I was just asking that as a curiousity.

I know I will never be a force in the FT or HT circles and that is not my intent. However I wouldn't mind getting her at least a little something to put on her resume.

The Hillmann approach is super easy to follow and it takes a lot of pressure off. Before you decide to send her off take a look at his stuff. If you can purchase or borrow the "Training a retriever puppy" DVD.

If it's not collar conditioned first, using a collar to do force will be a mistake. Always remember- the more pressure you use the better trainer you have to be.

Robby

What happens when the dog doesn't bring back the bird? How do you make the dog come back with it and ensure it doesn't happen again?

That's a really good question. One that I can not answer as I have not had that happen. But, what could be done????

Hillman, Lardy, Wolters. They are all pretty easy to follow. I just don't have the heart for it. I just flat don't want to do it myself. I have her retrieving well, working double marks and pretty steady to the gun and bumper drop. I've even made progress on the whistle and by the end of the season should have her running blinds. I'm not pushing her hard and am using as much patience as I can muster.

I also know from past dogs that FF can be frustrating to me as well as the dog and I don't like getting that frustrated. I don't handle it well and I don't want to take it out on the dog.

So I will let someone who is not as emotionally attached to her, knows, not thinks they know like me, knows what they are doing, handle something that I cannot.

Not sure what you mean by not having the "heart for it"

Hillmann's method is basically just like playing fetch with your dog.

I think you'll run into problems if your not prepared to continue working with your dog on the things they will learn and how they will be taught by pro with an e-collar.

I'm prepared to learn and continue. I work with her on hold and if she drops a bumper I make her pick it back up and bring it to hand. FF may not be needed for her for my hunting needs but ands I said I would like to have a least a junior ranking for her at some point.

Of course, the handler will probably have to get the bird himself and some amount of frustration may ensue.

I'm sure the trainer I choose can train me as well.

What I still want to know is what OB training is cosidered adequate to send your dog for collar conditioning and FF?

From what I have seen, all you are doing is applying slight pressure to the dog's ear and making them slightly uncomfortable... once the dog fetches the object, the discomfort is immediately removed. Then it is a matter of repeating the process enough times so that the dog understands the faster he holds the object, the quicker the discomfort is removed. The longer he holds the object, the less the discomfort is applied.

Seems almost identical to using a collar to force to place or pile by starting with continuous and advancing to nicks. The faster they force to place or to pile, the less pressure is applied by collar.

It really isn't that bad for the dog if you do it correctly and have patience. That's how I look at it anyways, but I can understand someone's concern with what could go wrong if done incorrectly.

Its a difficult process for amatures to do it properly. It requires reading the dog correctly and not getting played. I have helped a pro in the past, reforced one of my own dogs, and currently forcing two 6mo old pups of mine. I have some guidance, its not a fun process, but it is something i want to learn in order to keep moving forward in my own learning process.

Retrievers are born to retrieve but FF teaches the dog how to turn off pressure and to deal with it by compliance.

I collar conditioned Buck once he had sit, heel, and come by voice pretty much down. I then integrated the collar and whistle at the same time reinforcing those same OB commands. Once he had those we started working on forcing to place with the collar (that's what we have been working on the last week or so). The collar really helps them know that when you give a command to obey it immediately, sometimes they will try and test you by being really lax about it if they aren't collar conditioned. Once collar conditioned, they basically try and obey the command to beat the nick.

Not trying to be a smart A$$ here so please don't take it that way.

When you say sit the dog sits. Not just getting their butt on the ground but staying there until you release or give another command, even with distractions present. This also means no noise, calmly accepting praise, being able to tug on the leash and the dog not move, and even not wiggling around to be collared.

Here- comes immediately despite the distractions on verbal and whistle and front finishes on and off lead.

Heel- walks at heel without lagging or forging. Can pivot on the about turn and stay in position. Can back up and stay in position. Can come to heel from any position in the environment and sit sqaurely in relation to the handler.

This would be a minimum before moving on. I apologize if I'm mistaken but it sounds like you are on a budget and trying to send your dog for the minimum amount of time. This is fine but obedience must be solid before moving on and is a lifelong standard. I hate timelines but I will give one here. Normally this would be about an 8 week process of every day training. If you are not using the collar plan on doubling or even tripling the time that it will take you to get to the standard, especially if you can't train every day.

That is what I was looking for. And like most working people I do have a budget but I had figured 2 to 4 months. She is pretty solid on much of it. Now other dogs are a BIG distraction for her. She wants to play too much. But I've started working with a buddy and his pup so I hope to get a better grip on that in the next few weeks. I hope to get set up to send her in February.

And if I had someone who knew how to properly collar condition and could teach me to apply it properly I would get that done before then but I'm the educated on in dog training of my hunting friends and it's the blind leading the blind here.

Sit is the most important command before force fetch. The dog must know sit. Otherwise you will have a really long road to hoe. Heel and here can be a little sloppy beforehand, but sit is a must. When you force a dog you need to be able to concentrate on that one thing, as should the dog. Problems occur when things get complicated, such as commanding fetch then sit then having to put pressure on sit as well. It's a process best learned from one who knows what is going on.

Good luck
Robby

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