Setting up a Trust

OK so I am not an NFA expert, but finally fell off the deep end and purchased a suppressor, thanks to the temptation buy all my customers, specifically Dstroud.

Tell me what the best and easiest and cheapest way to correctly set up a trust that will work. I am being told guntrust.com??

You can use your LLC if you don't want to set up a trust. Just FYI.

I used:

James N. Willi
Willi Law Firm, P.C.
9600 Escarpment Blvd.
Ste. 745, PMB 34
Austin, TX 78749-1983
Main (512) 288-3200
Cell (512) 751-3229
Fax (512) 288-3202
jwilli@willi.com

very pleased with his service and knowledge of firearms in general. I would highly recommend him to anyone. You can see his website here: http://www.myguntrust.com

I want to keep it away from the business if at all possible want to keep it strictly personal property.

Call The Silencer Shop in Austin. I think they do it for less than $100.00 and they are one of the highest volume suppressor dealers in the US.

+1 I used him as well and have zero complaints. There are numerous horror stories regarding DIY trusts and it is not much more money to have an attorney do it properly. I really don't get why people spending upwards of 1000$ on a can doesn't want to shell out an extra 100-200$ to have a trust done properly.

199trust.com is pretty cheap. Every so often they run a deal on Gear Hog for $59 for a trust. Regular price is $79. I used a trust lawyer in Fort Worth for mine so I can't say how good or easy this one is.
If you want cheaper, there is a free trust template floating around the gun forums. It's up to you to decide what you want to spend and who you want to ask questions to.
Some people do their own and then ask questions on the forums and get 20 different answers. I call/e-mail my trust lawyer and get a correct answer any time I need it.

I've done a few trusts using will maker. No issues at all, no questions either. It's just a document. I do my own land title deeds too. Once they're filed, it's as good as a high dollar lawyer screw job

I used 199Trust and have no complaints. At the time, trust were a little higher, so I think that I paid $149 or similar.

Also, I also keep an image of each stamp on my phone; not that I've ever needed to show them.

The place I bought my supressor offered to give me a trust which was 4 pages. My dad is an attorney and I talked to him about it and he wrote me one that is just over 40 pages which seems like a lot but it protects you. I have several things in my trust that are neat deals that give me some cool options as well. Steer clear of individuals that will give you a trust for free, my understanding is this falls under practicing law without a licensee which is illegal. Spend the time and money with a good lawyer it will pay off in the end.

My recommendation is have a LAWYER do it. Only costs about $250 and takes one phone call. I used cole bryan in fort worth. I spent about 20 minutes on the phone with him and about 2 hours later he emailed me the trust. Easy as can be.

x3 on James Willi.
It really comes down to what are you comfortable with.
I wasnt comfortable with a diy trust. I like the idea that i can get legal advice if needed. You wont get that with 199trust or any others like it. Granted im confident i wont need it with the trust James Willi did,but its there is my point. It gave me piece of mind going through a lawyer and really wasnt all that expensive.

x2

that is who i used, feel real good about it. they are backing what they did for you

that being said the other day while at the silencer shop, they did the person that was in line before me in less than 15 minutes and it only cost him 129$

i was quite impressed with how quick it actually went

I used these people.

Toronjo & Prosser Law
Website : www.t-plaw.com
10000 N. Central Expy
Suite 407
Dallas, TX 75231

Super easy, took maybe 30 minutes. Cost $200 and they gave me a flash drive with everything I need along with all the paper work. I have also called/emailed them since and they are very helpful with all questions. The benefits of going with a lawyer instead of a do it yourself is that they will help you down the road.

David Voeller is who we prefer. Very, very tight trust with lots of legal NFA know how. He pretty much specializes in NFA trust. We've never had an issue with his trust

http://www.voellerlaw.com/aboutUs-David-Voeller.php

Look what just came up on Gear Hog, $59 trust.
http://www.gearhog.com/?did=68745

Chris Bass - NFA Lawyer

...or just get your SOT and eliminate the Form 4 hassles. Most of our NFA items are owned by the shop as "demos". It's a write off!

