Why Isn’t There a Popular .325 Magnum??

I will start by saying I could be 100% wrong here, but I was talking with a buddy about calibers, and it occurred to me there’s a pretty large gap between the .300’s and the .338. I know Jarret wildcatted a .323, but nothing ever seemed to stick. The .325 wssm was a flop. Was there anything else?

Not that popular either but the 8mm Remington Magnum was a Hammer.

I think part of the reason those do not do as good, as calibers go up in size there are fewer wanting one.. Bullet manufactures do a fare job of filling the void between the .308 and .338 diameter with bullet selection with heavy high BC bullets in the 30 cals and lighter ones in the .338. once you get >.308 the popularity of cartridges goes down, some of that is recoil related and the hype about speed.

I've known a couple of people I hunted with that had those
325WSM chambered rifles, but they always said that ammo
and components were scarce from day one
Supposed to be a jackhammer

I had a 325 wsm, it was a absolutely beast .. shot well super accurate recoil was horrid.

Larger calibers tend to be fired less due to cost, recoil, and purpose. Nobody is hunting prairie dogs with a .338 Win Mag, and you usually only get to kill one elk or moose. Therefore there are fewer large cartridges since most are overkill for what they do. As posted, there just isn't a large demand for large calibers or their ammunition. The market is already flooded with large .30s, and there are several .338s that will do the job for bears, moose, etc. You can't really differentiate anything in that gap-what will it do that a .300 PRC, .300WM, .30-378 or any of the others already can't? Since nobody else is loading .325 ammo, you'll be the only one offering bullets/cases.

I honestly thought Winchester made a mistake not calling it the 8mm WSM.

IIRC the .325 WSM was loaded with 180 grain bullets. IMO for deer/elk sized game it wouldn’t offer up anything a .300 win wouldn’t.

As bullet technology has advanced, the need for bigger calibers has really shelved itself into two categories…the .375 and up type stuff for big African game and the .30 cal stuff and under for everything else. If I hunted big moose or trophy elk every year I might could justify a .338 or .340 wby purchase but I don’t do I’ll take either animal handily with my .300 win. Big bears, I would also argue a .338 would be ideal but one could use the .375 and be just fine.

Just not a lot of reasons these days to use a caliber between .30 and .375

I had an 8mm Remington Magnum, wish I never sold it but I was made an offer I could not refuse.
Probably one of the best elk cartridges made. Hogs really don’t like it.
Just don’t forget your ammo, you aren’t finding any in a store.

M

I have a .325 WSM that is great. I wish ammo was easier to find. It s great on the biggest of big game in North America, and also nice to have hunting smaller critters in big bear country. Factory loads were originally 180, 200,and 220 grains, I think. I can find bullets from 160 up to 220. For me, it has nearly the power of .338s, with better ballistics than most .30s.

You should all start shooting one so they offer more factory ammo

Look up the 8x68S.

Chambering's popularity will somewhat follow availability of components.

.224" and .308" bullets are the sizes there are the most options for bullets.

.338" there are more options for bullets than .325". So the .325 rifles get skipped over in sales.

Not too many .325 rifles, so bullet makers are not inclined to produce. It is a vicious cycle.

I have a 325 load 4451 and 160 ttsx only 100 fps slower than my 300 wby way less recoil absolutey hits just as hard it was a produt of drinking and internetting but worked out real well just kneck up 270 or 300wsm brass

I hunted with a few German and Hungarian folks and that was their round of choice. The have their Blaser’s chambered in them, they are pretty stout. They have a wild hog problem worse than we do.

Once I start thinking something bigger than a 30, I start to think I am looking for something slower as well. For the way I hunt a 35Whelen or 350Rem Mag is about as "big and fast" as I want. And I usually feel more at home with something even slower than that like a 356Winchester or 444Marlin.

Big and fast usually ends up beating the snot out of you.

I’ve never understood where the mentality came from that wild hogs require big guns to bring down.

I’ve killed a bunch with a .22LR. People that recommend big bore rounds for pigs always leaves me scratching my head

I agree with you there, when I was thinking about a moose hunt I ran across a Remington 700 Classic in 350 Remington Mag. Never did the Moose hunt but it has worked well on elk, mule and whitetail deer and hogs. 225gr Nosler Partition running 2700 at the muzzle has never let me down.

