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SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas #8889642 07/27/23 01:14 AM
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So if I am understanding correctly the Texas state senate just quietly ended hunting on rivers in the state under this new bill. It was originally put as just a few counties but at the last second Senator Perry (former Warden) made a last second amendment to make this state wide. I am reading this wrong or has one heard differently? is there any action being taken to fight back on this?

Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: bassmastar34] #8889660 07/27/23 01:35 AM
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I don’t have a clue but I’m ok with it if it is, it’s definitely not right though.

Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: bassmastar34] #8889749 07/27/23 03:53 AM
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its doesnt restrict the land owner from hunting his land though.


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Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: bassmastar34] #8889753 07/27/23 04:02 AM
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Just restricts rifle, slugs, and arrows so should not affect waterfowl

Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: bassmastar34] #8889828 07/27/23 12:43 PM
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It’s a bs intrusion into rights.

No carrying of a shotgun with slugs or arrows on navigable waterways. This affects a few places I hunt. Some hard to access places I access by creek or river via canoe or mud boat. I assume wmas will not be effected but that is an assumption.

I primarily hunt Oklahoma public as they do better for the hunters. But this could affect hunters all over Texas.

Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: ducknbass] #8889887 07/27/23 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ducknbass
It’s a bs intrusion into rights.

No carrying of a shotgun with slugs or arrows on navigable waterways. This affects a few places I hunt. Some hard to access places I access by creek or river via canoe or mud boat. I assume wmas will not be effected but that is an assumption.

I primarily hunt Oklahoma public as they do better for the hunters. But this could affect hunters all over Texas.


I wonder if you can carry it in a case.


Bottom line, never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals.-Sen Joni Ernst
Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: bassmastar34] #8890036 07/27/23 05:19 PM
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I have no issues with it. A few bad apples brought this on doing stupid stuff hunting illegally or pushing the limits.

Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: bassmastar34] #8890147 07/27/23 07:38 PM
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Lol. Any hunter that doesn’t have issue with this is a fool. They’ll come for your rights next.

More laws is never a fix for outlaws. That’s liberal “govern me harder daddy” mindset.

Last edited by ducknbass; 07/27/23 07:39 PM.
Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: BOBO the Clown] #8890152 07/27/23 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by BOBO the Clown
Originally Posted by ducknbass
It’s a bs intrusion into rights.

No carrying of a shotgun with slugs or arrows on navigable waterways. This affects a few places I hunt. Some hard to access places I access by creek or river via canoe or mud boat. I assume wmas will not be effected but that is an assumption.

I primarily hunt Oklahoma public as they do better for the hunters. But this could affect hunters all over Texas.


I wonder if you can carry it in a case.

I would not hesitate to carry it under the conditions described above. The law covers "use" of certain firearms. No law against responsibly transporting. I did in State parks, a rifle. It wasn't carried openly. I had it in a case, in a backpack. This made it legal, as stated it could not be carried openly. A violation would be if you used/hunted with it.

There's a great, informative thread on this new law in the Open Hunting thread.


An unethical shot is one you take, that you know you shouldn't.
Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: DUKFVR] #8890155 07/27/23 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by DUKFVR
I have no issues with it. A few bad apples brought this on doing stupid stuff hunting illegally or pushing the limits.

The game warden that works the Pease river, 25 years, 60 miles of river wrote two tickets to public hunters in all that time. These violations were for non compliance with Hunter Education certification.


An unethical shot is one you take, that you know you shouldn't.
Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #8890188 07/27/23 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson
Originally Posted by DUKFVR
I have no issues with it. A few bad apples brought this on doing stupid stuff hunting illegally or pushing the limits.

The game warden that works the Pease river, 25 years, 60 miles of river wrote two tickets to public hunters in all that time. These violations were for non compliance with Hunter Education certification.


The trouble is around bigger towns or metro areas.

Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: DUKFVR] #8891415 07/29/23 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by DUKFVR
Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson
Originally Posted by DUKFVR
I have no issues with it. A few bad apples brought this on doing stupid stuff hunting illegally or pushing the limits.

The game warden that works the Pease river, 25 years, 60 miles of river wrote two tickets to public hunters in all that time. These violations were for non compliance with Hunter Education certification.


The trouble is around bigger towns or metro areas.


