Big Bore Hunting Rig-----.338 or Bigger

I've been looking at free-range Texas nilgai hunts for a while now, and many of the outfitters/guides require a .338 or larger. So of course I feel like I have a great excuse to build/buy a .338 (or bigger) rifle. I've looked at barrels for my TC Pro Hunter, and that definitely seems like the most economical choice. On the other hand, it wouldn't break my heart if i had to start building a new rifle with a big hole down the middle. I'm looking at .338 WinMag and up. I need input on caliber, pre-fit barrels, actions, complete factory rifles....basically any pertinent info will help. Ready......BREAK!

If it’s a one time hunt for Nilgai I would probably lean towards a .300 of various flavors, simply because in Texas a .338 would really not have a justified use outside of Nilgai. A .300 will handily dispatch a Nilgai

I have limited experience with a .338 win mag. A Brown bear/ Moose rifle is the only reason I would want one. I thought about building a .338-06 when I had a spare 06’ laying around but ended up selling the rifle.


The one I shot, to me, seemed like a lot of recoil vs. performance for what I was prepping for, which was an elk hunt.

You obviously didn't read my post, so I'm not going to read the rest of your reply.

If you don't need the rifle right now keep an eye open at gun shows and shops. Calibers above 30 tend to be slow sellers and deals can be had. I picked up a like new 9.3x62 CZ550 at a show for $300 with brass and dies. The dealer just wanted to get rid of it, most people dropped it like a hot potato when they read the caliber.

A 338 Winchester or 340 Weatherby are good rifles for larger game, the Lapua tends to be too tactical for hunting.
A 375 H&H is adequate to hunt anything that roams the earth but with proper bullets is used for smaller game.

M
.

Thank you, M. The 375 H&H is one of the calibers that I've been looking at the most. I really can't see anything negative about it. And I could get a barrel for my TC for a few hundred bucks.

There are 375's on Mauser actions that are good guns but not the fashion now. The can be had for the price of an Encore barrel. I have a Whitworth I bought a a show from a private party late on Sunday. Guy was putting the hard sell on me and I told him I only had 200 bucks, not enough to even make an civilized offer. He said "Give me the 200" and handed me the rifle.
When you are at the show or shop look for a fat barrel with iron sights and don't be afraid to give a lowball offer.

When you say 338 win mag and up, what do you really mean?

Does a 35 wheelen or 9.3x62 count? Cause those have always intrigued me. A 45-70 with the proper load will outpace a 338 with 300 grain bullets, and can be done (but not recommended by me ) in the TC.

If none of those, I’d go with a 375 H&H or 375 ruger.

No doubt the 375 will do the job, here is a thread with a couple of Nilgai taken with a Ruger #1 375.

https://texashuntingforum.com/forum...ings-on-a-failed-nilgai-hunt#Post7411879

.338 Lapua Mag, or I'm gonna call you a cat.

I have a 350 Rem Mag or 9.3x62 you can borrow. Nilgai has been on my list for a long time. Meat is exceptional.

9.3x62 is about perfect.

Well, of course it's dumb.

So there's that...

Just to be clear, the outfitters only specify the minimum bullet diameter and not the cartridge itself. I'm considering inventing a .338 Blackout.

🤣🤣🤣

Ok, I've seriously got it solved.

Lets build a 33 Nosler.

And then spin up another barrel for 28 Nosler.

Switch-barrel it up.

You know I am about to screw that 375 H&H barrel on that Savage I am about to pick up. You are welcome to it as long as you can handle shooting a right handed rifle wrong handed.

If we can do that on my magnum action that's already barreled with a 26 Nosler, I'm in all F'ng day. That's actually a great idea. Your mustache gives you wisdom beyond your years.

I believe some “ outfitters” don’t have a clue about guns/calibers

That's what I was thinking...find different outfitters. But, he's building guns and I didn't want to take that from him...since you're gonna be a donkey, I'll go with ya

My thoughts exactly.

Same action, bottom metal, and stock for all of them. Long action .540" bolt face.

Mustache been gone since June, and I'm still wise.

^^Fact

Fireman can go build you a .338 and you can go shoot all the Nilgai on the king ranch. Then y’all can sit around the fire and circle jerk in all your infinite wisdom until the Chinese new year runs out of fireworks.

Both of you guys are clown shoes. If anyone wants to know how to kill a steel plate I would advise them giving you a call, when it comes to hunting y’all are about as experienced as my 12 year old.

Haaaaaaa!

More stupidity. I've spilled more blood from 10 feet to 800 yards than you'll ever do 100 yards at a feeder, sitting in a heated blind.

