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Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: bassmastar34] #8892821 07/31/23 11:05 PM
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As a younger guy I used to hunt feral hogs in the Brazos river bottoms for feral hogs. Never for deer. It was great getting out on the bottoms, camping out, canoeing, hunting and fishing. Incredible to think that there are jackasses out there that want to ruin this for rifle hunting. Pretty sure a bunch of communication with the Abbott crew might get it changed. Then again the rich ole boy network is well funded. Would any of you actually speak up?

Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: rickt300] #8892940 08/01/23 02:05 AM
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Originally Posted by rickt300
Who woulda thought that the land grab was a thing. Wonder if the landowner's hunting lease people are granted the same immunity. They always were before. I think this is worthwhile as a court case against the state of Texas, abuse of power.

It would convey to those that lease from owner, they would be "agent of".


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Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #8892976 08/01/23 03:21 AM
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Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson
Originally Posted by rickt300
Who woulda thought that the land grab was a thing. Wonder if the landowner's hunting lease people are granted the same immunity. They always were before. I think this is worthwhile as a court case against the state of Texas, abuse of power.

It would convey to those that lease from owner, they would be "agent of".



I don't think by virtue of the 'lease' arrangement itself....but the Land Owner certainly retains the right to assign any or all members an 'agent' status.

Just anything in writing would do.


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Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: flintknapper] #8893018 08/01/23 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by flintknapper
Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson
Originally Posted by Tbar
Soooo....what if the hunter owns that land on both sides of the creek/stream/navigable body of water?

Are they restricted from hunting on the water with a rifle/bow/shotgun-slug?

If so, that is BS.

See Section C, 5 A. Doesn't apply to them at all.


^^^^^


Interesting (as written). I didn't catch that when reading it previously.

I would have thought the Land Owner would be subject to the same restrictions as the public once they reached the Gradient Boundary (when standing upon their own land). It just occurs from a different position. BUT...that is not what it states per the bill (as written).

Rather... it suggests the Land Owner (or agent) is exempt from the restrictions in the Bill altogether.

That sheds a little different light on it for me.



Where are you seeing that a landowner or agent is exempt altogether? Looking at C 5 A from the bill. I read that is it allows the landowner or his agent of the land adjacent to shoot venomous snakes or nonindigenous rodents and only those animals from the bank or bed of stream. https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/88R/analysis/html/SB01236F.htm


SECTION 1. Transfers Section 284.001, Parks and Wildlife Code, to Subchapter B, Chapter 1, Parks and Wildlife Code, redesignates it as Section 1.014, Parks and Wildlife Code, and amends it as follows:
Sec. 1.014. New heading: USE OF CERTAIN WEAPONS IN OR ON BED OR BANK OF NAVIGABLE RIVER OR STREAM PROHIBITED.
(a) Makes no changes to this subsection.
(b) Redesignates existing Subsection (c) as Subsection (b) and creates an exception under Subsection (c), rather than Subsection (d).
(c) Provides that this section does not apply to:
(1) makes no change to this subdivision;
(2) makes a nonsubstantive change to this subdivision;
(3) an individual engaging in fishing using archery equipment, if the individual is in compliance with Subsection (e), rather than Subsection (f);
(4) the discharge of a firearm during the legal taking of an alligator; or
(5) the discharge of a firearm from the bank of a navigable river or stream to take a venomous snake or nonindigenous rodent by:
(A) an owner of the land adjacent to or through which the navigable river or stream runs; or
(B) an agent of an owner described by Paragraph (A).

Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: Sniper John] #8893029 08/01/23 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Sniper John
Originally Posted by flintknapper
Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson
Originally Posted by Tbar
Soooo....what if the hunter owns that land on both sides of the creek/stream/navigable body of water?

Are they restricted from hunting on the water with a rifle/bow/shotgun-slug?

If so, that is BS.

See Section C, 5 A. Doesn't apply to them at all.


^^^^^


Interesting (as written). I didn't catch that when reading it previously.

I would have thought the Land Owner would be subject to the same restrictions as the public once they reached the Gradient Boundary (when standing upon their own land). It just occurs from a different position. BUT...that is not what it states per the bill (as written).

Rather... it suggests the Land Owner (or agent) is exempt from the restrictions in the Bill altogether.

