Is 100 FPS gain worth less accuracy?

Tested out a new load for my 6.8 today. It was averaging 100 FPS faster than my usual load, but a couple 10th’s of an inch less accurate. 115 Noslers with 30 grains of 8208 XBR averages 2450 FPS, while 115 Noslers with 27.7 grains of AA2200 averages 2550.

On a side note; using magnum primers helps accuracy.

I can't imagine that a "couple of tenths" more accuracy will ever be noticed in the field.

on the other hand, I don't think you would ever notice 100 fps difference in the field, either.

Would that small of a gain be noticeable when it comes to bullet drop or wind?

Noticeable could be, but inside 200 yards not enough to worry about IMO.

I wouldn’t worry about a “couple tenths” on an inch. Take the 100 FPS.

It depends on what you are doing with the rifle and how much accuracy you need. In my loading most times accuracy trumps speed within reason.

I'd nearly always take the accuracy. You can correct for the speed, but you can't make a gun shoot straighter than the load will allow.

How many groups. If 5 or so groups averaged slightly bigger than numerous of my normal load then I might stay with my original. If it just one group then I gonna take the speed and hope I get better results as I use it more.

I shoot hogs with my 6.8 and within 150 yards. That 100 FPS gives better energy transfer, I'd rather have that than a few tenths, especially after that first has em runnin. It really depends on what you are doing with the load.

I’m not sure if this is 3 or 4 shots. One thing I found is this gun is very picky with powder charge. Usually there’s a perfect charge of a particular powder that gives me great groups over a range. This one is awesome or horrible.

Just one group.

No

Unless you’re shooting mice the effective range of the 6.8 would lead me to take the speed every time. Keep the old load for target and bragging rights but for pig/deer size game the speed will trump even .5 worth of accuracy in that caliber in my opinion.

I agree with you. A lot of people talk about long range hunting with a 6.8, but .270 it isn't. I know they share .270 bullets.

Yeah if it's for short range hunting and the accuracy difference isn't monumental, then take the speed.

I'm going to pick the one that goes where I tell it to every time.

I thought you were in the .1 MOA category? That's not .1 MOA!

You wanted a pic of this load’s group. The whole thread is about this load being faster, but less accurate. Reading is paramount.

I know you’re reloading Jesus, but you could be a lot less hostile to those also producing good loads.

I was wanting to see those .1 moa groups that you tout about. You "talk" (or keyboard in this case) like all your ammo shoots under the .7 moa and your best load is .1 moa. I am challenging you to this fact head on. A simple one time 3 shot group does not make a rifle a .1 moa rifle. A blind squirrel will find a nut once in a while.

Ok, sure, I may know my way around the reloading room. And I also have a college education, so I understand reading comprehension. The most important thing you are not understanding, is I have MANY years of experience in load development at the gun range, shooting competitions, and being a range officer. I know what it takes to have a "system" (rifle, ammo, shooter ability) to have a very accurate set up, especially sub 1/2 moa accuracy.

The internet warriors that "claim" they have some rifle shooting .X moa groups for a once in a life time 3 shot group of .1 moa accuracy, does NOT make a "system" capable of .1 moa accuracy. Sure, it may shoot good for 1- 3 shot group, but it's not .1 moa consistent "system".

If you are claiming this, I want to see it in person. If you can shoot your 6.8 SPC, AR-15 in a 5 shot group of .2 moa (I'll even double your accuracy claim for you) at 100 yards in a controlled environment, I will pay your full travel expenses to come from Katy, TX up to Wolfe City, TX (where I shoot), plus hotel stay and gas. Then, I want to wager on the results to an amount acceptable for the both of us.

.2 moa= .209" group center to center, or .486" from outside edge to outside edge for a 6.8, .277" bullet, 5 shot group.

When are you coming? Otherwise, you're just another "internet warrior" who sits behind a f'in keyboard spouting [censored] out.

Yes, I would have to see the rest of the groups before any comments could be made. Let me dig through my targets, I think I can find 1, 1 hole group.

to answer your question, it doesn't matter

Thing is, you requested pictures on this thread. You didn't say "can you post the .1 group?". I will promise to try to dig out a target where I tested that load on, and the subsequent sessions. It was done a couple years ago, so no certainty I still have it.

