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Where have All of the Mule Deer Gone? #8794530 02/03/23 02:48 PM
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Last year we had more than enough mule deer on a 3000 acre place that we lease in West Texas. Really we had too many mule deer does. You would see 10 or 12 per hunt last year if not more. The bucks were a little more discreet, but as it got later in the year closer to when they breed, we saw plenty of them. This year a total flip flop. Driving over the entire place this year, we might see 2 or 3 deer combining bucks and does. I know we had a drought, and are still in a drought, but we have had droughts before and we had more deer than we do now. We have not found any dead deer and I have noticed others proclaiming the same about their deer numbers, but I have read very few theories from long time land owners and have read nothing in regard to TP&W ideas. Just concerning and would appreciate some theories.

Last edited by BenBob; 02/03/23 02:52 PM.

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Re: Where have All of the Mule Deer Gone? [Re: BenBob] #8794542 02/03/23 03:00 PM
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Mule deer migrate unlike whitetail who stay in their core areas. We hunt on 5800 acres and when they are “in town” we see much more sightings than when they are “out of town“ migrating. With the drought going on they could of lost a food and water source your pasture used to have but doesn’t now because of the lack of rain.


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Re: Where have All of the Mule Deer Gone? [Re: BenBob] #8794570 02/03/23 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by BenBob
Last year we had more than enough mule deer on a 3000 acre place that we lease in West Texas. Really we had too many mule deer does. You would see 10 or 12 per hunt last year if not more. The bucks were a little more discreet, but as it got later in the year closer to when they breed, we saw plenty of them. This year a total flip flop. Driving over the entire place this year, we might see 2 or 3 deer combining bucks and does. I know we had a drought, and are still in a drought, but we have had droughts before and we had more deer than we do now. We have not found any dead deer and I have noticed others proclaiming the same about their deer numbers, but I have read very few theories from long time land owners and have read nothing in regard to TP&W ideas. Just concerning and would appreciate some theories.


larger home area in the winter, they will travel further and further based on food sources. I have seen 19 plus miles on my ranch in late winter

drought year means the will travel even further. They will be back in the spring


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Re: Where have All of the Mule Deer Gone? [Re: BenBob] #8794572 02/03/23 03:42 PM
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We have a bunch of MD bucks and does hitting alfalfa and protein right now. In November they were nowhere to be found for the most part. Same lease as PitchforkPredator.

Re: Where have All of the Mule Deer Gone? [Re: Pitchfork Predator] #8794603 02/03/23 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Pitchfork Predator
Mule deer migrate unlike whitetail who stay in their core areas. We hunt on 5800 acres and when they are “in town” we see much more sightings than when they are “out of town“ migrating. With the drought going on they could of lost a food and water source your pasture used to have but doesn’t now because of the lack of rain.


I agree with Marc. Rains are generally spotty in West Texas and mule deer will pick up and move to where feed or rainfall is better. I don't know if they can smell it or just move around until they find the better feed. I hunted a big ranch south of Marathon for many years. If it rained within 20 miles of us and we were dry and short on browse, most of the deer went to the fresher, better browse.
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Re: Where have All of the Mule Deer Gone? [Re: BenBob] #8794617 02/03/23 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by BenBob
Last year we had more than enough mule deer on a 3000 acre place that we lease in West Texas. Really we had too many mule deer does. You would see 10 or 12 per hunt last year if not more. The bucks were a little more discreet, but as it got later in the year closer to when they breed, we saw plenty of them. This year a total flip flop. Driving over the entire place this year, we might see 2 or 3 deer combining bucks and does. I know we had a drought, and are still in a drought, but we have had droughts before and we had more deer than we do now. We have not found any dead deer and I have noticed others proclaiming the same about their deer numbers, but I have read very few theories from long time land owners and have read nothing in regard to TP&W ideas. Just concerning and would appreciate some theories.


Saw the exact same thing on our 65000 acre MLD ground. Sighting were few and far between. I agree with the migration/drought/went to greener pastures idea, but where would they go? You'd have to go a lot, and I mean a whole lot of miles to find anything better.

