Fierce Rifles

I know, no one here likes these custom rifles cuz they are built on a Tikka action.


BUT !!!!!

Cabela's Allen has a 6.5 Creedmoor in a light tan stock that sure looks SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET if anybody's in the market. You'll have to step up though its pushing $2000

Fierth.

Almost as funny as Thavage.

Are they built on a Tikka action? I thought everyone on THF loves Tikka except you.

I do wish someone would buy this Fierce and prove everyone wrong.


BIL, Cabela's has the Proof switch barrel in stock @ Allen

If someone is wanting to buy a Proof Research’s rifle and isn’t in a hurry, wait till the next SCi show. Their show special, at least this year, was $1,000 off MSRP.

Fierth.

I don't have your funds. I'm Mckinney trash , not quite a frisco high roller

I know, no one here likes these custom rifles cuz they are built on a Tikka action.


BUT !!!!!

Cabela's Allen has a 6.5 Creedmoor in a light tan stock that sure looks SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET if anybody's in the market. You'll have to step up though its pushing $2000

Finally!!!

Someone selling a rifle, making a claim of accuracy, had the balls to provide a group to prove it.

And I wouldn't be surprised if the flier was the shooter's fault.

I'm pretty sure that is the factory test target sent with all the Fierce rifles above the Fury line to prove the accuracy.
They use premium ammo for their test. Mine was under 1/2 MOA and shoots fairly consistently around that with a 180 Accubond loaded to 3100fps.

1/2 MOA, and we have a "flyer"......LMAO.

In that 3 shot group I wouldn't call the one shot slightly off a flyer. The group is still under 1/2 moa. The test target mine came with used Barnes premium ammo. The group from my test target was slightly larger than the one in that picture.

Two touching, one a bullet hole away. Yes that is a flier, as compared to the other two.

It is unfortunate you have eye problems.

You're wrong. When one put two way tighter than 1/2 MOA, that odd ball is a flier. You may not be able to shoot it, you may not have a rifle that will shoot it, but this rifle will probably shoot better than this group. Had it shot three in a cloverleaf I would call anything a flier

I would like to see it on a hand load, and shoot 4 or 5. So far it's looking like a fair buy at the asking price.

Even by your own definition (which is WAYYY too strict and outside the real definition), you can’t say that shot was a “flier” for this rifle. Because you don’t know the rifle. That might be its best group ever.

Yet you did.

I’m not wrong. No one would ever call any shot from a .38” group produced by an off the shelf hunting rifle a “flier”. No matter how well the rifle shoots.

Good day.

Flier isn’t a bad /negative word, just adjective to describe odd man out. It’s “definitely” the least consistent of the group, nothing more nothing less. I wouldn’t say the two shots touching was luck, more probable that the outlier was cause by some small margin of error, thus a flier.

Even by your own definition (which is WAYYY too strict and outside the real definition), you can’t say that shot was a “flier” for this rifle. Because you don’t know the rifle. That might be its best group ever.

Yet you did.

I’m not wrong. No one would ever call any shot from a .38” group produced by an off the shelf hunting rifle a “flier”. No matter how well the rifle shoots.

Good day.

One of the two on the left could have just as easily been a flier. I didn't shoot that group and neither did anybody else on this forum so who knows.

One of the two on the left could have just as easily been a flier. I didn't shoot that group and neither did anybody else on this forum so who knows.

Exactly.

None of us has a clue about that rifle’s capabilities. So none of us can say there’s a “flier” in that group at all.
So to do so is, at best, rank speculation - and certainly not a basis to question the eyesight of and/or argue that those who might disagree are ignorant trolls.

For how many rifles have you load developed for? For how many bullet and powder combinations? When's the last time you shot a rifle?

I know a thing or two about this, I do this every single week.

Contact Chad, and Judd today. Give them some hand loading and rifle shooting advice. I'm sure they too will be more than happy to pay attention to you, since you are an authority on that matter as well.