8x57 Mauser has a big following in both Europe and Africa and with modern ammo is very good. Rather than trying to reinvent the wheel just go with what has been working for over 100 years. Why Americans think only they know how to come up with effective rounds is beyond me. 375 H&H Mag, 300 H&H Mag, 6.5x55, 7x57, 8x57, 9.3x62 etc... are all European rounds and they have all stood the test of time.

It comes from the same place I got it from when I was younger.
Gun magazine articles. And these days, the internet

Efficiency and accuracy. Sure, we are duplicating performance of cartridges from years past, but some of them just do it better.

If you are "duplicating" then you are not improving ergo, they are not doing it better. Kind of like the 6.5 Creed. The 260 Rem, 6.5 Rem Mag, 6.5x57 and even the 6.5x55 Swede all top the Creed in velocity but people jumped on the Creed when in fact there was no real reason for it to exist. Same can be said for the 35 Whelen. No reason for that when the 9.3x62 Mauser has existed since 1906 and it a better round.

It comes down to marketing hype, not performance or need.

To get a .260 Rem to shoot the same bullet at the same speed as a 6.5 Creedmoor, you need a whole grain more of powder to do it. Thays somewhat significant when loads are tested .2 to .3 grain apart.

Remington could have invented a winner with the .260 Rem, but Reminton was their own worst enemy. They failed to support their cartridge with good ammo, and bullet choices. Hornady made a case geometry that is more fuel efficient, loaded a fairly heavy sleek bullet, then cranked out plenty of ammo for the cartridge. It has only been around since 2007. It is not just marketing, it is something that works. And everyone likes things that work. And everyone likes availability of ammunition. .260 brass can be had, ammo I do not know. 6.5x55, 6.5x57, and 6.5 Rem Mag are what I would call boutique cartridges these days. The 6.5 Creedmoor is killing them.

You may not realize it but you made my point. The 260 Rem (as well as the other rounds I mentioned) all did exactly what the Creed does. The Creed had no reason to exist. The platforms for that performance already existed. Whether the makers at the time understood that or not is a moot point. The Creed filled a niche that really didn't even exist. Look up the ballistics and the loading data for the rounds I mentioned and you'll see what I mean. All of them meet or exceed the velocities and performance of the Creed but they didn't have the marketing hype. A 140 gr bullet (give or take a few grains of weight) launched from a Creed is no more lethal or effective than the same weight bullet launched at the same velocity from any previously released 6.5mm cartridge. PERIOD. The only difference is marketing hype.

Here is an example of what I am talking about. Using data from the Hodgdon site for the Creed, 260 Rem and the Swede and a 140 gr bullet velocities of 2520-2700 fps is attainable for all with the same 140 gr Hornady bullet with only slight differences in powder weights. So tell me how is the Creed any more effective that the Swede or the 260 Rem? And remember the Swede has been since 1894 and the 260 Rem has been around as a factory round since 1997.

Remington did not offer a 140 gr bullet, with a G-1 BC over .550

To get the .260 Rem to make a 140 gr have a 2800 fps MV out of a 24" barrel, it has to be hand loaded. So does the 6.5 Creedmoor. Factory ammo is not going to make that speed in either cartridge. But, you're probably not going to find a history of Remington ever offering a 140 gr, with a very good BC. Hornady came straight out of the gates with it. And have added 143 gr and 147 gr in 6.5 Creedmoor.

I got into precision rifle matches before there was a PRS. There were lots of .260 Rems out there, and I shot one as well. Custom built rifle, on an Obermeyer barrel. It shot phenomenal, until I shot it out at 2500 rounds down it. I moved to 6.5 Creedmoor after that barrel, shot it out at 2500 rounds, and am on a second 6.5 Creedmoor. The .260 Rem can be a bit more fussy, to get it to tune. It takes more powder to get it up to speeds of the 6.5 Creedmoor. People that drop off rifles to me, I have had to hand load for .260 Rem more than 6.5 Creedmoor, because the 6.5 Creedmoor people can buy ammo for that they are happy with.