Under 5’9 show down , let’s get it on

I’d take a bet on that

It looks like I inadvertently found the dumbass by asking a legitimate question. I mean, we were already 100% sure who was the dumbass, but now we're 110% sure. We should host a THF Face-2-Face Extravaganza!!! so some of these morons have a chance to stand behind their internet persona. I'll contribute right away.

Why aren't we focusing this thread more on this statement? Is he even recognizable? Does he look over 30? Or did the handlebars make him look younger? Does he look over 60?

Where's the selfie for proof?

I probably hate the 338 Win Mag more than any other rifle cartridge on earth. I know there is nothing wrong with it but every 338 Win Mag I have ever owned beat the living crap out of me! The recoil is flat out violent! In all fairness to the 338 all of the ones I have owned were standard sporter weight rifles so that didn't help.

I know you like to shoot a lot so I bet you wont enjoy the 338 Win Mag much unless you build it heavy. If I were going to take a beating I would just step up to the 375H&H. I expect a 375 to beat the crap out of me, I don't expect the kind of beatings the 338 Win Mag dishes out.

He looks like a 15 year old, but the 15 year old that wants to kick everyone’s [censored].

The 375 is a pussycat compared to the 338 Win. I just had this conversation with Jeremy. The 338 is violent where as the 375 is like a shove. I would rather shoot my 375 than my Marlin 45/70 with Leverevolution factory rounds, much less my handloaded 405 hard cast at 2000fps.

I had a 375 H&H and loved it. About 20 rounds at the bench was my limit though. Dang thing was accurate though with 270 grain Sierras. Tractored on here has one he’s been trying to sell for 4 years in and off. Left handed Sako A7.

338 win is tough to beat, it's been proving itself for decades. Me being a Weatherby guy I'd go with their 340 but I'd love to have a good 375 H&H laying around. Capstick called it the little 375 but I noticed he always had one around camp.

Who we gonna get to give you a duece and a half show down?

Since you have to be 338 or bigger, and since I don't like comps on hunting rifles or heavy hunting rifles, and I don't like getting beat up too bad by recoil, I would start by looking at the 35 Whelen and see if there was anything you needed done that it wouldn't do. Have fun on your nilgai hunt oh, that's something I always thought would be fun to do

If you do look into the Whelen look into the 338-06 as well. It’s what I built after researching the two. Both are impressive without the punishment of the big magnums.

That's the reason I built an AR10 in 338 Federal. Nilgai is on the list one day, and as the OP stated lots of places have a minimum requirement of 338.

I I was going to hunt Nilgai and the outfit said "338 minimum" I would make darn sure they meant any 338 cartridge. Most people who say 338 are referring to the Winchester Mag and have not heard of the Federal.

338-06 with 200 gr boolits if you want to stay mainstream. 338 Sherman with 250 gr if you want to get fancy, although tony would prob never talk to either one of us again.




But.... A 33 Nos with 285 ELD-M would be big medicine. Switch barrel 33N/28N would be sick!

Regardless, get a good muzzle break

Question, how big are these nilgai ? My 300wsm has taken everything up to cow bison, shiras moose too. Why do they need a .338?
Not looking for a fight but just want to know why the need for such a large caliber ?

Yep, 338-06 tops out 225g. Bigger than that and you’re going backwards.

I've never hunted Nilgai, nor have I ever seen one in person, but I have read about them on the interweb, so, I am an expert. They are big animals with tough skin and they have a reputation for not going down easily. Would a .30 cal magnum take one down? I would guess the answer is yes. But the outfitter has stipulated .338 or bigger.

Man, I bet in a encore framed rifle anything over 338 is gonna be pretty stiff recoil.. I have a whitworth in 375 h&h mag that was bought for around $400 and it shoots moa at 100 yards with a 250-270 gr bullet stacks them in there nicely weighs just over 9 pounds so not super terrible to carry around. I would think that you can probably pick up a whole rifle for less or around a barrel setup for the pro hunter.
Some of these other wild cats like the 338-06 look pretty dang nice too, but I bet they come at a cost and long wait times.

Lots of folks buy these big safari calibers and can’t manage them so they sell them fairly cheap with little wear and tear. Just an idea..

Good muzzle brake and ear pro.

Then load a big ole pullet with a compressed powder charge, and let it eat.

Nilgai bulls are around 500 - 600 lbs. Tough thicker skinned antelope from India.

The reason outfitters use a bigger gun ( although ive never met one with a .338 min, many do have .300 minimums) is a lot of times they are hunted out of a top drive and they don’t stand still very long which equals to a lot of running shots. Not to mention there vitals are between their shoulders not behind so a typical lung shot will send them running.