I’m willing to bet this has more to do with the king ranch than metro areas.

Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: bassmastar34] #8891438 07/29/23 07:17 PM
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Soooo....what if the hunter owns that land on both sides of the creek/stream/navigable body of water?

Are they restricted from hunting on the water with a rifle/bow/shotgun-slug?

If so, that is BS.


Make America Great Again

Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: bassmastar34] #8891463 07/29/23 08:00 PM
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https://legiscan.com/TX/text/SB1236/2023

I had to cut from a screen shot to show the line through changes and underlined new text change from the original.

[Linked Image]

Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: Tbar] #8891467 07/29/23 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Tbar
Soooo....what if the hunter owns that land on both sides of the creek/stream/navigable body of water?

Are they restricted from hunting on the water with a rifle/bow/shotgun-slug?

If so, that is BS.


I read the only provision for an adjacent landowner is to shoot a venomous snake or nonindigenous rodent. Or alligator as you would have to be on the private bank to shoot an alligator on public water anyway.

Looks like shotgun with shot is still allowed and bowfishing with bowfishing equipment. Slug would be a no as it is not "shot".

I could not find the TPWD definition of "shot", but the Outdoor annual is a summary of TPWD code and other laws so the current outdoor annual would have been taken from the same bill before it was just amended. Below would be that part in the outdoor annual before this change coming up Sept 1. A slug was never considered to be "shot" before, so would not now. Buckshot may or may not still be legal as "shot", but you would have to ask TPWD on that. And on any of this for that matter. All is just my common sense opinion of what I am reading in the bill.

From current outdoor annual:
"discharge a firearm or shoot an arrow in or on the bed or bank of a navigable stream in Dimmit, Edwards, Frio, Hall, Kenedy, Llano, Maverick, Real, Uvalde, or Zavala counties. This law does not apply to persons fishing by means of archery equipment or shotguns loaded with shot, including buckshot. A shotgun slug is prohibited."

Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: bassmastar34] #8891558 07/29/23 11:47 PM
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https://lonestaroutdoorshow.com/202...b-1236-stripping-texans-hunting-rights/#

It was mentioned by a GW interview on the above link that you can still hunt deer with buckshot. I do find that odd in that they removed the use by bow but you can still use a shotgun with buckshot. I think in the short term, the publicity of this will increase the number of hunters short term on a given river using buckshot to hunt deer and hogs and using shotguns for other game. Many had no idea you could hunt our river beds this way, but with all the publicity they will now.

Best I can tell, it looks like the amendment to change this from a few counties to the entire state was only about a month before it was signed and passed. And added only after the public comment period so few even knew about the change. If one could follow the money I would not be surprised if a state legislator or two received some significant campaign donations from one or more wealthy state landowners in exchange for slipping this through at the last minute.

Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: bassmastar34] #8891578 07/30/23 12:24 AM
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Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: ntxtrapper] #8891584 07/30/23 12:31 AM
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Know that the one posted at the start of that thread may be before it was amended. There are no longer any counties listed like that one. They should be lined through.

Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: Tbar] #8891645 07/30/23 02:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Tbar
Soooo....what if the hunter owns that land on both sides of the creek/stream/navigable body of water?

Are they restricted from hunting on the water with a rifle/bow/shotgun-slug?

If so, that is BS.


Yes it's illegal if they are on the water (floating). It's now only legal if they're using a shotgun with shot.

It was already illegal to hunt everything but waterfowl from public water. This has been the law for a long time.

It is unlawful to hunt any wild animal or wild bird, including exotic animals, on foot or from a vehicle on any public road or road right- of-way, or a boat on public water, except that migratory waterfowl may be hunted from a boat or any floating craft (except a sinkbox) under certain conditions.-TPWD Outdoor Annual

Also you can't legally hunt flooded posted private land without landowner permission, but you can legally float over it.

It is unlawful to hunt any wild animal or wild bird on or over privately-owned land that is submerged under public freshwater due to seasonal or occasional inundation or submerged under saltwater above the mean high tide line. The property must be posted to indicate that hunting is prohibited.-TPWD Outdoor Annual

Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: DRUNK] #8891732 07/30/23 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by DRUNK


It was already illegal to hunt everything but waterfowl from public water. This has been the law for a long time.

