Does this make you rethink your carry gun?

I am attempting to retry this way in a manner that doesn't get the thread tossed, as i think it is an interesting and possibly important topic, so hopefully this is OK

There was an officer involved shooting a little while back where the officer shot a guy 12 times at just a few feet and the guy just kept walking forward like nothing was happening. If the officer would have had a lower round count gun, IDK what the result would have been. From what i have gathered, the gun used was a G17, but I cannot guarantee that. I will not post a link to the video and ask that no one else does either, as I *think* that is why my post on this a couple of days ago got tossed.

So, thoughts or opinions?


And mods, I hope i did this in a way that is OK

My primary carry gun is a 45acp with Cor-bon +P 230 grain rounds. My alternate (for days when I'm in sweats pants or such) is a little bitty Taurus 38 Special revolver. It also has +P hollowpoints. I would hope to God that it would take only 2 or 3 hits from that to stop someone in their tracks.

If anything next time post this topic to the bunker.

Anyway

It's insane to think someone can absorb 12 rounds of duty ammo(if they were loaded), without repercussion or damage. It's possible that the HP's(guessing he was loaded with em) the officer was using got clogged and didn't expand. Only the Officer would know, but carrying FMJ's is sort of the final deal if you don't have HP's. Also at what point does it become relevant to take fatal shots at the upper body?

My primary carry gun is a Shadow Systems MR920 with a 15 round mag full of Federal HST 147gr HP and an extra 15 round mag full of the same carried appendix in a "side car" type holster. On days I have to wear slacks and tucked in shirt, which is once or twice a month, I carry a G43X which only has a 10 round mag, but looking to get some of the Shield Arms mags that hold 15 rounds for the G43X, they're just hard to come by right now. I also shoot the full size gun much better than the smaller 43X, which is why I carry it vs the 43X.

Shot placement is important.

I saw that video and it did make me re-think it. But I've got my 8-shot Shield and I'm rolling with it.

I carry a G19 or 43X with 15+rounds of 124gr Gold Dots. If that doesn't get the job done.....I guess it's just my time to meet my maker.

I do my best to avoid making decisions based on exceptions but rather on what has proven to hold true in the vast majority of cases.

Did you see the video?

I have never figured out how to get to the bunker

Basically all in the chest from about 3 to 5 foot is what the video looked like.

I used to think that way too. I had changed my mind long before this video came out though. Seems to be way too many exceptions

Most people don't realize that handguns are incredibly weak and they also don't think about the actual mechanism of death when a person gets shot. When a person or animal gets shot they can continue running around doing whatever they want until they bleed out, sustaine damage to the central nervous system that shuts down everything past it, or there are major structural issues such as a broken joint. As long as the will exist to keep moving and theyre is still oxygen going to the brain and the skeleton has not been damaged enough to cause structural failure then nothing will stop a person or animal from moving after they've been shot if they want to move.

The man that you're describing expired within 30 seconds of taking the first shot. If someone is coming at you and you've already shot them with no response then assume they're wearing body armor and shoot them in either the throat, head, or pelvis. Throat wounds are usually fatal quite quickly and have the potential to drop someone on the spot if they take a bullet through the spine. Head wounds are weird; I've seen people missing half their skull windmilling and their arms and running in circles. Pelvic wounds normally drop a person on the spot. They may be able to keep firing when they're down but they're not really going to move much and they bleed out really fast.

Nah, I'll just judy chop em.

i saw the video.


its quite possible the guy was high on some kind of narcotic but I could not believe the cop did a mag dump into the perp at that range and he kept on coming with a creepy grin on his face. I was quite suprised at that and I'm not under any false illusion that a 9mm pistol is some kind of hammer, but I would have expected results quicker. Its hard to say what a person would have done in that situation but I hope if i was put in that scenario I would have the wherewithal after the first 3 shots to brain him or as mentioned previously, shoot him in the throat

That's why I sold all my guns. Completely ineffective

Anybody see the video of the guy take a nice shot of bear mace to the face and shrug it off like it was fire sauce from TB?










