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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You? [Re: Tbar] #8714761 10/22/22 04:43 AM
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Another Game Warden over reach?

I cannot fathom such lol

Biggest jokers in the game

Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You? [Re: The Dude Abides] #8714998 10/22/22 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by The Dude Abides
So if a property owner finds a camera on their property that they did not put there can they destroy or remove it?


i followed this case for a bit, it's a few years old if it's the same one. what i understood is no, you can't destroy the camera because it's government property. because he did take the camera down, that was how they got a search warrant, to retrieve government property. what i also understood was it wasn't illegal to take it down, but if you did, put it in a marked box by the gate and call them to come pick it up, i believe the camera was actually marked, property of such and such, or simply leave it where it was and block it's view with something. i think the gw actually cut stuff down to gain the view they wanted. seems to me that alone is destruction of private property


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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You? [Re: Tbar] #8715061 10/22/22 08:24 PM
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If I find a game cam on my lease that's not mine, first and only call will be to the landowner.


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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You? [Re: BenBob] #8715425 10/23/22 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by BenBob
If the game wardens are watching me, I am sure they are bored out of their gourd.


At least I could provide some colorful entertainment.


To be determined
Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You? [Re: Inge0071] #8715426 10/23/22 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Inge0071
Originally Posted by ntxtrapper
Originally Posted by Inge0071
Originally Posted by ntxtrapper
Actually, it is that black and white from a criminal legal perspective.

You misunderstand key legal distinctions.

Installing cameras on unfenced or public land is very different from fenced and/or private land. You need probable cause, at a minimum, to surveil an individual. In most cases, leos also need a warrant.



Actually no. I conducted both electronic and physical surveillance for many years and sent countless criminals to both state and federal prison with the evidence I acquired. I posted [a] link[s] to some of the more common cases that are now established case law on the subject but I guess you didn't read them.



Are you suggesting you conducted searches of private property without a warrant or probable cause, and those efforts served as a basis for convictions?

I read your article. This is Texas. We're in the 5th Circuit, not the 7th. We have strong protections for private property. While a game warden may enter private lands, your position is that he may REMAIN on fenced, private property in the form of a camera. This, without probable cause, reasonable suspicion, or a warrant.

I'd love to see a case that suggests that's the state of the law in Texas.


Would game wardens be prevented from doing this in Texas according to what you wrote? Maybe not. Consider they could still place such cameras in areas they believe crimes are being committed, photograph such crimes, then make an arrest. Subsequently it would be the defendant who has to appeal if convicted. Or maybe the evidence gets dismissed by the judge at trial? It reminds me of the old saying you might beat the rap but won’t beat the ride.


To be determined
Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You? [Re: deerfeeder] #8715694 10/23/22 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by deerfeeder
Originally Posted by Inge0071
Originally Posted by ntxtrapper
Actually, it is that black and white from a criminal legal perspective.

You misunderstand key legal distinctions.

Installing cameras on unfenced or public land is very different from fenced and/or private land. You need probable cause, at a minimum, to surveil an individual. In most cases, leos also need a warrant.



I disagree, you do surveillance on an individual to build probable cause.

^^^^^

Agreed.


From their own property no less. Surely, Reasonable Suspicion or Probable Cause MUST be a provable element before entering private property in the course of their duties.

Now....we all know LEO can/will come up with 'something' to make that happen on occasion, but it is supposed to be articulable in a court of law. Otherwise this is clearly overreach.

Last edited by flintknapper; 10/23/22 05:37 PM.

Spartans ask not...how many, but where!
Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You? [Re: deerfeeder] #8716687 10/24/22 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ntxtrapper

If you can’t read and understand this, it’s because you have no training or experience about arrest, search and seizure law.


As I said, you misunderstand key legal distinctions. The fact you go to Wikipedia or Google for articles, rather than actual law says it all.

I note you didn't answer my question about whether specific types of your surveillance efforts supported a conviction.

Originally Posted by deerfeeder


I disagree, you do surveillance on an individual to build probable cause.


Your point is well taken. I assume you agree surveillance must be conducted from a location the agent has a legal right to be. Otherwise, that evidence will be excluded faster than Biden can destroy an economy.


Pro Deo et patria
Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You? [Re: Inge0071] #8716742 10/24/22 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Inge0071
Originally Posted by ntxtrapper

If you can’t read and understand this, it’s because you have no training or experience about arrest, search and seizure law.


As I said, you misunderstand key legal distinctions. The fact you go to Wikipedia or Google for articles, rather than actual law says it all.

I note you didn't answer my question about whether specific types of your surveillance efforts supported a conviction.