A .300 mag of any flavor, will crush any Nilgai walking. I know guys who kill the hell outta them with .30-06’s and stout 180 grain bullets. If they are standing still unaware and you put the bullet right a person will be fine. Lots are killed down in the RGV by guys shooting .270’s and 7mm’s with regular soft points when they stumble into their deer setups

On my list would be 338-06, 350 rem mag, 9.3x62, 45-70.

Out of them my first pick would likely be the 45-70, full power loads for whatever you think you need them for and cowboy/mid grade loads and it makes a fun effective short range hunter.

I do think I would probably just take my 300 wby and find a different outfitter unless you specifically want to build a big bore for another purpose.

This is the route I'd go for just one hunt but if you want to build one it's not like we have to "justify" it, right? I'd pay to watch you shoot the 338 Win Mag in an Encore with no break.

A-Square got the 338-06 standardized so dies are readily available. It’s also a fairly common chamber for a savage prefit, usually in stock because it’s a little known cartridge.

Buddy of mine built a 338 Ultramag coming in at 6 pounds. I don’t even want to stand by it much less shoot it.

OP,

I bought a Montana Rifle Company Seven Continents Rifle in .338 Lapua with Nilgai in mind and have been happy with it. The MRC is light as .338 Lapuas go, right at 10# with a Nightforce 2.5-10x42, which is light enough to use like a traditional hunting rifle, yet heavy enough to effectively soak up recoil. Their muzzle brake is very effective. A very nice load is the 225 grain Barnes TTSX at 3080 fps and the rifle is actually fun to shoot with that load. While the bc is lower than match bullets, the 225 TTSX running that fast only needs 25 - 27 MOA at 1,000 fwiw. Note that correction is less than most 6.5 Creedmoor loads with the 143 ELD.

The recoil is very tolerable and I do not like heavy recoiling rifles. .338 Win Mags typically are in 7 - 8# rifles, do not have decent brakes or no brake at all and the few I tried were rather unpleasant to shoot. .338 RUM, .33 Nosler, or .340 Weatherby would be the others to consider in my view. The .338 RUM is easy to make run well and a trued up R700 can be put together for a reasonable price. However, brass and ammo availability can be seasonal only for the RUM. The .338 Lapua has the best ammo options at this point and Lapua brass is always available, which is why I went with the .338 Lapua.

The only thing I do not care for on my MRC is the 26” barrel, which likely will be chopped back to 24” plus the brake.

For a .375, look at the .375 Ruger, which is gaining ground on the H&H.

another vote for .338 Lapua, I shoot / own 3 Lapua (SAKO TRG-42 and 2 Cadex CDX-33 )

recoil is non issue if you put a brake on it

Can you tell me more about this caliber? 30-06 parent case? Velocity? Custom dies only?

270 parent case (longer neck than 30-06) necked up to 338 with shoulder pushed forward and improved to 40 degrees.

H20 capacity of 77-79 gr depending on brand of brass. Think 338-06ai with a couple extra grains of powder.

My load is a Rocky Mountain ULD 250 gr — 58 gr of Varget gives me 2700 on the nose. Most guys are getting 2800+ with the 250 Berger and R17 or Win 760

Lots of info on the Sherman line of wildcats on longrangehunting.com and snipers hide.

270 case with fire forming load on left. Fully formed case on right

Interesting. My buddy just dropped a couple rifles off with Tony today and he (Tony) mentioned this cartridge to him. I told my buddy I had literally just read about this an hour ago from this post. Seems there is some good horsepower here. Tony didnt mention why this was a pain in the rear, but he did mention that it was. Is there any particular reason why so? Can the dies be purchased off the shelf?

Ha! The chambering wasn’t any different than anything else. Rented reamer from Rich Sherman. Who sells the dies on his site.

But.... I had the hairbrained scheme of converting my old 1980s tang safety ruger originally chambered in 270.

One of the drawbacks of the ruger action is the limitations it puts on OAL due to the short (3.40”) mag well. To allow a longer OAL to feed, I lengthened my action posteriorly with a Wyatt’s cut (which included milling away the center floor plate screw). I fabricated an extended mag box from two factory boxes spliced/welded together. The bolt stop was moved posteriorly about 0.25” by tapping/drilling a new retaining screw hole and the window for the stop was enlarged. I am now able to feed rounds up to 3.600.




I wanted to install a pic rail but those actions are investment cast steel and HARD! Tony broke multiple bits trying to drill and tap the receiver. We ultimately bailed on the rail.

You're onto something here, Red. Will the loaded round fit a Tikka AI mag with your bottom metal?

Beautiful rifle. What was the blank and contour on that? #5 Bartelin?

Do you think it would be an easier install on say a standard Savage or Remington or Tikka action?

