Realistic accuracy expectation from guns

Below is what I think is a realistic accuracy expectation for various type of guns in low wind and the ammo the gun likes. Please feel free to correct me if you feel I’m off in my estimates.
Also If your bolt Savage 22LR can do 0.5” at 100Y all day long, good for you….but that’s not a realistic expectation for a cheap 22lr.



Factory sporter bolt 1” at 100Y
Factory heavy barrel bolt 0.75” at 100Y
Factory high end bolt 0.6” at 100Y
Custom bolt 0.4” at 100Y
AR15 M4 1.5” at 100Y
AR15 high end 1” at 100Y
AR15 heavy barrel 0.75” at 100Y
AR15 heavy barrel high end 0.5” at 100Y
22 LR bolt .75” at 50Y 1.5” at 100Y at 100Y
22 LR high end bolt 0.3” at 50Y 0.8” at 100Y at 100Y
22lr semi auto 1” at 50Y
22lr semi auto high end 0.5” at 50Y
Bench rest rifle …..I don’t know. What do you think?
Polymer pistol 3.5” at 25Y
Metal frame pistol 2.5” at 25Y
Revolver 2.5” at 25Y

Feel free to add anything I missed.

pretty dang spot on to me. Your benchrest boys will slit their wrists if they dont shoot in the 1's. all in pretty much the same hole.

I’m a bit of a snob, I won’t keep a rifle unless it’s 1/2 moa or better. Except for a couple “sentimental” rifles
Custom guns I expect 1/4 moa

I won’t keep a 22 unless it shoots under 1/2” at 50 realistically a smoking hot 22 will shoot between 1”-1.5” with a good driver and favorable wind out doors. I have never seen or witness anyone shoot a 22lr under 3/4” at 100 yards.


Your list is pretty spot on I’d say for off the shelf, little tinkering, minor mods shooting a premium loaded or hand load.

It's amazing that everyone on the internet is a fantastic sub MOA shooter.

If my revolvers shot 2 in groups at 25 yards I need to find out what is wrong.

Yes it is . As the rangemaster for all the different matches every weekend for 20 years at public range I never saw the kind of shooting that is done on the internet . People with factory ammo and rifles , with no competition type rests or wind flags can out shoot most of the benchrest shooters in the matches I was at , I am glad they never showed up for the matches as I would have been in trouble . The few times some of these type people did show up to shoot in a match [ no matter what type ] something always went wrong with their gun , just bad luck .

Seems like every time I try to shoot 0.5 MOA groups with more than 3 shots, Mercury is in retrograde, the wind is over 2 mph, or my karma is off. My 5 or 10 shot groups just don't stand a chance against the universe.

yep, there is an S-load of thrown out when it comes to this subject

This is a rabbit hole thread here but, let me clarify my statement.
I put the work into developing a load for each rifle I have and if I can’t get it under 1/2 moa I get rid of it or rebarrel it.

I will also maintain load data for about 2-3 different loads that shoot exceptionally well in case I can’t get or find the exact bullet powder or primer. This is what I do personally, if anyone thinks I’m blowing come on out to the range and y’all can video tape and post how bad I suck.

After all I did say I’m a snob when it comes to how the gun shoots.

I think you nailed it

.22 numbers are a little to good

I been playing with Vudoo’s and Begara B14r shooting center-x and lot tested sk makes good numbers.
The Begara Friday morning did this at 100 over at quail creek off a bipod now may be a unicorn because I have been playing around with a tuner, but I’m really close to locking it down and calling it good. I wanna shoot like 5-10 groups more before I say it’s a straight up 1” gun.. at 100 yards.

I sold my Vudoo, because the Begara was so close to it in group size I couldn’t justify having it in my head.
I have swapped out the trigger for a Jewell set at 3oz, it’s in a Bravo chassis, with a Harrel’s tuner. I have polished the barrel with isso every time I have shot it and it will now clean up with two patches of bore tech rimfire blend.
Shoots .3-.4 at 50 yards with center x it shoots .2-.3 at 50 yards.

Yep.

I’m pretty much in agreement with the OP’s expectations.

Funny how that works.