Originally Posted by deerfeeder


I disagree, you do surveillance on an individual to build probable cause.


Your point is well taken. I assume you agree surveillance must be conducted from a location the agent has a legal right to be. Otherwise, that evidence will be excluded faster than Biden can destroy an economy.



That's known as case law and quoting it is exactly what occurs in court. You wouldn't know because your experience in the subject consists of attempting to self-educate yourself on the internet about arrest, search and seizure. It's quite obvious BTW. I'm still waiting for your proof of Texas being somehow excluded from the Open Fields Doctrine from the Supreme Court Of The United States. I'll save you some time. You can't


"Whosoever is delighted in solitude, is either a wild beast or a god."

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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You? [Re: ntxtrapper] #8716823 10/24/22 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ntxtrapper
That's known as case law and quoting it is exactly what occurs in court.

My paralegal is laughing at you as she types this response.

"Case law is the actual ruling - not what you read on Wikipedia, or excerpts you find online.

The distinction you continue to ignore is the reasonable expectation of privacy created by a locked gate, no trespassing signs, etc. May a game warden enter a fenced property in Texas in certain scenarios? Yes, obviously. But you're telling people the warden may clear brush, surveil the private road (not hunting or game animals) and leave a camera on fenced, private property to monitor access indefinitely.

That's not accurate, and it's why you can't point to surveillance you (supposedly) did that supported a conviction and is remotely similar."


Pro Deo et patria
Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You? [Re: Inge0071] #8716830 10/24/22 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Inge0071
Originally Posted by ntxtrapper
That's known as case law and quoting it is exactly what occurs in court.

My paralegal is laughing at you as she types this response.

"Case law is the actual ruling - not what you read on Wikipedia, or excerpts you find online.

The distinction you continue to ignore is the reasonable expectation of privacy created by a locked gate, no trespassing signs, etc. May a game warden enter a fenced property in Texas in certain scenarios? Yes, obviously. But you're telling people the warden may clear brush, surveil the private road (not hunting or game animals) and leave a camera on fenced, private property to monitor access indefinitely.

That's not accurate, and it's why you can't point to surveillance you (supposedly) did that supported a conviction and is remotely similar."



Boom...mic drop! flag


Originally Posted by Superduty
I am still looking for the perfect apron, one with reinforced knee areas would be perfect.

Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You? [Re: Inge0071] #8716844 10/24/22 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Inge0071
Originally Posted by ntxtrapper
That's known as case law and quoting it is exactly what occurs in court.

My paralegal is laughing at you as she types this response.

"Case law is the actual ruling - not what you read on Wikipedia, or excerpts you find online.

The distinction you continue to ignore is the reasonable expectation of privacy created by a locked gate, no trespassing signs, etc. May a game warden enter a fenced property in Texas in certain scenarios? Yes, obviously. But you're telling people the warden may clear brush, surveil the private road (not hunting or game animals) and leave a camera on fenced, private property to monitor access indefinitely.

That's not accurate, and it's why you can't point to surveillance you (supposedly) did that supported a conviction and is remotely similar."


What statute(s) says they can't?

And I ask from genuine curiosity, being of the opinion that Hester vs. US opened a big can of ripe-for-infringement worms a long time ago. While at the same time being intimately familiar with and supportive of similar surveillance (Operation Drawbridge, for example).

Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You? [Re: TOM-M] #8716914 10/24/22 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by TOM-M


What statute(s) says they can't?

And I ask from genuine curiosity, being of the opinion that Hester vs. US opened a big can of ripe-for-infringement worms a long time ago. While at the same time being intimately familiar with and supportive of similar surveillance (Operation Drawbridge, for example).


He won’t be able to provide that because it doesn’t exist.


"Whosoever is delighted in solitude, is either a wild beast or a god."

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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You? [Re: TOM-M] #8717161 10/25/22 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by TOM-M
What statute(s) says they can't?

And I ask from genuine curiosity, being of the opinion that Hester vs. US opened a big can of ripe-for-infringement worms a long time ago. While at the same time being intimately familiar with and supportive of similar surveillance (Operation Drawbridge, for example).


Re Operation Drawbridge, I'll be sure to ask Paxton. But my recollection is DPS causes those cameras to be placed by agreement, and for a specific, outward-facing purpose.

Statute? Post-Katz, the Supreme Court looks to determine whether an individual intended to keep information private. TPC §30.05 says it's illegal for anyone to enter property that is fenced, posted with at least one sign, or marked with purple paint on trees or posts. Texas Game Wardens are not excluded by statute, despite the fact TPWC §12.103(a) allows Texas Game Wardens to enter on any land or water...to enforce the game and fish laws of the state.

