Savage or Tikka Creedmoor - Same results

Let me begin by saying this post IS NOT intended to tout or bash either the Savage or Tikka brand, but to share an interesting observation that might save new Creedmoor owners some time and money.

Some of you probably remember my earlier post concerning the wide range of results I was getting with new Savage Model 110 6.5 Creedmoor bolt-action using different brands of ammo. After getting solid results with the load that's most often suggested for the 6.5 Creedmoor (Hornady 143-grain ELD-X), the results were much different once I tried what has always been my "go to" loads, Remington CorLokt and Federal Fusion. It's wasn't that the Remington and Federal loads didn't shoot decent groups, but that the center POI for the individual groups were nowhere close to those created by the Hornday loads.

It just so happened I was approached by a guy at the range today who had run across the same problem with his Tikka. He had won the Tikka in a drawing and had spent quite a bit of money on it, adding a muzzle break and two-stage trigger to make it a better match for his teenage daughter. He asked me what I was shooting and I told him a Creedmoor. I soon learned that rather than starting with the suggested Hornady loads as I did, he first tried CorLokts because he too had always found them to provide great performance with other rifles in the past. I explained to him the challenge that I had in finding other loads my Savage liked and how it produced groups with a center POI that was nowhere close to that of the Hornady. He confided with me that his Tikka wouldn't even group the Corelokts at all and that he was there to try the ELD-X loads before buying a new scope and rings in an attempt to remedy the problem. Needless to say, I was encouraged by his results and felt sure I could help him before we went and spent another dime on a scope or ammo.

After telling him of my experience with the Creedmoor, I gave him one of my Winchester 125-grain XP loads that I had found through trial and error to be great shooters in my rifle. His Tikka produced a hole in pretty much the middle of the group produced earlier with the Hornady loads.

So just to summarize, if you're considering adding a 6.5 Creedmoor to your collection, I would suggest you go with the Hornady 143-grain ELD-X loads if you want to shoot what everyone recommends for the caliber. If you're someone who enjoys looking for other loads that shoot well in a given rifle, be careful with the Creedmoor because it doesn't seem to be as forgiving as other calibers. For that reason, some might be better off steering away from the Creedmoor. Finally, if you're looking for a 6.5 Creedmoor load that's lighter on your wallet, try the Winchester 125-grain XP.

Maybe you just found a rifle that shoots well enough to see the difference. I’ve saw the exact same ammo but different lot #s group to different POI with the same POA. Up to 6” different. That is why it’s important to practice with the ammo you’re going to hunt with.

Yes, that's a good point. Poor quality control at the factory can result in significant performance differences. I'm sure there are guys who never take a new box of ammo to the woods until they've shot a least one round from it.

The main problem I'm seeing on the Hornady factory 143 ammo is the lower velocity. With the tougher bullet and lower speeds, the 143 ELD-X is not opening up and ice picking through animals. So, your choice.

Also, when you switch bullets, especially different brands of ammo and style of bullet, you will often have a different point of impact (POI). And replacing a scope because a certain brand of ammo didn't shoot well or to the same POI doesn't make any sense. What I find entertaining is trying to find "good" ammo out of the cheapest ammo options you can find. You spend money on trying all the cheap stuff.

The Creedmoor is not a finicky round and will shoot VERY well with a good match grade round and when it's loaded correctly.

Ive had the same bullet same weight same manufacturer move several inches just from one lot# to the next. No surprise if different weight and brand don't group together. While I have had them group together its more of a surprise when they do than when they don't.

Point of impact shift has zero to do with the 6.5 Creedmoor or any other cartridge.

You could have been shooting a 1952 invented .308 Win in the exact same pair of rifles and got the exact same results.

You learned something amout mass produced rifle ammunition, not a specific cartridge and not a specific brand of mass produced rifle.

Any by the way, Core-Lokts are historically some of the worst shooting ammo in the history of American ammunition, and it has been that way for a decade or two.

Remington CoreLokts have been around a long time and have a long-standing reputation for being an excellent shooter. It would only make sense that hunters who believe in the load's performance would reach for them first when trying out a new rifle.

Little wonder the same questionable comments are still being made about the performance of Remington firearms.

I'm not understanding why you are trying to get a rifle to shoot different brands of ammo to the same point of impact. That is something that most rifles will not do. I would expect a change in velocity, bullet weight, bullet design, etc to change the POI in relation to the POA. I would be surprised if it didn't.