It is unlawful to hunt any wild animal or wild bird, including exotic animals, on foot or from a vehicle on any public road or road right- of-way, or a boat on public water, except that migratory waterfowl may be hunted from a boat or any floating craft (except a sinkbox) under certain conditions.-TPWD Outdoor Annual



This part is interesting. That is incorrect that this has been law for a long time. Some years ago the regulation and wording was changed from "waterfowl" to "migratory game" in that "except for migratory" part. I did get written clarification from TPWD law enforcement at the time. A good example would be those that pole for Rails from a boat. I just looked at TPWD Code and the way it is written in there does not indicate shooting "migratory birds" from a floating craft as prohibited. It does not separate waterfowl from migratory. Under migratory it specifically says it is legal if not covered under prohibited acts and there is no distinction between the two within the prohibited acts as far as the on water part. It only separates the two when talking about non toxic shot. I know the outdoor annual is a summary of all regulations state and federal, but I can't find where they are getting the "except that migratory waterfowl" when TPWD code indicates it should read "except that migratory game birds" unless there is another regulation somewhere else federal or state that they are pulling that from.

Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: Tbar] #8892156 07/31/23 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Tbar
Soooo....what if the hunter owns that land on both sides of the creek/stream/navigable body of water?

Are they restricted from hunting on the water with a rifle/bow/shotgun-slug?

If so, that is BS.

See Section C, 5 A. Doesn't apply to them at all.


An unethical shot is one you take, that you know you shouldn't.
Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #8892419 07/31/23 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson
Originally Posted by Tbar
Soooo....what if the hunter owns that land on both sides of the creek/stream/navigable body of water?

Are they restricted from hunting on the water with a rifle/bow/shotgun-slug?

If so, that is BS.

See Section C, 5 A. Doesn't apply to them at all.


^^^^^


Interesting (as written). I didn't catch that when reading it previously.

I would have thought the Land Owner would be subject to the same restrictions as the public once they reached the Gradient Boundary (when standing upon their own land). It just occurs from a different position. BUT...that is not what it states per the bill (as written).

Rather... it suggests the Land Owner (or agent) is exempt from the restrictions in the Bill altogether.

That sheds a little different light on it for me.


Spartans ask not...how many, but where!
Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: flintknapper] #8892747 07/31/23 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by flintknapper
Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson
Originally Posted by Tbar
Soooo....what if the hunter owns that land on both sides of the creek/stream/navigable body of water?

Are they restricted from hunting on the water with a rifle/bow/shotgun-slug?

If so, that is BS.

See Section C, 5 A. Doesn't apply to them at all.


^^^^^


Interesting (as written). I didn't catch that when reading it previously.

I would have thought the Land Owner would be subject to the same restrictions as the public once they reached the Gradient Boundary (when standing upon their own land). It just occurs from a different position. BUT...that is not what it states per the bill (as written).

Rather... it suggests the Land Owner (or agent) is exempt from the restrictions in the Bill altogether.

That sheds a little different light on it for me.

That has been my contention all along. The land within the Gradient Boundary is public, but land owners get to use it an enhanced manner over the general public. It doesn't suggest it at all, clearly states that it does not apply to them.

Last edited by onlysmith&wesson; 07/31/23 09:19 PM.

An unethical shot is one you take, that you know you shouldn't.
Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: bassmastar34] #8892813 07/31/23 10:49 PM
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Who woulda thought that the land grab was a thing. Wonder if the landowner's hunting lease people are granted the same immunity. They always were before. I think this is worthwhile as a court case against the state of Texas, abuse of power.

Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: Sniper John] #8892816 07/31/23 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Sniper John
https://lonestaroutdoorshow.com/202...b-1236-stripping-texans-hunting-rights/#

It was mentioned by a GW interview on the above link that you can still hunt deer with buckshot. I do find that odd in that they removed the use by bow but you can still use a shotgun with buckshot. I think in the short term, the publicity of this will increase the number of hunters short term on a given river using buckshot to hunt deer and hogs and using shotguns for other game. Many had no idea you could hunt our river beds this way, but with all the publicity they will now.

