There are a lot of places like that in states that don't manage deer. My brother hunted in Maine for a while and some in Massachusetts, and he said a deer with nubbins was considered a good buck. My brother in Ohio hunted several years in Virginia and he went years without seeing a buck, then shot the first forkie he saw out of excitement. He was utterly amazed when he hunted my place in OK for the first time t the numbers of bucks and sizes.

Not saying any of those states don't have some good deer in them, but there are huge numbers of hunters who think a fork horn is a good buck because they never get old outside the spike season. It gives appreciation for states like Texas that do have some management minded rules for buck harvest, even as it has its own problems with narrow racks being selected for...perhaps.

Your question is kind of like asking an old school rancher how many acres he owns or how many cows he runs. Plus it is your 6th post on this forum - pretty ballsy

What we pay is what the place is worth - if it wasn't then nobody would be on the lease - if you or someone else cannot afford it then so be it - and I am pretty sure others already knew that a lease and deer like this are not free -

Tlk, dont get too bothered by this guy. There seems to be some blood between you two based on his statement “he knows this place” so just let it rub off and no need to get into anything like a tussle over that.

We all know there is a cost, some are very willing to pay for it (i would) but i am more interested in the cost of time and work. That is really what this kind of thread can offer, what was your management plan on that place and how ling didn’t take to get to your goals.

I have a serious question about genetics. After reading all the above posts there seems to be two trains of thoughts about genetics being a big part/not being a big part.

If that is the case, why do most every post I have seen where a new place is HIGH FENCED, they try to kill off all of the existing deer herd (not all places) and bring in Superior Genetics? Why are there so many Deer Breeding Farms selling huge antlered 2 and 3 year old Super Bucks and Bread Does?
Are these breeding farms just taking regular bucks and feeding them some type of super food and duping the buyer?

thanks but it takes way more than this to get bothered - I have no clue who he is and do not care -

we have spent years trying to do the right thing - we knew the place had great genetics - to me the number one step was to find a LO who was also serious about the process. It is a long, slow process but we have never waivered - from my experience the number one factor is patience and I am convinced not many folks are truly willing to pass up incredible bucks to let them reach full potential. My second year on this place I saw a 170 inch 9 point. Absolutey a beautiful trophy but he was only 5 - as hard as it was we let him walk and the next year he put on 21 inches and was a B&C 201 inch deer of a lifetime (last picture in my post up above) -

the other factor was we have always done serious screening on any new potential member - no drama and are you willing to pass up 180 inch plus 4-5 year old deer to let them reach full potential??

Not easy to find hunters like that - so at any rate I make no apologies - we simply got lucky to find an awesome ranch and then worked our butts off to maximize it

No, people want what their deer herd cannot produce with native genetics so they bring in outside genetics. Those deer get to 200” or better by 3 years old because of superior genetics.

If you could get deer to any size by just nutrition and age there would be no reason to ever bring in deer from a scientific breeder.

A few years ago a ranch I sold a client got hit hard by anthrax. We restocked it using TTT deer from a low fence ranch in Maverick county. Reason why is because of the genetics there. If genetics didn’t matter I could have gotten deer from anyplace, but they do so I didn’t.

Where did the original non native genetics come from? Mars?

Good question, Red. This thread may never end..... Especially if anyone noticed Rabbit asked about "deer breeders"!!!!!

I read TX Trophy saying superior not non native; maybe Texas Buckeye said non-Texan

My guess is that the number of ranches of that size under that level of management for that long a time frame are few and really far between. Likely not A comparable ranch in several counties in the state. No chance for their genetics to represent themselves.

A lot of work with some discipline thrown in coupled with genetics. Beautiful bucks, thanks for sharing tlk.

It depends on what your goals is. Some places may top out at native 190- 240 , and some may never hit 150. End of the day only way to really push the genetic limits is to gene swamp with DPM pen or replace with proven genetics.

Biggest thing is most the time when some one imports, its just shorting their goal time for what they image their herd should produce.

depends on the ranch and location. I read some where that only PURE native herd left in US is the King Ranch area, every where else has some non-local influence

I would say that would be a pretty broad brush but not entirely inaccurate.

Over hunting combined with screw worms really out a hurting on deer numbers prior to the eradication of the flies.

There are more deer today in Llano county than there was in the entire state in 1925.

its funny, I measured a native llano deer that I think(been several years) went 173 roughly @ 7.5, they couldnt break 190 so they introduced and started culling all the native out. Funny what happens when cut the herd into a 1/3 and optimize nutrition

Size of property helps but is not an absolute. The area around Lytle east of 35 produces some monster deer on smaller tracts. I know of several ( and seen several ) deer that were over 170” and know of 2 that were over 200” killed. These are small 200-400 type places, not monster hunting ranches with all kinds of supplemental feeding. Why do the deer get so big in this pocket? Genetics are there.

https://www.pleasantonexpress.com/articles/bartek-harvests-low-fenced-trophy/

There is definitely some confusing HF and LF discussions on here. I will say right up front my discussion only applies to LF or free range deer. Put up a HF and the genetics discussion goes way out the door.