That sheds a little different light on it for me.



Where are you seeing that a landowner or agent is exempt altogether? Looking at C 5 A from the bill. I read that is it allows the landowner or his agent of the land adjacent to shoot venomous snakes or nonindigenous rodents and only those animals from the bank or bed of stream. https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/88R/analysis/html/SB01236F.htm


SECTION 1. Transfers Section 284.001, Parks and Wildlife Code, to Subchapter B, Chapter 1, Parks and Wildlife Code, redesignates it as Section 1.014, Parks and Wildlife Code, and amends it as follows:
Sec. 1.014. New heading: USE OF CERTAIN WEAPONS IN OR ON BED OR BANK OF NAVIGABLE RIVER OR STREAM PROHIBITED.
(a) Makes no changes to this subsection.
(b) Redesignates existing Subsection (c) as Subsection (b) and creates an exception under Subsection (c), rather than Subsection (d).
(c) Provides that this section does not apply to:
(1) makes no change to this subdivision;
(2) makes a nonsubstantive change to this subdivision;
(3) an individual engaging in fishing using archery equipment, if the individual is in compliance with Subsection (e), rather than Subsection (f);
(4) the discharge of a firearm during the legal taking of an alligator; or
(5) the discharge of a firearm from the bank of a navigable river or stream to take a venomous snake or nonindigenous rodent by:
(A) an owner of the land adjacent to or through which the navigable river or stream runs; or
(B) an agent of an owner described by Paragraph (A).

You may be right, but what you have referenced here isn't the final bill, but an "analysis" of the bill. What I was reading had strike throughs and mark ups that removed the specific counties and what I thought were exclusions but may have been underlined portions. Maybe someone can find the final bill with no strike through marks or underlined portions.


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Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: Sniper John] #8893073 08/01/23 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Sniper John
Originally Posted by flintknapper
Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson
Originally Posted by Tbar
Soooo....what if the hunter owns that land on both sides of the creek/stream/navigable body of water?

Are they restricted from hunting on the water with a rifle/bow/shotgun-slug?

If so, that is BS.

See Section C, 5 A. Doesn't apply to them at all.


^^^^^


Interesting (as written). I didn't catch that when reading it previously.

I would have thought the Land Owner would be subject to the same restrictions as the public once they reached the Gradient Boundary (when standing upon their own land). It just occurs from a different position. BUT...that is not what it states per the bill (as written).

Rather... it suggests the Land Owner (or agent) is exempt from the restrictions in the Bill altogether.

That sheds a little different light on it for me.



Where are you seeing that a landowner or agent is exempt altogether? Looking at C 5 A from the bill. I read that is it allows the landowner or his agent of the land adjacent to shoot venomous snakes or nonindigenous rodents and only those animals from the bank or bed of stream. https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/88R/analysis/html/SB01236F.htm


SECTION 1. Transfers Section 284.001, Parks and Wildlife Code, to Subchapter B, Chapter 1, Parks and Wildlife Code, redesignates it as Section 1.014, Parks and Wildlife Code, and amends it as follows:
Sec. 1.014. New heading: USE OF CERTAIN WEAPONS IN OR ON BED OR BANK OF NAVIGABLE RIVER OR STREAM PROHIBITED.
(a) Makes no changes to this subsection.
(b) Redesignates existing Subsection (c) as Subsection (b) and creates an exception under Subsection (c), rather than Subsection (d).
(c) Provides that this section does not apply to:
(1) makes no change to this subdivision;
(2) makes a nonsubstantive change to this subdivision;
(3) an individual engaging in fishing using archery equipment, if the individual is in compliance with Subsection (e), rather than Subsection (f);
(4) the discharge of a firearm during the legal taking of an alligator; or
(5) the discharge of a firearm from the bank of a navigable river or stream to take a venomous snake or nonindigenous rodent by:
(A) an owner of the land adjacent to or through which the navigable river or stream runs; or
(B) an agent of an owner described by Paragraph (A).



Yes, I see what you are saying now.

(5) Sets the condition and (A/B) limits WHO may be excluded.

