A little backwards quiz to help me and others learn. It’s so hard to kill and recover a deer a high percentage of the time. This cull was recovered but let’s work backwards and y’all tell me how you think we got to this point. The pics show the entry with fletching and then exit. It stopped short of exit by just the hide. We poked through to show the spot.
#-Curious what y’all can tell by the arrow entry/exit how you think the track went.
#-Curious what key body parts you think were hit and which missed.
#-Curious how much blood, color blood, how he reacted and how far he went.
This isn’t a trick question at all. Just trying to see what y’all think in order to learn. I’m experienced gun hunting but a bow is a whole new world and tons more to consider.
I’ll give y’all some time and then likely add more info as hints.

Hard to tell from the pic as he is hanging up but the shot looks a tad low for my taste but should have gotten the heart. A low shot like that normally bleeds pretty good.

A quartering away shot with a expandable broadhead normally produces lots of hemmorging and short tracks

I aim a little higher, and a little farther forward, but, I'd guess you got double lung. Possibly lower lobe of liver. Pink blood for lungs, dark red for liver. As for how long of a track, who knows. I've seen perfect shots that had to be tracked a long ways. I've seen bad shots that didn't go 10 feet.

I always wait for a quarter away shots, all seem to work for me. I’ve been bow hunting for 40 years now and this seems to be the shot that kills them fastest and and less tracking. Both of these this year were quarter away hard. The arrow poked out the opposite shoulder, I shoot Hoyt 65 pound bows. 350 maxima arrows rage, NC, broad heads. On Both.

Looks low and back to me. May have missed the lungs and heart.

Caught the stomach, Diaphragm some lung might have cut a little of the heart. Distance no idea, could be less than 100 or over 300. I have seen deer go down quick from iffy shots r how they went that from some you think they would.

Blood like said above could give some info such as stomach or gut contents, Lung blood or darker red blood. I think the hit is a little low for liver, Liver gets enough blood flow to be deadly pretty quickly.

If I knew I shot one there I would wait at least an hour probably 2. Often one will lay down within a 200 or 300 yards or even less and die there but if pushed from that spot it laid down at chances of recovery go down fast. If just hit in one lung they can go a long ways and live quite a while.

Something to think about on any shot, gun or bow, but more inportantly bow when you do not have the hydrostatic forces of the bullet wound working in your favor...how long does it take to bleed out from a good shot vs a bad shot and how far can that deer run in the mean time. How long does it take a perfectly places heart shot (with a bow) to empty the blood contents of the deer and then how long does it take for the brain to stop running? These will answer a lot of questions for bow hunters and any hunter in general.

First and foremost, it will take at least 8-10 seconds with no blood flow to the brain before an animal will pass out/die. In 8-10 seconds, how far can a deer run? At 20-25mph (slow deer) that amounts to 100-125 yards, and that is if the blood flow is stopped immediately. What typically happens is the blood flows some but not 100% so you can expect a hear shot deer to POSSIBLY run as much as 200 yards before collapsing.

So why don't they go that far usually? most of the time, a heart shot deer is also lung shot, maybe double lunged. In this situation, the total collapse of the cardiovascular and pulmonary system makes for a shorter run, but could still be in the range of 100 yards or more.

However, for a deer not shot perfectly, clipping just one lung or even missing lung altogether, the only thing we can rely on is blood loss. This will vary depending on the artery(s) or vein(s) hit and how large they are. It could take a long time, minutes perhaps if a medium sized vessel and that means a long time before total cardiovascular collapse.

All of that to say, the shot looks low and back a little to me. My guess is it his diaphagm on one side and part of the back lung on the other, possibly stomach or liver on the diaphragm side, which would lead to a decent blood flow of darker blood after about 50-60 yards, and a track in the hundreds of yards range. It takes a while to bleed out from the liver, so it would be potentially a minute long or longer, and a minute of running at 25 mph is 700+ yards. I wouldn't expect the run to be that fast that long, but I expect the time to bleed out to be a little longer, so an intial sprint off at 25mph, followed by a trot for a little while, followed by a slow walk before it laid down. Probably about 4-6oo yard track is my guess, plus or minus, depending on available cover, and a scant blood trail that got better before it got worse for the latter part.

Thanks to all so far. For what’s it’s worth, TxBuc is a doc so he may know some stuff about the technical end of his comments. Others may have more bow hunting hands on experience but that’s why I try to learn from all the various sources.
Any comments on shot placement, anatomy, tracking etc are welcome.
I’ll wait till tonight or tomorrow and give y’all more info on what happened.