Contact Chad, and Judd today. Give them some hand loading and rifle shooting advice. I'm sure they too will be more than happy to pay attention to you, since you are an authority on that matter as well.

Well all I see is a .625 to .750 group, that's not a .38 group. Call it what you want but I've seen plus MOA rifles stack two in the same hole. I'm not saying the rifle won't shoot, it obviously does but you calling a shot you didn't make.

1/2 MOA, and we have a "flyer"......LMAO.

I wish I could win every case by saying over and over again “I’ve been a lawyer for 29 years. I’m an expert. I do this every day” to judges and juries.
Alas, it doesn’t work that way. Those picky folks demand evidence and logic. T’aint fair, I tell you.

4 shot .25 MOA 5 shot .5 MOA...... Walks like a flier, looks like a flier, quacks like a flier.... it’s the odd man out aka flier

.260 cal

Now that's a much better example and yes I would call it a flier. There's a reason we shoot 5 shot groups in competition.

On a side note the new world record is .007 for a 5 shot group at 100 yards.

I don't want to spend several hours today educating you on the topic. And you still wouldn't be caught up to many of us. It doesn't work that way, it has to be earned, same as a law degree. Maybe your blood sugar is low this morning. That's why you're not mentating properly and that went right over your head.

Go eat a good breakfast, it's the most important meal of the day.

Only difference in a 5 shot group and a 3 shot group is the shooter is trying shrink “his” probability of fliers.

In the case of 3 shot above fierce group, all they are doing is defining thier accuracy guarantee. There is definitely a flier in the group, but doesn’t matter meets accuracy guarantee, box it up and shoot next rifle.

I have given you the definition of a flier. Bobo has shown another group with a flier. There's not much else we can do to help you understand.

so somebody go buy this crappy shooting rifle. I would but my 3 shot group would have 3 fliers

The two of you bickering has went from entertaining to stupidity.

I vote flier.

NP you’re flat wrong on this one.

JG your need to have the last word will not likely change his views.

I think we have a disagreement as a result of a term that is not really properly defined.

I have a .280 built on a Mauser 98 that once printed a 0.18" CtC group, three shots. That group is pinned to my bulletin board. The rifle never printed one like that again. Can it be said that every shot fired thereafter has been a flier?

For the rifle, that outlier may be a flier and it may not. Just looking at that one single target, you can say the outlier is a flier. Or not. I don't think it matters...how the rifle does when four or five 5-shot groups are tallied up is what really matters.

There is more than just the gun that can cause one shot to be away from the others in a group. How many times have we referred to shooting as a system composed of the Shooter, Rifle and Ammo.

Consider that group for a moment. What caused the 1 to be not exactly with the others:
Rifle a posibility I have seen a bedding job on a rifle bring groups like that into small tighter groups.
Ammo the more consistent the ammo the less likely for it to be the case but it sure can effect impact point to be that far off or more.
Shooter is often the least consistent part of the system.

One target is too small a sample to define accuracy of a rifle. I have one if I expected all groups to be like its first 3 shots into .125 inch group center to center to be the "normal" or expected would be crazy for a stock factory Remington 700 classic but that one is a solid half MOA rifle when fed ammo it likes and the .125 was shot with Remington Corelokt factory loads.
With that rifle I have shot numeous groups almost that small but called a flyer on myself because I knew I was the problem as the crosshairs were not in the exact same place when the sear broke.

Just saying the group shows potential doesn't tell the whole story. Distance, ammo, optics, shooter, rest.....

An “awesome rifle, both in terms of design and performance” for its intended use doesn’t shoot “fliers”.

I would also say that I have never, ever seen anyone ever say an off the shelf hunting rifle that groups at .38” shoots “fliers”. Until today.

One could argue the above, I suppose. But, wow, IMO that would be a real stretch where so-called “expertise” has trumped real world common sense.