I wasn't touting anything. I was responding with information on a thread not too long ago. The difference in you and I, is I don't get defensive when someone posts a good group. This is fun for me. I can prove my unbias. Someone posted a tiny group recently, and I was impressed with your skill after I found out it was you. I praise other people doing well at this hobby. I prefer to glean knowledge instead of labeling someone "fake, lying, etc". Lots of my good loads are from other folk's experiences. 30-06 is proving to be bear at finding an accurate load for though......

Your point about a one time group is illogical. If a rifle does a certain group one time, it's capable of it all the time. That's a simple concept. Now, the shooter might not do it all the time, but the rifle is still capable of it all the time. Myself, certainly have bad days at the range, so no, it's not a constant thing. I was having a lackluster day when I was testing this load.

If you have a problem with anything I post, there's an ignore button, or simply not responding. Nothing I have ever posted, has questioned your ability, so the hostility is uncalled for. I might even be one of the folks who has bought ammo from you.

It's really not a crazy notion my rifle shoots that well. I was using a rifle built with great parts, using a precisely measured charge, match bullet, and good skill.

So, when are you coming out? Man, why has no one EVER taken me up on a deal like this....? Hummm.

And BTW, I'm not defensive at all. I'm just calling you out on .1 moa.



This is what you claim. .1 to .7, nothing higher than .7. I'm here to prove it wrong. See you soon, yes!!??

You missed the key words “that I shoot regularly”. I have a couple that don’t get shot all that much because frankly, I’m not really interested in using them because they’re not accurate. It’s also not possible to have several accurate guns?

I think the thing you’re missing is I have zero concern whether you believe or not. The only one getting worked up is you.

We just operate differently. I tend to believe people unless proven wrong. You should try it.

Yup.

Anyone with enough experience knows that.

That is basic logic. You’re telling me that a rifle can “decide” to one time magically shoot a certain group, then go back to less performance never to do it again.

That is the opposite of logic. Thats like saying a quarterback who completes a hail mary to win a game should just throw the ball in the end zone on every play because it worked that one time. The rifle isnt the only variable in shooting. You can luck into a good group once or twice and its just that, luck.

The football is capable of flying through the air for a touchdown every time though. You’re not focusing on the tool only, which I am. Those variables have no bearing on capability, only what it does under under influence.

I already acknowledged that, and went so far as to say I can’t repeat it every time. I specifically said the rifle is capable of repeating it. My point shows the illogic of their belief that one certain size group doesn’t make a rifle that accurate. It has to be that accurate to get the group in the first place. It’s not luck.

I have a rifle that once printed a three-shot group measuring 0.18 inch. Anyone who tries to tell me it should do it every time should buy that rifle from me. How's THAT for logic?

Do you weigh powder to the kernal?

Do you weight sort brass?

Do you weight sort primers?

Do you weight sort bullets?

Do you clean, anneal, trim, chamfer debur, and neck turn brass?

^^EVERY TIME YOU LOAD

Does the rifle have the exact round count on it as it did the last time you shot for an official group?

Is the powder the exact same lot number as the last time you shot for an official group?

Is the temperature, density altitude, wind speed and direction exactly the same as the last time you shot for an official group?

I’m done trying to explain logic to people who can’t grasp it. Go poop on someone else’s thread. I had a response typed out, but it’s pointless.

Well, it can and not be luck.....

For you to be right, you’d have to assert that you don’t have .18 capable rifle even though it shot that good. That’s illogical.

So you don't have the data, or the answers.

See the trend? You continuously stand on an island by yourself, insisting you are right, even though multiple educated and experienced people tell you, you are not.

There are things you are not understanding here. Reloading is not pure and simple logic, almost nothing in life is as simple as pure logic.

I simply don’t care, because you’re wrong. I had a long response typed out when I realized you’re not going to get it. There comes a point where if you argue with fools long enough, it’s hard to differentiate between the two.

Ignorance can be excused. Willful ignorance is something else.

That's fine don't care. It is a shame your ego will not allow you to admit your wrong and learn.

Not going to understand it?

That's comical.

I laid out a list, and made it easy for you. You have failed to answer any of the list. And I know why, most of your answers will be "no". And even if they were all "yes" that is still no guarantee to produce .1 MOA, they are only ways to help get there.

