Rifle Balance and Pointability

Why some rifles just seem to handle and shoulder better than others, and how the weight and position of a scope comes into play.

Absolute unwarranted mental masturbation.

You can’t buy proficiency.

Just pick up a gun and really learn to use it.

LMAO. That is my philosophy. I never understood people needing a “perfect fit”. I’m more of a generalist. I want to be able to pick up almost anything and use it proficiently.

Does the military care if a weapon doesnt fit you or balance properly?

Bird and duck hunters, as well as the ones who can get off the quickest shots with a rifle might choose to differ.

In so many things, you find those who are able to outperform others in something that requires physical and mental abilities. And it's only when you check further into the tools they use that you find they're somehow different than what you and others have in their hands. Others might only say they have an unforeseen edge that you don't.

None of the rifles that I own is any more balanced that my Winchester Model 94, a model that's a true legend when it comes to taking whitetails. I have to believe balance came into play when John Browning designed it almost 130 years ago.

That’s predominantly only with OU’s, because of the bottom Barrel. You are trying to eliminate “cant” through fitting.

End of the day it’s about repeatability, fitting doesn’t mean near as much with a scoped rifle because the sight picture tends to be your “fitting”, you tend to adjust the sight picture to your comfort. (Meaning you move the scope back and forth until you find you comfort and most repeatable position. When using someone else rifle you tend to adjust your self to sight picture. That’s the average. Competition shooters are a whole different breed,

Scope front to back for proper eye relief, cheek height appropriate for natural point of aim, and that's about it for the "fitment".

What is far more important is lots and lots of time behind the rifle.

Some of us can shoulder other people's rifles and shoot them better than they can. Lots more reps in the books.

I don’t know Bobo. While I agree with what you are saying while shooting off a rest. Offhand shooting at a high level seems to be a dying art. A seamless mount with a well fitting long gun and point ability are an integral part of doing that at a high level. A lot more is possible with that style of shooting than many are aware of. To get really good at it rifles set up to mount and point intuitively make it markedly easier than using rifled set up for how we shoot off rests.

Yes. That’s why the M4 has an adjustable buttstock and a 14” barrel. Handles better and fits better.

Unfortunately you have to put a lazer and a light on the front end that makes it very front heavy.

The new SIG rifle with the all-in-one Vortex optic is going to handle and balance a whole lot better. A lot of critics out there like to point out how heavy it is, they do not take all the crap you have to put on the fore end of the M4 into account. And the PEQ15 and tac light were absolutely essential because we do everything in the dark.

I guess I'm a decent enough rifle shot off the bench or really from any type of rest as long as the target isn't moving. Give me a moving target and I might as well be throwing rocks at it. Is it because my rifle lacks balance or doesn't fit or is it because I never practice shooting a rifle at a moving target? I think it's lack of practice.

And all you guys that shoot the running hogs at night, great job! I don't think I could do it.

Yes, this might be a good time call to call a time out and note the discussion as one that targets quick, free-hand shots where the shooter is trying to get off an accurate shot as quickly as possible. It reminds me of those men I knew as a kid who could knock down a deer as it crossed a logging road while being driven by hounds. However, I digress.

It would appear such quick shots can be broken down into three phases, each which could probably muster their own discussion. Could even be more, or each could be broken down more for all I know.

1. Shouldering the firearm

2. Aim point acquisition

3. Trigger pull

4. Follow through

With anything where time is of the essence, any time that can be shortened during Phase 1 is time that can added later in order to make a more accurate shot. Or to look at it another way, any time added in Phase 1 is likely to lengthen the entire timeline.

A lot of the old bolt action military rifles of yesteryear balanced beautifully, especially for how long they were. My M1895 Steyr Mannlicher feels light as a feather and very pointable despite being 50 inches long and weighing 8 pounds. The Kar98k is probably about perfect as far as balance and everything else.

I was first taught as a kid with a .22. I taught the same to my son when he was a kid. The last buck deer I watched him shoot was neck shot free hand at a little over 200 yards while chasing a doe in a clear cut in this manner. To do it well is a full body exercise.
1. The eyes pick up the target and lock on while the body moves with the target.
2. Through a lot of practice the mount is refined to the point that the rifle is mounted to where the eyes already are. The body and eyes stay with the target as the rifle is inserted. It happens quick and comes up moving and right on target. The trigger is already pre loaded and the shot is sent the instant the rifle comes on target. Adjustment is not needed to make the shot if done correctly.