So basically the Land Owner (or Agent) may shoot from anywhere on the bank, a venomous snake or non-indigenous rodent (I assume a Nutria) whereas the non-land owner may only do so from within the Gradient Boundary.

It is NOT Carte Blanche for the Land Owner (or agent) with respect to hunting game. Which would be in keeping with my original thought that the L/O could only use their land (and legal weapons) down to the GB line. At which point they would be subject to the same restrictions as the public (except as noted above for the snakes/rodents).

I suppose this throws a bone to the Land Owner for the purposes of controlling certain unwanted species.


Spartans ask not...how many, but where!
Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: bassmastar34] #8893124 08/01/23 01:31 PM
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^ Interesting. So, no one gets to hunt this huge swath of land with a rifle? This gets to be a real mess making it unenforceable. I'm a land owner, I'm on my private land, I see a great buck standing in the middle of the dry river bed. I shoot it. I can retrieve it without trespassing. I don't see a game warden citing me for shooting across a property line for shooting into the gradient boundary due to the ambiguity of the property line. What a cluster.


An unethical shot is one you take, that you know you shouldn't.
Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #8893234 08/01/23 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson
^ Interesting. So, no one gets to hunt this huge swath of land with a rifle? This gets to be a real mess making it unenforceable. I'm a land owner, I'm on my private land, I see a great buck standing in the middle of the dry river bed. I shoot it. I can retrieve it without trespassing. I don't see a game warden citing me for shooting across a property line for shooting into the gradient boundary due to the ambiguity of the property line. What a cluster.

^^^^^^

Yep.

'Gradient Boundary' by itself is difficult to establish (in the field) per the letter of the law. It would literally take a surveyor to accurately pin-point the boundary line in any kind of dispute.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

I have no proof....but I suspect all these years....(in practice) it has gone more like this:

1. Land Owner (if not owning the land on both sides of the navigable stream) could simply shoot anywhere on their property AND down into the stream bed....not to exceed the bank on the far side (other peoples property).

2. John Q. Public hunting the public stream....limits shots from the stream bed up to the readily identifiable 'High Bank' which logically represents the private property line. Not legal but easier to identify a 'hard' boundary than a half way point.

In the past....the Land Owner was free to use his property and the public property of the stream as long he/she didn't do anything to exclude the public's use of it.

The 'public' was limited to using only the public part of the stream (Gradient Boundary).

With the new law (effective Sept. 1st 2023) neither party will be able to lawfully hunt the public part of the stream except as stated in the Senate
Bill with respect to weapons limitations.

The Land Owner can no longer sit on their own property with a Grandson/Granddaughter and 'plink' at sticks floating by in the stream because use of a .22 lr (or ammo impact) would not be legal below the Gradient Boundary. Thank You Texas legislators.


Spartans ask not...how many, but where!
Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: flintknapper] #8893305 08/01/23 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by flintknapper
Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson
^ Interesting. So, no one gets to hunt this huge swath of land with a rifle? This gets to be a real mess making it unenforceable. I'm a land owner, I'm on my private land, I see a great buck standing in the middle of the dry river bed. I shoot it. I can retrieve it without trespassing. I don't see a game warden citing me for shooting across a property line for shooting into the gradient boundary due to the ambiguity of the property line. What a cluster.

^^^^^^

Yep.

'Gradient Boundary' by itself is difficult to establish (in the field) per the letter of the law. It would literally take a surveyor to accurately pin-point the boundary line in any kind of dispute.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

I have no proof....but I suspect all these years....(in practice) it has gone more like this:

1. Land Owner (if not owning the land on both sides of the navigable stream) could simply shoot anywhere on their property AND down into the stream bed....not to exceed the bank on the far side (other peoples property).

2. John Q. Public hunting the public stream....limits shots from the stream bed up to the readily identifiable 'High Bank' which logically represents the private property line. Not legal but easier to identify a 'hard' boundary than a half way point.

In the past....the Land Owner was free to use his property and the public property of the stream as long he/she didn't do anything to exclude the public's use of it.

The 'public' was limited to using only the public part of the stream (Gradient Boundary).

With the new law (effective Sept. 1st 2023) neither party will be able to lawfully hunt the public part of the stream except as stated in the Senate
Bill with respect to weapons limitations.

