M-1 Garand, values

I've seen them on Gunbroker from $1,000 - $10,000

What are specific things to look for to establish value? I have a couple of these I'm looking at plus an M-1 Carbine. I've heard matching numbers, Manufacturer, etc

Any "experts" on here? Thought I would check here before hitting the google machine

Garands, four different manufacturers: Springfield (not armory), International Harvester, H&R and Winchester all 30-06. GI’s would strip rifles for cleaning and throw parts from different rifles into cleaning solution and reassemble rifles with no concern towards parts. Therefore trigger groups, op rods, gas cylinders, bolts would be all mixed up and all these parts were coded by their manufacturer. A very large percentage would have gone thru rebuild facilities where barrels would be changed, stocks sanded removing original inspectors cartouche stamps, etc. After WW2 many were given to other countries such as Denmark, Greece, etc. The CMP brought a lot of these Garands back to the US for sale here. Theses rifles were not import marked but could contain parts mfg in those countries. A safe bet would be to check the Civilian Marksmanship program for criteria to purchase from them. Their rifles would be considered as shooters and offered in different grades depending on condition. If you are looking for a collector there is a lot to study up on.

The CMP is absolutely the best way to get a Garand for the collection without paying the extra $500 or more that private sellers ask. The only downside is that it takes a while. My order took 3 months to even get an email confirming its receipt.

I’m not an expert, but I have studied and collected M1 Garand rifles and M1 Carbines for about 8 years. I have 15 +/- books on them. I have 13-14 Garands sand I’m not sure how manyCarbines. When I get one I study it: every part, etc. I believe I know more about these than most people, but I am still far from an expert on them.

1. Everything Rifle.30Cal and HicksHunter stated is spot on.

2. There is no such thing as “numbers matching” with respect to the Garand and M1Carbine. Parts were not serialized to a specific rifle. If you picked one off of the end of the assembly line there is not one part that would share the serial number, or even last 4 digits of the serial number, as the receiver. Anyone selling a “numbers matching” Garand or Carbine at best doesn’t know what he is talking about and is merely repeating what the guy he bought it from told him. At worst he is a charlatan.

3. You can buy a “correct” Carbine or Garand. This means it has parts consistent with the month and year of manufacture. Doesn’t make it a better shooter, but some collectors enjoy the challenge of putting together a “correct” Carbine or Garand. A “correct” rifle or carbine almost always has been “corrected” at expense a time of the collector who did it in the enjoyment of his hobby. A “correct” rifle or carbine may sell to people who know what they are looking at, for a premium, but if you don’t have the expertise to verify each part is”correct”, then you are paying for a sales pitch.

4. If someone claims to have an “all original” carbine or Garand and
a) if he doesn’t have proof (almost to the point of a John Garand signed document!), then he is lying;
b) if he isn’t charging $10,000 +/-, then he is lying.

5. Best $750 M1 Garand You Can Buy - Go to the CMP website. Order a Service Grade. $750. You have to do some paperwork, join a firearms related lab (Garand Collectors Association is $25), send in paperwork and your check / CC, wait 3-4 months, and dance a jig when the brown UPS truck delivers your rifle to you.

6. M1 Carbines cost more currently, and are not available at the CMP any more. Advice: Buy only USGI manufacture (not commercial clones such as Santa Fe Arsenal, Universal, Golden State, etc). The exception is “Plainfield” which is almost always good to go since they used all USGI parts, .... until they had to start using commercial parts. For a decent “shooter grade” USGI carbine, you are looking at $1,200 and up. And it seems you have to really look to find the $1,200 ones any more. It is a heck of a fun gun to shoot though. You can probably pick up a non-USGI carbine for $400-$600, .... but I wouldn’t.

JGW

JGW pretty much nailed it. I'll add if you really want a correct collector M1 Garand from time to time they'll come up on CMP's auction site. Expect to pay a premium price! If you want a "Like New" M1 Garand you can buy a CMP special, it'll have, new barrel, new stock and possibly some new parts, the rest of the parts will be refinished GI parts. They look really nice but the stock is not finished. You can choose to finish with Linseed oil or tung oil. Both are easy to apply and have beautiful finishes. They also have CMP Special "rack Grade" M1 Garand that'll have new stocks and barrels with a pitted refinished receiver and the rest of the parts will have the original finish. They'll be good shooters.