My OAL @ 0.015” off the lands with that bullet is 3.530. I think the OAL with a 250 Berger is like 3.575. Max you can get on a tikka with our DBM is 3.50 so you’d have to give up a little on case capacity or run a highly compresssed load. At 58 gr Varget I was 102% filled but with a drop tube it did pack down and leave a little room

Rich Sherman also has a line of short mag cartridges. The 338 Sherman Short Mag is a tough faster than the long action version and the OAL isn’t a concern

Charlie , you’d have no concerns with savage or Rem as long as you can have a mag box of 3.6 — tikka as above


Build Specifics
* Action: Ruger M77 tang safety
* Caliber: 338 Sherman (LA)
* Original wood stock (refinished)
* Pillar and full length bedded
* Benchmark light palma 1:9.4 finished at 24”
* APA Little Bastard brake
* Factory trigger reworked
* Cerakote midnight blue

I bet a shorter hunting bullet like a 200 Accubond would work fine if I loaded to max mag length. Have you tried any light bullets?

ITRDM, for deep penetration on the nilgai you’d might want to consider a mono like the 185 or 220 Barnes TTSX — you could push those hard at 2900 (210 gr) and over 3000 (185 gr). Also a 225 or 250 Swift A Frame. Those and the Accubonds are a lot shorter and OAL wouldn’t be an issue.

Only other bullets I shot were 225 sst for fire forming. It shot those pretty dang good too.

Thank you for all the info. That's some good shooting.

I think I am going to order a 338 blank now. lol Thanks for the post Red. One of the few things that piques my interest these days.

let me know if you guys have any other questions. This was my first wildcat and it was a bit of a learning curve but a really fun project.

I will say that this thing is an absolute joy to shoot. Maybe my favorite. With the break, recoil is more of a shove than a jolt and close to magnum performance in a standard long action case with less powder.

Something is not making sense with those numbers within any sane pressure limits.

58 grains of powder at 102% capacity is virtually identical to a .338-06.

The .338 Win Mag pushes a 210 TTSX at 2900 at the top end for that cartridge using 10 grains more of powder (using your 58 gr of Varget vs. 68 - 70 for the .338 Win Mag.)

Has anyone actually submitted some loads for real pressure testing?

Where he will be hunting in South Texas, temps and the 90's are common even in winter and hitting 100+ in March. I was shooting culls two weeks ago in a T-shirt with temps over 90 in early January.

Pushing a case to the ragged edge is not safe and at a minimum a way to lock up a bolt in hot weather.

For more speed move to a bigger case rather than pushing high pressures in a small case.

It is far safer to load a bigger .338 case with a lighter load for the same velocity or even higher.

My buddy was running a 7 rem mag at the same speed as my 7 saum using at 12 grains more powder. I guess that's what they mean by case efficiency.

58 grains of powder is the same as a .338-06, which is not capable of 2900 fps with a 210 TTSX, unless perhaps is a longer barrel, say 26" - 28", which is not handy in the brush.

Hard to see what is different or magic about the Sherman compared to a .338-06 other than it is AI'd, which might add a few grains of capacity at most.

That velocity with the 210 is looking like a flashing warning light to me, especially for hunting in a very hot environment.

I’m not aware of anyone who has done any real pressure test. And yes, your point is well taken. This is a hot load. I don’t have my QL numbers on my phone for Varget, but the theoretical pressures were right around 65k IIRC. Brass has held up and not shown any pressure signs at that charge. Load was worked up at 100F.

RS,

what is the barrel length?

And just to keep things straight, the .338-06 is a very good cartridge. My only concern is pushing the limit to the very edge of pressure limits, which sometimes might be acceptable in a competition setting, but rarely prudent in field conditions.

eta - I just pulled the Barnes manual off the shelf to look at .338-06 load data, and they also list data for the .338 Scovill, which is the .338-06 AI. They are topping out around 2800 with a 24” barrel. So maybe with 2” - 3” extra barrel length and a “hot” load 2900 is within reach, but it is pushing the outer limits for the case size.

Nice shooting RS.

To clarify and for what it’s worth, the numbers I threw out for the 210 etc were just guesstimates. I haven’t shot any of those or ran them thru QL. Only load dev I did was fireforming with 225 sst using middle of the road charge for 338-06 and then shot for groups/OCW with ROcky Mountain 250 over both mangetospeed and LabRadar starting low and going slow with Varget and RL-16 using QL as a reference

The RL-16 data correlated with what I found with Varget — No pressure signs at theoretical max of around 65k and had close to predicted velocity of 2650-2700.

24” barrel.

The pic above is QL table for RL-16.