Added a bit to my post above

Thanks kmon. I always respect your opinion on bow. I will add more info on this tomorrow hopefully so as you and others know more I hope you will revisit. Ill add blood color, amount of blood, how he reacted etc,
Not trying to be tricky by holding back info but just wanting yalls opinions at the various stages in time as we went through yesterday and as most recovery scenarios play out.

When all else fails with finding one to recovery bring out the dog

I always go for a good double lung shot. I’ve never really seen the “bright pink frothy blood” that books claim you see with a lung shot. I’ve seen froth, but it’s never been bright pink.

Honestly, out of the animals I’ve killed with a bow ( 33 big game animals so far ) I’ve never been able to decipher a shot based on blood color.

Out of those animals, only one really surprised me on how far he went. Shot a buck right behind the shoulder, he took off. Found the arrow and really good blood, expected to fall within 30-40 yards. He went over 300 yards before I found him, bled good the entire way, never bedded down. Arrow went in perfect behind the shoulder, arrow deflected off something and came out forward of his hip. Lungs were trashed but he ran quite a ways.

Lung blood I have seen some of it had small bubbles but is usually a bright red. Liver blood is almost always Dark red in comparison think Vein blood to Artery blood. Gut blood can be either but have other matter in it. Just speaking from what I have seen over the years.

Bubbles but not pink and frothy, and not many bubbles, most of the time I never see any of those either.
it was going down or already down. Arrow shot deer I usually wait at least 30 minutes before taking up the track unless I see the animal fall. Gun shots it depends on how certain I am of the hit and the gun.

Some deer do amazing things after the shot, First bow kill was with recurve, wooden arrows with 2 blade broadhead. Double lunged from a tree stand at 10 yards. Arrow passed through and stuck in the ground. It went in vertical between ribs and out the same way. Less than 2 minutes later it was down, it just jumped a couple times stopped looked around and saw the arrow, walked over to it and was smelling the blood on the arrow when it got the wobbles and fell down. Small spike but I sure was proud of it. Red blood was pouring out by the time it got to the arrow Bright red but not frothy.

On a different note human blood from the veins when drawn is dark, artery blood draw will be brighter red or at least that is what I have seen watching them draw both before surgery

I'll note that the frothy blood was on the deer after it was down, not something visible from on the ground.

I've seen frothy pink blood from lung shot. In reality, it was a spongy pink chunk of lung and not blood at all. But yes, many times a lung shot will show bubbles but won't really be pink. I've also determined gut shot by finding stomach/intestine content in the blood. I may be wrong, but I don't think that shot was far enough back to hit stomach. Watching for freerange's reveal.

We have to remember deer have a will to live, and as a prey animal, they are designed to not show pain. Pain is a sign for predators to "kill me" so instinctually they don't show pain. And have a strong will to live.

A double lung shot deer which just takes out the lungs but doesn't hit major arteries or veins in those lungs, will suffocate, not bleed out. It takes a while for a partially oxygenating animal to be really stressed physically (ever see a human with a collapsed lung, they can still function quite well for some good amount of time) and it takes time for the gas or blood to build up enough in the thorax to make it impossible for oxygenation. And with a big enough hole from the hit, there may never be a time when a double lunged deer even creates enough gas or blood to create what we call a tension pneumothorax and squeeze the lungs so tight they can't work.

So, again, a double lunged deer that hits little veins or arteries really can move a long way before it dies. It will do the initial run off for some distance, but even a 10 second flight for a deer is around 150-200 yards, then they will slow down and trot for a bit before they feel comfortable walking and finding cover. This will vary by environment and a big field where there is no good cover you could see the same deer run the whole distance of 800-1000 yards to get to cover while a deer in thick woods may only need to run 100-150 yards before it feels safe to hole up. Very situational. But easily could cover 300-400 yards without too much trouble.

This is why some states have minimum size broadhead rules. Can you imagine the trouble it would take to find a deer shot through the lungs or gut with a small head the size of a field tip or less than half an inch. A shot like that is still likely going to be lethal (gut shot for sure), but the ability to track that deer is minimal and the length t takes for a deer to die from such a wound would be tragically long.

Food material on the arrow or mixed in with the blood is a dead giveaway for a stomach or intestine shot. On this deer, you have to remember the deer is hanging by its head, so the shoulders are slumped way back from where they normally would be. The diaphragm comes up really high and right behind it is the stomach and the liver. As far back as that entrance shot looks, I can not see how it didn't at least hit something behind the diaphragm. IN fact, looking at the pic closely shows the bend of the ribcage in front of the arrow entrance, so it HAD to hit behind the diaphragm at least some. On that side, you would have stomach, possibly some small part of the liver in the left lobe, and the backside of the right lung. Not a good shot for tracking, and the deer would have run a long while given there isn't much large vascularity in those structures where they would have been hit.