This style of shooting appears to me to be a dying art. Many hunters today lack the skill to shoot well without a rest. Few are willing to put in the time and practice required to master that style of shooting these days. The days of youngsters growing up outside shooting cheap .22 ammo by themselves all summer are gone. Today most are inside with their noses in their phones all day and never develop the ability to take advantage of the full benefit of a perfectly fit rifle that points intuitively.

He brought Bird/duck hunters into a rifle thread, and didn’t understand his own analogy. You can’t compare the way for fitting OU shotgun to a rifle. Reasoning is different.

I completely disagree with you, shooting at a high level is at an all time high, with standards of accuracy being exceeded daily. Practice practice practice. We can break down the design of biathlon rifles and then debate why those designs are not carried over to the general shooting world if you want. As I shot biathlon for a brief period in Colorado

Point I’m making is the OP is discussing a topic that he has no actual impactful knowledge in, especially since in previous statements He condemned any kind of rest, tripod, bipod etc


A free hand shot over 200 yards in MY world is reckless(again only in my world) , it’s not because it’s not doable(although you are purposely choosing to introduce a very high margin of error, regardless of the shooter) its because IF YOU HAVE to take that shot at that distance you are solely focused on a target in a fleeting moment and forget what’s behind it etc, you are whining it. That’s my opinion, I personally would not be happy if my kid took a freehand shot at a rutting buck at that distance. Anyone else I have no judgment for.

If we follow the OP’s advice I’d be building a rifle for a one off scenario of jump shooting mule deer, elk, pronghorn, or I guess ducks with a rifle as he interjected … we would be weighting barrels and stocks, twisting stocks, changing combos etc, while not ACTIVELY seeking any kind of accuracy improvement opportunity to make a more accurate and humane shot

Some can go around practicing biathlon type scenarios, but I will teach the process of eliminating margin of error as much as possible instead of inducing.

If you have hunted with hungry dog hunters much, you have seen it done Dan. The old dog hunters I grew up around that lived through the depression referred to it as “the starvation aim”.

Well, IMHO RIFLE should balance good, just cuz it should. Many don't such as a PRS/Bench rifle style but they are not shot off=hand very often, thank God.

European running boar guys ALL shoot guns balanced for running shots

Being a Rifleman isn’t a dead art.

I’ve got some strides to make but I’m back to working on it. There are probably more capable riflemen out there right now with unbalanced rigs than there have ever been in history.
20 years of war and society pretty much as a whole not having to worry about where the next meal is coming from allows it more now than ever before.

At night at, under 20yds with a 3.5x base magnification optic
With a 2.5# box optic, a light, a 1# can, laser, & a brass catcher

I did have the trigger break over twice when it was less than optimal but 6 from this group still ended up in the pile. (Opening shot and the last one running on the right were hit low in the neck, missing the spine, and expired within a few yards)

A running head shot, running spine flip and a deliberate lined up attempt to double on the coup de gras should make a pretty strong case for it being a lot more “Indian vs the arrow” though.

I agree but vast majority of factory rifles with sporter profile barrels balance well with 3-9 range medium weight scope. Most don’t set up their rifle that way. They place a giant scope on it , run a suppressor or buy a rifle with a heavy profile barrel.

Sorry, Dz, but ‘spray and pray’ isn’t really an example of more Indian than arrow. Kudos on the going away shot though.

I’ll use a rifle rest of any sort rather than shoot offhand. I do know my limitations on that. I will say that I don’t need much of a rest.

As for rifle pointability and accuracy, stick to one rifle and shoot it a lot. Practice makes perfect.

I used to be a one-gun guy, having a Sako 270, and I was confident in what I could do with it. These days, having an assortment of rifles, I don’t think I’m as good as I once was when I was a one-gun hunter with that 270. Could be that age is the problem though.

Well.... we in the shooting community are very good Americans and we just love to see how much stuff we can tack on to a rifle. Yeah, I am looking into the mirror also as I used to do it. It actually works pretty well when the gun only has to go from the truck to the shooting bench or the 10 minute walk to the blind. But if the rifle is to be a constant companion in the real world then balance, potability, weight, recoil, stock design and many other smaller things contribute to better shooting. I'll call better shooting about the same thing as comfortable shooting where the head, neck, shoulders and arms flow into the rifle and vice versa.

