1000 yard 308 question (actually 950 yards)

Shot some 168 Amax at 950 this weekend with mixed results. Load was Federal brass, CCI large rifle primers and 45 grains of Win 748. This load produced groups between .400 and .650 at 100 yards. Conditions while we shot we're lite to moderate winds blowing left to right with temps in the 40s. We had solid rest/support under the front and rear of the rifle. Rifle is a Remington 700 varmint, with Timney trigger and B&C Varmint/Tactical stock wearing a Vortex Viper PST 4-16x50. Target was 12x20".

Can the 168 be stable and consistent at 950-1000? If so, should I try to push the round faster to produce a more consistent performance at this range? If the 168 is a dog at these ranges, what if any bullet will work well in a 1:12 twist? I did have one keyhole strike on the plate, but the rest appeared to stay super sonic. I appreciate and feedback you guys can provide.

What does mix results mean?

What velocity was the bullet?

Velocity was 2600. Mixed results would be defined as hitting the target 15% of the time and a number of very close misses. Maybe I should buy a bigger target.

168 gr A-Max, .30 cal, out of a .308 Win just doesn't have the BC to get to 1k. At least not in most of Texas. It has a G-1 of .475. Seen many a 168 SMK lose trace at 900+, while the 175 SMK kept going.

Two choices:

1. Try a 178 gr ELD-M, G-1 .547 (I think your twist will stabilize it, never tried it in that twist rate)

2. Try a 155 gr Sierra TMK, BC .519. You will stabilize it, and you will make some real MV with it. I'd lay a hundred that it works in your barrel. You increased BC as well as MV.

MV gets you off the starting line, BC gets you to the finish line.

Did you find the stated BC accurate in your testing? It has a fantastic BC for 155s.

It's been correct out to 800 yards. They sprinkled pixie dust on that light of a .30 cal bullet to get that BC.

It's been hell on coyotes and hogs, too.

is your ammo hand loads or factory?

what is the velocity variation on your ammo? ES or STD?

As FJ said you are pushing the limits of the bullet at that distance so small variation in velocity can cause you to go transonic at different points

They're hand loads with no more than .1 or .2 grains variation. Since Win 748 meters exceptionally well I used my RCBS Uni Flow Powder measure and weighed every fifth round.

1000 yard .308 Win needs all the help it can get. Good brass, good brass prep, good primers, BC, and weighing EVERY charge that goes in every piece of brass.

I don't know the temp stability of that powder. Hand me that rifle and brass, and I will load it with H-Varget. It doesn't meter well, but it shoots very consistent when weighing every charge.

If you're going unstable before 950, you need to do something different. I was trying to push a 75 grain 223 bullet as far as I could. Printed a 3" group at 500 yards and couldn't touch a 2 MOA plate at 700. Figure out how to get more MV or BC or preferably, both.

Good point. I'm going to try the 155s with Varget now that I finally found some.

I'd start at 45.0 gr and go up from there. I wouldn't be afraid of 47.0+ gr. Ease up in .3 gr increments, as usual.

1000 yard .308 Win needs all the help it can get. Good brass, good brass prep, good primers, BC, and weighing EVERY charge that goes in every piece of brass.


Jason Hits it RIGHT HERE. I'll get yelled at but in my opinion, .308 is not your Huckleberry at 1000. This is ALLOT further than most think cuz we throw it around here like its 100 yards. 12 twist is tough, the "Palma" guys do it with a hot 155gr with a 30" barrel. If you had 1-10, the 190 VLD might get you there

Will your rifle shoot .5 group at 100yards? this helps too.

I used to shoot 308, 1:12" and other at 1,000 a fair bit.

From personal experience in a 1:12" -

175 Sierra Match King’s will make it reliably and are good quality.

185 Berger Juggernauts are a good choice, but can be hard to find.

155 Palma bullets by Sierra or Berger are good, but did not provide as good of results on paper as the 175 or 185’s.

Seat 0.010" off of contact with the lands.

The bearing surface lengths on Hornady Amaxes varied too much, up to 0.007”, to match the consistency of Sierra or Berger. Have not tried the ELD’s, so they may be more consistent now.

Varget with F210M's is the ticket.

Black Hills brass is what I mostly used, Lapua obviously is excellent.

Trimming and chamfering has to be perfect and consistent. A Giraud is worth the money.

The Wilson trimmer provides excellent results at a lower price, although is much slower.

Do initial load workups at 200 or 300 yards, 100 yards is wasting time other than setting a zero.

Check the load at 500 or 600 yards. It needs to be a solid sub-MOA load, not including the wind. Practice at 500 to learn how to correct for wind, which is the major factor at 1,000, is helpful.

