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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You?
[Re: Tbar]
#8714761
10/22/22 04:43 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 11,658
GusWayne
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Posts: 11,658 |
Another Game Warden over reach?
I cannot fathom such lol
Biggest jokers in the game
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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You?
[Re: The Dude Abides]
#8714998
10/22/22 06:11 PM
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Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 449
spankyttx
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 449 |
So if a property owner finds a camera on their property that they did not put there can they destroy or remove it? i followed this case for a bit, it's a few years old if it's the same one. what i understood is no, you can't destroy the camera because it's government property. because he did take the camera down, that was how they got a search warrant, to retrieve government property. what i also understood was it wasn't illegal to take it down, but if you did, put it in a marked box by the gate and call them to come pick it up, i believe the camera was actually marked, property of such and such, or simply leave it where it was and block it's view with something. i think the gw actually cut stuff down to gain the view they wanted. seems to me that alone is destruction of private property
LI-SI-WI-NWI
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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You?
[Re: Tbar]
#8715061
10/22/22 08:24 PM
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 15,973
Jimbo1
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If I find a game cam on my lease that's not mine, first and only call will be to the landowner.
FJB - Lets Go Brandon BBB - Bring Back Better Awake - Not Woke!
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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You?
[Re: BenBob]
#8715425
10/23/22 05:39 AM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 19,814
TurkeyHunter
THF Celebrity
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If the game wardens are watching me, I am sure they are bored out of their gourd. At least I could provide some colorful entertainment.
To be determined
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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You?
[Re: Inge0071]
#8715426
10/23/22 05:55 AM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 19,814
TurkeyHunter
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Actually, it is that black and white from a criminal legal perspective. You misunderstand key legal distinctions. Installing cameras on unfenced or public land is very different from fenced and/or private land. You need probable cause, at a minimum, to surveil an individual. In most cases, leos also need a warrant. Actually no. I conducted both electronic and physical surveillance for many years and sent countless criminals to both state and federal prison with the evidence I acquired. I posted [a] link[s] to some of the more common cases that are now established case law on the subject but I guess you didn't read them. Are you suggesting you conducted searches of private property without a warrant or probable cause, and those efforts served as a basis for convictions? I read your article. This is Texas. We're in the 5th Circuit, not the 7th. We have strong protections for private property. While a game warden may enter private lands, your position is that he may REMAIN on fenced, private property in the form of a camera. This, without probable cause, reasonable suspicion, or a warrant. I'd love to see a case that suggests that's the state of the law in Texas. Would game wardens be prevented from doing this in Texas according to what you wrote? Maybe not. Consider they could still place such cameras in areas they believe crimes are being committed, photograph such crimes, then make an arrest. Subsequently it would be the defendant who has to appeal if convicted. Or maybe the evidence gets dismissed by the judge at trial? It reminds me of the old saying you might beat the rap but won’t beat the ride.
To be determined
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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You?
[Re: deerfeeder]
#8715694
10/23/22 05:36 PM
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Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,162
flintknapper
THF Trophy Hunter
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Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,162 |
Actually, it is that black and white from a criminal legal perspective. You misunderstand key legal distinctions. Installing cameras on unfenced or public land is very different from fenced and/or private land. You need probable cause, at a minimum, to surveil an individual. In most cases, leos also need a warrant. I disagree, you do surveillance on an individual to build probable cause. ^^^^^ Agreed. From their own property no less. Surely, Reasonable Suspicion or Probable Cause MUST be a provable element before entering private property in the course of their duties. Now....we all know LEO can/will come up with 'something' to make that happen on occasion, but it is supposed to be articulable in a court of law. Otherwise this is clearly overreach.
Last edited by flintknapper; 10/23/22 05:37 PM.
Spartans ask not...how many, but where!
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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You?
[Re: deerfeeder]
#8716687
10/24/22 05:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 195
Inge0071
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 195 |
If you can’t read and understand this, it’s because you have no training or experience about arrest, search and seizure law.
As I said, you misunderstand key legal distinctions. The fact you go to Wikipedia or Google for articles, rather than actual law says it all. I note you didn't answer my question about whether specific types of your surveillance efforts supported a conviction.
I disagree, you do surveillance on an individual to build probable cause.
Your point is well taken. I assume you agree surveillance must be conducted from a location the agent has a legal right to be. Otherwise, that evidence will be excluded faster than Biden can destroy an economy.
Pro Deo et patria
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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You?
[Re: Inge0071]
#8716742
10/24/22 06:34 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 12,168
ntxtrapper
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If you can’t read and understand this, it’s because you have no training or experience about arrest, search and seizure law.
As I said, you misunderstand key legal distinctions. The fact you go to Wikipedia or Google for articles, rather than actual law says it all. I note you didn't answer my question about whether specific types of your surveillance efforts supported a conviction.
I disagree, you do surveillance on an individual to build probable cause.
Your point is well taken. I assume you agree surveillance must be conducted from a location the agent has a legal right to be. Otherwise, that evidence will be excluded faster than Biden can destroy an economy. That's known as case law and quoting it is exactly what occurs in court. You wouldn't know because your experience in the subject consists of attempting to self-educate yourself on the internet about arrest, search and seizure. It's quite obvious BTW. I'm still waiting for your proof of Texas being somehow excluded from the Open Fields Doctrine from the Supreme Court Of The United States. I'll save you some time. You can't
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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You?