Hornady set out to make a cartridge a person could hunt with (over 100 years experience with Europeans using the old ones you mentioned) and a cartridge a person could effectively shoot long range for fun, and they didn't have time be a hand loader to do it. No one will hang in those matches running many factory .260 Rem offerings. But people can hang with many 6.5 Creedmoor offerings.

I said better fuel mileage. I will be getting a 6.5 Swede in some time this year. I am curious to see the velocities the best loads make. My bet is it is not making 2800 fps with less than 43.0 gr of powder.

6.5 SAUM was somewhat boutique as well. Hornady tweaked it into the 6.5 PRC. And offered ammo for it.

.300 Win Mag is a long proven cartridge. For hunting, military Snipers, and long range target shooters. Hornady recognized the success of the 30° shoulder, recognized a straighter case wall still feeds just fine and increases powder capacity, and recognized we do not need the belt. We now have the .300 PRC. It is a better mouse trap than the .300 Win Mag. Brass availability is not where it needs to be just yet.

I give as much credit to Remington for the Creedmoor as I do Hornady. The put out a cartridge that proves the potential but then [censored] the bed not supporting it. The Creedmoor was needed and as much as I hate it has been significant in boosting the sport of long range shooting. When you can buy a CTR and Hornady Black ammo from Academy, then go ring 1 moa steel at 500 with that set up the next day, you’ve accomplished something.

As I already stated, THAT IS A MOOT POINT. I am talking about the platform and not the individual rounds. Are you really so obtuse that you don't grasp that the Creed really has NOTHING over the 260 Rem if they are loaded with the same bullet? Look at the loading data. All someone needed to do was take the existing platform and offer a different load. But they didn't take that route because they saw an opportunity to sell a lot of new rifles and new ammo and that is why the marketing hype came around. Listen carefully: THE CREED FILLED A NICHE THAT DID NOT ACTUALLY EXIST!!!!!

They succeeded in separating a lot of people from their $$$ with a really slick advertising and marketing campaign. Either you see it or you are blind. I'm betting you're blind. I have a Rem 700 Classic in 6.5x55 Swede and there is NOT one thing the Creed will ever do better than the Swede and considering the Swede has a bigger case I can actually best any loading the Creed has. The Swede has been around since 1894 and has always been very popular in both Europe and Africa, places I doubt you have ever been.

And, as I previously noted, Americans (like you) tend to think only America can produce good rounds when in fact Europe has been doing it for years. The whole gist of this thread is a round in .325 (8mm) and Europe has been producing great 8mm chamberings for well over a century and the same can be said for 6.5mm chamberings. You fell for the Creed hype, I won't because I have the ability to think.

Another good thread lost to the creedmoor. This is why we don’t give a damn about, orjust hate, the 6.5 Creedmoor. Next thing you know “oh well the .260 Remington is just as good”. “No it’s not”. “Remington didn’t support it”. “Well the cartridge geometry”. Blah Blah Blah.

A guy could honestly just read this forum long enough and make an argument for or against it and really appear to know what he is talking about. Yet have no idea or experience with them because it always comes back to the creedmoor. Good grief

The creedmoor is totally different than a 260 the throat and freebore has been designed for optimal performance the 260 or any other 6.5 variant has too much of the bearing surface burried into the case body taking up room for powder.

I understand where your going, however the creedmoor is a standard that was set and supplied with copious amounts and quality bullets. Remington half azzed the 260 they really were lazy by necking down a 308 case whoa what a mind blow.. then had to keep the oal short so it worked in a sa.. same with the 6mm Remington.

While it may be slightly an improvement, by looking at load data the proof is seen and observed on the range and the matches where most all go the creedmoor route. Its proven and available. No hand loading required and Hornady is putting out ammo in some cases is very difficult to duplicate as a hand load.

X2….the Creedmoor guys will wear you out.

I have shot 6mm, and the 260 Remington since forever.. I no longer shoot them because the availability of quality brass. This isn’t so much Creedmoor fans as much as it is an industry that commercially supported the case.

But this is my opinion and I shoot quite a bit, enough to cook several barrels a year and what I look for personally is supportability in terms of can I get brass, bullets for it.

My 260 was fickle, and the brass was done in 3-4 loads. I’m running around load 14 on my Peterson brass.