I have also been playing with the tuner. I have a couple groups just less than an inch indoor. I can’t do it all the time

FIFY

Most frustrating part of rimfire.

You guys are right, but so far it’s been hovering right around an inch at 100 so I am excited to see when it gets warmer if it will stay. So far the tuner is and has only needed one to three hash mark adjustments from day to day.
I have only shot 200 or so rounds so far with it.

Personally I think most modern factory bolt action rifles are capable of 1- 1.5l” MOA with good factory ammunition. If you reload, upgrade trigger and add a. aftermarket stock you could get it to shoot .5- 1 MOA. Now, if the shooter is capable of consistent sub MOA is a whole other story.

Any gun I have ever picked up will outshoot me and my needs.

How would you update the below numbers?

22 LR bolt .75” at 50Y 1.5” at 100Y
22 LR high end bolt 0.3” at 50Y 0.8” at 100Y at 100Y
22lr semi auto 1” at 50Y
22lr semi auto high end 0.5” at 50Y

I'm exactly like you.
I have no (limited) interest in guns shooting over 0.5 MOA nor in any 22lr not shooting below 0.5" at 50Y.

But I think you're a bit optimistic on 1/4MOA with custom guns. I'm talking about getting consistent accuracy. Not 1/4 moa here and there.


The reason I created this topic was also to remind myself what I need to expect when I buy a gun.
For instance, I bought a new new factory Remington VLS in 223. The gun is beautiful, functions perfectly but it doesn't shoot any better than 0.7" at 100Y even with reloads. Honestly I was a little disappointed but my expectation to get a 0.5 MOA factory gun was not realistic.
Another example....I'd really like to buy a new CZ 457, but I'll probably disappointed by it's accuracy as ultimately I'll end up comparing it to my Vudoo or Anschutz.

1/4 MOA is what I expect out of properly built custom centerfire rifles.

1/2 MOA is not uncommon out of "some" mass produced rifles.

Both on a hand load tuned to them of course. Mass production ammo is most likely not to achieve those stats.

I Fully expect 1/4 moa from a full custom. In fact I had a rifle built on a Tikka action that would consistently do it. Now, the current rifle that I’ve built myself is not near as consistent, I still need to bed it. Sometimes it shoots .2s and sometimes it shoots whatever it wants. I’ve also had factory rifles that are plagued with inaccuracy.

A little less on the custom bolt at 100 and a little better on the custom semi at 50

Pistols and revolvers should group a little tighter than your list, but I have heck getting rifles to group to those standards. It's not the rifles, it's the "me".

https://www.nbrsa.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/HV5-100.pdf

Some of ya’ll are hunting with guns that shoot better than bench rifles. Anytime someone says “this gun shoots .1-.2’s all day”...most of the time they are full of [censored]. There aren’t many guns that can agg a .2 consistently and even less in a hunting platform.

Sorry to burst some bubbles.

Lots of folks shoot one .5" group with 3-4 shots and then call their rifle a 1/2 moa gun...

I trust almost nobody online on this topic. Shoot a target in front of me and then we'll talk. I'd be floored to see a 22 shot outdoors at 100 yards under 1" consistently.

Agree, and this is why:


This is from my hunting trip this weekend. Not retrieving something I shot is a bad feeling. To make these shots I need my stuff to be 1/2" or less. The hog was shot at 190 yards, shot a few seconds after first sight, dropping the bipod and getting prone pretty quick. The coyote was on the move at 220 yards, in and out of tall yellow grass, I was in a blind with a sand bag folded over a window opening with no rear rest. The AR is a Wilson Combat in 6.5 Creedmoor, factory Hornady ammo. The bolt is a Tikka T3X, in a Bell and Carlson stock with bottom metal from High Desert Rifle Works, factory Hornady ammo. Not sure where this one falls, somewhere a little below high end. 1/2" at the range is what I need to translate into 1-2" in the field.

Come to one of the 22 matches. Not only are they holding 1” at 100 they’re doing it under the clock. Some of our targets are 1” at 100 yards and guys are hitting it over and over in 10-20 MPH wind.

That's wild - I am truly impressed.

My saturdays are filled with kids sports or I would join that league for sure. I finally got a scope on my Anschutz and that thing is freaking lights out.