Re: Where have All of the Mule Deer Gone? [Re: BenBob] #8794621 02/03/23 04:58 PM
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Mule deer have not been scientifically studied nearly as much as WT, especially in Texas. I also think MD in more traditional mountain State areas likely show different migration/travel patterns than in Texas. I would suggest anyone interested would look up the Dec issue of Texas Wildlife Associations magazine. Theres an article by Matt Wyatt that details a study on Panhandle MD and how they travel in an ag-dominated landscape. The study was said to be the only study of its kind and it was led by Dr Levi Heffelfinger of CKWRI and collaborated with Sul Ross and Tech.
Its hard to recap and do it much justice but Ill mention some of my take aways. They thought going into the study that MD traveled great distances(50 miles) to get to ag. What the study showed them was that MD rarely ever traveled more than 2 miles to ag and that it was not a large part of their diet. What they did NOT say was that they wouldnt travel longer distances if natural food sources, water or cover were not available. This likely speaks to what the OP, Pitch and Bobo are talking about. A side note to the study showed that the average home range(in this study) of MD does was 2600 acres and bucks was 9000 acres. I would conclude from that home range size they are moving a good ways but evidently not necessarily for ag.

Anyway, keep in mind the study was in the Panhadle and it was in ag dominated areas so maybe it applies or doesnt. Also, keep in mind, its not my opinion, Im just the messenger. If interested, I assume you could look up the article or the study itself.


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Re: Where have All of the Mule Deer Gone? [Re: BenBob] #8794624 02/03/23 05:06 PM
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I was typing while Gary and jgraider posted so Ill circle back. I agree with both of them that when times are hard they try to move to greener pastures. Jgraiders experience on that much country(65000 ac) is fascinating to me. Especially considering another post of his that told how long and hard they hunted. I also know(I think) that he has been on that place for many years with basically the same group of experienced guys. I also agree that there were likely no "greener pastures" to be found. My only guess would be that they just kept moving in hopes to find something and they probably never did.


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Re: Where have All of the Mule Deer Gone? [Re: BenBob] #8794627 02/03/23 05:09 PM
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Maybe the quail hunters poached all of them. roflmao



Re: Where have All of the Mule Deer Gone? [Re: freerange] #8794655 02/03/23 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by freerange
Mule deer have not been scientifically studied nearly as much as WT, especially in Texas. I also think MD in more traditional mountain State areas likely show different migration/travel patterns than in Texas. I would suggest anyone interested would look up the Dec issue of Texas Wildlife Associations magazine. Theres an article by Matt Wyatt that details a study on Panhandle MD and how they travel in an ag-dominated landscape. The study was said to be the only study of its kind and it was led by Dr Levi Heffelfinger of CKWRI and collaborated with Sul Ross and Tech.
Its hard to recap and do it much justice but Ill mention some of my take aways. They thought going into the study that MD traveled great distances(50 miles) to get to ag. What the study showed them was that MD rarely ever traveled more than 2 miles to ag and that it was not a large part of their diet. What they did NOT say was that they wouldnt travel longer distances if natural food sources, water or cover were not available. This likely speaks to what the OP, Pitch and Bobo are talking about. A side note to the study showed that the average home range(in this study) of MD does was 2600 acres and bucks was 9000 acres. I would conclude from that home range size they are moving a good ways but evidently not necessarily for ag.

Anyway, keep in mind the study was in the Panhadle and it was in ag dominated areas so maybe it applies or doesnt. Also, keep in mind, its not my opinion, Im just the messenger. If interested, I assume you could look up the article or the study itself.


I've read that study (our ranch was included in that survey) and I found the findings flawed. I've seen from 20+ years experience that mule deer will travel farther in winter to find groceries. We've had as many as 200 deer winter on less than 800 acres of wheat. There is no way that population lives year round within 2600 or even 9000 acres of us. If you look at the deer density in summer in our area, it tells you that the deer are probably migrating from up to 20 miles away to winter on our place.

Now... in heavy ag country, I'm sure they don't have to move much to find groceries... hence their findings. Deer are going to migrate to the first wheat field they find and stay there. But the ones in wide open country, or places like Palo Duro Canyon will absolutely migrate as far as they need to find winter forage.

