Texas Hunting Forum

Creedmoor Tune-Up

Posted By: DH3

Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/18/18 09:25 AM

Still working on a load for my Savage 6.5 Creedmoor. This one is 40.0 grains of H4350 W/ Hornaday 143 grain ELDX bullets. Shot at 10:30 in 7 ring was a fouling shot after a bore clean with bore snake.


Posted By: J.G.

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/18/18 11:36 AM

Need way more powder charge. 42.0 to 43.0 gr.

And if you want to clean it, use a good solvent and patches.
Posted By: DH3

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/18/18 12:50 PM

Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Need way more powder charge. 42.0 to 43.0 gr.

And if you want to clean it, use a good solvent and patches.

You need to know that I have tried "Way more powder" with little success. As I reduce the load, I see an improvement (reduction) in group size. Where I hunt ( my ranch) the longest shot that I have to take is 143 yards so I am not concerned about the slightly reduced velocity.
FWIW, 143 grains of H4350 is bordering on a max load and even if I used it, I would not post that advice for liability reasons.
A good bore snake with some Kroil cleans a barrel to my satisfaction.
Posted By: Pig_Popper

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/18/18 12:58 PM

Originally Posted By: DH3
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Need way more powder charge. 42.0 to 43.0 gr.

And if you want to clean it, use a good solvent and patches.


FWIW, 143 grains of H4350 is bordering on a max load and even if I used it, I would not post that advice for liability reasons.



What reloading guide listed 143 grs as a max load ???

lol35
Posted By: DH3

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/18/18 01:21 PM

http://load-data.nosler.com/wp-content/u....1yem7rsuC4.jpg

How about this one??
Posted By: Jgraider

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/18/18 02:08 PM

DH3, what does your chrono say?
Posted By: J.G.

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/18/18 02:22 PM

Originally Posted By: DH3
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Need way more powder charge. 42.0 to 43.0 gr.

And if you want to clean it, use a good solvent and patches.

You need to know that I have tried "Way more powder" with little success. As I reduce the load, I see an improvement (reduction) in group size. Where I hunt ( my ranch) the longest shot that I have to take is 143 yards so I am not concerned about the slightly reduced velocity.
FWIW, 143 grains of H4350 is bordering on a max load and even if I used it, I would not post that advice for liability reasons.
A good bore snake with some Kroil cleans a barrel to my satisfaction.


I wasn't talking about speed, I was talking about a tighter group.

But since you're putting Kroil in your barrel, that tells me to leave you to your devices.

That is what is causing it to shoot so poorly.
Posted By: J.G.

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/18/18 02:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Pig_Popper
Originally Posted By: DH3
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Need way more powder charge. 42.0 to 43.0 gr.

And if you want to clean it, use a good solvent and patches.


FWIW, 143 grains of H4350 is bordering on a max load and even if I used it, I would not post that advice for liability reasons.



What reloading guide listed 143 grs as a max load ???

lol35


That would be a way hot load in a 375 Chey-Tac. peep
Posted By: Jgraider

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/18/18 02:32 PM

FJG, not sure of your reference to Kroil being "bad" for a barrel? It's the best penetrataing oil on the planet. I use Kroil first (when I decide to clean) to clean carbon first, then I attack copper with Wipe-Out.

Why is Kroil a negative?
Posted By: Pig_Popper

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/18/18 02:36 PM

Midway USA says

“Kano Kroil Penetrating Oil and Bore Cleaning Solvent is the oil that creeps. Kroil is used by the most accuracy-obsessed benchrest shooters to keep their barrels clean. Kroil creeps below the fouling in your barrel, allowing you to knock it out easily with a patch or brush. For best results when working with rusted or frozen gun parts, allow 24 hours for Kroil to penetrate.”

4.9 stars out of 5 with 240+ reviews....
Posted By: garyrapp55

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/18/18 02:36 PM

143 grains? You got a plastic surgeon on speed dial?
Posted By: J.G.

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/18/18 02:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Jgraider
FJG, not sure of your reference to Kroil being "bad" for a barrel? It's the best penetrataing oil on the planet. I use Kroil first (when I decide to clean) to clean carbon first, then I attack copper with Wipe-Out.

Why is Kroil a negative?


Any oil in a barrel is a no-no. Some guys store a rifle for many months with oil in the barrel to prevent rust. Makes total sense. But it had better be removed before shooting the rifle, or the rifle will shoot like crap. Solvent soak, dry patches, until clean. It may take several soaks of solvent to get it out. A barrel needs to be completely free of any solvent, oil, water, anything liquid.
Posted By: Jgraider

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/18/18 02:54 PM

Gotcha, and I agree completely. I assumed everyone shoots with an oil free barrel, hench the fouling shots?
Posted By: J.G.