Yep. The 'net is chock full of guys who think they belong on the Camp Perry winner's podium. It's a freaking joke.

I have 3 hunting rifles that will put up a 3-5 shot group of about .2-.3 at 100 yards be glad to let you shoot one.
It will only do it for one group then you have to let it cool for prolly an hour especially in the summer time before you shoot another string.

I have a few bench rifles that will run a string of 5 in about .2-.3 no problem but when you go to 10 shots it opens up a little.. so the expectations of running a group all day long and agging in the .1’s is extremely difficult even over all the best wind flags and tools in the world. The rifles most of the time are more capable than the shooter for sure.

I don’t run my hunting gun hard, but I can garantee you it’s very accurate and is a 1/4 moa gun for 3-5 shots it has a #4 brux barrel that is fluted so it’s fairly light.

We moved them to Sunday’s this year. We normally have a steady 10-20 MPH wind.

I’d love to see a lot of these guys that are shooting tiny tiny groups with 22’s to come out. Of course we’re “PRS” type shooting and we aren’t shooting for tiny groups, but of course it doesn’t hurt.

We play Black Death at the end of every match at 25 yards. All these guys that say they can put 5 shots in same hole at 25 yards I’d love for them to come out. The Black Death is $5 buy in side bet, nothing to do with the match. 5 shots put them in any target you want without breaking the black.

It’s broken a lot of hearts.

Both my Vudoo and Anschutz can do well below 1" at 100Y if it's not too windy.
I'm sure your Anschutz can do it too.

My Kidd and CZ 452 will shoot in the 0.3s with ammo they like at 50Y but it will open up above 1" at 100Y.

But you have to shoot good ammo.
If you take a Savage 22LR and shoot bulk ammo, it won't work.

That's crazy you were shooting in the future.

At first I was like wtf is he talking about. Then I saw it.

This vls you have that shoots .7” at 100 I’d say you have an issue because the 223 is pretty good shooter and on top of that it’s pretty easy to get a .7 sized group just by throwing stuff together components wise..

How do you load?
What powder?
What style of dies do you use?
What brass, is it new?
What bullet?

I use full length Redding type s bushing die, with a wilson seater with a vld stem in the seating die. I use Imperial sizing wax sparingly. I use a k&m hand primer, and I set my die for a .0015-.0025” shoulder bump and use the appropriate bushing for .002” next tension. I drop all charges on a RCBS charge master with a aluminum insert I made to prevent over charges.
Lapua brass, federal primer with 26ish grains of 748 and a Sierra 52 or 53 smk shoots 1/4” 5 shot group in my Remington varmit, benchmark also shoots lights out with the same bullet in the 26ish range. My rifle is in a bravo chassis and has a Jewell trigger, it has a 20 moa EGW base and has a NXS 5.5-20x on it currently it’s got roughly 4-500 rounds on it and goes to the range every trip I shoot it more than anything I have mostly because it’s so economical to shoot.

All my guns shoot one shot one hole groups

Good catch!! The date was 2020.

This is getting embarrassing
I posted a screenshot from my phone to prove that I'm not shooting in the future.
It ended being a picture of the 50Y group I had shot that day.
Here's the pic of the 100Y again.
I can't believe I made the same mistake (2021) twice and on both targets.
But I can assure you those are legit groups at 50 and 100 yards.

Lapua brass neck sized
CCI400
53gr SMK
H335 from 25 to 27.2 gr
I haven't given up yet. I'm planning to try a few more things.

Jam the bullet, if you have some or can find some benchmark it’s excellent in 223, 748 is good, RL15 is good Varget is good with a full case and a jam with a 55gr vmax

Mine are:

Factory bolt gun, 1inch
Ar 1.5 inches
Garand/m1a/levergun 2-3 inches with irons at 100

All these are 3 or 5 shot groups. I know some people want 10,but for me that isn't an issue

Pistol/revolver: 2/3 inches at 25 offhand


Never had a custom rifle, so i will leave that to others. Also i have had guns that shot better than this, but if they shoot this good i ain't tossing them over accuracy

Good call on the Garand/m1a/lever.
I didn't include anything I didn't have experience with (except BR rifle), but would have liked to include muzzle loader, surplus military rifles, AK (I assume the expectation it would be 3" at 100Y), M1A with scope (rack grade vs custom barrel which I think can do 1MOA)......I guess I did miss a lot.