Since you're in the gun business definitely use a lawyer. There may be underlying things that need to be addressed for your specific situation. I used Chris Bass in Dallas and was pleased with his work.

I used him as well, very pleased

Welp I will call this guy monday sounds like the thing to do

When I was searching, Chris Bass in Dallas and Cole Bryan in Fort Worth were the most recommended in DFW. I went with Cole Bryan. Great to deal with before, during, and after.

I used Cole Bryan in Fort Worth as well. Great experience.

What are your sources for the "numerous horror stories regarding DIY trusts"?

I have never heard of a single problem with them, just pissing and moaning from people who spent too much and think that you can't get a gun trust for under $150.

"ATF has seen many trusts which name the same individual as the beneficiary. It would appear that all of those people are just copying the trust from someone else. They believe that one day this random person could inherit thousands of NFA firearms."

https://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2015/04/atf-statements-at-the-nra-firearms-law-seminar.html

Willmaker worked for me, but with no kids it's not that complicated.

I used silencer shop as well. I purchased the trust on Sunday, $129, read over it and completed it in about 20-25 minutes. Purchased the suppressor and tax stamp from them a few minutes later. Went and had the trust notarized on Monday, scanned it, made copies, then e-mailed it to silencer shop Monday after lunch. Had an e-mail back from silencer shop later Monday afternoon with a copy of the form 4 that they completed and submitted. Now the wait begins. Very smooth process and great company. I called to ask questions 2x last week and they were happy (or at least seemed happy) to answer my questions.

That's not a horror story...you're dead and odds are most won't care what is done with their NFA items and the ones who do care do not have some random person's name in their trust document.

I asked around about trust and the fact is if the ATF approves it then it's done. There is no horror stories with DIY Trusts and there was no after the fact issues that I was able to find regarding a trust. The ATF isn't breaking down doors to people, arresting or taking DIY trust folks to court.

Do with what you are comfortable with but there isn't a thing wrong with the DIY trusts or the lawyer drafted trusts...they both work.

I'm hesitant to post up information from gun trust attorneys websites, but I have seen where they list stories of trusts that were setup incorrectly and there were problems.

The ATF isn't there to check your trust for you. The trust is a legal document for the court. The ATF just cares that there is a trust. You can write a simple trust on a napkin and send a copy to the ATF if you want. The court is the only one that will care about the legality and wording of your trust. And the only time the court cares is if someone dies or there is a legal issue. See if Willmaker or a trust you wrote yourself would hold up in court. See what it will cost to get a lawyer to defend that trust. It's your money, you do what you want. I think when spending thousands on guns and suppressors, I would want to spend a little money and get something written by a trust lawyer that would defend it in court if the need arose.

NFA trust has wording that is not in a regular trust. When the ATF is involved I want to be sure I'm not in violation of a law so I used an attorney that specializes in NFA trusts. I had mine done in 2007 and it was a little more expensive than I would have liked but there wasn't near as much info available then. My understanding is that a trust that has been approved could be found invalid (say the 2nd, 3rd.....10th time you apply for a form 1 or form 4) then all previous trusts are invalid and you become a fellon on all previous NFA stamps. Not sure that is the case but I'm not willing to risk it with a cheap generic trust.

That said SilencerCo has a trust form now and everything SilencerCo does is top notch.

Who's going to take you to court? Unless you are doing something illegal or your trust is a royal cluster-f you have nothing to worry about. And if you think a trust lawyer is going to defend anything in court for free I would get that in writing because I have never seen a lawyer do anything for free.

Still no answer for my question....just hypotheticals. Let's see an example of someone who went to jail, lost their NFA items, or went to court over a DIY/Pre-made trust.

https://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2009/05/batfe-seeks-to-seize-nfa-firea.html

$99 NFA Trust. My dad used them and got his first eForm 1 back in 10 weeks.

www.nfalawyers.com

Still seems to be hypotheticals and no specific info that states an issue with a DIY Trust?

Looks that way and that article is from 2009 and it says it was resolved. Just to be clear, I'm not advocating doing it yourself, just that an attorney isn't necessary. Use one of the reputable sites like Silencershop that sales them for $129 and be done with it.