Red has nothing to prove. There is no reason. The only reason he published data is because I asked him to.

As an example look up factory loads in 6.5 creed vs 260. 260 has a lot more case capacity but factory loads are slower than in the creed.

Case efficiency is key and I think red is onto something.

Once I started playing with QL, I was astonished at the effect that case capacity and seating depth has on pressures. Data (pressure, velocity, etc) predicted by QL for the 338-06 is significantly different that the 338 Sherman (extrapolating using the .338-270 HGT as the case).

Jeffbird brought up several good points on what constitutes a safe load and reasons not to be on the ragged edge.

Just look at the case vs 338-06. It looks apparently different. There is an efficiency difference there like a 223 ackley can almost duplicate 22-250 with just a shoulder bump. 284 shehane is another cartridge that, just from a shoulder bump turns into a completely different animal. Again, 6.5 creed is the best consumer example off this.

100% agree.

I'm amazed at how efficient my .223 A.I. is. It is almost making .22-250 ballistics with nearly a third less powder. Red's wildcat is along the same lines.

CSD,

We are just discussing load info. Concur no one has to prove anything. I am just trying to make sure someone does not get hurt with data from a public forum. Red obviously is very experienced and knows what to watch to stay out of the danger zone, but many here do not.

The case design looks like a .338-06 AI variant to my eye. .338-06 and variants have been around for as long as I have been loading, which is more than a few years. It is an excellent cartridge and should be more popular.

However, there is no way a .338-06 AI can keep up with a .338 Win Mag with 210 to 250’s. .338 Win Mag is really dragging tail with 225 - 250’s, which is where stepping up to the Weatherby, RUM, or Lapua can push the bullet so much faster without pushing the boundaries of safe pressure.

6.5 Swede data specifically is held to low pressures due to the many old rifles in the market. In a modern rifle, 6.5 Swede can outrun the .260 and the 6.5 CM. A .264 Win Mag with its old design will out run all of them just because it has more powder.

A few years ago, a Nilgai guide and I chrono’d several loads he was using for Nilgai. His favorite load was a max power .338 Win Mag with 250 Partition in Ruger M77. The chrono showed it was barely topping 2500, which surprised him quite a bit, but it was safely within its limit in the heat. fwiw - he personally used a .375 H&H or .338 Win Mag.

There is no magic in AI’ing a case. It adds more powder. Adding more powder adds more powder, nothing else. I’ve not worked with .22’s, so will not comment, but I have worked with the .338 Barnes bullets, and other .338 loads worked up by men guiding for Nilgai, which is why I weighed in. Again, I am not being critical of Red, his cartridge design looks nice, just trying to make sure no one is bitten by their rifle.

I haven't seen the 338 Norma Mag mentioned. Seems like a pretty good one for a build.

Fits in a standard long action and duplicates the Lapua. Originally designed to shoot 300 SMKs if my memory serves.

I respectfully disagree, Jeff.

The A.I. body and shoulder makes for good fuel mileage. It makes the ppwder charge do more with less.

.22-250, 75 gr A-Max, 34.0 gr H-Varget, 24" barrel, 1:8 twist, 3200 fps MV

.223 A.I., 80 gr ELD-M, 26.4 gr IMR-8208, 24" barrel, 1:7.7 twost, 3075 fps MV

Way less powder in the .223 A.I., same barrel length, and right on the heels of the .22-250 that is loaded with a much higher percentage of charge. The A.I. design is more efficient.

7mm-08, 24" barrel, 162 ELD-X, 2700 fps MV
7mm-08 A.I. 24" barrel, 162 ELD-X, 2820 fps MV, with only 1.8 gr more powder.

Red's cartridge is no different, it is doing more with less, getting good fuel mileage. He called me back when we were 95° every day last summer, and we talked about some powder options. I reminded him to absolutely test this in hot weather, even though we are using temp stable powders. He found a winner the next afternoon, and of course it was hot weather.

While it is a comparison it uses different powders different bullets and a short barreled 22-250. No telling what is the limiting factor.

24" is a short barrel? No it is not.

Yes different powders, but that is still a major difference in powder charges.

Look at the 7mm-08 and 7mm-08 A.I. since you are failing to grasp the concept. Those are on the same powder.

Again I didn't fail to grasp anything. You gave a lame azz comparison

Yeah, OK.

Please, feel free to share your A.I. cartridge experience.

FJG,

AI’ing obviously can increase velocity as it is adding powder, but adding 2 or 3 grains in an AI’d case cannot produce the same velocity as a case using 10 grains more, much less cases using 20 - 30 or more grains.