In recent years, the SC has repeatedly revisited trespass and the evolving Katz test to address technology. (2012- warrant needed to put a GPS device on vehicle and discussing trespass onto private parking lot to change battery.)

In the OP's example, the game wardens remained in the form of a camera. They cleared brush to assist the view. They were watching not the hunt or wildlife, but the private road within the gated land. Kinda creepy, and they could have obtained that information on the public road, but chose to trespass instead.

In Texas, statute protects the landowner's reasonable expectation of privacy because even if wardens are allowed to enter temporarily, in certain instances, there is no statute which allows them to remain indefinitely, either in person or via camera.


Pro Deo et patria
Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You? [Re: ntxtrapper] #8717346 10/25/22 02:50 AM
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Originally Posted by ntxtrapper
Originally Posted by TOM-M


What statute(s) says they can't?

And I ask from genuine curiosity, being of the opinion that Hester vs. US opened a big can of ripe-for-infringement worms a long time ago. While at the same time being intimately familiar with and supportive of similar surveillance (Operation Drawbridge, for example).


He won’t be able to provide that because it doesn’t exist.


And he still can't. Just opinion with nothing to back it up.


"Whosoever is delighted in solitude, is either a wild beast or a god."

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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You? [Re: Tbar] #8717555 10/25/22 01:43 PM
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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You? [Re: Inge0071] #8717731 10/25/22 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Inge0071
there is no statute which allows them to remain indefinitely, either in person or via camera.



Is there a statute that prohibits them?


To be determined
Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You? [Re: TurkeyHunter] #8718006 10/25/22 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by TurkeyHunter
Originally Posted by Inge0071
there is no statute which allows them to remain indefinitely, either in person or via camera.



Is there a statute that prohibits them?


It is a shame that in this country we would need a statue to prohibit them.

Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You? [Re: Wool E. Booger] #8718966 10/26/22 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Wool E. Booger
Originally Posted by TurkeyHunter
Originally Posted by Inge0071
there is no statute which allows them to remain indefinitely, either in person or via camera.



Is there a statute that prohibits them?


It is a shame that in this country we would need a statue to prohibit them.


Agree with that.


Originally Posted by bill oxner
I just turned it on . I was looking bird dogs in the butt this morning.


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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You? [Re: Wool E. Booger] #8718998 10/26/22 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by TurkeyHunter
Is there a statute that prohibits them?


Yes, the two provisions cited do exactly that. In criminal cases, Texas has the burden to prove an alleged search is warranted and supportable.

Originally Posted by Wool E. Booger
It is a shame that in this country we would need a statue to prohibit them.

+1


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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You? [Re: Tbar] #8719156 10/27/22 02:14 AM
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rofl


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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You? [Re: Tbar] #8720162 10/28/22 01:02 PM
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If I found a camera on my property that I didn't put there it would get shot a bunch or the tree it was attached to would get bulldozed into a burn pile and burned.

Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You? [Re: TOM-M] #8720165 10/28/22 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by TOM-M
Originally Posted by hook_n_line
We find them on a place I hunt in Laredo all the time. I think it's the Feds though.

CBP can pretty much put cameras anywhere they want to within 25 (I think that's correct) miles of the border.


I have a bunch of land just south of Terlingua Texas that straddles the border and I've never found a camera on it but then again there's not a tree to attach one to and pretty much nothing alive out there to even look at.

The idea of Law Enforcement Officers entering private property and planting cameras even if there's case law that permits it is a slap in the face to civil liberties and they better hope I'm never on a jury where the evidence they're presenting against the defendant came from such a source because I'll let the guy walk even if I'm a single juror that has to hang the jury.

I've said it before and I'll say it again here. When the founding fathers were discussing their fears of having a standing army in the United States they were not describing the military we have today. They were describing law enforcement as it is practiced in the United States today.

Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You? [Re: Tbar] #8738137 11/19/22 04:39 PM
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I'm against such tactics even if legal. This in my mind is the classic left wing approach of identifying a person and searching for a crime. This is not how law enforcement of any kind is suppose to work.





Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You? [Re: Concho] #8739659 11/21/22 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Concho
I'm against such tactics even if legal. This in my mind is the classic left wing approach of identifying a person and searching for a crime. This is not how law enforcement of any kind is suppose to work.


Spot on!


Smokey Bear---Lone Star State.
Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You? [Re: Tbar] #8740055 11/22/22 03:19 PM
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You'd think with the current regime so openly acting illegally against patriots more people would be upset over this. Anything they can do against what you dislike can be done against you.

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