Accidents happen. And when accidents happen, people start lawyering up and sueing you for anything they can. If there's an accident involving an NFA item, they will try to tear apart your trust in court.
I never said a lawyer would defend the trust in court for free. I said a lawyer would defend a trust they wrote in court. Or at least mine will.
You do whatever you want. It's your money and your life. I have zero concerns about my trust.

Just so you will know. I talked to Willi's office the other day and sent a client to him. His associate told me that ATF was going to start doing a through review on all the gun trusts submitted specifically because all the "do it yourself'ers have no idea what they were doing". I do a lot of trusts, but my work is tax and estate planning. I'm sure there are some here who think they can do that also and "just be done with it".

Sure are a lot of "shoe clerk" lawyers on this web site. They'll all be doing brain surgery next.

Tax and estate planning? I'm sure the $20 copy of Will Maker will take care of that too. (/sarcasm)

Kinda my point. I'm done trying to convince someone what most would consider to be the smart approach to this. Knock yourselves out saving 100 bucks writing your own legal documents.

Am I the only one who has never heard the term "Shoe Clerk" lawyer?

I thought the term was "Shoe Box Lawyer". I just assumed it was the same thing. It's a term for someone giving legal advice without being a lawyer, which I believe is illegal.

It's the term we in the profession use to define low information unlicensed fools giving legal advice. And yes it is a crime. It is called "unauthorized practice of law" and several shoe clerks on this thread (I'm not referencing you) have committed that crime. Check the Texas Penal Code, section 38.123.

The best legal advise a lay person can give is "I don't know I'm not a lawyer, you need to go see one".

I was going to let this pass and even had a different post typed up but I cannot resist.

So now because some folks don't use an atty to draft their trust and shared their experience they are fools and providing legal advice? Do you see anywhere that someone offered their trust up for copy, do you see anywhere that someone said "this is how you do it"? I'll answer that question in the best condescending pompous asshat way to match your post...no, only an idiot would interpret this post that way.

To quote myself to continue your elitist theme:



I did my homework…there is not a single issue that I can find or that has been posted here that indicates an approved non-atty trust is going to cause you problems (that isn’t posted or on an atty’s site because that is nothing short of advertising). The only issue that could be valid (I still cannot find an issue anywhere in the past) is if you are involved in a crime and your NFA item is used. Truth is if that is the case the trust aspect will be the least of your concerns and you will have much bigger problems than a DIY trust.

Oh and one last parting jab since you enjoyed yours so much….it’s “best legal advice” not advise. And if you didn’t mean to come off that way then I’ll be the first to point out that is how you came across and just ignore my condesending pompous asshat, elitest theme and English lesson

To the rest of the posters...I'll stick by earlier post that was bolded, either will work. Figure out what you are comfortable with and use that method. I'm not trashing people who used an atty or a DIY.

I'm with Judd on this one. No one in this thread has committed any crime. If you were familiar with the Texas Penal Code, Section 38.123 you would find that you are wrong.

"Sec. 38.123. UNAUTHORIZED PRACTICE OF LAW. (a) A person commits an offense if, with intent to obtain an economic benefit for himself or herself, the person:...."

Last time I checked it wasn't illegal to give an opinion. But you're the genius attorney, why don't you school us "low information unlicensed fools" some more.

Like I also said, I'm not advocating doing it yourself, but that both options will work.

Well Judd - In the area of the law I AM a member of an elite group. That's just a pure and simple fact. Less than 0.36% of the population are licensed to practice law. I have a doctorate degree in law and have been licensed by the Texas Bar for 37 years to practice law. If you want to call me elitist I could care less.

As to the spelling lesson - the issue isn't spelling ability, it's typing ability. I have secretaries that do my typing so I am not particularity proficient at it.

As to the rest of your tirade, I suggest you read the posts on this thread carefully (including yours), and then go read the statute for yourself. I gave the section to you - so you won't even have to try to look it up. After carefully reading the statute against the posts on this thread - If you then still want to be a "shoe clerk" practicing law (low information unlicensed fool giving legal advice) - then by all means - HAVE AT IT!!!!!!