Your all caps and bold is not necessary. Clearly you're upset. The typical teacher, too busy talking to shut up and listen to someone else. Or in this case, failure to read. Seen it my whole life with family members that were teachers. They ask a question someone just finished answering because they didn't listen.

It's not a moot point. The .260 with 120's and 130's cannot hunt or shoot as far as it could with a 140 gr. And Remington did not offer that.

Again, you failed reading comprehension. I burned out a .260 Rem barrel of my own, and have hand loaded for many others. I know what it can do better than you can most likely. I have data on both cartridges, with 5 different bullets and to distances of 1400 yards, in temperatures from 20°F to 110°F, and several different powders in each cartridge. I have made both cartridges send a 140 gr at 2800 fps. This is the second time I have had to write this. Also for the second time, factory ammo will not do that. But factory 6.5 Creedmoor will do more than factory .260 Rem. That is what you let go right over your head. Hornady supported their cartridge with the right ammo. The Creedmoor did fill a niche that did not exist. To be competitive at long range precision Rifle matches a person had to be a hand loader. If you were not, you pretty much had one option, the .308 Win. And the .308 Win against 6mm and 6.5mm, with equally skilled shooters, will not win. So Hornady created competitive ammo, available on the shelf. Used to be, you could shoot matches in Texas, Oklahoma and Louisiana and see the same 60 guys you know. Now, you'll be around a bunch of strangers. The sport has probably grown ten fold, or more, in the last ten years.

Stay happy with your 6.5 Swede. Nothing wrong with it. But, I also have had hundreds of people bring their rifles out to shoot with me for the day. There's no telling how many 6.5 Creedmoors have been out. I have not counted. But, exactly zero 6.5 Swedes, zero. So say it's useless, marketing hype, whatever makes you sleep better. But facts are learned on rifle ranges. And for a person to pay me to help them get data and learn how to get hits to 800 yards, and I do it. Have done it countless times with people shooting mass production 6.5 Creedmoor ammo. And they went back home ecstatic. Had they brought out 6.5 Swede or .260 Rem they would have got the same level of attention and help. But no one has brought out a 6.5 Swede.

Lots of good innovation comes from many countries. My dad was a manufacturing engineer for 37 years. He told me long ago, the best, and most innovations come from the U.S.A. China and Russia are good at stealing ideas, always have been. And I also know for a fact, Americans like 30 cals. That is something that inset in this country with the 1903 Springfield, followed by the Garand, followed by the M-14 and the 1952 invention of the .308 Winchester. I'll repeat myself again, since it alludes you, .325 did not catch on here. Of course it works, it just did not catch on. What the military uses has always caused a drive in retail sales, so the .338 Lapua Mag is still fairly popular. People that pay attention to innovation know the .338 Norma Mag does the job better. What's the parent country of that cartridge? That would be Norma of Sweden. The U.S people that do not care about country of origin, they care about performance and availability of components or ammo. And now the tables have turned. There are so many civilians loading, experimenting and shooting, the military is paying attention to what the civilians have learned and following suit.

325 Magnum? There's a 327 Federal Magnum, does that count?

Back to the original subject:

I always thought the 325 WSM was a pretty cool cartridge. But, it won’t fly too well out of my 30 cal can. At this point, I don’t have a real need for anything more than a .30, and I like to shoot with my silencer. That in itself is enough to steer me away from a 325 rifle.

I don’t care either way about anything Creedmoor but there is just too much logic in that post to ignore it. I appreciate it.

I remember when the .260 remington came out.....Remington and Outdoor Life's Jim Carmichael were touting it as .270 performance in a short action cartridge, which was then amended to NEAR .270 performance in a short action cartridge. IIRC very few rifles were chambered in the .260, as typical with Remington they failed to support their offerings with any substantial marketing and it fizzled.

I also remember when the 6.5 Creedmoor came out......it was originally designed as a target cartridge and if memory serves was loaded with a 120 grain bullet. Buddy of mine started using one in 08' or 09' long back before it was trendy.

As previously mentioned, Hornady really got behind it as they did with several other cartridge's at the time ( the .338 RCM, the .375 Ruger and the .308 Marlin were others ) but the Creedmoor's popularity blew them all out of the water. Its a testament to what marketing will do for a mass produced product.