The Land Owner can no longer sit on their own property with a Grandson/Granddaughter and 'plink' at sticks floating by in the stream because use of a .22 lr (or ammo impact) would not be legal below the Gradient Boundary. Thank You Texas legislators.





What's the violation? Trespass by projectile?


An unethical shot is one you take, that you know you shouldn't.
Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #8893323 08/01/23 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson
Originally Posted by flintknapper
Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson
^ Interesting. So, no one gets to hunt this huge swath of land with a rifle? This gets to be a real mess making it unenforceable. I'm a land owner, I'm on my private land, I see a great buck standing in the middle of the dry river bed. I shoot it. I can retrieve it without trespassing. I don't see a game warden citing me for shooting across a property line for shooting into the gradient boundary due to the ambiguity of the property line. What a cluster.

^^^^^^

Yep.

'Gradient Boundary' by itself is difficult to establish (in the field) per the letter of the law. It would literally take a surveyor to accurately pin-point the boundary line in any kind of dispute.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

I have no proof....but I suspect all these years....(in practice) it has gone more like this:

1. Land Owner (if not owning the land on both sides of the navigable stream) could simply shoot anywhere on their property AND down into the stream bed....not to exceed the bank on the far side (other peoples property).

2. John Q. Public hunting the public stream....limits shots from the stream bed up to the readily identifiable 'High Bank' which logically represents the private property line. Not legal but easier to identify a 'hard' boundary than a half way point.

In the past....the Land Owner was free to use his property and the public property of the stream as long he/she didn't do anything to exclude the public's use of it.

The 'public' was limited to using only the public part of the stream (Gradient Boundary).

With the new law (effective Sept. 1st 2023) neither party will be able to lawfully hunt the public part of the stream except as stated in the Senate
Bill with respect to weapons limitations.

The Land Owner can no longer sit on their own property with a Grandson/Granddaughter and 'plink' at sticks floating by in the stream because use of a .22 lr (or ammo impact) would not be legal below the Gradient Boundary. Thank You Texas legislators.





What's the violation? Trespass by projectile?



Or something like that....it would seem:

Quote
Except as provided by Subsection (c) [(d)], a person
may not discharge a firearm or shoot an arrow from any kind of bow
if:
(1) the person is located in or on the bed or bank of a
navigable river or stream at the time the firearm is discharged or
the arrow is shot from the bow; or
(2) any portion of the ammunition discharged or arrow
shot could physically contact the bed or bank of a navigable river
or stream
.


[img]https://legiscan.com/TX/text/SB1236/id/2819525[/img]


Spartans ask not...how many, but where!
Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: flintknapper] #8893338 08/01/23 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by flintknapper
Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson
Originally Posted by flintknapper
Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson
^ Interesting. So, no one gets to hunt this huge swath of land with a rifle? This gets to be a real mess making it unenforceable. I'm a land owner, I'm on my private land, I see a great buck standing in the middle of the dry river bed. I shoot it. I can retrieve it without trespassing. I don't see a game warden citing me for shooting across a property line for shooting into the gradient boundary due to the ambiguity of the property line. What a cluster.

^^^^^^

Yep.

'Gradient Boundary' by itself is difficult to establish (in the field) per the letter of the law. It would literally take a surveyor to accurately pin-point the boundary line in any kind of dispute.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

I have no proof....but I suspect all these years....(in practice) it has gone more like this:

1. Land Owner (if not owning the land on both sides of the navigable stream) could simply shoot anywhere on their property AND down into the stream bed....not to exceed the bank on the far side (other peoples property).

2. John Q. Public hunting the public stream....limits shots from the stream bed up to the readily identifiable 'High Bank' which logically represents the private property line. Not legal but easier to identify a 'hard' boundary than a half way point.

In the past....the Land Owner was free to use his property and the public property of the stream as long he/she didn't do anything to exclude the public's use of it.

The 'public' was limited to using only the public part of the stream (Gradient Boundary).

With the new law (effective Sept. 1st 2023) neither party will be able to lawfully hunt the public part of the stream except as stated in the Senate
Bill with respect to weapons limitations.

The Land Owner can no longer sit on their own property with a Grandson/Granddaughter and 'plink' at sticks floating by in the stream because use of a .22 lr (or ammo impact) would not be legal below the Gradient Boundary. Thank You Texas legislators.