I don't know anything about Corelokt's, but expecting one rifle to shoot ammo the same as another rifle is a little unreasonable. And trying to compare one tikka to one savage and make inferences to the brands as a whole is difficult as well. That's just not how it works.

My Tikka CTR doesn't shoot 143 ELD-X well, by my standards. Groups were 1.5"-2" pretty consistently. That doesn't make Tikka bad if a single Savage shoots it better. My CTR will put 140 ELD-M inside .75" all day long and inside .5" about 30%-40% of the time. It will put my handloaded 140 ELD-M inside .5" closer to 80% of the time, and with much more velocity. I'm sure I could find a hunting load that shot well if I was much of a hunter, but I never bothered with it because the 140 ELD-M does everything I need it to.

With all that being said, trying to squeeze premium accuracy out of factory ammo is just a fool's errand. Chad told me this years ago and I didn't fully trust him at the time. Thousands of dollars later, I realized he was right and I got him to load me up some good stuff and eventually started rolling my own. It's the only way to guarantee any real kind of consistency.

I know nothing about Corelokt, but Remington firearms has earned whatever criticism they get for their poor quality. My buddy at work bought a new 870 and it locked shut on him after the first shot - ruined his whole hunting trip that he'd traveled out of state for. Know another guy who had a new Rem 700 and couldn't make it shoot anything decent. I talked him through a bunch of options for different reloading techniques and how to tweak different things to improve it, and it just never would shoot. He borrowed my Tikka for a weekend and sold his 700 the next week. They're just selling junk with a nostalgic name on it. I'm sorry if that rubs some folks the wrong way, but I have too much experience to the contrary, and it has nothing to do with a personal dislike of the company.

Wow, ok! There are shooters and there are precision shooters who know the difference. If you think Rem CoreLokts is precision ammo, there's no point of even replying to anything else you ever post. I'm speechless! All I can say is just wow! GLTY!

Here is my limited experience with Remington as of late, the last two rifles I bought were weatherby vanguard and a savage 114. My brother bought a rem 700 long range in 30-06 and a box of rem 180 grain yellow and green box corelocks to get it on paper. It shoots well, under MOA with the factory ammo.

I understand that. However, my experience with the Creedmoor relative to the other calibers that I own and shoot is that it's less forgiving in that regard. I own rifles made my Winchester, Remington, Savage, Weatherby, Marlin, and Henry and they all shoot CoreLokts very well.

I have found the Remington .270 to be the most forgiving caliber. I own two of them and they both shoot every brand of ammo I've ever tried very well.

You said the Needmoor shoots everything well. Just to different POI. Which is normal. I’m confused at what the problem is.

Remington CoreLokts have probably killed more deer than anything else but they are known for shooting like garbage. Then again, historically most hunters just wanted their 30-06 to be "pie plate" accurate and then they were ready to kill a deer. Times have changed and Remington Ammo still sucks.

The same center POI for each group to fall within the same 6-inch circle at 100 yards is what I've found to be achievable with different brands of ammo when shooting the .270, 25-06, .243, and 30-30.

As a comparison, shown below is a target that includes three separate groups (Winchester, Remington, and Federal) made with my Creedmoor. The two holes near the center of the target were made with Winchester XP's.

Don't take me wrong gents, I've enjoyed shooting and look forward to taking wild game with my Creedmoor, even if it likes its steak cooked a certain way and so long as doesn't always have to be prime rib.

You need to throw out the groups separated from each other. Only look at how small the group is.

If you find one type of ammo that shoots very tight, but POI does not match POA, that is what scope adjustments are for.

I've done load development for hundreds of rifles, some of them took a full day for me to find the perfect ammo recipe. Maybe my best powder charge shot 1/4 MOA, but was high and right. Ok, when I find the winning load I now ZERO THE SCOPE TO THE LOAD

It is irrelevant the POI of one test load to another.

Chad, what's the minimum velocity you're seeing for the ELD-X to work correctly? I was thinking about working up some reduced recoil loads and using that 143 ELD-X, which is my current go to hunting bullet.

I would argue that quality control has nothing to do with different POI with different lot #’s of the same ammo.

Guys, I'm having trouble with my 7-08. When I shoot my 162 EldM's I hit the bulls-eye every time. But when i switch to 140 Accubonds my shots are all high a couple of inch's. I'm thinking about swapping out scopes and going MOA instead of MIL to see if that helps. If that doesn't work I think I might change from a suppressor and put on a new muzzle brake. Thoughts?


I'm just kidding BTW!