We've done this several times guys. It always ends like this. Chill and do what you want, but, butt out if someone else doesn't do it your way.

Just my

So, bluesman, was I wrong in not hiring an attorney setting up my second L.L.C. ? The first one cost me $1k paying an attorney. The second one only cost me the fee the state charges. I'm a D-I-Yer of almost everything. I rarely hire anyone to do anything. In fact, last I checked a person can represent themselves in a court of law. Your credentials and experience have been earned and I respect them. However, you may not always be the smartest person in the room, and there are plenty of guys around here that are competent enough to figure out how to set up their own trust for themselves. It's not rocket science. And if they care to guide someone along, I see no harm in the matter. Local, State, and Federal law is open for any citizen to interpret. The problem is, it is not always written in plain english that the layman can wade through the B.S. and extract the true meaning in a timely fashion. It was written by attorneys for attorneys, almost as a foreign language. Trouble is, some people are smart enough to sort it out for themselves, and do their own work. And I understand that hurts your business. No different that someone that doesn't need to hire me to weld something for them because they have a welding machine they are competent using


P.S. the term is "couldn't care less" not could care less. Guess that is not instructed in any Ph.D courses.

Read my posts again and this time try to understand them. If your post is an example of your comprehension and understanding of what I said then I would be scared as hell of any LLC you set up. In fact - law IS ROCKET SCIENCE. You just haven't figured that out yet. Do they write rocket science in plain english so the layman can wade through it - nope. Some things are just not meant to be understood by the layman. Unless one has has the training and background they are never going to understand the subject matter. It's just like my truck - I used to work on them but today I don't even try. I would love to see a layman try to fix a complicated problem with a modern vehicle - that's a FUBAR waiting to happen. I personally have not met a layman in my 37 years of practicing law that I felt was competent to create a trust and I have a lot of very successful intelligent business people as clients.

As for it hurting my business - again you need to try to read my posts and understand them. I clearly stated that I DO NOT DO GUN TRUSTS. I even indicated that I was sending a client out to a gun trust lawyer. None of this garbage nor the DIY guys effect my business at all. My law practice is highly specialized and limited to tax, estate planning, and probate work. Heck I like it when someone DIY'S their own tax and estate planning. When I get to fix the mess they created at $450.00 an hour it's like manna from heaven. Not my fault they did it themselves and screwed things up, but if you think I'm going to finance their FUBAR's or take pity on them your wrong. You reap what you sow.

As I said:

" I suggest you read the posts on this thread carefully (including yours), and then go read the statute for yourself. I gave the section to you - so you won't even have to try to look it up. After carefully reading the statute against the posts on this thread - If you then still want to be a "shoe clerk" practicing law (low information unlicensed fool giving legal advice) - then by all means - HAVE AT IT!!!!!! bang bang bang bang"

PS: It's actually "could not care less" not couldn't care less. But you need to read my post again and as I previously indicated I don't type well and don't claim too - so you don't score any points there. I have secretaries that do my typing for me and and don't need to type well. By the way - I don't proof read my posts of forums such as this and don't intend to start.

"a person can represent themselves in a court of law" Great statement. For a layperson it would be like being in a wheelchair with both hands tied behind them. Love to see you go up against a trained lawyer in a court proceeding. TOTAL WIPEOUT!! We have a saying for that in the profession also - "a person who acts as their own lawyer has a fool for a client and a fool for a lawyer" Shucks I guess that could also apply to those DIY guys that create their own trusts, couldn't it.

Personally I think Cast made the best post on this thread, so in closing, I quote:

"We've done this several times guys. It always ends like this. Chill and do what you want, but, butt out if someone else doesn't do it your way."

You've been warned, so like I said "HAVE AT IT"!!

I feel like adding some fuel...

I remeber reading a blog post that was an overview of an ATF seminar at an industry event. The ATF said someone posted there trust online as a template for people. People copied it incorrectly and didn't update the beneficiary and this lead to a person be listed as the beneficary on thousands of trusts.