Your 7-08 AI for example is still 300 - 400 fps slower than a 7 WSM with the same 24” barrel and 162 Amax. I used to run them at 3100 fps and took them to over 3200 fps in 24” barrels. They starting shedding jackets at that velocity so dropped back to 3100. A .280 AI cannot match that either for a closer comparison.

AI can add some extra performance, but not as much as moving up to a bigger category of case.

Again, Red’s design looks good assuming it feeds reliably, but a full power .338 Win Mag will be faster and a .338 Lapua will outpace it by 300 - 400 fps with the same bullet.

To illustrate my mindset on loads, I run my .308’s with a 175 and 43.5 Varget, which is below max. If I want more velocity, the .300 Win Mag comes out and it is loaded below max too. If more muscle is still needed, then it’s time to take the .338 Lapua out, again loaded with a full power load, but not max.

My loads are well below max in the worst summer heat, so they stay safe year round. Where I hunt and shoot, it was 34 degrees last week and 92 the day before. In summer temps go over 110. My loads need to work and be safe year round in all of those conditions. Where ITRDM will be hunting Nilgai can be similar. Working up loads in 100+ in the shade is still hard to account for a rifle and ammo sitting in the sun and baking. I read somewhere that temps inside a case can be over 140 in intense direct sun, much as the interior of a car can heat up very high in the summer.

So, my comments are made from that perspective of trying to produce heavy hitting rounds, but not on the margins pressure wise.

Again, Red’s design looks neat, especially for a competition round where high round count days would be wearing on the shooter with a big cartridge.

Your suggestion to him to make his 26 Nosler a .33 Nosler seems like the best proposal so far unless he just wants a new rifle.

Perhaps I should have said I respectfully disagree lol then maybe you wouldn't have started out with the insinuation I needed help to tie my shoes this morning, oh wait Im wearing boots lol.

If the AI and standard 7mm08 have the same pressure limit the max potential difference between the two could be calculated based on the increased volume of the AI, but im not sure I could apply the physics to get the change in velocity that would result. I do not think your sample size is large enough to be statistically significant. I guess im just on the other side of the coin from you. Im glad it works for you and I don't doubt it is an improvement. I think the water gets muddied when the improvements gets a decisive number attached to it.

All the best I hope you have a wonderful day. I am only trying to "respectfully" suggest your comparisons aren't exactly clinical or potentially statistically significant due to sample size and differences in testing.

Jeff, I think what you're saying is there is no replacement for displacement. And I agree. My 7 Rem Mag is much stouter than my 7mm-08 and 7mm-08 A.I. But lets add the 28 Nosler. It fits in the same action, with same bolt face as the 7 Rem Mag, 7 STW, 7-300, ect. Nosler reallly did good with their new cartridges. They got the case geometry right, and it makes for efficient burn. That's all I'm saying.

I worked up a load for a friend's 28 Nosler, with 195's in August. Inwas so happy I had hot weather to do this in (not happy about the mirage though). I was expecting north of 2900 fps, and would've been more than pleased with it. I ended up at 3050 fps MV shooting the best, and it was barely compressed. That's impressive for that cartridge, in my book.

Was curious so I went back and looked. Actual data for my 338-06

50.7 grains of Varget-225 Interbond-19” barrel- 2580 FPS

That load is not close to max but did everything I wanted.

Just an example of what the 06 can and cannot do with a short barrel. The barrel has since been cut to 17” and threaded but has not been shot since.

.22-250 is not an overbore, nor is .223 A.I.

"Little statistical value". My 7mm-08 and 7mm-08 A.I. is data from 10 rifles, I've loaded for, and ran out to 800 yards, 20°F to 110°F.

You disagreeing on the capability of the 7mm-08 A.I. is literally calling me a liar. And you have ZERO basis to do so. What I say it will do, it will do. And you continue to look more and more foolish since you have NEVER loaded or shot one. That's what pisses me off about you. You argue about something you have no experience with with someone that has a whole lot of experience with it. I'm wanting a S&W 686 right now. There are members here, I might not always get along with, but I know they know that pistol well. So, if they offer advice, I'm going to sit down, shut up, and pay attention. You should try it.

First I ever heard the 22-250 wasn't overbore.

You and Gary, as far as I know, both compared velocity from a fire forming load to velocity from a formed case, I don't think that is an accurate representation. To me that isn't calling you a liar at all.

I have paid attention and I have learned. Many things from you, I don't deny it. If the above is still what your basing the velocity gain on I do not believe that is a 100% accurate gain. About the only way I can see to get it perfect without a LARGE sample size well in excess of 10 guns(especially if the velocity differences all have the fire forming "error" in them) would be to take a 7mm08 max it out, then cut that chamber to AI and max it out again. Perhaps you have done that, last time we argued about it you hadn't that I know of.