If you want to get into Garands, you owe it to your self to get a few books by Scott Duff and learn up on them. Prices depend upon manufacturer, condition, how correct it is, etc. The most money goes to guns with their original barrels especially so for WW2 Garands. I've owned a few, quite a few over the years. Many were "correct" but as JGW noted only a couple were what I considered to be all original. Winchester Garands are the more desirable from the WW2 period (not counting Gas Trap guns which are all but unobtainium). Post war guns the creme of the crop are the International Harvesters of which there are a number of variants. I always strove to get guns with the original barrels but there is absolutely nothing wrong with a WW2 gun that has gone thru a Korean War era rebuild. There is/was a pretty nice one on the gun board now.

Earl

you guys are great. thanks very much for your knowledge. i'm going to look at one tomorrow and will get pictures and all the info i can. i may buy it if yall think its a good one. all i know is it was shot in "Garand" matches maybe 10 years ago. it was worked on by a guy who has now passed

I paid 1200.00 for mine. It’s a CMP rebuild I believe as it came in one of their hard cases and the stock looks new.

I sighted it in at 200 and later that week in the pasture shot my steel coyote target at 410 yards with it all 3 shots hitting in a 4 inch group right on the coyotes neck / shoulder.
It was worth all I paid for it just for those 3 shots in front of my friends.

Thanks to all posters in this thread. Very educational!

Stepson's Winchester M-1 Garand did very well with a hand load. Battle sights and somehow I managed a 1" group at 100 yards.

I feel like I need an International Harvester Garand.

Nice, I'll post pictures this afternoon

Just beware some Garands have been welded. Dad had two, one he fixed up with side mount scope and hunted with. These can come apart when fired. Dad was very fortunate. Gunsmith I used at the time knew of this and help me destroy both. The welds are in action area and if you know how to pull the action out quickly you can see the welds.

Are the welds just poor quality? What are they there for?

where is the best place to sell one? Forums?

A lot of M1s have been “demilled” .... the receivers literally cut in half. Same with 1903s, etc. people / companies have purchased piles of these as scrap metal in government auctions and welded the halves back together. If done carefully and skillfully, you can end up with a safe firearm. But the market value is considerably less than a non-reweld. The only reason I would buy a reweld would be if it is super cheap ($150?) and then to disassemble to use the parts or sell them, and then use the reweld receiver as a paper weight. That doesn’t mean someone’s reweld rifle is “bad”or dangerous, it’s just that a reweld is a crap shoot.

JGW

CMP, here on THF, GB, Texasguntrader, let your gunsmith know you have one (people will often ask their gunsmith).

JGW

Amen to this. I just received one from them a few weeks ago - an H&R that was made between 1954-1956 and doesn't appear to have ever been used. Lots of storage and rack wear, but the muzzle and throat are perfect.

One other note about M1 Garands and carbines is that some manufacturers only made receivers, and the rest of the parts were mixed from other manufacturers. Other manufacturers might use all their own parts, or mix & match. I have a Quality Hardware M1 carbine, and they used Winchester barrels and National Postal Meter parts on many of their carbines. So a 'factory correct' rifle may have parts from several different companies.

"One other note about M1 Garands and carbines is that some manufacturers only made receivers, and the rest of the parts were mixed from other manufacturers. Other manufacturers might use all their own parts, or mix & match. I have a Quality Hardware M1 carbine, and they used Winchester barrels and National Postal Meter parts on many of their carbines. So a 'factory correct' rifle may have parts from several different companies."


Absolutely true. Additionally, the prime contractors (manufacturers of the receivers, i.e., Inland, Quality Hardware, Rockola, IBM, etc., etc.) did not usually manufacture all of their own parts (I don't recall if any of the prime contractors manufactured 100% of their parts in house, but if anyone did I would expect it to be Inland). Numerous subcontractors provided parts to the prime contractors. And prime contractors would "share" parts with other prime contractors as needed. Also, prime contractors would contract with other prime contractors for parts.