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/18/18 02:57 PM

I took it to mean he applied Kroil to the bore snake, and the snake through, and shot the rifle.

That's a recipe to turn a sub 1 MOA rifle (which a Savage should be) into a much greater than 1 MOA rifle, which this one is.
Posted By: ChadTRG42

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/18/18 03:25 PM

Originally Posted By: DH3
A good bore snake with some Kroil cleans a barrel to my satisfaction.


Oh, [censored]! No way Jose! I could tell you some nightmares about Kroil! Yes, it is a freakin' awesome heavily penetrating oil. It's like WD-40 on steroids. But it is NOT an item to be used inside a barrel to get consistency in shooting. If you put that crap in a barrel, it will take you MANY MANY MANY (did I say many) rounds to foul that barrel back in before you will have any consistency inside the barrel. You are adding a super slick oil inside the barrel that the bullet slides on. Plus, from round 1 to round 10-20 will have totally different friction inside the barrel. I would clean the snot out of that barrel with a major cleaning agent, and start over. And I'm not even to the powder and load info yet!
Posted By: ChadTRG42

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/18/18 03:27 PM

Here's my famous post about oil in the barrel. Please read it to understand it, and ask me any questions afterwards. Let's address the main elephant in the room first, then get to the fine tune details of the ammo.

http://texashuntingforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4661544/1/Rifle_Cleaning_for_deer_season
Posted By: ImTheReasonDovesMourn

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/18/18 03:29 PM

Ya'll are not going to reason with this guy or teach him anything. He does the same thing on every post. Go back and read his last 10 posts and see what I mean.
Posted By: Jgraider

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/18/18 03:29 PM

I respectfully disagree Chad, as it hasn't been my experience at all, but hey...... 1 fouling shot at most IME, and very often I don't see any difference it "fouler" and the rest of the group. I always use Wipe Out afterwards though, so maybe this has something to do with it. Truth be known, I don't clean my barrels very often anyway, and they're all treated with Dyna Tek Bore Coat.
Posted By: ImTheReasonDovesMourn

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/18/18 03:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Jgraider
I respectfully disagree Chad, as it hasn't been my experience at all, but hey...... 1 fouling shot at most IME, and very often I don't see any difference it "fouler" and the rest of the group. I always use Wipe Out afterwards though, so maybe this has something to do with it. Truth be known, I don't clean my barrels very often anyway, and they're all treated with Dyna Tek Bore Coat.


After cleaning the barrel, my 6.5 Bartlein shoots like sh!+ for 15-20 rounds. Once it's fouled in, it goes back to .3s.
Posted By: ChadTRG42

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/18/18 03:45 PM

If you use Wipe Out after the Kroil, then you are cleaning out the Kroil. The Wipe Out will break down the oils and flush it out. Kroil is very good at cleaning and lubricating steel for protection. It's super slick. But it's not a good product to have inside your barrel for consistency.

I had a good buddy give me some of it to try on my competition rifle. I used it as a cleaner. I cleaned it good after a match. Later on, I wiped it with dry patches, and started shooting my rifle again. The rifle was always a one hole gun at 100. For 10+ rounds I couldn't get it dialed in again for anything. And my velocity numbers were off with high extreme spreads (I chrono everything I shoot). I shot it and shot it, and it finally came around. I spoke to someone else about the Kroil, and they had the same results. I read more about Kroil and realized it is not a good product for inside rifle barrels when shooting for consistency. Yes, it's a great protecting oil. But it's not a product to keep a consistent group or consistent velocity numbers in your rifle. If all you need is a bullet inside of a few inches at 100 yards, it will work. But if you are trying to shrink groups and get good consistency, this product will hold you back from those results. Just my 2cents
Posted By: J.G.

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/18/18 03:50 PM

These are rotated 90°

Factory Tikka barrel, re-chambered for 7mm-08 A.I.
Gunslick bore cleaning solvent, 15 minute soak. 12 passes of dry patches until a clean patch.




Posted By: ChadTRG42

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/18/18 03:56 PM

Now on the powder charges, there is always multiple accuracy nodes to be found with a certain combination of powder and bullet. When Hornady used to load their factory ammo with H4350, they wrote 41.9 grains on the box with a 140 grain. They later reduced it to 41.5 grains. It ran about 2650 fps. At 40.0 grains, you will be about 130 fps slower than that. Probably around 2520 fps. That's pretty slow for a 140 grain out of a CM. But, your brass will last a long time. There is an accuracy node on the higher end where Fireman mentioned, if you want more speed that the CM is capable of.
Posted By: Jgraider

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/18/18 03:57 PM

Very nice, but you cheated.........Tikka.
Posted By: DH3

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/18/18 09:04 PM

If cleaning a barrel is bad, why do benchrest shooters clean their barrels every 10 rounds or so?? Educate the unwashed please...
Posted By: J.G.