Lung shots are different as well depending on where in the breathing cycle they are when shot. Lungs full of air present a larger less dense mass than at the exhale complete exhale of breath. I have shot a few with rifles where the deer dropped on the spot from a simple lung shot while another deer shot the same place with same load ran close to 100 yards. One just had liquid and jelly chest contents the other the lungs were still partially intact. Shot with a broadhead sometimes the cut through the lungs will be larger than on other shots just in cutting diameter, more material damage the more it will bleed.

Food material on the arrow or in blood at the site of the hit and I am not following the deer for several hours.

Very good points kmon!

MORE INFO.
Thanks for following along and for all the great comments. Ill now take you back to the shot and part of what was done after that.
At the shot the deer 'trotted' out into a wheat field about 100 yards and stopped. He hunched his back real high and stayed there about 20 seconds. Hunter could see his arrow sticking out of the entry more than halfway and he didnt think he got an exit. The deer walked 100 yards out of the wheat field and into think timber/undergrowth and out of sight. His walking was labored and his back stayed hunched the whole time.
The hunter stayed on stand an hour and thats when I got there. We waited around awhile longer and then easily followed the deers path across the open wheat field. He bled a lot and very consistently. It was basic red, fairly bright. Not real dark and not pink or frothy. There was a lot of gunk in the blood sometimes and we found bloody corn from time to time on the trail(mostly later). The blood was not spaying way out but dropping pretty straight down. After he had stopped in the field the blood for about 20 yards was like you poured out a steady stream.
I dont want to tell you too much of our thought process cause thats what I want yall to evaluate and say what you would of done. After a wait we elected to go into the woods and follow the very easy blood trail which left blood every few feet.. At one point we thought we heard a deer wheezing or snorting but there are tons of deer in that area. At this point we were 50 yards into the woods and we backed out for awhile.
An hour or so later we went back in slowly. For about 100 yards in the woods he back tracked some and zigged and zagged then almost came back to the field before turning away from where hed been. At that point it was still consistent blood but fewer and farther between and less of it.
Finally the blood slowed a lot and we backed out. It was about noon and had been about 4 hours since the shot and he had gone about 300ish to last blood. We never saw where he had bedded and we never saw the arrow.

Ok, quiz time again. Let me know what you would of done UP TO THIS POINT and what would you of done from THIS POINT FORWARD. What have you learned from this new information about what is likely ahead and how to handle that.
No right or wrong answers, just trying to learn about something very important and very difficult.

Tough question to answer because we saw the shot entry and path, so knowing that it jades our answer a lot…but, i will play along not knowing what i know but also knowing a little about where you hunt and this took place.

After that many hours and seeing that kind of blood, i would have proceeded with trying to find the deer. Sounds like good blood, and while moving slowly it should have bled out quite a bit in that timeframe. So i would expect to find that animal soon given you have gone several hours and hundreds of yards now.

Having said all that, arrow clearly punched stomach and liver. Liver giving that kind of blood should have bled out within 4 hours. Without that decent blood and if were specks at that point, i would be more discouraged and continue slowly but ready to get help

only time i have seen deer (and elk) stop short and hunch up without tipping over have been liver shots. having seen that I would likely have left the animal alone for 6-8 hours. that said, based on your pictures, I would have thought you caught the bottom of both lungs...

Bloody corn and acting humped up generally indicates a gut shot. Liver shot is deadly and I’ve never personally seen on that takes 4 hours to die. Watched a guy lived shoot a Buffalo in September and it only took 45 min to die ( we watched it the whole time.)

I’ve shot a couple in the liver and they died pretty quick.

Agree TX I do not recall a good Liver hit that took an hour to die or go that far before laying down. I would think an arrow staying in the the gut and sticking out the other side would be uncomfortable for the deer to lay down, walk or what ever hence the moving slowly and not stopped other than to stand.

Possibly just part of the broadhead hit the liver. The hunching up can mean gut and with the corn and stomach content that was certainly part of the hit.

At that point of stopping I probably would have backed out for a couple hours or so, leaving several hours before dark to return and hopefully find him.

I have seen some tracks in the past where blood was down to almost nothing for the last 100 or so yards or at least and the only way I found those deer was a grid search or a dog. First track for someone else that I put my dog on, they had trailed that deer about 3/4 mile before getting to a point they could find no more blood and had bumped it 4 times. At least it was a cold night, the last 100 yards that deer turned around and backtracked about 30 yards then turned off and for the last 100 yards or so I trusted the dog and he found it. Looking where he stopped a couple times before we got to the deer in some thick stuff there were just small one or two small drops I would not have seen if not for him.