Carbine collecting, once you get past:

(1) one model from each of the 10 prime contractors;
(2) one model from each major "variant" (and there can be lots of debate over what that even means, but to me it is one "as original" with type one barrel band, one "as original" with type 2 barrel band, and one "as original" with type 3 barrel band);
(3) at least one high wood stock; and
(4) an M1A1 (paratrooper model);

is extremely complicated, detailed, etc. "Correcting" a Carbine I think is much more complex than "correcting" a Garand (though both can be done of course). Even just acquiring the above "short list" is a major (and expensive) accomplishment.

JGW

Thank you for the explanation.

got the rifle, its going to be expensive. in a hurry i;ll put in classifieds with pictures an history tonight or tomorrow

Oh lord.... if it has a history then watch out.

Depends on if he knew what he was buying

Buzz by all means list it here but I can attest that when I sold off my collection the classifieds here probably didn't account for many of my sales. You won't get top dollar here for a Garand. The best place to sell garands is the for sale forumn on the CMP's website.

Earl

I’m looking forward to hearing about it and seeing pics.

JGW

To get top dollar you are going to have to post detailed pics of drawing numbers so people can tell if the trigger housing, hammer, trigger guard, operating rod, bolt, barrel, etc. are correct for the gun. I can already tell you at best the stock has been sanded from your photos no circle P or Inspectors stamp will be evident. The barrel will be marked on the right side and visible in the op rod channel when you pull the bolt to the rear and lock the action open. People will also want to see the sides of the receiver to see if there are any arsenal rework indications there as any that were on the stock, are now gone. People will also want to see the op rod to see if it has been cut during a return to the arsenal or is uncut. I do warn you, if it's not correct your price is quite high but that's just one former collectors opinion. Having a lockbar rear site is nice, but it's no guarantee of originality or correctness. When the guns were returned either for field repairs or to an arsenal for repair, any hodge podge of parts and periods could be assembled onto a gun before returning to service. For a WW2 gun to be desirable, it has to have a barrel that dates within a month or so earlier of the serial number in general. Remember I mentioned getting Duff's books and learning about them? They are indispensable. People will also want to know what the chamber and bore gauge readings are..your barrel could be shot out if original (or even replaced for that matter). So those readings indicate how much life an old warrior still has - not to mention potential accuracy. If you don't have gauges, you can always try a bullet test. Take a M1 30-06 round and place the bullet end in the bore. If it goes all the way down and swallows it, that's not good.

Thank you Earl. I alway value your opinions. You are a wealth of knowledge on here. I have dove into the internet and am reading about just the things you are mentioning here. Learning a lot!!

My price is from what I see on gunbroker only.

Looking forward to learning more about these pieces of History.

Wow, that was one of the more educational and interesting threads on the forum.

No problem. I imagine we aren't probably supposed to post links to stuff for sale on other sites but this one is for informational purposes only for you as this was an all original one I sold a decade ago on the CMP forum but gives you an idea of the type of info buyers will want to know (wish I still had it, sounds like it would sell for much more these days). I uploaded the photos again so the links are good. There are a TON of photos to prove provenance/originality. I wish go God I still owned this baby. The upgrades I did to the house 10 years ago are already in need of more work

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=51199

Earl, those lockbars look a lot like Type 1, short pinion!

JGW

that's because they are. Extremely rare. Also large wheel EMcF ordnance stamp, and the front sight is still sealed.

Earl, you had me at “that’s because they are”!

In today’s market Type 1 Lockbars are going for at least $1k. I bought a “Grandpa’s deer rifle” a few years ago from the grandson. Grandpa had cut it down, shortened op rod, etc. (garage gunsmithing). It surprisingly ran fine. I wasn’t going to buy it and then I saw the rear sights. I couldn’t pull the dollar bills out of my pocket fast enough. All the other parts were original to the rifle as well. I assume he got it through the NRA or DCM back in the 60;s.

JGW

I have noticed several nice WWII rifles for sale but not much interest on here.