Weigh every round, it matters. The charge can be thrown on a Chargemaster or from the mechanical thrower, but finish it on a beam or very good quality electronic scale.

Runout needs to be 0.003" for best results, less is even better.

Polish the inside of the necks with a copper cleaning brush chucked in a drill held in a vise.

Primer pockets need to be cut with a Sinclair uniformer.

Deburr the inside of the primer hole.

Seat primers with a good hand tool, such as the Sinclair.

The sizing die needs to be set up to set the shoulder back 0.0015" - 0.002" max.

Sorting brass by weight and neck turning never seemed to produce much difference, so I quit those steps.

As Buzz said, everything matters at 1,000.

I don't know, I have never shot 1000 yards so I'm just asking...

Jeff are you really saying you cant seat primers with a RCBS hand primer that will reach 1000 yards effectively?

No, not saying that. The load will reach a 1,000 just fine regardless of primer seating tool used, but increasing consistency in the ammo quality yields tangible benefits if the goal really is to shoot at a 1,000 and reliably hit the point of aim. I sometimes use a Dillon 550 and it works fine, but the Sinclair or similar really improves the feel in seating the primer. The small details add up to real differences in reducing flyers and improving consistency.

Try some of Chad’s ammo as a control. Black Hills factory ammo can produce decent results for just occasionally giving it a go. Brian Litz’ ABM definitely can.

Despite manufacturers’ marketing statements, more is involved than just turning a knob.

You have 2 main problems with the 168 in a 308 at 1K yards.

1- Yes, the launch speed of 2600 fps is pretty slow for a lower BC bullet at that distance. My data shows you are entering transonic at 760 yards, and subsonic at 940 yards, under normal conditions. The transonic range is where things get squirrelly. You need several things to help you- higher speed, higher BC, and more weight (or a combination of these items)

2- The 168 A-max has the same boat tail angle of 13 degrees as the 168 Sierra Match King does. Both bullets are known for running out of gas once you reach the transonic to subsonic range, and begin to tumble. A 13 degree boat tail angle causes uneven turbulence behind the bullet and causes it to begin to yaw. The minute this happens, you lose control of the bullet.

Launching a heavier bullet slower with a higher BC will perform much better at 1000 yards for you. A 190 SMK would work well, even in a 1:12" twist. So, anything with a higher BC, heavier, pushed faster will help you. If you go 155 grain, you will want to push them as fast as possible. The 155's will certainly get to 1000, but the heavier bullets will outperform them in drop and wind drift.

LOL! Nope! 45 grains of 748 is a medium load at 2600 fps, so there's certainly more room to get a hotter load with this slower burning powder for a 308. You should be able to get 2700 with that combo with a 22"+ barrel, no problem, with about 46-47 grains. And with a 26" barrel, you should easily be running North of 2700.

But for 1K yards, I'd switch bullets to something heavier with a higher BC, and your results would greatly improve.

I run a 22 inch 308 with 168 gr SMK and 44.5gr Varget and get a MV of 2710. 900 groups good at 1000 groups become random. Like others have said if you want to go to 1k you have to change the bullet.

Not picking at you Jeff.

I've learned carbon inside the case neck does help. And I hate, HATE I SAY, virgin brass. I love me some once fired, shoulder bumped .002", and trimmed though.

I don't uniform primer pockets, but I do debur flash holes on the brands that are not Lapua, and Nosler.

RCBS hand priming tool has been working great for tens of thousands of rounds.

No offense taken at all. Discussing things with others with experience and results is always interesting to me, and hopefully produces ever better results too.

Uniforming the primer pockets helps reduces flyers with the older Black Hills brass, which was made by Winchester/Olin at the time. Their new brass is made by RUAG, which seems to be comparable to Lapua in quality. I do not cut the primer pockets on the Lapua brass.

Interesting you have best results with virgin brass. What brand do you use?

The RCBS hand tool will work fine. I used the seater on a single stage press for many years and it did fine. Used a RCBS hand tool for awhile, but quit after seeing a report of the primers in the tray detonating for some reason. Hard to figure out how that happened, but I'd just as soon avoid that. As mentioned, I still use the Dillon 550 primer seater sometimes, especially when there is a big backlog, but it cannot match the Sinclair for consistency.

Carbon in the neck - can be done with or without polishing the inside of the neck. Just as an experiment, try ten polished and ten not polished. Just asking as a controlled experiment, not a challenge. I am genuinely interested in seeing if there is a difference when you try it. Just a question of curiosity, nothing more.

If nothing else, the OP has to change bullets at a minimum.

Good talk.

You understood the opposite of what I said.