My actual and original point is that none of us can say that particular shot is a “flier” for that particular rifle - because none of us knows the rifle’s true capabilities. (And, with a .38” test group odds are dang sure much better that’s a representation of it being more likely to shoot larger groups on average than smaller.) But, again no one knows, so no one can say.
And on that point, there exists no real argument.

Two touching, one a bullet hole away. Yes that is a flier, as compared to the other two.

It is unfortunate you have eye problems.

Lol yes mine too - isn’t this a hoot?
All of my rifles shoot .000” groups with either 2 or 4 “fliers”.

Humor can often make an “on topic” point better than anything. That post hit the topic squarely. No “fliers”.
Not to mention it was not “calling out” anyone but myself.

If the best 3 shot group that rifle ever shot was the one in the picture is it still considered a flier? Can every group have a flier?

I think for a shot to be considered a flier it has to be outside the every day normal capabilities of the rifle. If it normally shoots .38" groups, then everything within that measurement is considered normal and none of them is a flier, IMO.

I tend to agree that if you don't know the rifle it's hard to call anything a flier. It may just be the best it can do.

Their point is, I believe, that if the rifle is capable of shooting 2 rounds touching, then it is capable of having 3 rounds touching with perfect form and a perfect handload. What I don’t think anybody mention is that I wouldn’t be surprised if the “flier” was a fouling shot and not a flier at all. Then the 2 consecutive shots were the ones touching.

Looking at any group, from any rifle, be in rounds fired since cleaning of 1-3, or 501 through 503, one outside is a flier. Even if it does that every time it is shot in a 3 shot group, one is a flier, and it and the remaining two are the group total. So you will have a rifle and load that was doing well, then the group opened up. Or you have the first shot, or the first X number of shots that land inconsistently. We don't know what shot number the flier is on this particular rifle. Yes, it could be shot #1, it could also be #2 or #3. If it's shot #1, I'm blaming it on fouling. If it's shot #2 or #3, I'm blaming it on shooter, or rifle, or load.

Looking at any group, from any rifle, be in rounds fired since cleaning of 1-3, or 501 through 503, one outside is a flier. Even if it does that every time it is shot in a 3 shot group, one is a flier, and it and the remaining two are the group total. So you will have a rifle and load that was doing well, then the group opened up. Or you have the first shot, or the first X number of shots that land inconsistently. We don't know what shot number the flier is on this particular rifle. Yes, it could be shot #1, it could also be #2 or #3. If it's shot #1, I'm blaming it on fouling. If it's shot #2 or #3, I'm blaming it on shooter, or rifle, or load.

If the best 3 shot group that rifle ever shot was the one in the picture is it still considered a flier? Can every group have a flier?

I think for a shot to be considered a flier it has to be outside the every day normal capabilities of the rifle. If it normally shoots .38" groups, then everything within that measurement is considered normal and none of them is a flier, IMO.

I tend to agree that if you don't know the rifle it's hard to call anything a flier. It may just be the best it can do.

Assumptions don’t always equate to fact.

Respectfully, there exists no basis (unless one counts blind luck) upon which to make that first statement without a lot more evidence than we have available to us.

BOBO, I don’t follow all of your last post, but I do agree with you that it cannot be said there is an outlier in that group - which is my point.

Yes ever group can have a flier by definition, it’s simply the most inconsistent of the group. In the case of a rifle, (non railgun) probablity in limiting accuracy is the shooter, not the gun

All fierce is claiming capability wise is it will shot 1/2 MOA, they showed it will achieve that. The point of contention is if it will shoot better then what it did. Any one that has seen what happens when the humans shooting form is removed can attest to the flier is most likely not the gun but rather human 1st and/or component deviation second, rifle way down at third

In a system the biggest variable is the shooter. Thus why you have railgun competitions, 100lb+ fixed rifles shooting < .05 5 shot groups @100 and <.15 groups @ 200 yards. Think hwyman said new record was 5 shoot .007, doesn’t surprise me.