If all else fails call in a tracking dog. Or if you do not want to or cannot do that track until you can find no more blood at all. start a grid search from that well marked place.

If I can I like to have a tracking dog just as insurance, my eyes do not see blood as good as they once did and their nose is much better than my eyes ever were. We have a schnauzer on the house now that I believe will get the job done but lord I would hate the time needed to clean that hair up after a romp through the woods and fields around here. Lost my old Brittnay last year and he was pretty good at it. Have a little house dog now that I believe could be good if we needed her to find one.

You mean like this? Yeah you don't see it real often.

Passthru, with a screen name like yours I would expect more comments from you on a thread like this.

I think you may be over analyzing this.

I’ve make good shots that led to a very quick recovery. I’ve made iffy shots that led to a very quick recovery.

I’ve made good shots that I had to follow a deer for quite a ways.

Don’t try and extract too much data from one kill and try to apply it to every shot scenario going forward, as you will be sorely disappointed.

Thanks, TxTro, but I am well aware of that. Except the part about over analyze. I analyze everything A LOT, but to me it’s not OVER analyze. I’m all about huge sample sizes in all decision making so that’s why I’m hoping to get as much feedback from y’all along with all research that I can. I’m not making ANY decisions on this ONE example, but instead using it as just one example to get feedback off of. If I had a 100 examples I would post a 100 threads. I killed two doe so I hope to show those shots and get feedback from them.

If you found both does, you did good.

Yes, I recovered both does but doing good on a couple does is not the end game. Killing does is just practice. The ultimate goal is learn and practice so that when I shoot a single arrow once every few years at a very large buck that I will have done EVERYTHING that I can to insure recovery 100% of time. I know that 100% recovery rate isn’t realistic but 100% preparation is.
I’m still hunting and busy but I’ll try to wrap up this thread tonight and start one on the does to see what can be learned.

Proficiency with a bow, fast arrows, broad heads that cut gaping wounds are certainly important. The end game to be as prepared as possible to recover that large buck has very little to do with mechanics or statistical comparison. Most everyone can punch an arrow in the kill zone.

I frequent other forums focused on traditional archery more.

A well placed shot and a scary sharp head help but so does a low exit wound and a wide head.

I was gonna ask you what your goal is in all this but I think you answered it here.


The real answer is; the only way to get good at killing animals with a bow is to kill animals with a bow. I believe that no form of practice is going to 100% prepare you to kill that big buck other than killing animals.

Target practice is great to learn form, accuracy and to develop muscle memory so everything is as automatic as possible but the truth is even the best target practice session isn’t going to allow for the adrenaline spike and brain fog that develops when your quarry steps out and it’s about to get real, really quick.

Beyond that, nothing is 100% and nothing you can do will make it 100%. You cant prep for 100% because of factors that will arise in the field, and with the animal that is 100% out of your control.

Just get your bow, go out and kill as many animals as you can with that bow, that way when your big buck steps out you are as prepared as you can possibly be to take that shot because you have been there and done that and won’t mentally fall apart from the pressure of the situation, because you have been there many times before. Range practice can’t teach that or mimic that in any way, nor will trying to analyze every possible scenario based on a limited sample size.

Well said txtrophy85

The more you do it the better prepared you to keep doing it with good results.

Practice until muscle memory is there for the basics to make that shot. I like it to be automatic, to where you do not have to think about the shot that is as far as delivery.

The animals react to the shot differently and unlike the crossbow where we calculated the flight times and how far the shot could be before the animal reacted enough a vertical bow is different though there is a point that the animal will not have time to react is is shorter with an arrow going 180 to close to 300fps but often less with hunting weight arrows. (IBO arrows for the advertised bow speed are very light weight) than it is with a 400fps crossbow.

Shoot at enough animals and they will teach you something every time that may or may not translate to the next opportunity.

Hogs though they often react differently than deer are still a great confidence builder for hunting, and plentiful pests. On a couple occasions I have stalked into bow range and made a the kill but doing that with hogs is great fun and can happen.

This one tonight only went 20 yards blood everywhere. Sharp head in the right place . . .