But I think it's a bit like buying shoes. What is like walking on clouds for one guy only gives blisters to the next guy. With training and practice we can make do with less than ideal fits. And with training and practice the perfect fit is not as important but it still makes a difference as skill levels go up (per the shotgun examples). I have shot many rifles well in my life. But nothing is as easy to shoot well or as comfortable as my Ruger Scout rifle with the Burris 2x7 ( heavy for what it is) forward mounted scope. The cheek weld is perfect though I am not suggesting anyone go buy a scout scope. It is inferior in many ways but that cheek weld is magic. My old Marlin 336 with iron sights was very similar.

Life is too short to have ill fitting rifles.

Did you have to bring in AGE ? My shooting has been going downhill as I approach 70.

Ya know, BigSam, I do think my shooting skills have declined over time. I shoot more now than I used to, so it can’t be lack of practice. Probably not age. More likely is Climate Change. That’s my story…

Worth mention perhaps is that when shooting, I have good days and less good days for accuracy. Some days I just don’t shoot as well. It isn’t too much coffee.

Uhm, just no. The job of fitting is to get point of impact and point of aim to match. This involves many factors and many guns aside from just o/u’s and dealing with “cant”.

It’s evident that I’m probably the only one here to have picked up a fitted rifle with only a front bead and point it at a 10x10” target at 200yds and hit it offhand. That’s the beauty of pointability and shoot ability, something drastically overlooked in todays rifle trends mostly concerned with accuracy. Not that that’s bad, we are really discussing two different tools.

Well, I did hit 9 of 10 bullseyes shooting for score offhand at Edson Range in Marine Basic. The rifle was a Winchester made M14.

You didn’t read my post well. This was done with a rifle with only a front bead, no rear sight to help line things up. It’s an example of what proper fit can account for.

Anyone willing to address the issue of rifle balance once you add a can to the end of the barrel?

What’s to address?, the balance changes, period.

You build and redo rifles for a living, specializing in higher end doubles Etc.

My wife semi/beretta is custom fitted including lengthen LOP, stock twisted and shined etc. why I said predominantly. My CG OU is custom fitted.

You are the only one here that’s going to grab an old world rifle and do that, infact you are one of the few that might actually own one. That was my point about modern scoped rifles. It’s two different tools. If I was building or buying a custom doubles open sighted for Africa I would get it fitted.

But none of the scoped rifles I had built in last few years are custom fitted or balanced in any form. There is no need.
They range from 6.5 lbs to 10lbs and all built for different things.

Custom fitting modern scope rifle is waste of money

Very good point. 200 yard shooting with just a front sight is very impressive. Certainly beyond my skill level with any rifle I own.

That Tikka in 260 that Chad had put together for me has a #4 contour barrel, which adds a bit of weight to the ‘front end’. I find that it really helps with holding the rifle steady and shooting well. That said, I’m still limited to under 100 yards for offhand shooting, which I avoid if possible.

I can close my eyes and still see the magnificent whitetail buck I encountered back in the 90’s. I came around the corner of a patch of woods, and there he was, standing still and looking the other way. I brought the 270 up and tried to hold it steady. Distance was maybe a bit over 100 yards. I had the crosshairs on him when he turned his head and saw me. I could see his muscles tense as I squeezed the trigger, and the crosshairs were high, and I took a chunk out of his back, above the spine. All these years, and I want a do-over. That shot sticks in my mind.

Thank you TDK. The old saying “you just don’t know what you don’t know” applies to this discussion.

Possibly, depends on how a guy values things I guess. Is there benefit, I believe so?

Also, all our late military sniper rifles are in a chassis that is highly modular and adjustable. And before that, they taught you to use a SAME splint to fit your comb/customize your stock weld.

It is most certainly not a waste of money to have a rifle fitted.

Goes to show if enough gun writers lacking inspiration repeat the same quote enough it’ll soon be construed as absolute truth. Suddenly you’re consumed by bland uniformity and monotonous utterances.

To you it may be Bobo. Keep in mind though, you are the same fellow that was talking smack about my sons offhand prowess using a fitted rifle to do something you can not do with the gear you use so there is that. Also keep in mind that parallax is only an issue with a scoped rifle if your mount does not put and keep your pupil dead center in the ocular, so there is that too.

Re-read what I wrote, I copied and pasted it below. Your paraphrasing is far from what I wrote. , I said Only in MY world and mine only, as I view it as reckless and dangerous, and I didn’t say I couldn’t make the shot, I’ve made further way further

You raise your kids any way you want, mine i will not be pleased at them taking an off hand shot at a rutting buck at that distance. I’d be highly disappointed that they would put ego over safety.