Rail gun is still a barrel, action and trigger, difference is it’s accuracy definition isn’t as shooter dependent, more the true accuracy of the gun. So it’s more gun vs gun from a competition stand point.

So how many shooters are there can can truly out shot a sub MOA gun? Or better yet what’s the probability of a flier being shooter error vs rifle system error?

I'm pretty sure that is the factory test target sent with all the Fierce rifles above the Fury line to prove the accuracy.
They use premium ammo for their test. Mine was under 1/2 MOA and shoots fairly consistently around that with a 180 Accubond loaded to 3100fps.

WOW! How did this get so off track?

I made a statement saying I did not consider the one shot a flier. The reason is simple. Fierce makes a guarantee their rifles will shoot a 1/2" 3 shot group at 100 yards with premium ammo. They send a test target with the rifle and the ammo used. Anything under 1/2" meets their claim. If all three shots are not touching but are under 1/2" then the claim is still met and none of the shots are fliers. Somehow this conversation turned into something else. I was only talking about the Fierce guarantee and not any other rifles or shooting or accuracy or grouping claims.

And I agree with you 100%. They did in fact show a 1/2 MOA group shot by a rifle they built. Based on the group, I contend the rifle may have the ability to shoot even better.

A flier is a shot within a group that obviously doesn't conform to the POI pattern of the rest of the group. The cause is irrelevant. The size of the primary pattern is irrelevant. The only requirement is that it obviously/significantly doesn't conform to the pattern of the rest of the shots.

The shot on that test target was obviously a flier in my book. It's not even really debatable, and I'm a little surprised to see so much disagreement. But once again, that's JMHO and I'm not saying anyone is wrong. That's just how I view things. Anytime I see a pattern and then something that doesn't comply, then I look at it as an outlier.

If you made me quantify the statement at a very general level, I'd say that if an overall group size doubles by including the "outlier" versus not including it, then it's a flier. Obviously this group would qualify for that description. But that's why 4 and 5 shot groups are better indicators of the capability of a system than 3-shot groups as well.

I looked at the fierce rifles......they were ok but I couldn't wrap my mind around the almost $3k price tag.

imo not any better than a Christensen arms for more money

To repeat both of us, Cleric, a flier does not have to be shooter error.

It’s all semantics, but I view a flier and an outlier as different things I guess. I consider a flier user error and an outlier something else. A flier is an outlier but an outlier isn’t always a flier.

It’s all semantics, but I view a flier and an outlier as different things I guess. I consider a flier user error and an outlier something else. A flier is an outlier but an outlier isn’t always a flier.

Plausible.

We just don't tend to use the word outlier, very often, no?

It’s all semantics, but I view a flier and an outlier as different things I guess. I consider a flier user error and an outlier something else. A flier is an outlier but an outlier isn’t always a flier.

A flier to me is when there is a very clear group, say 10 or 20 shots, and one goes 3 - 4 MOA or more out of the group.

Nogalus' pic to me is what I call a "split group." That is a good group, with the bullets landing in one group or the other, but overall it still is tight. Split groups often can be merged into one by adjusting seating depth.

Those are 1/4” squares.
Let’s bring this back to reality.
To yourselves silently, all of you ask yourselves if you shot that group first time out with your new off-the-shelf hunting rifle, if you would say there is a “flier” in that group.

I rest my case.

That’s exactly why you can’t comprehend why the rifle can most likely shoot better with some TLC.

That’s exactly why you can’t comprehend why the rifle can most likely shoot better with some TLC.