FJG,

we are on the same page, as usual.

p.s. Nosler just announced the 27 Nosler with a 165 ABLR, long overdue. Watch and it likely will be the best seller of the whole lineup in a few years. These are the good old days.

Have a good one.

Gawd dang!

Straight 7mm-08, 24" barrel, 162 gr 2700 fps MV. Yes

7mm-08 A.I., fire forming, 24" barrel, 162 gr 2700 fps MV, and it takes MORE powder to do it, because chamber pressure is so low do to brass flowing so far.

7mm-08 A.I., 24" barrel, 162 gr, 2800 fps, or more.

^^All of those are real life, not theory.

I think there’s some misunderstanding. The 338 Sherman is significantly different than both the 338-06 and the 338-06ai, which has very little real world advantage over the unimproved 338-06 — maybe only a couple grains different.

The shoulder on the 338 Sherman is moved forward more than 1/8 inch and improved. Case capacity is significantly increased over both the 338-06 and 338-06ai. That allows more powder, and thus velocity, at same safe max pressure. Efficiency.

You can’t stuff enough powder in the 338-06 or 338-06ai to get safely get any where near the same velocity with any bullet without insane pressures. Nor, admittedly, can you upload the 338 Sherman to duplicate the 338 WM — which is what I am NOT trying to do. But it gives a huge bump in performance over the 338-06.

Red, do you have a 338-06 case laying around that you could set next to the Sherman case and snap a pic? To my eyes, when I first saw the Sherman, I said to myself "Thats a weird looking case", hence the reason I inquired about the external ballistics. I didn't mean to cause such a ruckus, and I surely didn't/dont think you are posting up BS numbers. While I do not have Quickload, I have a friend that has it who has run a bunch of hypotheticals for me while I was doing load dev. I think its an excellent program for experimentation without the risk of sending a bolt through your face.

I see the genius in the Sherman, thats why I was so inquisitive about it.

Since I recently began loading for .260 I realized how much case design can impact performance. I am still working on load dev for it, as I am not quite getting the velocity that I want. As an example, I am running over 6 grains more powder with the 260 using the same bullet as I do in the 6.5 creed and am only getting low 2700fps where as my old 6.5 creed load is 42.1 grains for 2810. Yeah, the 260 does have more case capacity, but is way less efficient at using the powder as Jason mentioned earlier.

Question - How does more case capacity result in more "efficiency"?

You're combining two things into one.

It has more case capacity AND the geometry is more efficient as well.

I provided an example right above your post. You might not have seen it, but no one said case capacity is the same as efficiency.

How do we determine the geometry is more efficient when the case capacity is increased simultaneously?

Once again, I provided an example above with the comparison between 260 Rem and 6.5 Creedmoor. Maybe you missed it again.

I guess what I am getting at is, if you "improve" a case, you cannot get away from increasing capacity. Unless there are 2 cartridges with the same exact case capacity with the exception of a 25 degree shoulder and a 40 degree shoulder, I do not know how to satisfy your question.

A 223 AI probably increases capacity the least while providing serious increases in performance. This was discussed earlier by Jason.

This might be a better example. These cases both shoot the exact same bullet at the exact same speed. The one on the left does it with 63 grains of powder. The one on the right needs 74 grains to do it. Using the exact same powder.

That brings up a good point - the case cannot be improved without increasing case capacity.

For the pic in your post, I understand the intent of emphasizing short/fat compared to traditional long/skinny, however, that particular short/fat is not an "improved" version of the long/skinny. Just a guess here - 7SAUM and 7mm RM?

FPS/grains used. If you have a standard cartridge that gets 3000 fps/60 grs, you get a factor of 50. If you improve the case and now get 3200/62, your efficiency factor is 51.6.

Charlie, what cartridges and bullet weights did you use in the above post? The lighter for caliber bullets used the more I would expect the example to holdup. Heavy for caliber bullets not as much.

I can get into why later, or at least my beliefs on why and there are several things at play

I also tried multiple brands and calibers for fire forming. Here’s what I have pics of

Norma 338-06 A2 Virgin vs fire formed



Hornady 270 Nickel Plated before and after fire forming



Full formed and loaded 338 Sherm

Here's the 338-06 AI. Notice how much longer the neck is versus the Sherman?

^^Great example^^

And yes, you can often determine how many fps one grain of powder makes. I did this with my .223 A.I. Each grain of powder makes more velocity in the better case geometry brass. That's what I meant by "fuel mileage", also know as case geometry efficiency.