Best I can tell, it looks like the amendment to change this from a few counties to the entire state was only about a month before it was signed and passed. And added only after the public comment period so few even knew about the change. If one could follow the money I would not be surprised if a state legislator or two received some significant campaign donations from one or more wealthy state landowners in exchange for slipping this through at the last minute.


You have impressed me with your grasp. I take any negative things I might have posted to you back.

Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: bassmastar34] #8892821 07/31/23 11:05 PM
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As a younger guy I used to hunt feral hogs in the Brazos river bottoms for feral hogs. Never for deer. It was great getting out on the bottoms, camping out, canoeing, hunting and fishing. Incredible to think that there are jackasses out there that want to ruin this for rifle hunting. Pretty sure a bunch of communication with the Abbott crew might get it changed. Then again the rich ole boy network is well funded. Would any of you actually speak up?

Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: rickt300] #8892940 08/01/23 02:05 AM
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Originally Posted by rickt300
Who woulda thought that the land grab was a thing. Wonder if the landowner's hunting lease people are granted the same immunity. They always were before. I think this is worthwhile as a court case against the state of Texas, abuse of power.

It would convey to those that lease from owner, they would be "agent of".


An unethical shot is one you take, that you know you shouldn't.
Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #8892976 08/01/23 03:21 AM
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Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson
Originally Posted by rickt300
Who woulda thought that the land grab was a thing. Wonder if the landowner's hunting lease people are granted the same immunity. They always were before. I think this is worthwhile as a court case against the state of Texas, abuse of power.

It would convey to those that lease from owner, they would be "agent of".



I don't think by virtue of the 'lease' arrangement itself....but the Land Owner certainly retains the right to assign any or all members an 'agent' status.

Just anything in writing would do.


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Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: flintknapper] #8893018 08/01/23 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by flintknapper
Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson
Originally Posted by Tbar
Soooo....what if the hunter owns that land on both sides of the creek/stream/navigable body of water?

Are they restricted from hunting on the water with a rifle/bow/shotgun-slug?

If so, that is BS.

See Section C, 5 A. Doesn't apply to them at all.


^^^^^


Interesting (as written). I didn't catch that when reading it previously.

I would have thought the Land Owner would be subject to the same restrictions as the public once they reached the Gradient Boundary (when standing upon their own land). It just occurs from a different position. BUT...that is not what it states per the bill (as written).

Rather... it suggests the Land Owner (or agent) is exempt from the restrictions in the Bill altogether.

That sheds a little different light on it for me.



Where are you seeing that a landowner or agent is exempt altogether? Looking at C 5 A from the bill. I read that is it allows the landowner or his agent of the land adjacent to shoot venomous snakes or nonindigenous rodents and only those animals from the bank or bed of stream. https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/88R/analysis/html/SB01236F.htm


SECTION 1. Transfers Section 284.001, Parks and Wildlife Code, to Subchapter B, Chapter 1, Parks and Wildlife Code, redesignates it as Section 1.014, Parks and Wildlife Code, and amends it as follows:
Sec. 1.014. New heading: USE OF CERTAIN WEAPONS IN OR ON BED OR BANK OF NAVIGABLE RIVER OR STREAM PROHIBITED.
(a) Makes no changes to this subsection.
(b) Redesignates existing Subsection (c) as Subsection (b) and creates an exception under Subsection (c), rather than Subsection (d).
(c) Provides that this section does not apply to:
(1) makes no change to this subdivision;
(2) makes a nonsubstantive change to this subdivision;
(3) an individual engaging in fishing using archery equipment, if the individual is in compliance with Subsection (e), rather than Subsection (f);
(4) the discharge of a firearm during the legal taking of an alligator; or
(5) the discharge of a firearm from the bank of a navigable river or stream to take a venomous snake or nonindigenous rodent by:
(A) an owner of the land adjacent to or through which the navigable river or stream runs; or
(B) an agent of an owner described by Paragraph (A).

Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: Sniper John] #8893029 08/01/23 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Sniper John
Originally Posted by flintknapper
Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson
Originally Posted by Tbar
Soooo....what if the hunter owns that land on both sides of the creek/stream/navigable body of water?

Are they restricted from hunting on the water with a rifle/bow/shotgun-slug?

If so, that is BS.

See Section C, 5 A. Doesn't apply to them at all.