Nogalus,

The only issue with your point of view is I get the impression from reading your posts for a very long time is that you only own rifles as a means to hunt. The group in that picture will be more than adequate for any hunting scenario at any distance you will ever be in. Any effort put forth to make it shoot better will always be wasted effort. A lot of people buy rifles and their only reason to own it is to shoot groups as tiny as possible. They would look at that group as a good starting point. You see it as a great ending point. Neither side is wrong, but you have proven over and over that you have no time or patience for people who want to shoot tiny groups. You also routinely act as though the guys who want to shoot tiny groups spend zero time in the field and don’t have any experience hunting. You are simply wrong in that regard. Nobody would say the rifle doesn’t shoot well. We can all agree on that I believe. But there are ALOT of guys who don’t think it is good enough for what they want to get out of it.

A flier to me is when there is a very clear group, say 10 or 20 shots, and one goes 3 - 4 MOA or more out of the group.

Nogalus' pic to me is what I call a "split group." That is a good group, with the bullets landing in one group or the other, but overall it still is tight. Split groups often can be merged into one by adjusting seating depth.

Those are 1/4” squares.
Let’s bring this back to reality.
To yourselves silently, all of you ask yourselves if you shot that group first time out with your new off-the-shelf hunting rifle, if you would turn to your buddy and say “Hey, there is a “flier” in that group!”
Or immediately pronounce that a .07” rifle with one “flier”.

I rest my case.

Amen.

Nogalus,

The only issue with your point of view is I get the impression from reading your posts for a very long time is that you only own rifles as a means to hunt. The group in that picture will be more than adequate for any hunting scenario at any distance you will ever be in. Any effort put forth to make it shoot better will always be wasted effort. A lot of people buy rifles and their only reason to own it is to shoot groups as tiny as possible. They would look at that group as a good starting point. You see it as a great ending point. Neither side is wrong, but you have proven over and over that you have no time or patience for people who want to shoot tiny groups. You also routinely act as though the guys who want to shoot tiny groups spend zero time in the field and don’t have any experience hunting. You are simply wrong in that regard. Nobody would say the rifle doesn’t shoot well. We can all agree on that I believe. But there are ALOT of guys who don’t think it is good enough for what they want to get out of it.

I wouldn’t call it a flier, but obviously some people would. Regardless of the fact you don’t respect their opinion doesn’t make it wrong.

So I guess some would say, if that group were a perfect triangular pattern, still a .5" (or whatever) group, that there would be 2 "flyers"??? absolutely not, a triangle group is the group, no fliers After all, one of the two shots touching could be shooter induced as well. A guy can't possibly know without shooting more groups. agreed, but a group with two touching and one outside still has a flier

So I guess some would say, if that group were a perfect triangular pattern, still a .5" (or whatever) group, that there would be 2 "flyers"??? After all, one of the two shots touching could be shooter induced as well. A guy can't possibly know without shooting more groups.

^^Exactly

When a rifle will put two touching (no paper between) and one is outside that, I say "why?". It has shown me what it is capable of, now I need to figure out how to get that FLIER to go away, and become part of the group.

For those speaking of a certain distance that is required to be called a flier, I believe that cannot be a hard rule. If the best a rifle can shoot is 2 MOA, then one outside that is a flier. If a rifle can shoot 1/4 MOA, then one outside that is also a flier, but it may be much closer to the 1/4 MOA group, than the flier was from the 2 MOA group. It is a ratio, in other words.

That is exactly what I would say. Because two touched each other, and there was a flier. That tells me the rifle is capable, and can be improved upon.

How many times do I have to write that?

Since we are arguing about unknowns, what if the shooter of said rifle was better than anyone here, and what if that three shot group was better than the two others?

You mean the other ones didn’t meet the 1/2 MOA guarantee so he/she grab another ammo and shot again and another ammo until he had a load that was with in the guarantee? Then went in did the same thing with the other 40 rifles for that day?

I sure he was trying to get the absolute best out of since wether it printed a .45 or .35 it’s going to sale for same price.

How many countless factory rifles with factory ammo that are nowhere near moa rifles have shot 2 touching shots? Ive done it with several and attribute it to little more than luck.

Long ago, there was an interesting writeup by a competitive shooter, who also happened to do statistical analysis for a living.