The math certainly works out. However, no cartridge names are supplied in the example. Review of the Sierra reloading manual edition 5 reveals mixed results on the few AI cartridges referenced; i.e. 22-250, 250 savage, 257 Roberts, 25-06, 280 and 30-06. All AI versions produce greater max velocity than the standard version - with heavier powder charges - though the mixed results are revealed when comparing the powder charges with the same velocity between the 2 cartridges; some are higher, some are lower. Regardless, the 338 Sherman is an interesting cartridge. Particularly since the shoulder is moved so much further north, using some of the long neck of the parent .270WIN case to increase case capacity. It's seems so simple it's a wonder it was not done before.

RDub270 if you improve a case and use the exact powder and charge as the unimproved it will yield a lower velocity every time I would think due to less pressure. The benefit of improved cases is being able to run the same pressure with more powder.

A more efficient case can obtain the same velocity with less of the same powder. Ie Creed vs .260

Having an improved shoulder and having an efficient case is not always the same thing. Efficiency is about the powder column geometry. Improved simply increases volume.

I pulled all that out of my rear so take it for what it s worth.

It has been done in various forms. Most similar is the 270-338 HGT in 1981 by Troester. Good article on it in Handloader magazine issue 92. — https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/25770631/number-92-wolfe-publishing-company

wp75169 - Agreed, and I appreciate your last line...I really needed the laugh today. Thank you, sir.

Thank you for the link. I noticed the reference to a 270-338 HGT a page or 2 earlier and could find nothing on it.

You didn't ask for an example, you asked how to calculate it. I provided your answer. Now take the books you were reading and plug their math into the formula and see what result you get.

From FJG's example of the 7-08 vs AI, he increased 120fps on 1.8 grs. A typical 7-08 load is ~43-44 grs. Let's say 44. 2700/44=61.36 , 2820/45.8 = 61.57. In this case the AI shows to have increased efficiency.

Here’s some interesting hypothetical QL numbers I just ran...

For the 338 Sherman vs 338 Win Mag shooting the Barnes 210 gr TTSX in a 24 barrel with same 99.8% burn rate of Varget...

To attain the same velocity of 2780 FPS, the Sherm would need 57.87 gr Varget vs 61.60 gr for the 338 win mag. That’s almost 4 gr difference to attain the same velocity.

Incidentally, QL shows the Sherman as mine is configured using my brass with a PMax of 65k would push the 210 gr Barnes TTSX:
Varget — 2825 FPS
RL-16 — 2933 FPS
RL-17 — 2963 FPS

Both are loaded with 180 ELD-M to 3000fps. This is the absolute maximum I can get out of the 7 Rem Mag, but I have more headroom in the 7 SAUM and have pushed the same bullet to 3200.

On a side note Red, how does the nickel case appear to be holding up to the forming change?

I use nickel on my Ruger Only 45 Colt loads so they never accidentally get loaded into a lesser chamber. Easy to tell them apart. I’ve always heard it’s brittle, but i use a heavy factory crimp and never had any issues.

I love the nickel brass. This is brass I got from pulling the 270 bullets from Hornady Outfitter ammo. It seems much more consistent in weight from case to case than Win or federal. Seems to hold up better to firing them other nickel cases I have used in past for other calibers — no loose primer pockets after 3-4 firings. Haven’t had any problems with flaking with firing and resizing.

Only issue I had was that when necking up with a tapered expander button (even with 2 steps 30 cal then .338) in the sizing die, I did split 1 out of 5 of the necks. Once I switched to the Sinclair expander mandrel i didn’t have that prob. What’s also nice about the mandrel sis they are sized 0.002” smaller than caliber so they create very uniform neck tension. I first FL size with a bushing to give > .003 tension then run them back over the mandrel to give the 0.002 neck tension. I don’t neck turn, so this really helps push the ununiform neck thickness to the outside and rather than the inside that occurs with the bushings. Once I started doing this I saw my groups go for 1/2 moa to 1/4-1/8.

Impressive. I had trouble with the 338-06 until I found a good supply of once fired 35 whelen. I totally trashed an expander on a 30-06 case when I started. Had I been more patient I could have saved it. Fortunately it’s a 3 die set so I pulled the expander out of the neck die.

I think a 338 win mag is a handy rifle to have in the arsenal. I would look for a good used Tikka m695 or any other brand you like. It’s minimum and would perform well with 225 grain Barnes TSX

My primary elk gun is a .338 win Mag. I've killed several elk with it and no tracking is necessary. It's a Ruger M77 tang safety I purchased new in 1984 I upgraded to a B&C fiber stock, put a good pad on it, trigger job and break. Shoots very accurate for a big bore gun and pleasant to shoot. Best bullet I've found is a Nosler Accubond .225 gr8.
Good Luck