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I'm carrying a Shield as well, 115 gr HTTP +P loads. If I put the first three center mass and the perp is still coming, then I'm either going upper chest/head area or lower torso with 1-2. Then I'm keeping the last couple of rounds while I try to create distance or as a last resort inside of three feet.

Is there a secret subforum that I never knew about?

2 to the chest 1 to the head

Don't go Ninja'n nobody that don't need no ninja'n.

Xds .45 hydro shocks.

Delta elite 10mm.

Nope I hope I am good, mainly hope and pray I will never have to find out.

This. He’d of dropped after the 3rd shot but I believe LEO are only “supposed” to shoot to slow down the threat, not kill the threat. I know as a LTC carrier we’re supposed to do the same but if I shot someone 10 times and they’re still coming, there’s 1 sure fire way to stop the threat and that’s head shot.

Yeah....


I know a guy that got shot in the head by the popo, arrested, went to jail, and is out today to tell about it.....

Can somebody pm the link

Sent

Glock 29 with a 15 round backup mag loaded with Underwood 180gr JHP and 140gr Xtreme predator. No, I'm not paranoid.......................

I saw it and I thought the dude was wearing body armor initially

With pistols- shot placement is everything.

It looked like he shot the guy center mass a few times at just a few feet

The evidence is clear that only direct CNS hits or structural breakage hits (femur, pelvis, etc) are 100% reliable. Everything else is done on a "best effort" basis.

There will always be an anomaly. That scenario is not the norm of head shots. I’ve seen enough to know.

Looks as if a plan came together , as the Officer started shooting he pretty much stopped getting hit by the stick. The bad guy was a dead man walking and there are many videos like this. More than likely the bad guy was mental or on drugs which makes it even more Interesting. Someone already mentioned heads, necks, and the pelvis will have a faster stopping action and I totally agree and should be practiced.

This Officer was lucky IMO as that guy was real close

For sure.

But I've also seen enough people shoot, that I dont think the majority would even be able to hit that guy in the head, one handed, while backing up and trying to dodge a stick....

Are you sure a headshot is not acceptable in a legitimate self defense scenario?

Acceptable? Yes.

Attainable by 95% of the population? Probably not.

Thank you. At 12 feet a shot to the face seems like it might have produced results. I did not see the video.

About 6’ and closing

I carry a Glock 23 Gen 4 and with 13 rounds of 180gr HST's I feel safe enough. But it all depends on shot placement and more importantly, proper mind set.

Dats why I carry a .40sw with 180s

Interesting responses so far. For those that say after 2 shots to the chest on a moving target, while you are moving, then you would transition to the neck or head of a moving target while you are moving, have you ever attempted anything to simulate that? If so, did you attempt it with your carry gun?


I think even at the short ranges we are talking about, transitioning to a head shot on a moving target, while you are moving with a compact gun, while attempting to not get hit with a stick, or for instance stuck with a knife, may be considerably harder than you realize. I suggest you try it at speed at 3 steps and see how you do. I would think if you could do 3 shots in under a second, that might translate into being able to doing under stress.

And 3 shots in a second isn't that fast, shot one would start the clock, 2 should happen under .3 seconds and that would give you .7 for the transition and the head shot. If that sounds tough, remember neither you or the target are moving.

Pistol up, Safety off, aim, 2 to the chest 1 to the head. Safety on, low ready, repeat. That's how I practice. Hopefully I've practiced it enough that if I ever have to do it, I'll be able to. I pray I'll never have to.
And yes, I can do it in 1 second at typical self defense distances.
My carry is a p938. 7+1, and no, I haven't considered switching to a full size with more capacity. Sometimes I even carry a revolver with even less capacity.

Good deal, next can you do it walking backwards? And what about while walking sideways?