I like once fired brass way better, than virgin. It tends to shoot more consistent, since it is -.002" headspaced to my chamber, and it tends to make more velocity, on the exact same powder charge as the virgin brass was loaded with.

Yes, OP needs a new bullet for .308 at 1k.

Lots of good info on this thread. Sorry to hijack, but there was some discussion I'm interested to hear Jeff & JG's thoughts on.

Regarding virgin vs once-fired brass, I just started load workup for my Tikka 6.5 CM and I'm getting much better groups (under .5") on my virgin brass and I'm struggling to get 1" with my once-fired. I used a standard full length die for the first round and a bushing die the 2nd time around. Both times I bumped the shoulder .001"-.002" and the loads that worked with my virgin brass produced pretty poor results with once-fired, and it didn't seem to matter whether I used the regular die or bushing die.

Oddly enough, the shoulder location on the factory ammo before firing versus after firing didn't move at all, which I assume means I have a really tight chamber. So when I'm resizing and bumping the shoulder back, I'm actually creating more headspace than I had with the factory ammo (the factory ammo also shot very well).

So I know this is blasphemy, but I'm now considering neck sizing only at least for one set of firings on the brass just because nothing else is producing decent results on the fired brass. But I'm open to other suggestions.

Phew! Now the Earth is rotating again! lol.

Yep, my mistake reading on a phone.

Patriot,

reading and mulling it over, not ignoring you, unusual issue.

Tell you what I would do..

First, why use two dies? I use a FL bushing die all the time.

What I would do is, bump shoulders on your fired brass .002" trim, chamfer, debur (did you debur the flash hole?) And go below, and above your previous charge.

Also, have you shot virgin brass, and once fired on the same outing, and got these results? Or are the once fired bass all at once, many round count down the barrel?

I'm wondering if the barrel needs cleaning, depending on your answer.

What speed does a 168 SMK need to be able to reach 1,000 yards without losing stabilization?

1110 fps, but due to the low BC, it is going to have to come out of the barrel faster than a .308 Win can make.

!

2800 fps is not enough for a 168 bullet? How far do you estimate it can do at that speed, roughly?

Just playing with some numbers, to stay supersonic you need about 2880 fps, and to stay above transonic (1340 fps), you need about 3200 fps, both at 1K yards. The region from transonic to subsonic is where most bullets get unstable. So, for 100% straight flight, anything faster than 3200 fps would do it. But, someone wouldn't be loading this 168 SMK for 1K yards. It's a very poor choice in bullet beyond 700-800 yards.

Current conditions (which are not good for pushing bullets to their limits) 168 gr. SMK, 2800 fps MV, drops down to 1340 fps @ 775 yards. Is at 1110 fps @ 925 yards.

Ok FM, thanks. Just curious, where do you get those calculations from? It's cool to fiddle with it.

I use 2 sites for data:

90% of my data comes from here: http://www.mega.nu:8080/traj_dat.html

The other 10% is direct from JBM for altitude info:

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmcard-5.1.cgi

"Shooter Ballistics" on my phone. Takes into account Density Altitude and temp, where ever I am, and gives corrections based on that.

jbmballistics.com on the P.C. You have to manually input environment, but it has been a solid calculator for years. And, once you have it dialed in,and calculator matches known DOPE, what it produced will tranfer to Excel, if you want to print a chart.

Thanks Chad and FM.

I used 2 dies because I tried the regular FL size die first and didn't like the fact that the base-to-shoulder dimension got longer when I just barely kissed the shoulder with the body part of the die. It lengthened 1-2 thousandths when I pulled the expander ball through, so to get it bumped back 1-2 thousands in the end, I actually have to bump the shoulder back 3-4 thousandths and then it ends up 1-2 thousands shorter after the expander ball comes through and pulls it some. After I tried that and got mediocre groups, I decided to buy a bushing die.

All groups were shot on a clean barrel. My Tikka has about 180 rounds through it by now.

I do have wildly varying lengths after sizing. I thought about trimming to see if getting consistent lengths would help.

I have not deburred any flash holes, nor do I know how to or know if I have the tool(s) to do so.

I did not shoot the virgin and once-fired in the same outing. They were separate outings. Cleaning in between. I don't normally clean that often, but I do when doing load development.

Sounds like more lubrication is needed, especially on the inside of the neck. Inadequate lube on the inside of the neck definitely can cause stretching. Could you try a quick test of adding more lube to the inside and outside of the neck and also the body, but not the shoulder and see if that makes a difference in the measurements?

What kind of lube are you using?

RCBS lube. Their lube video doesn’t show going inside the neck at all. I’ll try that tonight with measurements. Do you do anything afterward to get the leftover lube out before adding the powder/bullet?