Wrap up…
We bow shot, tracked and recovered four more since this thread so I hope I can remember this one.
Basically after the blood really slowed and we realized we had a marginally hit deer and he had gone a good ways, that we may need help. We called in a dog and he found him in short order. He was only another 75 yards from where we stopped. He had been dead a very short while so about 5 to 6 hours to die and 300/400 yards. Arrow was still in him. Didn’t do a real good autopsy but gut and apparently liver and maybe caught one lung.
The dog tracker appears to be very good and very experienced. He said a deer going over 150 to 200 yards is likely to go further if pushed so don’t. If heart/lungs hit well they usually die inside that 150/200. He also said a lot of blood does not always mean a short track. That was our mistake. I knew he was gut and maybe liver so knew to give longer time but so much blood made me think he was dead closer.
I’m more aware than most to not draw a lot of conclusions from a small sample size of info but as opposed to going off luck, I chose to gather all info I can. I’ll continue to video and document all details of our shots and listen to others experiences.
If I find time and think y’all are interested I will post more about the other kills from the last few days.
Edit.. Thanks for the feedback so far. Some I would like to address directly and I may if I find time.

I like dogs

I’ve shot between 30-40 deer with an arrow and still learning to this day. I tracked a deer for a friend that was hit forward in the brisket. Bled like crazy the whole way. We lost it after an very long track. Found it two days later. We tracked it on goggle earth. It went 1,600 yards. We were less than 100 yards when I lost track in waste high grass.

Their nose is many times better than my eyes.

This schnauzer likes deer. Leave deer videos playing and she watches them. The deer behind the house do not pay her attention as long as sheis in the fenced yard. Haven't put her on a trail yet but will on the next one even if short one just to see what she does. A few "blood" trails around tje yard and she is on them as soon as she hits it.

I would. Size means nothing. Nose and drive.

One of my Aunts that hunted a good bit had a small cocker that was a good one.

You learn a lot by doing but you can learn some from trailing them with dogs also. I have never called a "Tracker" but have worked some over the years with some pretty good dogs that just had that drive to trail. Lab I bought for my Dad was very good. Aunts cocker was. Cousins mixed breed mut was and my Brit was ok.

Some tracks you just will not recover. Sometimes the deer just did not agtee to die. Or did that where you cannot go.

A bit off topic but the few deer I have shot with a bow have been hit higher than I wanted and was aiming rather than too low like this one. In a static target I can put arrows in a tight group until I fatigue so I am sure of my aim point, abilities, and distance limits. My question to those here in this discussion is do you aim lower on live deer anticipating they will squat down a bit preparing to spring and run?

It’s hard enough to arrow a deer where they are. It’s harder to hit them where they are not. A deer can raise up as well as drop down. Don’t get too complicated or you could have a clean miss. At 320 feet per second at 20 yards, that’s not much time. Reaction is faster if they SEE the arrow. That’s why you cannot shoot at a deer on full alert.

If your shooting elevated remember the exit hole will be lower than the entry so aiming tick high isn’t a bad idea.

It’s been my experience that you can’t tell of a deer is gonna duck an arrow or not. I’ve shot at some deer with my trad bow that were alert and completely ducked the arrow and were gone by the time the arrow got there. I watched a video my son took where his buddy shot at a feeding doe that ducked the arrow from a reasonably fast compound bow. If I hadn’t seen the video I would have called b.s on the deer being able to duck an arrow at that distance (17 yards )

I shoot a compound going 280 fps and i have shot at several alert deer and at the short ranges I prefer (15-20 yards) they can’t get out of the way of the arrow or move enough to affect shot placement. I shot at a fully alert doe a month ago and the arrow blew right thru her before she reacted.

The sika I posted above had a long history of encounters and misses worthy of its own thread, but when he came in he was wise that something was up and he spooked and turned broadside at 33 yards, fully alert when I let it fly. Arrow hit him perfectly and he mule kicked and ran 40 yards and fell over. I would have hesitated to shoot at a fully alert whitetail at that range because I believe they can duck an arrow at that distance.

First year with a crossbow I tried it on an alert buck at 40 yards, 330fps is no match for an alert deer at that distance. I hit a tree right behind him where a limb came out of it and watched him run 50 yards to the right then back to the left he jumped a fence and turned left again watched him run over 200 yards total after the shot no blood on him or the bolt.

I have killed hogs hitting them right where I wanted out to 74 yards they react differently or at least the ones I have shot between 70 and 75 have.

Some deer just react differently. Killed a doe with a 45lb recurve at 27 yards, hit right where I wanted no reaction from her until she was shot think she knew something was up but would not say fully alert. Missed one at 17 that was no longer there by the time the arrow got to it.

Like said the exit is what you are looking for and the higher you are above your target the smaller the target becomes for a double lung shot, broadside is the largest target for that.

It does help to shoot when the deer has it's head up instead of down. Takes longer to load the muscles dropping down with head up than if its head is already down