ANYWAY... BenBob it was a drought year and the forage on your place was probably thin at best. The mule deer you saw in past years are most likely on a neighbors patch of wheat or alfalfa. When you get decent rains I'm sure they'll be back. Just my .02 cents.


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Re: Where have All of the Mule Deer Gone? [Re: BenBob] #8794666 02/03/23 05:52 PM
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Dkershen, good info and more in line with what I thought and what seems to be the common opinion.
Would you have any theory of what the flaw in the study might of been?


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Re: Where have All of the Mule Deer Gone? [Re: BenBob] #8794694 02/03/23 06:36 PM
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Got a buddy that hunts in the panhandle. His place has hardly any MD but his neighbor has a large wheat field. Said there were many times he saw 50-100 in that wheat field but none on his place. He doesn't have a wheat field.


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Re: Where have All of the Mule Deer Gone? [Re: freerange] #8794747 02/03/23 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by freerange
Dkershen, good info and more in line with what I thought and what seems to be the common opinion.
Would you have any theory of what the flaw in the study might of been?


Flaw? A couple of things. They did the study with less than three years radio tracking data from 2015-17. And I think they radio collared 140 something mule deer out of only three areas in a place as large as the panhandle (and didn't include the Palo Duro Canyon herd which I think is a huge miss on their part). But the biggest issue is that 2015 and 2017 had terrific (record breaking) rainfall. So the native forbs and groceries were in peak condition leaving the mule deer little need to migrate for forage. The study should have covered more years, included drought years, and from a much larger sampling across the entire panhandle. Just my .02 cents and based on watching these animals for 25 years.

Here is the study. You guy's can read for yourself and decide. https://www.ckwri.tamuk.edu/publications/article/panhandle-paradox


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Re: Where have All of the Mule Deer Gone? [Re: dkershen] #8794772 02/03/23 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by dkershen
Originally Posted by freerange
Dkershen, good info and more in line with what I thought and what seems to be the common opinion.
Would you have any theory of what the flaw in the study might of been?


Flaw? A couple of things. They did the study with less than three years radio tracking data from 2015-17. And I think they radio collared 140 something mule deer out of only three areas in a place as large as the panhandle (and didn't include the Palo Duro Canyon herd which I think is a huge miss on their part). But the biggest issue is that 2015 and 2017 had terrific (record breaking) rainfall. So the native forbs and groceries were in peak condition leaving the mule deer little need to migrate for forage. The study should have covered more years, included drought years, and from a much larger sampling across the entire panhandle. Just my .02 cents and based on watching these animals for 25 years.

Here is the study. You guy's can read for yourself and decide. https://www.ckwri.tamuk.edu/publications/article/panhandle-paradox

Very good feedback, dkershen. Your possible flaws certainly make sense. I’m glad you included the study-I’m not sure how to link that stuff.
Dr Harveson, with BRI, was involved with the study and I will see him in July and make a point to ask him about it.


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Re: Where have All of the Mule Deer Gone? [Re: freerange] #8795060 02/04/23 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by freerange
Originally Posted by dkershen
Originally Posted by freerange
Dkershen, good info and more in line with what I thought and what seems to be the common opinion.
Would you have any theory of what the flaw in the study might of been?


Flaw? A couple of things. They did the study with less than three years radio tracking data from 2015-17. And I think they radio collared 140 something mule deer out of only three areas in a place as large as the panhandle (and didn't include the Palo Duro Canyon herd which I think is a huge miss on their part). But the biggest issue is that 2015 and 2017 had terrific (record breaking) rainfall. So the native forbs and groceries were in peak condition leaving the mule deer little need to migrate for forage. The study should have covered more years, included drought years, and from a much larger sampling across the entire panhandle. Just my .02 cents and based on watching these animals for 25 years.

Here is the study. You guy's can read for yourself and decide. https://www.ckwri.tamuk.edu/publications/article/panhandle-paradox

Very good feedback, dkershen. Your possible flaws certainly make sense. I’m glad you included the study-I’m not sure how to link that stuff.
Dr Harveson, with BRI, was involved with the study and I will see him in July and make a point to ask him about it.


Would be interesting to hear his thoughts.