As fast as you can push it. That would not be the bullet I would use for a reduced load in the 6.5 CM. The factory ammo is already a somewhat reduced load. My Speedmoor ammo (running a 143 at 2855 fps) has been showing good expansion. On some of the shorter barrels and factory ammo (that runs much slower than the 2700 fps), that bullet is having problems opening up. I would go to a softer lead core bullet for easier expansion, something like a 120 grain or similar. The 2 best bullets I've seen in the 6.5 Grendel (slower speeds than a CM), the 120 grain Speed Gold Dot (bonded bullet) and the 130 grain ELD-M or 130 Berger Hybrid has shown good expansion. Those would be good as a reduced load for the CM.

We chronographed some factory 6.5 PRC ammo in a 24" barrel and the 143's were running 2850 fps. I laughed, because I'm getting that in my Speedmoor ammo with the same bullet and barrel length in a CM.

I can respect your comments because I'm definitely not an expert but just an average shooter. Still, running across another Creedmoor owner who noticed the same unique performance characteristics makes me wonder if the Creedmoor requires a specific powder formulation that produces an optimum burn rate. Not sure but maybe different manufacturers use slightly different types of powder in their cartridges that produce performance differences. Also, something that IMO really stands out with the Creedmoor is its geometry, being much longer relative to its width than what you see with other calibers. I have to wonder if a bullet with such a unique profile must have a more specific explosion behind it to achieve optimum ballistic performance. I mean, we already know the bullet was pretty much a custom design that bullet and firearm manufacturers took and ran with. Common sense would seem to dictate that given all the variables at play, it wouldn't be unusual for performance differences would not rear their naughty head until years later.

In addition to being picky about having different loads group together (which you should not be expecting anyhow), your 2 shot groups are not giving you real group expectations. The group with the Winchester XP loads may open way up with a few more shots, and the Hornady loads may stay the same size. IMO, you did not take enough shots to really establish a group.

Dan I don’t mean to be ugly but are you drinking and posting today? It’s ok, I do it too, I just want to understand. I was amazed many years ago at the bullets available for 6.5. The high SD has nothing to do with it being a Creedmoor.
This is not a radical new program. 130 years ago it was innovative.

"Unique performance" just shows to me the other options of ammo are not very good.

"Specific powder formulation" is not an uncommon thing for any cartridge. 6.5 Creedmoor does best on H-4350. .308 Win and 7mm-08 bolt action often do best on H-Varget. Two powders listed, three cartridges and most of those rifles are going to shoot X bullet, with Y powder between a certain area of powder charge, and it isn't a very large area. Basically specific powder formulation exists for all rifle cartridges. Meaning certain loads almost always work.

Geometry being much longer. You must be talking about the bullet and not the brass. The 140, 143, 147 gr 6.5mm bullets are long, high BC bullets. Long and skinny makes for high BC. Yet they exist in any caliber. .224" 80 gr, are long, 6mm 115 gr are long, 7mm 162 gr are long, 30 cal 225 gr are long. So it isn't special to the 6.5 Creedmoor.

Achieve optimal ballistic performance comes with proper twist rate for bullet length, proper powder, and proper powder charge. The case geometry was built to make that powder/ charge more efficient than what the open market had at the time.

No, the bullet wasn't a "custom design" it is a long, Boattail high BC bullet. They were around long before the 6.5 Creedmoor was invented in 2007. The case design was made to run that bullet in a shorter case, making a shorter O.A.L than the .260 Rem, giving room in the mag.

Common sense and all the variables at play. Go back to the above. Right twist, right powder, right charge, and it'll shoot well. That is the nature of the 6.5 Creedmoor, they are easy to make shoot well. Give me one with a 140 to 143 gr bullet, and I only have to test between 42.0 gr and 43.0 gr. It will come to life somewhere in there. Federal and Remington just screwed it up, in this case.

The target I shared earlier is one that I shot last week. Today my intention was to go back today and see if I could duplicate the results with a clean, cold bore, this time only using the Winchester XP's. Being wet, muddy, and raining, I didn't want to go and retrieve the targets, but can assure you the XP's were one inch or better (which is good for me given my shooting skills) after several three-shot groups. I'm sure they might have even gotten tighter with additional fouling and/or shots made by a better shooter. I've always followed the commonly recommended barrel break-in steps with all my rifles and found the load that never produces a flyer with a clean, cold bore. Of course we can argue the need to break in a barrel some other time.