Thanks for the help.

Yes, either wipe it off or tumble the lube off. I mainly tumble the lube off since I can do a lot at once and not take the time to wipe them all down evenly.

How bout remove the expander ball?

If its a little fouled, if you're not changing bullets, why are you cleaning, removing all the fouling from a button rifled barrel that needs it?

After 2 firings, trim.

Deburring the flash hole, is with flash hole deburring tool.

Honestly, I'm just doing this for grins and giggles vs. being a serious long range shooter. My buddies we're giggling like little girls when they heard the ping when they hit steel. None of them had ever shot past 100, so you can imagine how much fun they had. I'm going to load up the 155 Sierra TMK and try 1000 yards next time. I'll make sure to pay closer attention to brass prep, use Varget and weigh every load.

Hey, I thought shooting at a 1000 would be easy based on the fact YouTubers make it look simple and they rarely miss .

bigjoe - do you have a place in the area where you're shooting at 950-1000 yards?

I started cleaning it since I shot my first set with virgin brass on a clean barrel and got tiny groups with 41.5, 42.0, and 42.4 grains. Then I shot on a dirty barrel with 41.5 and 42.0 grains after using the standard die (with expander ball) and got ~1" groups. Then I shot on a clean barrel with 41.5 and 42.0 grains after using the bushing die (no expander ball) and got 1"-1.3" groups. Are you suggesting I remove the expander ball from the standard die or did you think I was using the expander with the bushing die?

I just now sized some using the standard die and lube in the case neck and it was much smoother. My case lengths at the end were much more consistent and I got it set to get just a hair under .001" of shoulder bump. I think that has a chance at shooting pretty good. The brass just seems more consistent with that lube in the neck.

I was surprised I didn't get better results with the bushing die. But I also didn't do a full workup tweaking length or doing a big run of different charges or anything like that. I figured if it shot that good with virgin brass, the fired brass would be easy.

Damn, stop cleaning the barrel! I've seen some that need 5 and some that need 25 rounds to start shooting consistent.

You've got too many variables. Foul it, and leave it!

Use one FL die.

Remove that case lube from the inside of the neck. I don't mean to step on toes,but I would never recommend that. Had a real bad experience with lube left on bullets. ES, and therefore, POI went crazy. And I was trying to shoot 300 to 1200 yards in a match.

Remove the expander from the bushing die.

Again, too many variables. Pick a case prep process, stick to it, tweak powder charge. If you're still not satisfied, tweak seating depth.

JG,

What do you use for sizing lube?

Do you tumble the brass after sizing?

The barrel on this rifle has never needed dirt to shoot well. First group straight out of the box was .5" with factory ammo, and the best groups I've had since were all on a clean barrel. Not that it shoots bad on a dirty barrel, but I didn't know if it did when I was doing load development. Regardless, I'll leave it dirty from now on.

Regarding variables, I was trying to make the die the only variable. Since it shot great on virgin brass with 3 different loads, I didn't see the value in trying to tweak loads down to the tenth of a grain with nothing changing other than brass prep.

So with lengths being a pretty big variable on the bushing die also, would you go ahead and trim even though they've only been fired once? Then go to every 2nd firing after that?

"Unique" and a pad, or "One Shot". Depends on where I am in brass life as to what lube I use. I wipe every case off after sizing.

Yes

Thanks!

Like others have said, I've had very very good results with 168 AMAX bullets up to 900 yards, where I can get 5 inch groups or better, but after that they become less consistent. The new ELD bullets will stretch your distance a little farther, and are easy to work with.

Pick a different bullet, do your load development at 200 yards, and follow the excellent advice given about reloading consistency.

I also like the 168 A-max out to 800 yards. It does very well (when pushed out of my 28" 308), out to these distances.

I hope no one thinks I'm a 168 A-Max hater. It is very good at lots of things, it's just not a thousand yard .308 bullet.

FM, a fella who is a competition shooter criticized me for cleaning my barrels too much between range sessions. He said you harm your barrels more by cleaning than shooting them. Also takes more / less number of rounds to foul barrels to get them to shoot during load development. If shooting the same bullets, leave the barrel alone, and if shooting different bullets between load developments, then clean them and foul them before load development. Since then, I have seen that I spend less time during load developments because some of those load developments had nothing to do with my loads but has not been fouled enough to settle down. And to clean the barrels after about 200 rounds or so.

^^ Exactly. A lot of shooters look at you like (see image below), when you tell them you need to go to a heavier bullet with a higher BC, which slows their muzzle velocity down. I even had a guy not believe me when I told him this, and he wanted to go to a much lighter bullet launched even faster with a horrible BC, that was going to decrease his effective range.