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Re: Where have All of the Mule Deer Gone? [Re: BenBob] #8795079 02/04/23 08:00 AM
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I'll share that in my experience, the the mule deer that frequent my place in the panhandle (high rolling plains with lots of cotton) seem fairly migratory. What I mean is they seem to rotate through my place every 3-5 days, on average. They'll hit my place for a day or three, then move on to other areas. Four or five days later they're back. Of course, there's always an outlier yearling buck who'll camp near a feeder almost all season long, and there are some seasons that I see more or less of them. But in general, they are definitely much more transitory than our whitetails.


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Re: Where have All of the Mule Deer Gone? [Re: BenBob] #8795144 02/04/23 01:53 PM
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IME in Trans Pecos with little to no irrigated farm land over hunting mule deer since 2007. Mule deer will generally move to better food source at that time of the year. If it rains a few miles away they may move there and not return for a few months or even a year or two. Time of year and range conditions dictated where they would be. In fall(generally after the summer rainy season and before a freeze) on our old lease they would be down low in the thicker vegetation. Better soils and all the runoff gathered there to soak in. Very hard to hunt much less see any deer in those areas. Only reason for them to come out was water or if it froze. We had a lot of low areas like this. The higher ground and ridges had deer when it was really dry at times after little rain showers. That gravely desert country can rebound and grow things that deer seem to like. A food source this year may not be there next year. One part of the ranch may get rain and lot of the rest may not. Just because you are seeing deer doesn't mean they left, it may mean they are in areas you can't see them in.

Water is key but not used as often by the Trans Pecos mule deer like any whitetail would use water. WT use it daily if not more times daily compared to the mule deer on that lease. Mule deer does seemed to go one per day to as much as every other day to third day. Where as bucks used it less...younger bucks with doe groups may go when those does go to water. Whereas mature bucks seemed to go to water every 3 to 5 days. We found that hunting water on our lease was futile since the deer were not patternable and we got very few mature bucks that we would see or kill on trail cams at water. What I did find sitting and glassing large area that had water sources I could see was that when deer went to water (they waited for cattle to move out generally) they would tank up on water , maybe mill around a bit. Then when they left they never left on the trail they came in on, they went out a different trail to a new location to feed. That location was generally 3/4 mile from water on our lease. I think they did this to not to deplete the food sources and predation issues...I am sure there were more reasons for this also. Our deer population was very light compared to most of West Texas. This was on 69,000 acres that was not MLD and had no feeders or farm land. Light cattle numbers and great watering availability. We had no whitetail to speak of(I saw less than 10 total since 2007, growing elk numbers, growing aoudad numbers and hogs in some areas.
What effected our hunting every year was how much rain we had and when it fell before the season. We may find deer in the same exact location for a couple of season or only one year and then not again for a while. Hard freezes in the season meant within 3 days we had to find the deer again. If we got .40 or more of rain or snow during the season the food source changed. During the drought of 2011 the food sources were minimal. We had a little moisture and the greasewood started to put out new green shoots down low to the base and that is where we found the deer. Eating that new growth in areas that had it. In all the years hunting there we never had normal annual average rainfall. I can only remember one year where the north part of the ranch had a lot of rainfall that year and the deer numbers showed it in that area. The parts of the ranch to the south also had less deer sightings. In our first year we saw a buck that was very unique with forked whitetail 5x5 rack but forked 2's and forked 4's on our far west fence line area the first week of the season. The next season he was 7 miles to the east in the last week of the season. One opening day a few years ago I found a 4x4 with a large group of does that morning. Over the next 2 weeks I watched them and found them as they moved south. In 14 days they fed and moved south 5.75 miles in a straight-line to a new area. No telling how far it actually was by the route they took.
What we found also in our flatter to rolling terrain was that when the mule deer does moved up and out of the lower drainages in late season on onto the ridge slopes the bucks moved with them. The does would feed on the ridge sides and the bucks got up high to watch them. Bucks used what little elevation we had to spot the does then moved to them when the rut started. The cattle guy(who was not a hunter or cared about hunting) told us the same thing he witnessed when the rut was about to start....the does staged on the ridges or hill sides to feed.
One last thing I noticed was how the deer reacted to vehicles and hunters. The mule deer on this place for the most part were used to seeing a white chevy pickup daily and were used to it. They stood and watched as it drove by them. We hunted out of pickups and then on foot the first 4 yrs and found the deer to act the same way to our vehicles. On foot they watched you from a distance and if you approached slowly they would not run off. If they smelled you they would run away. Bedded deer would let you walk by them if they thought they were hidden...if you made eye contact and/or the smelled you they would get up and run. Around 2010 we started hunting out of UTV's and we could get way off the roads and cover a lot ground. The deer were not bothered them one bit and they would not even get up unless you drove right over them. I watched deer bed then drove to them and found them laying down and not concerned with the UTV...unless they smelled you or you drove right over them. Most of the time they stayed bedded and did not get up till it was time to feed again. We think that the deer would not pay much attention the UTV and learned to just lay or stay where they were at. I drove up on deer that I spooked(in high wind) and watched them run off. I stopped and glassed them for a while only to watch them turn and feed right back to me. Stopping close to me or feeding right by me within 50 yards.
We put very little hunting pressure on that ranch and took very few deer each year. That ranch was fun hunting but very difficult one to figure the deer out but when you did it was a fun. Addicting. Those new hunters who tried to hunt the mule deer like whitetails failed at finding many mule deer on it. Once they figured out the food source and that the deer did not use the water as much, found better success. 2cents