Again you are missing a lot of what I’m saying. You are relating how to mount and shot a rifle to custom fitting and balance. I have truley fitted custom shot guns, by those that honed their craft well before TDK. I know why I had them fitted, that carry over to my rifles world is pointless. I’m betting that the Op has no actual fitted guns.

I’m sure an offhand shot at 200 is reckless to you Bobo. Although I’ve noticed you know everything. When I was 12 years old I could shoot rifle or shotgun much better than I can now and I’m 47. I shot every day and killed several hundred jackrabbits a week when a brick cost $8. Shooting quail was something we did every day of season with a shotgun. Dove limits were at least 3 days a week during season in west Tx. My youngest shoots every day and I’d put him up against anyone offhand. I’m glad you know your limits. Pointing and shooting a rifle offhand is natural to some. I don’t believe in wasting ammo at the range for anything but developing a load. Quit downplaying Smokey. I’d bet whatever you want to put up he or his son could outshoot you with any weapon you wanted to pick.

Meh…

I received a PM from a non participating member stating "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Wisdom I continually look past.

Then don’t, its not a knock on you. As your work, restorations, stocks, and tooling has alway been beautiful. That’s not the question at hand. I would never spend the money to get one of my rifle fitted like I have for my wife and I on shotguns. There is simply no need. If free hand shooting a moving buck at 200 yards is the epitome of marksmen ship… then I’m not the only pig.

Re-read what I wrote, I copied and pasted it below. Your paraphrasing is far from what I wrote. , I said Only in MY world and mine only, as I view it as reckless and dangerous, and I didn’t say I couldn’t make the shot, I’ve made further way further

You raise your kids any way you want, mine i will not be pleased at them taking an off hand shot at a rutting buck at that distance. I’d be highly disappointed that they would put ego over safety.

Again you are missing a lot of what I’m saying. You are relating how to mount and shot a rifle to custom fitting and balance. I have truley fitted custom shot guns, by those that honed their craft well before TDK. I know why I had them fitted, that carry over to my rifles world is pointless. I’m betting that the Op has no actual fitted guns.



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Yeah, or it might have been a well executed stalk using wind and terrain to get in front of the deer and in position for a safe shot within his capability as it came to us that worked out just like we planned it. Don’t apply your skill set or make silly assumptions about what skills I’ve taught my son to suit our circumstances or what I’ve passed down to him about getting around in the presence of an animal to get the shot you want.

everything comes back to shooting skill with BOTH eyes OPEN. IDK, but I think I could hit a man-sized target at 200 yards with a properly balanced rifle. Most double rifles at close range are always shot with both eyes open

Remember the old guy who Ray Sasser used to write about before every dove season, Leon Measures? He taught INSTINCT shooting, something we don't see much anymore.

Take your Daisy Red Rider out, throw up charcoal briquets and hit them. You'll quickly see if you know how to shoot without a solid bench or tripod rest. It's all about focusing on the TARGET.

Point and shoot

Yes an off hand shot for rutting moving deer with no support is reckless for me at 200 yard. I have no issue shooting deer at 250 plus with proper contact, but not free hand. I care nothing what you or he does, I have said that several times. I can pull my pack down and shoot off it in same time frame and get three points of contact, etc.

I too grew up in the panhandle.. on well over 40 sections I have also killed hundreds of not thousands of quail and pheasants from the truck, ground and horseback. I also had some of the best dogs hunting 300 plus days a year could make. You don’t think I shot bricks of 22’s. The GW took my 22 away at 9 because my cousins and I got caught with over 75 pheasants and not telling how many rabbits. So your point means nothing unless you want to reminiscence about funner more freeing times of you and I’d youth.

My skills are far better then my willingness to push the limits when I can simply take my time and find a better shooting position. I’ve killed lots of animals at distances that I shouldnt have by listening to my ego and not my common sense of just taking my time and get closer or going around. I’m also not comparing myself to anyone. What I killed and how much I hunt doesn’t matter.

I’m still waiting for some to show me how a custom fitted deer rifle is relevant? Do you have one?

Shooting Mechanics are not what I’m talking about. In fact I’m willing to bet the only one on this thread with a truley fitted rifle is TDK. Not shot gun, rifle. Not a custom rifle a truley custom fitted rifle.