One of his most interesting points was that "fliers" are as likely to "fly" inward as outward. We tend to notice those that fly out of a group, but never think about a shot flying into and shrinking a group.

One of his main thoughts was that 3, 5, and 10 shot groups are really not statically significant. He completely ignored the sd numbers on chronographs for the simple reason there were too few data points to make the readout meaningful. He would shoot ladders using 3 shot groups to make some quick cuts and narrow things down, then do 10 shot groups several times in a row.

Do you reload?

For about the last 30 years or so.

Dear Lord, talk about beating a dead horse down until it becomes a bloody pulp of a Chihuahua!! Flier or no flier the gun shoots like most of the rifles Fierce puts out hence their 1/2" guarantee. If they shoot better than 1/2" then all the more better!

Maybe there should be a new discussion on rifle/shooter/ammunition accuracy and potential accuracy. But in reality this will probably end up turning the Chihuahua into a tiny black hole where nothing escapes......nothing.......LOL

How many countless factory rifles with factory ammo that are nowhere near moa rifles have shot 2 touching shots? Ive done it with several and attribute it to little more than luck.

I agree, and made the same point as your first two paragraphs at least twice on this thread. Which is still about one 3 shot group from one rifle. Which is a very important factor to the discussion - in fact, the most important.

then you would rework your load, until you could pin point the issue or reach an accuracy you thought was with in your give ability. But you already knew that, why you reload.

The other two groups were .499” and .413”.
Or maybe...It would be hard for me to assume, I wasn’t there. Nor have I shot the rifle.

I would first shoot at least 4, 5 shot groups to see if it was repeatable, then I'd start tweaking here and there. I have to tell you though if I consistently got .5' groups I'd stop right there and quit chasing minutiae.

I'm wondering where tenyearsgone is on this topic

Hey !!!

did ya'll know the Earth is Flat?????

I'm wondering where tenyearsgone is on this topic

Those are 1/4” squares.
Let’s bring this back to reality.
To yourselves silently, all of you ask yourselves if you shot that group first time out with your new off-the-shelf hunting rifle, if you would turn to your buddy and say “Hey, there is a “flier” in that group!”
Or immediately pronounce that a .07” rifle with one “flier”.

I rest my case.

Don't rest too long, those are half inch squares, but I think that's what you meant. I'm looking at a .750 to .800 group. The round itself is larger than .250.

Bullet Diam is .264

Are you sure? I’m going off 1)the .38 written for the group, 2)the size of the guy’s thumb (can see on the full photo), and the fact that many targets are 1” squares broken into four parts. I won’t bet my life on it.

As you say, the point still stands.

Here you go:

So I guess some would say, if that group were a perfect triangular pattern, still a .5" (or whatever) group, that there would be 2 "flyers"??? No, please re-read my suggested quantitative definition. If the inclusion of the worst shot in the group increases the overall group size by double or more, then I consider it a flier. In your triangle case, there would be no fliers. This really is simple stuff. It's not meant to be complicated. If a rifle shows an obvious pattern, whether that is 2 MOA or .2 MOA, and a shot falls obviously/significantly outside of that pattern, it can be considered a flier.

The way some of you talk, it's like nobody in benchrest shooting would ever have a flyer, ever, because their groups are always tiny. 4 shots in the same hole with one a half inch away wouldn't be a 'flier' because the group as a whole is still way better than your Ruger American can shoot. That's a ridiculous standard.

Define 'flier' for me quantitatively and then let's talk. Otherwise, all this discussion is about is the lack of reading comprehension of a few posters.

The way some of you talk, it's like nobody in benchrest shooting would ever have a flyer, ever, because their groups are always tiny. 4 shots in the same hole with one a half inch away wouldn't be a 'flier' because the group as a whole is still way better than your Ruger American can shoot. That's a ridiculous standard.

Define 'flier' for me quantitatively and then let's talk. Otherwise, all this discussion is about is the lack of reading comprehension of a few posters.