^^^^^


Interesting (as written). I didn't catch that when reading it previously.

I would have thought the Land Owner would be subject to the same restrictions as the public once they reached the Gradient Boundary (when standing upon their own land). It just occurs from a different position. BUT...that is not what it states per the bill (as written).

Rather... it suggests the Land Owner (or agent) is exempt from the restrictions in the Bill altogether.

That sheds a little different light on it for me.



Where are you seeing that a landowner or agent is exempt altogether? Looking at C 5 A from the bill. I read that is it allows the landowner or his agent of the land adjacent to shoot venomous snakes or nonindigenous rodents and only those animals from the bank or bed of stream. https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/88R/analysis/html/SB01236F.htm


SECTION 1. Transfers Section 284.001, Parks and Wildlife Code, to Subchapter B, Chapter 1, Parks and Wildlife Code, redesignates it as Section 1.014, Parks and Wildlife Code, and amends it as follows:
Sec. 1.014. New heading: USE OF CERTAIN WEAPONS IN OR ON BED OR BANK OF NAVIGABLE RIVER OR STREAM PROHIBITED.
(a) Makes no changes to this subsection.
(b) Redesignates existing Subsection (c) as Subsection (b) and creates an exception under Subsection (c), rather than Subsection (d).
(c) Provides that this section does not apply to:
(1) makes no change to this subdivision;
(2) makes a nonsubstantive change to this subdivision;
(3) an individual engaging in fishing using archery equipment, if the individual is in compliance with Subsection (e), rather than Subsection (f);
(4) the discharge of a firearm during the legal taking of an alligator; or
(5) the discharge of a firearm from the bank of a navigable river or stream to take a venomous snake or nonindigenous rodent by:
(A) an owner of the land adjacent to or through which the navigable river or stream runs; or
(B) an agent of an owner described by Paragraph (A).

You may be right, but what you have referenced here isn't the final bill, but an "analysis" of the bill. What I was reading had strike throughs and mark ups that removed the specific counties and what I thought were exclusions but may have been underlined portions. Maybe someone can find the final bill with no strike through marks or underlined portions.


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Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: Sniper John] #8893073 08/01/23 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Sniper John
Originally Posted by flintknapper
Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson
Originally Posted by Tbar
Soooo....what if the hunter owns that land on both sides of the creek/stream/navigable body of water?

Are they restricted from hunting on the water with a rifle/bow/shotgun-slug?

If so, that is BS.

See Section C, 5 A. Doesn't apply to them at all.


^^^^^


Interesting (as written). I didn't catch that when reading it previously.

I would have thought the Land Owner would be subject to the same restrictions as the public once they reached the Gradient Boundary (when standing upon their own land). It just occurs from a different position. BUT...that is not what it states per the bill (as written).

Rather... it suggests the Land Owner (or agent) is exempt from the restrictions in the Bill altogether.

That sheds a little different light on it for me.



Where are you seeing that a landowner or agent is exempt altogether? Looking at C 5 A from the bill. I read that is it allows the landowner or his agent of the land adjacent to shoot venomous snakes or nonindigenous rodents and only those animals from the bank or bed of stream. https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/88R/analysis/html/SB01236F.htm


SECTION 1. Transfers Section 284.001, Parks and Wildlife Code, to Subchapter B, Chapter 1, Parks and Wildlife Code, redesignates it as Section 1.014, Parks and Wildlife Code, and amends it as follows:
Sec. 1.014. New heading: USE OF CERTAIN WEAPONS IN OR ON BED OR BANK OF NAVIGABLE RIVER OR STREAM PROHIBITED.
(a) Makes no changes to this subsection.
(b) Redesignates existing Subsection (c) as Subsection (b) and creates an exception under Subsection (c), rather than Subsection (d).
(c) Provides that this section does not apply to:
(1) makes no change to this subdivision;
(2) makes a nonsubstantive change to this subdivision;
(3) an individual engaging in fishing using archery equipment, if the individual is in compliance with Subsection (e), rather than Subsection (f);
(4) the discharge of a firearm during the legal taking of an alligator; or
(5) the discharge of a firearm from the bank of a navigable river or stream to take a venomous snake or nonindigenous rodent by:
(A) an owner of the land adjacent to or through which the navigable river or stream runs; or
(B) an agent of an owner described by Paragraph (A).