The target still won't be moving, but at least you would be

That did not make me rethink my carry gun. Mine is comfortable, reliable, powerful, and most of all It is an extension of my hand. I do not care to spend money, time , ammo and brain cells to change because I saw a random video.

Yes Ive done it, on a paper target, up to 15 yards while side stepping, approaching and moving away front the target. It’s hard, takes practice and concentration, but it’s doable, especially at the distance the referenced shooting happened.

The idea behind 2 to the chest and 1 to the head is the influx of body armor used bad criminals and who knows who else.

When in a situation that dictates the use of deadly force, the job is to “stop the threat” and if the threat happens to die during that process of being stopped, well that’s just part of it.

Link

Link

Link

please

Then, I'll tell yall how its done

I'm pretty confident in my abilities. Confident enough that when the gun comes up, muscle memory kinda takes over.

Nope I carry my 26 or 19 depending on day and what im wearing. I also work closely with LEO. I can tell you this, the officer cant retreat unless there is no other option. Once they fire they have to get control of the subject. As a citizen I can shoot and retreat and get to safety, I do not have to render aid or detain the person. They may be moving after my gun goes dry but I promise they wont be moving as well as I can. But if all that fails I feel confident in my hand to hand skills to survive.

45 AUTO big and slow
I'll take my chances

The main thing i think i took from this video for me is the NEED to transition if what you are doing isn't working. While i have practiced Mozambique drills, and even moving headshots on moving targets, i don't think i have ever really considered the NEED to switch from center mass to head/hip in an actual possible gunfight, even though i new it could a possibility. For me this video shows a slight change in mindset would be more beneficial than a change in equipment at this time

XDs .45 ACP

I've only got 6 rounds. And it has concerned me for a while.

Chambered round is 230 gr Gold Dot
Round 2 is 230 gr FMJ
Gold Dot
FMJ
Gold Dot
FMJ

I "think" that is worth loading that way. My thinking was "over penetration" was not necessarily a bad thing, unless a bystander is behind bad guy. The guy in the video soaked them up, and like B.I.L. said was a dead man walking. But he lived long enough he could have killed the officer. Bad guy was way too close.

I absolutely need to practice more!

Anything you can carry on a daily basis is a compromise. If you knew you were going to be in a shooting today:

1. Stay home, avoid it at all costs.

2. If avoidance is not an option, you would carry a rifle or shotgun or almost anything you have that is bigger and more powerful than anything you can conceal.

But, since the first and most important rule of gunfighting is "have a gun", I carry what I can carry concealed. The more you learn about this subject, the more you will realize that these discussions are interesting but not terribly useful beyond that. Of course, concealable handguns are generally not instant fight-stoppers. But would you rather go into an armed conflict with your concealable handgun or pepper spray or a pocket knife or your keychain, etc.?

You’re well prepared

Not sure it makes me rethink my CC firearm but it does make me think about improved shooting skills under stress and training.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE9qooFUqsk&t=2s

I normally dont think too highly of that guys statements.... but that one I tend to agree with.

This. If what you're doing didn't work quickly the 1st three times you did it, doing it nine more times the same way probably isn't going to rapidly change the outcome. I can't carry enough gear to deal with every possible scenario. Nor do I have the time or money to sufficiently train with all that gear. I can carry enough gear to prepare for the most likely events... and train to be flexible with with what I have to deal with feasible outliers.

Bigron makes a lot of sense. Do I think I'm John Wayne or Clint Eastwood? In my dreams maybe. But the bottom line is, I shoot a lot. I always follow bigron's most important rule of gunfighting. And I'm personally confident in my abilities. All the rest of it is interesting internet talk. Practice with your weapon. Be confident. Have a gun in a gunfight. Do these things and you'll probably end up living longer.

I have been carrying my G21.4 with a total of three mags lately. As opposed to the G17.3 or G22.4 with three mags total.

Perp had to have been juiced up on something. Never flinched as cop dumped a mag into him.