The point some have been making is 100% lost on you.

patriot07-

This post is not a discussion of rifles in general. That’s the point I believe you have missed. This post is about one particular rifle and one particular 3 shot group it produced. I agree about where the discussion started, but the discussion turned to rifles in general by some people making gross generalizations about what could or couldn't be called a flier. That group measured at .38”. Looking at the target, if the holes are 6.5mm, the group looks right around .5" to me, or a little bigger. I don't know what the ".38" is referring to, but if those lines are half inch grid lines which they appear to be since the bullet hole is about half the width of the space between lines, then this isn't a .38" group.
I’ll further add that this is not a competition benchrest rifle - it is an off-the-shelf hunting rifle shooting factory ammo. This is a $3,000 precision hunting rifle with a .5 MOA guarantee. Let's not pretend like this is a Ruger American or Savage Axis. But once again, in my opinion, that's not relevant to the discussion of whether or not that group has a flier in it since fliers aren't specific to rifles.

The point is that no one can “quantitatively” define what a “flier” is for this rifle based on the only evidence we have. No one. So asking someone to do so or actually attempting to do so is a fool’s errand. Because no basis exists to do so. Fliers are not specific to the rifle. That's my point that you have missed. A flier is specific to a group. You're trying to make this about the rifle, which is missing the entire point that I've been trying to make.

Yet some did - saying that .38” group had a “flier”. And “doubled down” on it by saying those who disagreed were wrong despite the fact that they were the mistaken ones. You're saying that some are "wrong" and some are "right" even though what you really mean is the ones who are "wrong" are the ones who disagreed with you and the ones who are "right" are the ones who agreed with you. That's an important distinction that is worth making for the remainder of this discussion. Someone agreeing with you doesn't automatically make them right, just like someone disagreeing with you doesn't automatically make them wrong, or vice versa. Clearly, these are all opinions.

1)Some simply don’t understand the point. By this, you mean some don't agree with you.
2)And, further, some have attempted to deflect from the point by then acting as if the discussion was a broad one about all rifles or (better yet) benchrest rifles, or what the rifle might or might not do, or what one 3 shot group indicates, or ....... or........or....... When people started making all sorts of irrelevant qualifiers about why they didn't think this was a "flier" that had absolutely nothing to do with what the actual definition of a flier is, then that's when this became non-specific ("this is a hunting rifle", "shooting factory ammo", "no .38 group can have a flier", etc.). Speaking specifically about this group or non-specifically about fliers in general, a flier is a single shot that significantly doesn't comply with the POI pattern for the rest of the group. That's not specific to a rifle, but it's a standard way of looking at things that can be applied to this group.
3)And, still further, some have now agreed with the ones who they argued with earlier (without acknowledging their agreement, of course) as if they were right all along - presumably hoping others would not notice their reversal.
And, some have now run the gamut and done 1, 2, and 3.

That’s a basic summary. It’s all up there in its full glory.

A .264 bulletin wouldn&#146;t fit in a 1/4&#148; square.

patriot07-

The group is less than .5&#148;. Otherwise, it wouldn&#146;t meet the rifle&#146;s guarantee. The squares are, indeed, 1/2&#148; (as I acknowledged above). Subtract the bullet diameter from the greatest outside measurement to get the group size - in this case .38&#148;. Again, see the photo example and text I posted above. (Some are apparently either are not aware of or are forgetting the step of subtracting the bullet diameter to get the group size.)

Fliers are specific to groups. Groups are specific to rifles. Thus, one can&#146;t say what a &#147;flier&#148; is for a specific group shot by a rifle until you know the rifle. You got my point as evidenced by your last paragraph. I got your point also. I simply disagree with it.