So please if you are talking HF ranches, specify. If you are talking free range/LF please say so.

Having said all that, stocker deer are not native WT genetics of anywhere, they are genetically “modified” through selective and controlled breeding and selecting for a trait that is a man made/man controlled situation not available anywhere in nature. So even if a breeder buck or doe is “native genetics” it is still a modified process whereby man selects the best and continues to bring the best trait forward. But there is a good reason why breeder deer are not cross bred with normal native genetics…because the genetic traits selected for in the breeder stock will be normalized within a few generations and all the money spent will go for naught. There is a reason people don’t put stocker deer on a LF property, because it is a waste of money as the genetics selected for get bred out within a few generations.

I brought up northern deer being brought in to free range in grayson county. I dont know of any other places any other free range deer were brought in from.

I noticed FR…i hope this discussion finds you well and you find this an interesting discussion

Beautiful deer!!!! I don’t care to know where or how but simply they were there Big deer make people say and ask stupid questions and is the exact reason I no longer say anything about what we see or kill. Great job on whatever you guys had going…

That’s a shame.

Awesome deer tlk and yes you woke this section up.

S. Texas has a leg up on everyone else with their great genetics and native plants with very high protein in them. When you add supplemental feeding and great game management you have tlk results

I tried googling how many sub-species of Whitetail deer there are in Texas and the North America. At one point awhile back it seems like there were 7 subspecies alone for Texas, but that was quite awhile back.

So here are a couple of Google results. If you have good info on how many sub-species there are in Texas, please share!


There are 17 of recognized subspecies of whitetail deer in the United States, four of which occur in Texas. These are the tiny Carmen Mountains whitetail, the Texas whitetail, the Kansas whitetail and the Avery Island Whitetail.Nov 26, 2018

Taxonomists disagree exactly how many subspecies of whitetails there are. It's somewhere around 29 in North America, with 16 in the United States and Canada.Nov 8, 2022

It would be a very interesting study to see if the subspecies are a separate genotype or just a separate phenotype. From what I have seen in looking into this, there is very little genetic variation among the NA groups of subspecies, and the statement above "taxonomists disagree on how many subspecies there are..." tells me there is considerable overlap in most of the subspecies with genotype and the differentiation is mostly phenotype for a lot of the subspecies.

If there were true genotype differences between subspecies, there would be no taxonomical disagreement. The genetics would show.

Another place I read actually said many of the deer in the southern united states were transplanted from different areas and over time these deer have intermixed with indigenous deer, so that source makes it sound like the genotype may be the same for many of the deer in the southern US. I am not including Texas in that discussion, but the point stands that even if you introduce pockets of genetically different deer into a free range situation, the local deer will intermix and eventually you will be left with a homogenous group of animals. Given enough time and no physical restrictions on movement, the blend would extend out far enough to say the original pocket is no longer.

Can't even believe youse guys are having this discussion. I have seen on here prior that poorer antlered bucks produce better offspring - so why all this discussion on superior genetics? Who would ever think a sire would be able to pass his physical characteristics along to his offspring?

Taken in 2013


Taken 3/4 of mile away and 8 years later

Those are beautiful big bucks Hud! Love seeing bucks like that and the ones tlk posted. Amazing animals and products of some good management decisions on your all's part.

You bring up some interesting stuff. I will unpack a little:

1. There is no predictability that a big antlered buck will spawn offspring that also have big antlers. In fact, studies have shown the larger antlered deer almost always have offspring bucks that regress back to normal, while smaller antlered bucks will improve up to normal. However, there is no predictable correlation between bucks antlers and the antlers of the offspring. In one study done in South texas, the researchers found a certain small antlered buck produced the largest buck offspring that was measured. It is impossible to say if he just got lucky with the right doe or if there is anything in his gene line that was ripe for producing big antlers and his personal issues were food or stress related. But since 50% of the genetics comes from the doe, selecting to keep a specific buck on a property longer "simply to let it breed" is a management decision that does not need to happen. Hopefully that prompts more discussion.

2. This discussion was initially about normal free range genetics and not improved genetics. The introduction of "superior" genetics was brought up and it is a class differentiation that makes any discussion about genetics almost moot. Reason being when people talk about "superior genetics" they are almost always talking HF properties, which any genetics discussion in this thread has not been about. And as I have tried to explain and i think most would agree with, any discussion about superior genetics in a free range situation becomes moot after a couple generations as that superior genetic trait is dulled out pretty quickly among the native herd.