Yes, I see what you are saying now.

(5) Sets the condition and (A/B) limits WHO may be excluded.

So basically the Land Owner (or Agent) may shoot from anywhere on the bank, a venomous snake or non-indigenous rodent (I assume a Nutria) whereas the non-land owner may only do so from within the Gradient Boundary.

It is NOT Carte Blanche for the Land Owner (or agent) with respect to hunting game. Which would be in keeping with my original thought that the L/O could only use their land (and legal weapons) down to the GB line. At which point they would be subject to the same restrictions as the public (except as noted above for the snakes/rodents).

I suppose this throws a bone to the Land Owner for the purposes of controlling certain unwanted species.


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Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: bassmastar34] #8893124 08/01/23 01:31 PM
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^ Interesting. So, no one gets to hunt this huge swath of land with a rifle? This gets to be a real mess making it unenforceable. I'm a land owner, I'm on my private land, I see a great buck standing in the middle of the dry river bed. I shoot it. I can retrieve it without trespassing. I don't see a game warden citing me for shooting across a property line for shooting into the gradient boundary due to the ambiguity of the property line. What a cluster.


An unethical shot is one you take, that you know you shouldn't.
Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #8893234 08/01/23 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson
^ Interesting. So, no one gets to hunt this huge swath of land with a rifle? This gets to be a real mess making it unenforceable. I'm a land owner, I'm on my private land, I see a great buck standing in the middle of the dry river bed. I shoot it. I can retrieve it without trespassing. I don't see a game warden citing me for shooting across a property line for shooting into the gradient boundary due to the ambiguity of the property line. What a cluster.

^^^^^^

Yep.

'Gradient Boundary' by itself is difficult to establish (in the field) per the letter of the law. It would literally take a surveyor to accurately pin-point the boundary line in any kind of dispute.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

I have no proof....but I suspect all these years....(in practice) it has gone more like this:

1. Land Owner (if not owning the land on both sides of the navigable stream) could simply shoot anywhere on their property AND down into the stream bed....not to exceed the bank on the far side (other peoples property).

2. John Q. Public hunting the public stream....limits shots from the stream bed up to the readily identifiable 'High Bank' which logically represents the private property line. Not legal but easier to identify a 'hard' boundary than a half way point.

In the past....the Land Owner was free to use his property and the public property of the stream as long he/she didn't do anything to exclude the public's use of it.

The 'public' was limited to using only the public part of the stream (Gradient Boundary).

With the new law (effective Sept. 1st 2023) neither party will be able to lawfully hunt the public part of the stream except as stated in the Senate
Bill with respect to weapons limitations.

The Land Owner can no longer sit on their own property with a Grandson/Granddaughter and 'plink' at sticks floating by in the stream because use of a .22 lr (or ammo impact) would not be legal below the Gradient Boundary. Thank You Texas legislators.


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Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: flintknapper] #8893305 08/01/23 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by flintknapper
Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson
^ Interesting. So, no one gets to hunt this huge swath of land with a rifle? This gets to be a real mess making it unenforceable. I'm a land owner, I'm on my private land, I see a great buck standing in the middle of the dry river bed. I shoot it. I can retrieve it without trespassing. I don't see a game warden citing me for shooting across a property line for shooting into the gradient boundary due to the ambiguity of the property line. What a cluster.

^^^^^^

Yep.

'Gradient Boundary' by itself is difficult to establish (in the field) per the letter of the law. It would literally take a surveyor to accurately pin-point the boundary line in any kind of dispute.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

I have no proof....but I suspect all these years....(in practice) it has gone more like this:

1. Land Owner (if not owning the land on both sides of the navigable stream) could simply shoot anywhere on their property AND down into the stream bed....not to exceed the bank on the far side (other peoples property).

2. John Q. Public hunting the public stream....limits shots from the stream bed up to the readily identifiable 'High Bank' which logically represents the private property line. Not legal but easier to identify a 'hard' boundary than a half way point.

In the past....the Land Owner was free to use his property and the public property of the stream as long he/she didn't do anything to exclude the public's use of it.

The 'public' was limited to using only the public part of the stream (Gradient Boundary).