This whole thread is about fitted and balanced rifles. There is just no need unless one’s wanting some serious open sight fun, which I already addressed early with stating scoped rifles

I hunt a lot spot and stalk, in fact 90% of how I hunt, I’m not questioning you or your sons skill, I simplely said in my world I would feel reckless, not because I could or couldn’t make it. It is because off hand at a moving targets has more minus then pluses in my book. That’s me I’ve killed pronghorn at ranges with a 22-250 that are down right stupid, what did I care as a kid, it was crop depredation tags I couldn’t eat them, in hindsight I was reckless.

Again this isn’t about whether I can or can’t, I can make first round hits at 800 + yards doesnt mean I should on a deer or elk. As a kid I’ve kill ton of pheasants in cut corn with snow on the ground, via Kentucky winding them with a 22. A foot to the left and two foot high, kills a lot of pheasants as you walk it in but not exactly something I should of been doing in hindsight, I was reckless

Again I didn’t question anyones skill only the relevance of a custom fitted, custom balanced rifle. Mechanics are mechanics that’s not the debate.

I own a sig cross that I got for my 9 year old. The modular comb allows for more option on rings and scope choice, Most people don’t need 3-4 in of LOP adjustment. Chassis is far from a custom fitted gun. It’s simply a modular gun with ton of options.

Most your truly fitted rifles are doubles rifles like TDK does, or real big caliber bolts rifles or biathlons rifles etc

Seldom do your every day rifles get fitted, more about mechanic and repetition then fitting.

I want to see some of these off hand running 200 yard neck shots. Not it happened once kind of thing but you could do it every time. Come on get a video camera put it on YouTube and get rich… my guess is goose egg it ain’t happening. I damn sure can’t nor could I when I was young and shot a lot either.

European hunters are known to be damn good shooters with those straight-pull rifles. And I bet if you checked one of those rifles, you would find balance improves the ability to get off multiple shots with both a straight-pull or conventional bolt-action.

It for sure is possible but you have to accept the fact you’ll miss sometimes, and you gotta have a fast action or a semi auto. Let’s not pretend like we don’t miss birds with a shotgun.

You could call it unethical but I would not. A lot of people might miss a deer standing perfectly still and with a rest just for deer fever and the shakes. Is that unethical?

I don’t think so. I wish I got that much excitement out of ANYTHING.

I don’t know why I bother sharing with you dipsticks.

I love it when people assume since they don’t have a certain skill set that it’s not possible that others do.

Hit the nail on the head, right there.

I nailed the very first rabbit i ever shot on the run with just a BB gun. Can usually hit a soda can in the air with a pellet gun. Maybe I should do a video lol.

Y’all are probably right I’ve seen some pretty incredible things done things I wouldn’t have believed if I had t seen it. The mental picture I was painting in my head as I read screamed bs. I’d still love to see it though…

It’s gotta be easier than hitting a coin in the air with a pistol from the hip. That is a trick shot I will probably never do but lots of guys do stuff like that. I can watch those videos all day on YouTube.

So I don’t put any doubt to killing deer on the run 200 yards. I bet some do it that way every year in the Midwest, doing deer drives.

I have done it on a coyote. Rifle was rested on my gate, and I was standing. .5 Mil elevation and about a full Mil lead in front of his nose. Ended up being a head shot, though I was trying for lungs. LR-308 with a Burris XTR II, 155 gr Sierra TMK.

I think it’s more the why then the can for most.

In this thread a custom fitted doubles or big caliber bolt rifle would make complete sense if you might have to bear down and shoot a charging hippo at 50 yards, but if that hippo wasn’t charging you would still want to try to use sticks to minimize potential for error.

I think part of it is in the advertising too. Shooting a running deer/hog is completely different than calling a neck shot on a running deer in my mind. Still I don’t suppose it’s not possible but damn sure ain’t every country boy out there doing it.

Been fortunate to have shot 12 or so Nilgai cows and one big, blue bull. From memory, only two were standing still. All were taken either free standing, on the ground or while resting on a bag of corn when sitting on a cooler in the back of a truck. Every Nilgai shot at was recovered. With that said, most were reaction shots with little thought processes at easily in excess of hundred yards and while the target was moving. Very few were hit exactly where I was aiming. Very few. Some did require follow up shots in order to dispatch.

I am not the best on paper, but have been fortunate with moving shots on hair - for whatever reason. I have personally been a witness to nationally and world recognized paper shooters who have real trouble while on fur in the field.