I have watched Judd shoot real life match winning bench rest rifles. They are straight contours, same size at the action as they are at the muzzle. Bolt action, non-repeater, and not always do they hold .1 MOA.

But you can do it with an AR-15?

Exactly!

The more you know, the more you realize you actually KNOW damned little.

LOL!! Getcha some!

If you have a rifle which is CAPABLE of shooting in the ones.

THEN, it's all about the SHOOTER, NOT the rifle

go back to the 7 basics of shooting.

The true BENCHREST shooters like Judd are the ones who go banannas when a shot strays from the group. Most of these rifles are barely even touched during firing.

After reading what I just wrote, when you talk benchrest, then, I think it does come down to EVERY step of case prep, which most "hunters" never do. One kernel of powder, one case neck not quite concentric, seated a bit crooked, a "puff" of wind will kill a benchrester or the precision longrange benchrest shooter who shoot for group not simply a "hit" on a steel plate

It's certainly capable of it. I've done it a few times.

My answers to your list are that they're irrelevant. Calling a rifle that shoots .1 moa not a .1 moa capable rifle doesn't make any sense.

The only thing I don't understand are why you and Chad are so mad at me. I've never been defensive about your success. Where I would ask a question, you attack. Like I told him, this is a hobby to me. I don't really care if you're better than me, or worse. I'd much rather swap ideas and information. That was the point of the thread before it got raided. He wanted a picture of this group, and I provided it. Apparently, it wasn't good enough for him even though I did exactly what he wanted.

As far as your asking about an AR-15 doing as good as a bolt action; my opinion is that I really don't see a difference. I have several AR's that group below 1/2 moa all the time. I see the same with bolt guns which leads me to believe with the technology today, there probably isn't much of a gap (if there is one). If you go somewhere like AR-15.com, and look at the moa all day challenge, you'll see a lot a very accurate semis. Did I spend a lot of money to assemble them; you bet. One advantage I see with bolt guns, is that you can mess with seating depth more.

I don't hate on bolt guns, but I also don't find them very interesting.

JG

You were really wanting me to come shoot the match this past weekend.

For one, I couldn't get the weekend off, but another reason is your motive would be different than mine. I'd want to go in order to test my skills and keep my ears open to learn something. You'd spend the whole time wanting to catch me in a "gotcha" moment. The other is that I really haven't shot much in the last year. This past weekend was the first time in over a year I've been to a range that had any distance. I'm a little irritated I had that one slight "flyer".

Are you worried about being caught in a gotcha moment? You should be.

Hey tenyearsgone, I've asked you the same question twice over on the "neck sizing only" thread and you haven't answered it. Can you take a look and tell me?

Ten,
First let me say I don't have a dog in this fight. After saying that, and I don't want to insult you. For a rifle to be a legitimate 0.1 MOA weapon it has to do it first time, every time. It may shoot some smaller groups, but the maximum deviation it is going to produce is 0.1 MOA. Whether it's 5 or 50 times, you could take it to the bank, that all shots would fall into the same 0.1 MOA, no exceptions.

A legitimate 0.1 MOA rifle is very, very rare. It is also very valuable. If in fact you have an AR that will put every single shot you fire out of it in the same one tenth minute of angle my hat is off to you. After you repeatedly demonstrate its precision, without exceptions, you can sell it for enough money to keep you in guns and reloading components the rest of your life. However if it won't do that, it is not a 0.1 MOA rifle.
For your sake and good fortune, I truly hope it is what you claim.

Making assumptions like that only further shows your lack of understanding. PM every single shooter that came out and ask what my demeanor is. It is be safe, have fun, glad yall came out. I see a thousand shooter mistakes during that match. and 99% of the time I do not say a thing, as far as tips to be a better shooter. I will correct a safety problem immediately. One guy shot so high he ruined a target for the day. A huge miss. I put another target in its' place and we carried on. It was nothing more than chit happens when hosting a match, and break-downs happen. He was more worried about it than me. I told him, don't sweat it, it happens. But I hope he figures out why his shot went so incredibly high. I do not belittle anyone, ever.