With the new law (effective Sept. 1st 2023) neither party will be able to lawfully hunt the public part of the stream except as stated in the Senate
Bill with respect to weapons limitations.

The Land Owner can no longer sit on their own property with a Grandson/Granddaughter and 'plink' at sticks floating by in the stream because use of a .22 lr (or ammo impact) would not be legal below the Gradient Boundary. Thank You Texas legislators.





What's the violation? Trespass by projectile?


An unethical shot is one you take, that you know you shouldn't.
Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #8893323 08/01/23 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson
Originally Posted by flintknapper
Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson
^ Interesting. So, no one gets to hunt this huge swath of land with a rifle? This gets to be a real mess making it unenforceable. I'm a land owner, I'm on my private land, I see a great buck standing in the middle of the dry river bed. I shoot it. I can retrieve it without trespassing. I don't see a game warden citing me for shooting across a property line for shooting into the gradient boundary due to the ambiguity of the property line. What a cluster.

^^^^^^

Yep.

'Gradient Boundary' by itself is difficult to establish (in the field) per the letter of the law. It would literally take a surveyor to accurately pin-point the boundary line in any kind of dispute.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

I have no proof....but I suspect all these years....(in practice) it has gone more like this:

1. Land Owner (if not owning the land on both sides of the navigable stream) could simply shoot anywhere on their property AND down into the stream bed....not to exceed the bank on the far side (other peoples property).

2. John Q. Public hunting the public stream....limits shots from the stream bed up to the readily identifiable 'High Bank' which logically represents the private property line. Not legal but easier to identify a 'hard' boundary than a half way point.

In the past....the Land Owner was free to use his property and the public property of the stream as long he/she didn't do anything to exclude the public's use of it.

The 'public' was limited to using only the public part of the stream (Gradient Boundary).

With the new law (effective Sept. 1st 2023) neither party will be able to lawfully hunt the public part of the stream except as stated in the Senate
Bill with respect to weapons limitations.

The Land Owner can no longer sit on their own property with a Grandson/Granddaughter and 'plink' at sticks floating by in the stream because use of a .22 lr (or ammo impact) would not be legal below the Gradient Boundary. Thank You Texas legislators.





What's the violation? Trespass by projectile?



Or something like that....it would seem:

Quote
Except as provided by Subsection (c) [(d)], a person
may not discharge a firearm or shoot an arrow from any kind of bow
if:
(1) the person is located in or on the bed or bank of a
navigable river or stream at the time the firearm is discharged or
the arrow is shot from the bow; or
(2) any portion of the ammunition discharged or arrow
shot could physically contact the bed or bank of a navigable river
or stream
.


[img]https://legiscan.com/TX/text/SB1236/id/2819525[/img]


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Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: flintknapper] #8893338 08/01/23 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by flintknapper
Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson
Originally Posted by flintknapper
Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson
^ Interesting. So, no one gets to hunt this huge swath of land with a rifle? This gets to be a real mess making it unenforceable. I'm a land owner, I'm on my private land, I see a great buck standing in the middle of the dry river bed. I shoot it. I can retrieve it without trespassing. I don't see a game warden citing me for shooting across a property line for shooting into the gradient boundary due to the ambiguity of the property line. What a cluster.

^^^^^^

Yep.

'Gradient Boundary' by itself is difficult to establish (in the field) per the letter of the law. It would literally take a surveyor to accurately pin-point the boundary line in any kind of dispute.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

I have no proof....but I suspect all these years....(in practice) it has gone more like this:

1. Land Owner (if not owning the land on both sides of the navigable stream) could simply shoot anywhere on their property AND down into the stream bed....not to exceed the bank on the far side (other peoples property).

2. John Q. Public hunting the public stream....limits shots from the stream bed up to the readily identifiable 'High Bank' which logically represents the private property line. Not legal but easier to identify a 'hard' boundary than a half way point.

In the past....the Land Owner was free to use his property and the public property of the stream as long he/she didn't do anything to exclude the public's use of it.

The 'public' was limited to using only the public part of the stream (Gradient Boundary).

With the new law (effective Sept. 1st 2023) neither party will be able to lawfully hunt the public part of the stream except as stated in the Senate
Bill with respect to weapons limitations.