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/18/18 11:20 PM

Originally Posted By: DH3
If cleaning a barrel is bad, why do benchrest shooters clean their barrels every 10 rounds or so?? Educate the unwashed please...


They have the time.

I've spent weekends competing, firing 300 rounds for points. If someone played a joke, and cleaned another shooter's barrel when he wasn't looking, the guy that did the cleaning could expect a broken nose over it, possibly.

Point being, clean barrels don't keep shooting well for very long. There's a clean zero, a clean POI for a certain number of shots, then it changes and stabilizes for X number of shots. Talking to Judd (BR shooter) his barrels, and his gunsmith's machining technique is exactly the same as mine. Judd is running a BR stock, and a way different action, that shaves another 1/8 MOA+ off what mine can do. But he's got the time to clean between a relays, I do not.

The barrel crosses a hump getting fouled in, the holds true for a certain number of rounds. That number is load, bullet, powder charge, barrel length specific, and it varies rifle to rifle. The barrel I have that likes to be cleaned the most often is a 7mm-08 A.I. on a button rifled Tikka barrel. It starts to open up around 50 rounds. But I have several cut rifled barrels that keep shooting exactly where I tell them for 200 to 400 rounds, depending on what I listed above.
Posted By: scottfromdallas

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/18/18 11:43 PM

Alright this thread is getting interesting. If a barrel is fouled and shooting great. Any harm in running a dry patch or dry bore snake down the barrel just to get the powder debris out? I always hate putting away a rifle completely dirty but I don't want any POI shift when I take it hunting.
Posted By: J.G.

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/19/18 12:08 AM

Originally Posted By: scottfromdallas
Alright this thread is getting interesting. If a barrel is fouled and shooting great. Any harm in running a dry patch or dry bore snake down the barrel just to get the powder debris out? I always hate putting away a rifle completely dirty but I don't want any POI shift when I take it hunting.


Can if you want, but it would only be for your emotional reasons.

I posted, in November of 2016 my 7 Rem Mag that had sat in the safe, fouled for ten months. I brought it to the range, affixed a scope to the pic rail, bore sighted, then fired one shot. POI was 1.3 Mil left, and .3 Mil low, I dialed those corrections. Shot #2 was tight enough to hit a pencil eraser at 100 yards.

Then I dialed for 400, 500, 600, 700, 800 yards. Center hit on all. Remember, the rifle had been stored fouled for 10 months.

I recommend you keep track of round cound before a barrel starts to shoot poorly, on all you own. Then you will KNOW when to clean, and when to leave it alone.
Posted By: wp75169

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/19/18 12:22 AM

I’ve saw bore snakes mentioned a couple of times. The last one I saw had copper brushes built in. Isn’t that kinda hard on a barrel?
Posted By: scottfromdallas

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/19/18 12:22 AM

Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Originally Posted By: scottfromdallas
Alright this thread is getting interesting. If a barrel is fouled and shooting great. Any harm in running a dry patch or dry bore snake down the barrel just to get the powder debris out? I always hate putting away a rifle completely dirty but I don't want any POI shift when I take it hunting.


Can if you want, but it would only be for your emotional reasons.


LOL. I will just leave it fouled and go to counseling.
Posted By: J.G.

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/19/18 12:27 AM

Originally Posted By: scottfromdallas
Originally Posted By: FiremanJG
Originally Posted By: scottfromdallas
Alright this thread is getting interesting. If a barrel is fouled and shooting great. Any harm in running a dry patch or dry bore snake down the barrel just to get the powder debris out? I always hate putting away a rifle completely dirty but I don't want any POI shift when I take it hunting.


Can if you want, but it would only be for your emotional reasons.


LOL. I will just leave it fouled and go to counseling.


grin
Posted By: J.G.

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/19/18 12:31 AM

Here you go Scott.

Posted By: DH3

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/19/18 01:09 AM

The bore snake I use has an 8" section, up front. That's where I put the Kroil. Next is a 5" section with copper bore brushes. That's used to scrub the bore. Last comes a 2' section that takes out the crud and wipes the bore dry. A couple of fouling shots and it's ready for hunting.
The reason that benchrest shooters clean their bores often is because of time?? Exactly how much time does a deer hunter have before launching a shot downrange at his 10 pointer?
Amazing how bore cleaning affects one discipline but not another??
Posted By: Cleric

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/19/18 01:18 AM

Could be wrong... but benchrest needs higher level of accuracy. So to reduce variations if they always clean and foul before a string they are removing a variable


Hunters and comp shooters generally don’t need that level of accuracy. So they can clean when the barrel gets to a point that it is unacceptable. I generally do this. The only time I clean before the barrel tells me is if I have a big trip/event planned. Then I clean, foul and re confirm zero and FPS with batch of ammo for trip
Posted By: J.G.