What's the violation? Trespass by projectile?



Or something like that....it would seem:

Quote
Except as provided by Subsection (c) [(d)], a person
may not discharge a firearm or shoot an arrow from any kind of bow
if:
(1) the person is located in or on the bed or bank of a
navigable river or stream at the time the firearm is discharged or
the arrow is shot from the bow; or
(2) any portion of the ammunition discharged or arrow
shot could physically contact the bed or bank of a navigable river
or stream
.


[img]https://legiscan.com/TX/text/SB1236/id/2819525[/img]


So you're good if you get a pass through shot and it impacts your land on the opposite side, or no pass through, or GW can't find impact of pass through..........Like I said, a real cluster.


An unethical shot is one you take, that you know you shouldn't.
Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #8893362 08/01/23 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson

What's the violation? Trespass by projectile?


When the Bill was signed, this became a law. The bill or law created by it is not a summary of other laws or regulations. It is it's own law and so would be a violation of the law we are discussing.. We were just discussing section C 5 a. Scroll on down past a to f and g.

(f) Provides that a person who violates this section commits an offense that is a Class C Parks and Wildlife Code misdemeanor.

(g) Authorizes the actor, if conduct that constitutes an offense under this section also constitutes an offense under Title 7 (Local and Special Laws), to be prosecuted under this section or the other law, but not both.

As above in (g) the title 7 laws are still on the books for the original counties and as read they allow someone to be charged with either one, but not both.
https://law.justia.com/codes/texas/2015/parks-and-wildlife-code/title-7/chapter-284/

Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: onlysmith&wesson] #8893400 08/01/23 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by onlysmith&wesson


So you're good if you get a pass through shot and it impacts your land on the opposite side, or no pass through, or GW can't find impact of pass through..........Like I said, a real cluster.



grin

Yeah, pretty much. If I understand the fine points correctly.

Personally, if I were a Game Warden I would NEVER patrol such areas and unless just called out on a case....I'd try to avoid the 'cluster' altogether.

No doubt... they have more important things to investigate.


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Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: bassmastar34] #9037969 04/24/24 02:15 AM
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Has there been any change to this? Anyone actually talk to local warden etc asking for enforcement guidelines on this? etc

Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: bassmastar34] #9063159 06/17/24 06:52 PM
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The new law effectively takes away the alibi for individuals using a river as ingress and egress to hunt amid private property they otherwise have no business hunting. It closes a loophole. It is highly unlikely this new law will be used to harass a landowner who owns the property on both sides of the stream. Good law if you are a private landowner. Bad law if you have been using stream beds to hull out private property you otherwise do not have permission to hunt.


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Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: Smokey Bear] #9064089 06/19/24 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Smokey Bear
The new law effectively takes away the alibi for individuals using a river as ingress and egress to hunt amid private property they otherwise have no business hunting. It closes a loophole. It is highly unlikely this new law will be used to harass a landowner who owns the property on both sides of the stream. Good law if you are a private landowner. Bad law if you have been using stream beds to hull out private property you otherwise do not have permission to hunt.


Stupid comment. Not a good law for those who legally hunted riverbottoms. Another land grab by landowners.

Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: Smokey Bear] #9069540 06/29/24 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Smokey Bear
The new law effectively takes away the alibi for individuals using a river as ingress and egress to hunt amid private property they otherwise have no business hunting. It closes a loophole. It is highly unlikely this new law will be used to harass a landowner who owns the property on both sides of the stream. Good law if you are a private landowner. Bad law if you have been using stream beds to hull out private property you otherwise do not have permission to hunt.


Wow! The stream bed is public property not private. This is saying you have significant restrictions on hunting public land. But as long as you have land that adjoins the public land you don’t have to abide by the restrictions while hunting on that public land. That makes no sense. It’s still the same public land.

Last edited by Erny; 06/29/24 09:24 PM.
Re: SB 1236 Ends River hunting in Texas [Re: bassmastar34] #9070546 07/02/24 04:52 AM
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Know someone in Williamson county who a big chunk of their property is no longer legally huntable because of this rule. They are going to ignore it, its going to be very difficult to enforce.

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