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Re: Where have All of the Mule Deer Gone? [Re: BenBob] #8795146 02/04/23 01:57 PM
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Man stxranchman, that's a hard read. Get a few paragraph breaks would `ya.


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Re: Where have All of the Mule Deer Gone? [Re: BayouGuy] #8795153 02/04/23 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by BayouGuy
Man stxranchman, that's a hard read. Get a few paragraph breaks would `ya.

I had some paragraph breaks in but forgot to edit and put a large space between those few. Some of my editing to add sentences change that also. Not my style and definitely not a writer. Never cared for it and it shows in my writing.


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Re: Where have All of the Mule Deer Gone? [Re: BenBob] #8795157 02/04/23 02:17 PM
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Why you're known as STXRanchman instead of STXPulitzerman, lol...

Re: Where have All of the Mule Deer Gone? [Re: BenBob] #8795190 02/04/23 03:10 PM
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He’s just THE MAN.
Thanks for the long read. Very educational.


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Re: Where have All of the Mule Deer Gone? [Re: BenBob] #8795202 02/04/23 03:45 PM
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Very interesting, was curious about wt and their watering. In many years I have only seen 1 or 2 deer at water.

Re: Where have All of the Mule Deer Gone? [Re: BenBob] #8796344 02/06/23 03:18 PM
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Good info from STX. And falls in line with what I've seen in the panhandle. Bottom line is that mule deer will migrate to food sources, and food sources are affected by rain. Year's with exceptional rain mean they have little need to migrate. And in drought years they'll go long distances to find groceries.


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Re: Where have All of the Mule Deer Gone? [Re: dkershen] #8796353 02/06/23 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by dkershen
Good info from STX. And falls in line with what I've seen in the panhandle. Bottom line is that mule deer will migrate to food sources, and food sources are affected by rain. Year's with exceptional rain mean they have little need to migrate. And in drought years they'll go long distances to find groceries.


Interesting for sure. Question: If an area of say, 300 miles in any direction is impacted by severe drought, where will they go to find "good" food sources?

Re: Where have All of the Mule Deer Gone? [Re: Jgraider] #8796564 02/06/23 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Jgraider
Originally Posted by dkershen
Good info from STX. And falls in line with what I've seen in the panhandle. Bottom line is that mule deer will migrate to food sources, and food sources are affected by rain. Year's with exceptional rain mean they have little need to migrate. And in drought years they'll go long distances to find groceries.


Interesting for sure. Question: If an area of say, 300 miles in any direction is impacted by severe drought, where will they go to find "good" food sources?


not TX but gives perspective on ability

https://migrationinitiative.org/


I think in Texas you would be hard pressed to go over 50 miles and not find a better or under utilized food source just solely based on our ag availability and lighter Mule deer densities.



Bottom line, never trust a man whose uncle was eaten by cannibals.-Sen Joni Ernst
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