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/19/18 01:47 AM

Originally Posted By: Cleric
Could be wrong... but benchrest needs higher level of accuracy. So to reduce variations if they always clean and foul before a string they are removing a variable


Hunters and comp shooters generally don’t need that level of accuracy.


Not exactly.

Last month was the Lone Survivor Foundation PRS Benefit Match. Thursday I cleaned, then fouled until it returned to normal zero, then double checked DOPE out to 800. Friday evening, 250 miles from home, I checked zero. Needed a slight correction. Saturday, off we go, 300 to 1025 yards in 15 to 30 mph winds. 130 rounds fired. Rifle and ammo did fine, my misses were my fault. Sunday we had similar stages, and on one of them, there was a 2.5" plate at 500 yards, and I hit it. By then the rifle had over 200 rounds down it, and we were just starting the morning. But I knew the round count the rifle would hold up before needing a cleaning, so all was well. And no matter what discipline one is shooting, 1/2 MOA is quite precise.
Posted By: RiverRider

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/19/18 02:30 AM

The reason some benchresters clean so frequently is because of some very old ways of thinking that persist to this day. I think some are rethinking it, but you'll still see the guys who are convinced that cleaning constantly is the way to go. Here's an old thread I dug up on benchrest central, it's an interesting read.

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?65528-A-clean-barrel
Posted By: kmon11

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/19/18 03:40 AM

Each rifle can be a beast unto itself on required cleaning frequency. Have some that will go 300 shots or more between cleaning fine while another at 20 rounds it would start spreading them out but I have shot my best groups ever with that rifle from a clean barrel, .125 inch center to center for the best group and several more under .2 at 100 yards. Tiny little groups when you consider that is a 17 Remington running 25gr bullets at 4250fps, it does copper foul quite fast being a factory barrel at those speeds but as long as it shoots that way I am happy with it. That 17 Remington gets loads with CFE223 now and have gone 50+ rounds with good accuracy so powder choice can make a difference.
Posted By: scottfromdallas

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/19/18 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by FiremanJG
Here you go Scott.



clap I'm having flashbacks.

This thread has been informative.
Posted By: DH3

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/19/18 06:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Cleric
Could be wrong... but benchrest needs higher level of accuracy. So to reduce variations if they always clean and foul before a string they are removing a variable


Hunters and comp shooters generally don’t need that level of accuracy. So they can clean when the barrel gets to a point that it is unacceptable. I generally do this. The only time I clean before the barrel tells me is if I have a big trip/event planned. Then I clean, foul and re confirm zero and FPS with batch of ammo for trip


Exactly why should a deer hunter not try to attain the same level of accuracy as a benchrest shooter?
Posted By: Cleric

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/19/18 06:44 PM

Originally Posted By: DH3
Originally Posted By: Cleric
Could be wrong... but benchrest needs higher level of accuracy. So to reduce variations if they always clean and foul before a string they are removing a variable


Hunters and comp shooters generally don’t need that level of accuracy. So they can clean when the barrel gets to a point that it is unacceptable. I generally do this. The only time I clean before the barrel tells me is if I have a big trip/event planned. Then I clean, foul and re confirm zero and FPS with batch of ammo for trip


Exactly why should a deer hunter not try to attain the same level of accuracy as a benchrest shooter?



Money, weight, and time

I would say the majority of texas deer are killed inside 150 yards. As long as you can put a bullet in a 2-3inch group you should be able to kill a deer.

It’s opportunity cost for accuracy. As fireman said earlier benchrest action and stock may get 1/8 Moa more accuracy. In a bench rest competition I would spend the money. But for deer hunting I don’t need. A 400$ 30-30 lever is just fine.


To me hunting in Texas you need 2-3 moa and you can be successful
For general weekend competition 1 Moa
For prs level competition 1/2 moa
For bench it depends on which level and comp you are shooting but could need better then 1/2 to be competitve


Each one may prioritize different needs. For example I don’t think I have ever heard of a prs shooter not having a detachable mag. For hunting you can roll single shot and be fine. The type of scope for one may purpose not be well suited for another purpose.

My only point is you don’t HAVE to have a 1/2 moa gun to hunt. You can certainly use one, but it’s not needed. If I had a lever action gun shooting 1.5 Moa and some money to spend I would Not spend it on a better gun. I would get a good pair of boots or clothes or something else
Posted By: Jgraider

Re: Creedmoor Tune-Up - 05/19/18 07:45 PM

You can be satisfied with 2-3 MOA all you want to. Matters not to me. I'm not a BR guy, hunting guns only for me, but if my rifles don't shoot MOA or better, they go down the road. I don't blame a guy in the least for wanting/demanding excellent accuracy in his hunting guns.
Also, if a guy wants to clean his barrel every1-10 rounds, who gives a ratsazzz. He only has himself to please.
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