fluted barrels

first let me say, the following is just a ?, why do a lot of people like fluted? I know one of the answers is the barrel cools faster, has this been documented? reduced weight (I can see that point) why does Shilen NOT flute their barrels? I have some that are, my only reason..I like the looks.

I'm thinking of having one or two done for the reduced weight. I think cosmetics are often a big motivating factor.

I do it to cut down on weight. A barrel can easily lose a pound or more depending on contour, length, and type/ number of flutes.

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It's supposed to reduce weight and possibly look better - while not adversely affecting the barrels stiffness, if I understand correctly.

Retaining the bull-barrel stiffness without all of that weight.

Biggest benefit is reduced weight.

Aesthetics

The flutes do provide more surface area so the barrel should cool more quickly how much is the question.

Strength, I have read lots of different things on this, including claims of fluting makes the barrel stiffer. Do not believe that. Cannot recall making anything stronger by removing material from it. Now if those claims were that a fluted barrel is stiffer than an unfluted barrel of the same weight (not diameter) I can agree with that.

Accuracy, if the flutes are not even and consistent accuracy can be adversely affected especially when the barrel starts to heat up, or so I have read many timea and do not doubt that.

I started out with a 26" Criterion barrel that weighed 6.2 pounds. Had it cut down to 22" and a heavy spiral fluting done to it and now it weighs 3.3 pounds. The kool factor is nice but it was all about weight reduction. No accuracy issues, shoots .280 best group at 100 yards.

^^What kmon1 said^^

I agree with FiremanJG agreeing with kmon1.

I have found the biggest benefit is in the cooling. we get to do a lot of high volume buck-toothed varmint shooting up here and the guns get wicked hot. A properly fluted barrel ameliorates that quite a bit....so much so I have fluted barrels on my two favorite high volume guns. That said look critically at flutes. Many from the factory are shallow and meant for aesthetics instead of function. More surface area does indeed cause something to cool faster....but many factory guns are fluted in name only, with no performance benefit. My experience with accuracy in fluted barrels has been excellent. Stiffness? Your guess is as good as mine...

Showoff! That's a nice word.

Ameliorates - make (something bad) better.

Hey!! I am the "big word" user around here - you're horning in on my turf.

I have always had accuracy concerns with fluted barrels - don't know if they are justified or not.

They are not. I've had more than one fluted barrel that shot tiny.

I'd like to see scientific evidence of equal contour barrels, one fluted, one not. And would like to see an I.R. sensor shot on the barrels after the same number of rounds in the same amount of time.

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X2 that would be very cool.

I would like to see that as well. I bet some possibly myself included would be surprised at the results. I think the flutes do help a barrel cool quicker than an unfluted barrel if the flutes provide more surface area and are not just cosmetic. That said I also believe the fluted barrel of the same contour will heat faster than the unfluted barrel (less material to heat up).

Ever work with heatsinks for electronic equipment? They will be hotter at the heat source and cooler at the ends of the fins. I would bet the flutes also aid cooling buy having air closer to the heat source for cooling. You can shoot out a heavy barrel fluted or not in one prairie dog trip if the shooting is fast and you let the barrel get to hot and keep shooting. Good reason to take several rifles.

You asked about Shilen, this is from their web page:

What about "fluting" a barrel?
Fluting is a service we neither offer nor recommend. If you have a Shilen barrel fluted, the warranty is void. Fluting a barrel can induce unrecoverable stresses that will encourage warping when heated and can also swell the bore dimensions, causing loose spots in the bore. A solid (un-fluted) barrel is more rigid than a fluted barrel of equal diameter. A fluted barrel is more rigid than a solid barrel of equal weight. All rifle barrels flex when fired. Accuracy requires that they simply flex the same and return the same each time they are fired, hence the requirement for a pillar bedded action and free floating barrel. The unrecoverable stresses that fluting can induce will cause the barrel to flex differently or not return from the flexing without cooling down a major amount. This is usually longer than a shooter has to wait for the next shot. The claim of the flutes helping to wick heat away faster is true, but the benefit of the flutes is not recognizable in this regard until the barrel is already too hot.

Seen many fluted barrels, in the hands of outstanding shooters, make some amazing shots. And it was repeated at will.

Some of the statements there made sense. Others... Not so much.

He may be referring to the effect of fluting upon barrels that have been straightened at the factory, prior to sale.

Then again, maybe not. - Kind of hard to tell.

Sounds like they know most people are going to flute their barrels, and this saves them warranty money.