Why is this? Is everyone more interested in AR's because of impending possible restrictions? Panic buying of "anything" modern?

The people interested in a $1000+ 1903 Springfield, or $1200+ Garand are collectors- a fairly small niche. It's a big pill for the average shooter to swallow. They didn't move that quickly before COVID, so I think this is just a continuation of the same.

Not many folks are into shooting open sights. Old Military rifles are heavier types with lots of recoil. Like HicksHunter said, mostly for collectors. The one you posted is just a run of the mill M1 Grand with one part an even smaller amount of Collectors want. The nice refinishef stock actually drops the value of it to Collectors. I'd give $850 for it.

My buddy just sold one for $1,000.

Model Ts or Model As don't sell quick on a Mustang forum either.

It's all about your intended buyer population. As others noted, there are only so many active collectors of older military weapons. While I've collected them in the past, I don't now. Used to be I could buy an all matching vet bring back K98 for $600 and I'm not talking some Russian capture imported piece of dog crap either. I could buy M1 Garands for the same $$. I paid the same $600-$700 for matching WW2 German Lugers in pristine condition WITH holsters. I had just about every WW2 German pistol in Whittington's German pistol books, many purchased from Whittington himself who was a friend . And examples of all of the rifles - extremely rare things like Steyr 29(0), G33/40, G91/40, G41, G43, etc. I also had about every Japanese WW2 rifle and pistol made with few exceptions including many concentric circle rifles, love of country guns, and many sniper rifles.. Indeed for years I was a nationally known collector in that field. If I could have held on to everything I owned at one time I'd probably be a very rich man now!

Those fields were and are small, buyers congregate on specific places and this isn't one of them. For US martial arms, the best place is the CMP forums.

Earl

True Earl, you have some really nice firearms.

It's a bad time to get into collecting. Most people are looking to fortify their "armory" and veteran collectors have higher aspirations than the ones you have for sale. There are three Garands and a Carbine for sale here and I would not pay four digits for any of them. Not because they are bad guns but because none of them are worth asking priceto me.

...also a 1917 pistol and a 1903 Springfield on this forum for high asking prices and no action...

The M1 Carbine has been marked SPF, all the other WWI and WWII guns are still for sale.

I agree, most here are more concerned about self defence and hunting. It is a Hunting forum after all. Having much better luck on other forums. I am lowering the price on the Garand next week.

Buzz,
You'll find a bigger audience of potential buyers if you advertise on the CMP's classified forum section.

https://forums.thecmp.org/forumdisplay.php?f=87

Lot's of folks who are looking for them who are familiar with CMP will start there. No wait time.

Get all the details you can off the rifle... see that data sheet I sent you the link to. At a minimum, you'll want info on the trigger group, op rod, barrel date and mfg, receiver s/n range, and any stock markings (I think this one was refinished).

With the exception of the 1917 pistol, in my opinion they are priced a little bit too high. Not much, but those that are looking for these know where to find them for about $100-200 cheaper. Not all of them fall into this category and the supply and demand changes, but that's been my observation.

Not trying to tell anyone to lower their price, just something to think about. It seems to be a market for selling ammo and firearms that are making headlines.

It's worth the drive to Alabama to hand pick your own. I went 7 years ago and got a awesome HRA. Thing shoots lights out.

If you go the CMP route, you will not get a re-weld. Period. It can't go back through the US Army property books as an active firearm if it's been demilled.

You can (or used to be able) buy ceremonial rifles that were welded (bolts had the selector switch welded) and you could get some nice wall hangers or parts guns as JGW pointed out.

There for a while, some of the A4 (03-A3 sniper variant) bolt actions were on the market after being re-welded, but they were through other commercial sources.

I strongly concur that the best Garand and surplus WWI, WWII, and Korean service rifles can be had through the CMP. Just pick your price point and you will not be disappointed. And if anything ever goes wrong with it... the have always taken care of it without hesitation. If you have deep pockets and really want to support the CMP mission, I'd encourage you to go through the CMP auction route. A while back there was a pair of unissued Korean era Garands still in paper.