The Land Owner can no longer sit on their own property with a Grandson/Granddaughter and 'plink' at sticks floating by in the stream because use of a .22 lr (or ammo impact) would not be legal below the Gradient Boundary. Thank You Texas legislators.





What's the violation? Trespass by projectile?



Or something like that....it would seem:

Quote
Except as provided by Subsection (c) [(d)], a person
may not discharge a firearm or shoot an arrow from any kind of bow
if:
(1) the person is located in or on the bed or bank of a
navigable river or stream at the time the firearm is discharged or
the arrow is shot from the bow; or
(2) any portion of the ammunition discharged or arrow
shot could physically contact the bed or bank of a navigable river
or stream
.


[img]https://legiscan.com/TX/text/SB1236/id/2819525[/img]


So you're good if you get a pass through shot and it impacts your land on the opposite side, or no pass through, or GW can't find impact of pass through..........Like I said, a real cluster.


An unethical shot is one you take, that you know you shouldn't.
Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #8893362 08/01/23 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson

What's the violation? Trespass by projectile?


When the Bill was signed, this became a law. The bill or law created by it is not a summary of other laws or regulations. It is it's own law and so would be a violation of the law we are discussing.. We were just discussing section C 5 a. Scroll on down past a to f and g.

(f) Provides that a person who violates this section commits an offense that is a Class C Parks and Wildlife Code misdemeanor.

(g) Authorizes the actor, if conduct that constitutes an offense under this section also constitutes an offense under Title 7 (Local and Special Laws), to be prosecuted under this section or the other law, but not both.

As above in (g) the title 7 laws are still on the books for the original counties and as read they allow someone to be charged with either one, but not both.
https://law.justia.com/codes/texas/2015/parks-and-wildlife-code/title-7/chapter-284/

Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #8893400 08/01/23 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson


So you're good if you get a pass through shot and it impacts your land on the opposite side, or no pass through, or GW can't find impact of pass through..........Like I said, a real cluster.



grin

Yeah, pretty much. If I understand the fine points correctly.

Personally, if I were a Game Warden I would NEVER patrol such areas and unless just called out on a case....I'd try to avoid the 'cluster' altogether.

No doubt... they have more important things to investigate.


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Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: bassmastar34] #9037969 04/24/24 02:15 AM
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Has there been any change to this? Anyone actually talk to local warden etc asking for enforcement guidelines on this? etc

Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: bassmastar34] #9063159 06/17/24 06:52 PM
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The new law effectively takes away the alibi for individuals using a river as ingress and egress to hunt amid private property they otherwise have no business hunting. It closes a loophole. It is highly unlikely this new law will be used to harass a landowner who owns the property on both sides of the stream. Good law if you are a private landowner. Bad law if you have been using stream beds to hull out private property you otherwise do not have permission to hunt.


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Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: Smokey Bear] #9064089 06/19/24 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Smokey Bear
The new law effectively takes away the alibi for individuals using a river as ingress and egress to hunt amid private property they otherwise have no business hunting. It closes a loophole. It is highly unlikely this new law will be used to harass a landowner who owns the property on both sides of the stream. Good law if you are a private landowner. Bad law if you have been using stream beds to hull out private property you otherwise do not have permission to hunt.


Stupid comment. Not a good law for those who legally hunted riverbottoms. Another land grab by landowners.

Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: Smokey Bear] #9069540 06/29/24 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Smokey Bear
The new law effectively takes away the alibi for individuals using a river as ingress and egress to hunt amid private property they otherwise have no business hunting. It closes a loophole. It is highly unlikely this new law will be used to harass a landowner who owns the property on both sides of the stream. Good law if you are a private landowner. Bad law if you have been using stream beds to hull out private property you otherwise do not have permission to hunt.


Wow! The stream bed is public property not private. This is saying you have significant restrictions on hunting public land. But as long as you have land that adjoins the public land you don’t have to abide by the restrictions while hunting on that public land. That makes no sense. It’s still the same public land.

Last edited by Erny; 06/29/24 09:24 PM.
Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: bassmastar34] #9070546 07/02/24 04:52 AM
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Know someone in Williamson county who a big chunk of their property is no longer legally huntable because of this rule. They are going to ignore it, its going to be very difficult to enforce.

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