When I decided to have the Kreiger barrel of my .300 WM fluted, I mentioned Shilen's position statement to Alton Britt at Dixie Precision Rifles. He said that loss of accuracy by fluting is an old wives' tale that has been refuted over and over. Furthermore, Dixie's very own position statement is that if your gun shoots worse after fluting, they will install another Krieger barrel on your action for free.

I'm no benchrest marksman, but my gun suffered no ill effects from the procedure.

what you posted about fluted barrels makes sense my father was an outstanding marksmen and and had real world experience in shooting long rang. if i remember right when i asked him about fluted battles she aid he akicd his instructor the same questions he told me that a fluted barrels would warp under heavy firing they heated quicker hence the reason army snipers dont use them they have to be able to shoot maltable times with out having to worry about shots being off ehtn the barrel heated or warping when your life depends on your gun to shoot straight it made sense to me if i remember the story correctly i dont know for sure i have never shot a fluted barrel gun i did handle the mossburge rifle that had been flooded it felt good i am thinking of buying on they make great shotgun and i have not heard much about there rifles i am sure they are not as good as other brands but who know they my shout great i cold not fined much on line about there grouping that is what i care about more then anything how small with it firer right out of the box doing nothing to them like my Axis i love it i t my be cheap but it feels comfortable and I love the skinny neck on the stock it feels like have a lot of control over the gun the only down side its i could not get it bedded it wont stick with this stock it wold just come out but it shot well enough with a trigger job

Whenever the fluting debate comes up the Shilen blog is always brought up. But when you check into having a gun built I have never ever heard a top notch builder say Shilen. I usually hear their name from people that are rebuilding a savage or need a barrel super fast. I do not take their old beliefs to heart because I've seen fluted barrels work when done by somebody that has the proper knowledge and tooling.
The tikka super lights, mossbergs, and skinney barrels are a sales gimmick and for looks. They look good. When you get up into bigger contours the difference starts to help more the bigger the contour. Plain and simple.

Fluting definitely reduces weight and is a big plus when carrying a lot. A fluted barrel will heat up faster because the barrel weighs less. I suppose if you are shooting a lot and fast, like prarie dog shoots, a heavy barrel is best. Whether the fluted barrel cools faster depends on the convection patterns around it during cooling. I doubt the cooling rate is much faster unless in a high wind. You can't take advantage of the extra area if the cooling air can't get to the surface. For most hunting, I'll take the fluted barrel, as long as it's stainless. I have enough trouble fighting rust without fluting on carbon steels. I rarely shoot more than once, unless I run into a sounder, and even then it's hardly enough rounds to cause a heating issue. To the point of cost, that's the tiebreaker. Don't expect a fluted barrel to cool faster on an AR when the fluted area is covered up with a handguard or free float tube either. Accuracy can go either way, but at equal weight and length, fluting is stiffer. That's how I-beams and H-beams work.

comparing flutes to I beams Is apples & oranges

Really? It all has to do with stiffness, in a particular direction, for a given amount of mass. It might be apples and oranges but fluting is a very efficient way to increase stiffness thus minimizing the amplitude of harmonic vibrations for a given length and weight of barrel. I-beams are very efficient at taking loads considering weight and span. Another approach would be using a lighter, stronger material, such as titanium. But this would likely be even more expensive than fluting.

The key there is equal weight and length. So take a heavy contour and flute it, reducing weight, versus a non-fluted, thinner contour, that weighs the same, the fluted barrel is stiffer. It has larger dementions in 360°.

You said it very well. I think the reason they are becoming more popular is that quality is up and costs are down relative to decades ago because of CNC machinery.

If fluting was detrimental to a barrel I seriously doubt top barrel makers like Bartlein, Krieger, etc would even offer the option. I wouldnt consider Shilen in the same class as these guys.

Agreed.

Agreed again.

A couple months ago I was talking with Lester Bruno (Bruno Shooter Supply, benchrest hall of fame) about accuracy. Asked about fluting he said..... If the barrel was properly stress relived and the barrel is not allowed to get hot while cutting flutes (or cutting octagon) it does not effect accuracy.
I shop at his store, he is a Great resource of info, not that the Internet isn't a good source.

Mark

Don't know all there is to know about the topic but I bought a Savage Model 12 BVSS (223 cal.) with a Laminate Wood Stock, AccuTrigger, and Satin Stainless Finish, Fluted just because it looked cool. Oh, and it will almost cover the holes at 100 Yards.

I have the same model in 22-250 1/9 will do that.

Ed shilen told me years ago that it's not that they think fluting is bad for a barrel IF DONE PROPERLY. The reason they do not warranty barrels is they have no control over whether the gunsmith does it right or not.