These are not just &#147;all opinions&#148;. The point I have discussed is not opinion at all. That point is one can&#146;t say there is a &#147;flier&#148; in one .38&#148; group without more evidence than we have before us. Even using your definition-because 2 shots from ONE three shot group cannot and does not make a &#147;POI pattern for the rest of the group&#148;. It&#146;s just where 2 shots hit out of one 3 shot group. That does not a &#147;pattern&#148; make. No one can say it is a &#147;flier&#148; or an &#147;outlier&#148; in this group, other groups, or how the rifle shoots on average. We need more data. We do not have it.

There is &#147;wrong&#148; and &#147;right&#148; in life sometimes. You are correct that the basis of wrong or right is not whether people agree or disagree about something. Wrong or right is based on facts and logic applied to those facts.

The other red stuff relates to broader discussions I had no issue with other than to point out it was off the point I was making.

Even if I agreed with you that the discussion about this one group from this one rifle was simply about opinions and each person can have a valid opinion on the subject, what brought me into it was that one poster slammed another poster for, at best, having a different opinion than him regarding whether or not the group had a &#147;flier&#148;. It did not sit well, so I joined the discussion.

Acrimony aside, IMO it has been an interesting discussion. As always, I have learned some things along the way.

Thanks for the well wishes and same to you.

I agree there is right and wrong sometimes, but if we can't agree on the definition of a flier, then there isn't any way for us to define who is right or wrong, which makes this all opinion....IMHO of course.

However, one thing we shouldn't have to disagree on group size. If you acknowledge that those lines are on a half inch grid, then that is not a .38" group if you're measuring center to center on the two farthest apart shots. It's going to be somewhere between .5" and .6".

I'm going to go buy this damn thing!!! So we can close this thread down.

I'm sorry I sparked such a lively debate


NOT

Does this not bother anyone else. Outside the discussion of if it&#146;s a flier or not are they misrepresenting their weapons. I&#146;m fairly certain about the group size I posted along with the one from fierce. It was the closest I could find to theirs.

I&#146;m tempted to drive to cabelas today with some calipers.

Bottom target has 2 DEFINATE flier's, any group bigger than "caliber specific" has a flier

Does this not bother anyone else. Outside the discussion of if it’s a flier or not are they misrepresenting their weapons. I’m fairly certain about the group size I posted along with the one from fierce. It was the closest I could find to theirs.

I’m tempted to drive to cabelas today with some calipers.

That vertical dispersion is very troubling. Hopefully the Dali Lama of shooting will sort this one out for us too.

^^Nice cloverleaf, no flier.

The fact that 2 shots does not a group make and that all 3 shots were circled (which is, as this non-expert understands it is how groups are commonly illustrated) were my clues that they didn&#146;t exclude the shot on the right.

It got fixed. That was just the closest to the fierce target I could find.

Can I tell you guys something that will blow your mind? A 3 shot group isn't a group for telling accuracy. It's too few rounds to know what is really happening with a load, rifle or ammo. I have seen many rifles that were only 2 shot rifles, and the 3rd+ shots were all random from that point on.

And the squares on that sheet are 1/2 inch. I can see that the 3 shots are about 1/2 spread, knowing bullet diameter. .38" is not bad, but often times only 3 shots are used to determine how accurate a rifle is, which I think is a fallacy.

Can I tell you guys something that will blow your mind? A 3 shot group isn't a group for telling accuracy. It's too few rounds to know what is really happening with a load, rifle or ammo. I have seen many rifles that were only 2 shot rifles, and the 3rd+ shots were all random from that point on.

And the squares on that sheet are 1/2 inch. I can see that the 3 shots are about 1/2 spread, knowing bullet diameter. .38" is not bad, but often times only 3 shots are used to determine how accurate a rifle is, which I think is a fallacy.

I'm going to go buy this damn thing!!! So we can close this thread down.

I'm sorry I sparked such a lively debate


NOT

I haven't done it in a while but for quite some time I kept some playing cards used for my cold bore shot on each range trip. Interesting to see what you get with a 10 shot group all cold bore on the same target over 10 trips to the range