Also I'd like to clarify one thing. This thread is the expected accuracy. Not how good of a shot you are or how lucky you are to have such an accurate rifle. I'm also guilty in doing that. I posted two groups shot with my Vudoo at 50 and 100 Y that were amazing. BUT those are the best groups I've ever shot and doesn't demonstrate a reasonable expectation out of a high end bolt 22lr.

But I have/had several high end 22lr and all shot 0.8" or better at 100Y with good ammo. That's how I expect a high end 22lr to shoot at 100Y if not windy.

I'm moving to Texas! It must be something in the air out there!

There are several rifles made that will shoot sub MOA but there's not many shooters capable of it when put to the test. A good shooter can make a bad rifle look good, a bad shooter makes a fine rifle look bad. Kind of like putting a thousand dollar saddle on a hundred dollar horse. The average shooter will do well to keep 3 shot's inside 2 inches at a hundred yards with any rifle. One of my best friends has been shooting as long as I have and he still can't shoot under an inch and a half when it comes to punching paper, let me add that he's the best running shot maker I've ever seen. Last time I qualified for my LTC I was amazed at how many fine pistols were on the line and how poorly they were shot.

Shooting pistols is something I pride my self on and have a long history with and that right there is just wishful thinking for the majority of shooters. Maybe from a Ransom Rest you might hit those numbers but from a sand bag rest probably 80-85 percent of shooters are incapable of that. Realistic number for the majority would be keeping any of those pistols inside 3-4 inches at 25 yards.

The smell is obvious.

No doubt many of my rifles will shoot better than me. But I’m hunting, not benchrest or competition shooting.

Just like my chainsaw can carve beautiful wood sculptures, but I can’t. I use it to cut trees and limbs.

Yep every rifle and pistol I own is capable of that.

So your half an inch really isn't half an inch. it is closer to 1 inch?

On the range off of a bench, under perfect conditions, shooting at a stationary target I want to know my gun is capable of a 1/2" group, so that in the field under any circumstances I can hit inside the 1-2" spot I'm aiming at.

I would agree 100% with the comments above. I was commenting on the intrinsic accuracy of the pistols, not the average shooter's ability to get that out of a pistol.

What is the distance to target at the range? 25 yards? 50? Just trying to get an understanding. My .270 and .243 "At the range" are shot at 200 yards and can put 5 in a 2.5 inch circle with me shooting at a bench with factory Core-Lokt's and a couple sandbags.(And I am not a good shot) Not sure what that is for an MOA but I know with confidence that every animal I shoot at is going down and that is all that really matters, to me at least.

All of you superhuman shooters taking fleas out at 1000 yards are my heroes!!

Kyle ain't lying, there are some outstanding positional shooters in that league (I ain't one of them) hitting targets out to 300 yds. My Tikka T1X with an IBI barrel shoots really well and I can shoot decent off a bench but suck at the positional PRS stuff. Below are 10 shot groups at 50 yds from the bench with bipod and rear bag.

the real secret to making any gun shoot under moa is to keep moving the target closer to the end of the barrel til you get the desired groups works almost every time

Sounds to me like you have reasonable skills and a capable rifle, you just need ammo tuned to the rifle.

100 yards.

As for the fleas at 1,000 yards, that ain't me.

That works until the muzzle blast starts blowing you target apart.

Ain't nothing, I was shooting flea's at 18 miles, it was with a 175mm Howitzer. Hell I got multiple flea's with one shot!

Thank you, but are you saying that there might be better ammo out there than Core-lokts?

You had me up till now for sure.

Sorry, that was sarcasm and I forgot the rolling guy emoji. I know that there is much better ammo but I am a creature of habit. Plus, I have a lot to shoot through before I would change...

It seems that consensus for a custom bolt is a consistent 0.25" at 100Y with hand loads. Good to know. I don't have any of those, but it's definitively on my list of guns to buy. I do have an AIAT with a bartlein barrel in 260, but I can "only" have a consistent 0.33" at 100Y. At the same time AI isn't a full custom gun.