I'm sure somebody has already mentioned it but the 8mm Mag is a damn good round. It can chunk heavy lead or fling some lighter loads. launch 200 grain Nosler Partition over 3,000 fps or 180's over 3300. Great caliber for deer and up.

I used to neck 8mm rem mag down to 30 cal make a 300 Jarrett out of them and your right 8mm rem mag was bad azz as it was, but when you go 30 cal it gets even more wicked!

Didn't read everything on this thread, sy this may have already been stated but here's my thoughts: I think by the time people step up over a 300 Magnum, the 325 is just not a big enough jump to make a difference so they go ahead and go to a 338. Kind of like when a 338's not big enough a 35 calibers probably not big enough either, so people just jump on up to 375. I honestly can't think of anything that I would shoot with a 325 that I would think a 300 was too small for, where I might shoot something with a 338 that I thought of 300 might be on the small side for. I'm not real sure what that would be either though LOL, I would probably go from a 300 to a 375 and skip the 338 as well

I think it may just come down to honest gun dealers. Every time I have seen somebody walk in to a gun store and try to buy a 300 win mag or heavier caliber rifle, the dudes behind the counter are like so you really want that much gun, and start talking about recoil and performance on game etc. I think them guys talk themselves out of a sale that way. And a lot of the new gun owners with a magnum gun flip it pretty quick, it’s not hard to find a good deal on a used magnum in decent shape. The 300 win mag gets supported because like it has been said, it’s a military cartridge with a ton of good bullets already fueled by the .308 and 30-06. And the 7 mag has little more recoil than the 30-06, I can’t hardly tell the difference anyway, it is a great cartridge and not over kill for anything deer sized and plenty for bigger animals.

It’s really hard to sell a new big game cartridge because there are already so many fantastic big game cartridges. Of course the creedmoor is a mild cartridge that works pretty good, dealers can recommend it to new shooters with a clear conscience vs a exotic new magnum round.

My 7 Rem Mag is too much gun on whitetail. I won't use it for that specific hunt. That's why the barrel has lasted so long. It shoots very tight, very far away. It's just too much gun on whitetail.

In my experience, long list of short action cartridges are all you need on whitetail.

And I agree, if you're going to cross the .308 bullet diameter line, you might as well go to .338"

.

6 of one and a half dozen of the other. There are a whole lot of good hunters out there that would disagree with you about the 7 mag. I don’t think it’s too much gun for anything except small game.

I like taking home all the viable meat I can.

Shoot ‘em in the eyeball.

After only having shot deer that I kept with a bow for a few years, I killed one with a 308 and kept it this year. I couldn't believe how much meat I lost. I had forgot just how much meat a rifle will tear up. Probably going back to a bow for the foreseeable future, just so I can keep from losing so much meat. Well, that and I like shooting them with a bow better

Or you could shoot a 50 BMG. Aim for a near miss, and if you get close to the head, the pressure from the passing bullet will suck the eyeballs out of the skull and kill it! You won't lose an ounce of meat this way!

Hate to burst your bubble, a 50 BMG won’t even ripple the water unless you hit it.

Does I brainstem, if they're close enough. Really doesn't matter what you hit em with doing that.

Put some distance and/or wind, and I'm going to lungs. My 7 Rem Mag with 180's, and my doe hunting pard with his 7 Rem Mag with 168's, we each swore off the 7 Rem Mags for the whitetail doe hunt. I run my 7mm-08 A.I. and he runs a 7mm-08 for the last few years.

That was me, making fun of Keith Warren. He's an idiot.

Good one!

Where are you shooting them? Through the lungs on a broadside shot damages almost no meat, regardless of the caliber.

With a rifle I usually shoot them in the heart. And the one I shot was quartering away so I got the offside shoulder too. It blood spoiled a lot of meat and tore up a lot of stuff. With a bow, I don't lose any meat. Well maybe like a quarter inch around the hole or something but not very dang much, plus I'd rather bow hunt anyway

One of the things I like about a big slow bullet from say a 44 Mag, 38-55 or 45-70, like an arrow you can eat right up to the entrance and exit hole.