Again, I would suggest anyone who owns a 6.5 Creedmoor that's looking for a more economical load try the 125-grain Winchester XP's. My Savage really seems to love them and I know of at least one Tikka that does as well. And you probably won't even need to change your scope settings from what you've been using for the much higher-priced Hornady loads.

Yeah.

If you must shoot factory ammo, try a few, pick the best one and go with it. If you really want the good stuff, reload or get Chad to do it for you. I haven’t shot a factory load in a rifle of mine in at least 35 years.

Or, you could drive over my way, bring a pound or two of H4350, brass and bullets of your choice, and we’ll work you up a load, clean the rifle and have a beer or 3.

My shooting custom loads would equate to my driving an expensive sports car. I don't shoot or drive well enough to get such exceptional performance.

Somebody always think they know best when they don't even do reloads for themselves. It's amazing how much they spout off and still don't know what they are talking about.

Again, drive 140 miles to my place and we’ll get you set up. I used to work in the Woodlands, so I know how far it is there to here. I have all the gear and a 100 yard range and a good shooting bench and sand bags. Personally, for reloads, I recommend the 120 gr Nosler BTs or the 120 gr Sierra Pro Hunters. You don’t need a 140 gr bullet for deer and pigs.

Or just buy those Winchester 125 gr rounds, zero the rifle to that and go with it. We all strive for super accuracy, but true precision isn’t necessary for most folks. And I killed a lot of deer back in the day with CoreLokt ammo in my 35 Remington. I have no idea what accuracy you could get from them in your rifle, but MOA or 2 MOA will fill the freezer. It’s just that most of the forum folk, like me, are really after accuracy, and being happy with 2 MOA just isn’t in their DNA.

My Dad hunted with a Ruger 77 Ultralight in 270 and killed an awful lot of deer. He cared not for shooting groups, and he even mixed his ammo from various makers, and he even mixed bullet weights. I used to just shake my head at it. He had an old variable Bushnell scope that you couldn’t turn the variable ring. And he killed a bunch of deer, year after year. It makes a fellow wonder if maybe my focus on precision and practice is that necessary for just hunting at 150 yards or so.

Good gosh.......that's about the most worthless "test" I've ever read.

Is there that much difference in price between the Hornady and Winchester? I thought all the Creedmoor ammo was about $25 a box. When it comes to factory ammo, I like Federal. Even the cheaper Fusions and Blue Box ammo have shot really well for me.

The main thing a good handload or custom ammo does is eliminate the ammo as a variable. The ammo is consistent enough to provide you consistent results from shot to shot. With cheap or low cost ammo, you will 100% get more open groups and/or rounds that do not go where you were aiming. If only shooting 2 shots at 100 yards for a test, that's not much of a test. But the #1 thing that my customers tell me is the confidence in the ammo it provides in their shooting. If they miss, they know it was them and not the ammo. That's huge. It's hard to put a $$ dollar figure on that. But my ammo is about the same as factor ammo is, made with much better components and loaded one at a time with powder charges accurate to within .02 grains. To a shooter who thinks CoreLock ammo is the best, by all means go for it. That's typically not a customer who will recognize the quality difference or does not shoot enough to know what the difference is.

I don't even have the words for this thread.

Even if everything said about Winchester or Core-lokt or whatever is true, it's all subject to change when you get to the next lot of ammo.

You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.

The best price that I’ve found for the Hornady 143-grain ELD-X loads is about $29 a box. That’s about $4 less than Academy’s normal price of roughly $33 a box. You can pick up a box of the Winchester 125-grain XP loads at Academy for about $21 a box.

Next up for tomorrow’s hot debate? Texas Dan will claim the sky is blue.

Ignorance is not knowing something.

Stupidity is not taking advice from people that know more than you, and arguing with them.

I look forward to the debate sir.

They sky here is very not blue this morning.

Hey its a good post we can be friends on this one lol

To give this thread more value, I will be reassembling my reloading table today in the room that’s officially “my room”. If all goes well I’ll have some 7-08 turned out today for testing tomorrow. Or I will put together a few hundred 45 Colt. I’m down to 5.

Jealous! Very Jealous!

My "My room" is shared with the water heater, dog, washer and dryer... but other than that dag nabit, its MINE!

Here's a 5 shot group from my 6.5 Creedmoor at 100 yards, my (mild) reloads using Hornaday brass and 143 gr. ELD-X's. Rifle is Henry Long Ranger 5 for 5 Bang-Flops.

Yep. This thread is painful to read. Good lordy, some people will just never get it.