I do not believe you would keep your ears open and learn something. You are the opposite on this forum. But on my land and my range I don't have to tolerate it for one second, and I won't. So no, I do not want you to come out, ever. You do not accept input, at all. I'll keep letting the shooters come out that can get along with everyone.

this whole thread is stupid

LOL! What's up, Dave!! Long time no see!

hey buddy - figured i'd drop in and say hi but immediately found this trash heap. the only ar-15 capable of a consistent .1 grouping has a fleshlight attached to the buffer tube and it's shot from the hip.

You just did the same thing you accuse me of.....

We have a philosophy/logic difference and all of a sudden I'm a jerk who doesn't listen.

Need a soundtrack for this thread.

...it's like this and like that and like this and like that.....

ten,

if you really are building AR's that are capable of .1's, or even .25's, you should do it for a living.

Your rifles would be dominating the High Power competition.

Post up some examples of targets and your phone will be ringing off the hook with big money calling.

I don't build AR's, only assemble them for personal use (have to be clear for ATF regs). I wouldn't be any different than lots of people if I did though.

We can do this all day, and you guys will just more angry while I sit back and smile.

If you are for real, get a license and start selling them, not kidding.

Yeah the differnce is I live in reality, and am not crazy.

I would be doing something that thousands of people do already.

I'm not playing stupid, but I thought everyone knew how accurate a precision AR can be.

I want to know why you hate the notion of me having a couple very accurate rifles? Why do you care so much? I'm being serious. If it were me, I'd be asking for load data, barrel, etc.

Can someone just lock this thread and take it out of its misery?

Da dada dada da!

Why in the world would I not want anyone to have accurate rifles? My business is based on helping people get there. I am teaching a one on one loading class Saturday. I hope his rifle shoots extremely tight. I love it when guys come to the range with extremely precise shooting rifles. It makes everything after that easier.

You're like a train wreck happening, I can't look away as bad as I want to.

Failed to answer questions.

Failed to grasp the fact that you don't have an every day .1 rifle, in spite of hundreds of years of experience telling you so. I've invested thousands of dollars in rifles, optics, loading equipment, and have logged tens of thousands of rounds of practice, and I don't make a claim of a .1 rifle. Because I don't think I have one that will do it every single time. But you're doing it with an AR, and a low magnification scope. Everyone but you knows that's

I just wanna know what drugs you're on.

Ready to make an entrance, so back on up
('Cause you know about to rip it up)
Gimme the THF first, so I can bust like a bubble
Fireman and 10yrgone together, now you know you in trouble
Ain't nothin' but a MOA thang, baby!
Two loc'ed out shooters so we're crazy!

1,000's of people are building AR's that shoot .1's, or even .25's?

Wonder why the Camp Perry competitors aren't buying up a bunch of those rifles since they are everywhere?

Could you post a link to a few smiths that are building sub-.25 MOA AR's?

I'm not picky, a sub-.25 is good enough for me. I'll leave the .1-AR's for the benchrest guys to buy.

See, I want one too. Ten, you are sitting on a gold mine if you can deliver a what you claim.

I’ll sponsor a match at my house. You two can slap fight with POM POM’’S for 30 seconds and then get on the trigger. 5 rounds 100 to 500 yards, with POM POM slap in between. The first one to start crying from a POM POM slap or shoots less than MOA loses.

Not a bad freestyle Chadwick

I just have to sit back and

a duel I love it scalebuster

I just wanna see an exhibition. Since we've been taught that a rifle that has ever shot a quarter-inch group is a 1/4-MOA rifle, period, and since we've been taught that a rifle that shoots MOA at 100 will necessarily shoot MOA at 500, I want to see the 500 yard 1/2" group that proves it all. Shot with an AR15, no less.

Tell you what, tenyears...I told about the rifle I have that once shot 0.18" for three shots at 100---I'll bring it along and if you can make it shoot like that two out of five groups I will give it to you.

Something tells me I ain't gonna see my old .280 ever shoot 0.18" again, or an AR15 shoot a half-inch at 500 until hell freezes over.

Goober

Where's the fun in that? Personally, I want to see how far this guy can dig that hole. Shouldn't interrupt a man while he's working and this guys going to hit water, oil, gold, or the other side of the planet eventually.

Just respond to the question if you have a helpful insight. I don't care what your opinion is of me, or my results. Don't we have rules addressing that anyways?

I'm not interested in hitting anyone. But I hate theives and liars.