I also have seen some statments that said the ATF is not reviewing the validity of trusts.

It's risk decisions. Some want the safety of an attorney. Some don't. I do know that some attorneys are making a massive amount of money off of these. But they also spend massive amounts of money to get a law degree.

I admit spelling or typing errors are most likely included in this post

Anyone used this?

A trust really isn't needed anymore since 41F passed think the forms are actually going through faster with individual submissions now that CLEO sign off isn't required. If you do a trust now everyone on it has to get finger prints and photos to send in.

So what is needed now adays?

I haven't done it since the law passed I just got one back this month 1y 3m wait on my trust. It's my 3rd suppressor and I have one SBR you'd think they'd just put people in the system and as long as nothing had changed just send them through but guess not.

Think for individual you'll just need finger prints, passport photos, and form 4 sent from FFL. Pretty easy process just the wait is stupid long.

Oh yea don't forget your $200 check made out to ATF LoL

Don't recall this thread, didn't get involved...but I saw this tonight, and I DO recall why I detest the legal "profession." What a bunch of bottom dwellers, setting up the system so that a citizen can't even preserve his own status or get justice without paying the mordida.

No. law IS NOT rocket science...it's a lot of synthetic flimflammery, that's all.

When 41F came into effect,I asked my attorney about some things. I have myself and four other people on my old trust with all of our items,and at least one of them has moved out of state. So I asked him about the legalities of a trust since I'm allowed to add or subtract people on my trust.

According to how he explained it,If I want to buy anymore Class 3 items,I can set up a new trust with only myself listed on it at the time I send it into the BATFE. After it has been approved,and my stamp comes,I'm free to add anyone onto the trust at my discretion as long as they can legally own or purchase a firearm. He said that would be perfectly legal,the BATFE can't restrict your rights to add or subtract the people on your trust.

I did just that Friday. Funny and ironic that just this afternoon I was in Bryan and discussing this exact topic with Derrick at Horizon who was the OP that started this thread two years ago.
He and I both used James Willi to do our trusts and now with the new changes I have a new trust so I wouldn't have to go to all the trouble and expense of getting finger prints of my wife and children who are on my previous trust. Just add them later as needed.

I got mine years ago from Sean Cody down in Houston. He did my trust over the phone,and emailed my trust to me in a PDF file. It was simple as hell to do it. There are cheaper ways to do a trust,but I didn't want to trust my freedom doing it that way.

But a trust allows anyone on the trust to be in possession of the NFA item. And that covers your wife having access to your gun safe.

Correct, but some people on the trust don't want to have to send in finger prints and photos. It's just a big hassle for some on your trust that don't ever really use the NFA items. If all of your trustees can get that stuff for you then a trust is no problem.

ETA: Maybe you can buy a suppressor as individual and then add it to your existing trust once it comes in. Not sure if that would work. Kind of what hillbilly said but instead of starting a new trust just add to your existing once it comes in.

No, You start a new trust with only yourself listed as a Trustee.Then after you get approved, and have the stamp for the item, you can then add other Trustee's to the new trust without them needing to supply photos and fingerprints.
As Executor of the Trust, you can add or delete who is on any trust at anytime, but you can't add Trustee's to the trust before you get approved and have the stamp.

So back to this, does this seem like a good idea? Or someone in Texas that can do trust? I know I cam diy but would rather not just looking for an answer on above questions.

I used Cole Bryan in Fort Worth. There's a lot that use Christopher Bass in Dallas. Both have done a lot of NFA Trusts and respond quickly to questions. You are going to spend more than $99 but you also get a lawyer that answers questions, concerns, legal issues, etc., in the future.

I think it takes another $200 stamp to transfer from an individual to a trust. It's basically selling it to another entity. So going straight into the trust the first time is the best way to do it.

I used Sean Cody years ago to set up my trust,He's been doing it for a long time,and can answer any questions you may have. If you use him,he will do the trust over the phone,and then send you a copy to proof by Email,once you approve it,he will send it in a PDF file that you just download. It doesn't get much easier.

http://www.texasnfatrust.com/