Btw, never thought about balancing the Tikka or the Kimber. Tikka now gone and the replacement ain't likely to be done anything special with save for practice with it.

Buzz, I know Leon. The last time I saw him was about 15 years ago when my son was 8. He lived over by the rodeo grounds in Livingston. He got a kick out of throwing BB’s in the air for my son to pluck out of the sky with a BB gun. Nice Guy.

I've seen some remarkable things accidentally happen but if a person takes an offhand shot at a running deer aiming for the neck at 200 yards and hits it.....then he is a better shot than I am or have seen


I would question two things:

A. It was an intentional neck shot. I can see a shoulder/lung shot that ended up in the neck being the more likely scenario

B. It was actually 200 yards or greater



Go take a rifle with a 3x9 hunting scope, find a 200 yard target and try and hold on it free hand.......you'll see what Im talking about

A. Intentional neck shot. Buck deer coming straight on. No lead required. About to drop into a brushy ravine so could not let it keep coming.

B. Yes an honest 200 yards. As a forester I frequently walk distances while cruising timber. Unlike many who are flummoxed by estimating linear distance it is something I do as part of my profession. Scope was not a 3x9. It was a 1-4 on a Remington model 7 in 7-08. To pin it down a little closer about 1/2”-3/4” at 50 yards is the kind of accuracy. He has picked many a sand plum bush clean at 50 yards shooting freehand.

I stated it earlier. Offhand shooting seems to be a dying art. The overwhelming majority of today’s shooters think they need a big heavy rifle with a modern scope with a lot of magnification. That is not always the best tool.

Amazing what you can learn with a daisy pump BB gun.

so he shot a deer running towards him, in the neck, freehanded with a 4x scope at 200 yards?


Am i tracking you correctly?

I haven't tried it in years but i could pretty much go 10/10 on a hand tossed coke can with a red ryder in my teens.

BB guns are a great training tool.

This might help.....

Yes sir. Mature buck deer we had been looking for in the throat patch.

Yes sir. According to Leon FBI swat and US Marshals used to go through his schools before he got so old he quit doing it. With 10’s of thousands of repetition it gets rock solid once the muscle memory is learned and the small support muscles are trained, if you have the coordination and eyes.

Smokey, I don’t doubt anyones skill. Like I said it’s not the can it’s the why. If that’s what you want to define as why you should get a custom fitted rifle for your family so be it, As I said I want to know that was the last resort not the definition for my kids, and that’s example to them I have set forth going forward myself.

I’m sorry if my thoughts offended you, wasn’t mine intention, I was simply saying in my family I don’t want my kids doing something just because they can, something’s should be the last resort not the standard.

As far as your archery analogy, it’s perfect example, I would never use killing a mule deer at 105 yards as the standard for accuracy, even if I can put broadheads <10” at 100 yards and have shot spots at 50, field conditions don’t equal back yard. Just because I did/can doesnt mean I should, and I’m embarrassed to post that I have, especially since I flat missed at 50 on another Mulie because I got exited, which put me in a hurry and didn’t range, and guessed 10 yards off.

To each their own. I think Hud said it best on his niligi, he used a rest when he could and still got it done when he couldn’t, but the results weren’t always perfect.

He had a lever and dad took sights off. He would put blk dot on a card board box and we would [censored], point and shoot as fast as we could with both eyes open.

Or a Ruger 10/22

Only if the 10/22 is custom fit and has good pointability…

My daisy fit me when I was 6 up until much later.

If a rest had been available it would have been utilized. At 50 yards, probably not. It was a predominantly nocturnal deer we had hunted hard to get a look at. When we glassed him we made a split second decision to see if we could get get down and get in front of him before he got to the draw. My son told me he needed to get to 200 yards and I agreed that was about the limit of what he needed but we have to go now. He knew what he needed. We were able to get there and he closed the deal. We didn’t shoot that deer to impress anybody. I didn’t teach him to shoot offhand to impress anybody. The example I set for my son is to be safe and operate within his limits.
Rather than throw dispersion at the guys that shoot animals further than know I can, I stick to my limits and let them worry about their limits.…. It is the same deal but a different facet of shooting plays where we usually hunt.

We are on the exact same page, the backstories just came at different times I hope you guys gets some rain relief soon. Timber stand pics look bad since looks like it got timber too not just under growth.

Yeah it was a hot fire. Where the head fire burned the timber is rat tailed. Where it flanked or backed may make it if it gets a rain. Overcast today but still no rain.