[Re: ntxtrapper]
#8716823
10/24/22 07:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 195
Inge0071
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 195 |
That's known as case law and quoting it is exactly what occurs in court. My paralegal is laughing at you as she types this response. "Case law is the actual ruling - not what you read on Wikipedia, or excerpts you find online. The distinction you continue to ignore is the reasonable expectation of privacy created by a locked gate, no trespassing signs, etc. May a game warden enter a fenced property in Texas in certain scenarios? Yes, obviously. But you're telling people the warden may clear brush, surveil the private road (not hunting or game animals) and leave a camera on fenced, private property to monitor access indefinitely. That's not accurate, and it's why you can't point to surveillance you (supposedly) did that supported a conviction and is remotely similar."
Pro Deo et patria
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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You?
[Re: Inge0071]
#8716830
10/24/22 07:47 PM
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,826
The Dude Abides
THF Trophy Hunter
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,826 |
That's known as case law and quoting it is exactly what occurs in court. My paralegal is laughing at you as she types this response. "Case law is the actual ruling - not what you read on Wikipedia, or excerpts you find online. The distinction you continue to ignore is the reasonable expectation of privacy created by a locked gate, no trespassing signs, etc. May a game warden enter a fenced property in Texas in certain scenarios? Yes, obviously. But you're telling people the warden may clear brush, surveil the private road (not hunting or game animals) and leave a camera on fenced, private property to monitor access indefinitely. That's not accurate, and it's why you can't point to surveillance you (supposedly) did that supported a conviction and is remotely similar." Boom...mic drop!
I am still looking for the perfect apron, one with reinforced knee areas would be perfect.
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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You?
[Re: Inge0071]
#8716844
10/24/22 08:05 PM
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Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 112
TOM-M
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 112 |
That's known as case law and quoting it is exactly what occurs in court. My paralegal is laughing at you as she types this response. "Case law is the actual ruling - not what you read on Wikipedia, or excerpts you find online. The distinction you continue to ignore is the reasonable expectation of privacy created by a locked gate, no trespassing signs, etc. May a game warden enter a fenced property in Texas in certain scenarios? Yes, obviously. But you're telling people the warden may clear brush, surveil the private road (not hunting or game animals) and leave a camera on fenced, private property to monitor access indefinitely. That's not accurate, and it's why you can't point to surveillance you (supposedly) did that supported a conviction and is remotely similar." What statute(s) says they can't? And I ask from genuine curiosity, being of the opinion that Hester vs. US opened a big can of ripe-for-infringement worms a long time ago. While at the same time being intimately familiar with and supportive of similar surveillance (Operation Drawbridge, for example).
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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You?
[Re: TOM-M]
#8716914
10/24/22 08:59 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 12,168
ntxtrapper
THF Celebrity
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Posts: 12,168 |
What statute(s) says they can't?
And I ask from genuine curiosity, being of the opinion that Hester vs. US opened a big can of ripe-for-infringement worms a long time ago. While at the same time being intimately familiar with and supportive of similar surveillance (Operation Drawbridge, for example).
He won’t be able to provide that because it doesn’t exist.
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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You?
[Re: TOM-M]
#8717161
10/25/22 12:30 AM
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Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 195
Inge0071
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 195 |
What statute(s) says they can't?
And I ask from genuine curiosity, being of the opinion that Hester vs. US opened a big can of ripe-for-infringement worms a long time ago. While at the same time being intimately familiar with and supportive of similar surveillance (Operation Drawbridge, for example). Re Operation Drawbridge, I'll be sure to ask Paxton. But my recollection is DPS causes those cameras to be placed by agreement, and for a specific, outward-facing purpose. Statute? Post-Katz, the Supreme Court looks to determine whether an individual intended to keep information private. TPC §30.05 says it's illegal for anyone to enter property that is fenced, posted with at least one sign, or marked with purple paint on trees or posts. Texas Game Wardens are not excluded by statute, despite the fact TPWC §12.103(a) allows Texas Game Wardens to enter on any land or water...to enforce the game and fish laws of the state. In recent years, the SC has repeatedly revisited trespass and the evolving Katz test to address technology. (2012- warrant needed to put a GPS device on vehicle and discussing trespass onto private parking lot to change battery.) In the OP's example, the game wardens remained in the form of a camera. They cleared brush to assist the view. They were watching not the hunt or wildlife, but the private road within the gated land. Kinda creepy, and they could have obtained that information on the public road, but chose to trespass instead. In Texas, statute protects the landowner's reasonable expectation of privacy because even if wardens are allowed to enter temporarily, in certain instances, there is no statute which allows them to remain indefinitely, either in person or via camera.
Pro Deo et patria
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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You?
[Re: ntxtrapper]
#8717346
10/25/22 02:50 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 12,168
ntxtrapper
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Posts: 12,168 |
What statute(s) says they can't?
And I ask from genuine curiosity, being of the opinion that Hester vs. US opened a big can of ripe-for-infringement worms a long time ago. While at the same time being intimately familiar with and supportive of similar surveillance (Operation Drawbridge, for example).
He won’t be able to provide that because it doesn’t exist. And he still can't. Just opinion with nothing to back it up.
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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You?
[Re: Tbar]
#8717555
10/25/22 01:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 29,129
TXHOGSLAYER
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 29,129 |
LETS GO BRANDON
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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You?
[Re: Inge0071]
#8717731
10/25/22 04:43 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 19,814
TurkeyHunter
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Posts: 19,814 |
there is no statute which allows them to remain indefinitely, either in person or via camera.
Is there a statute that prohibits them?
To be determined
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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You?
[Re: TurkeyHunter]
#8718006
10/25/22 10:11 PM
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 636
Wool E. Booger
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 636 |
there is no statute which allows them to remain indefinitely, either in person or via camera.
Is there a statute that prohibits them? It is a shame that in this country we would need a statue to prohibit them.
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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You?
[Re: Wool E. Booger]
#8718966
10/26/22 11:13 PM
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Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 12,345
Duck_Hunter
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there is no statute which allows them to remain indefinitely, either in person or via camera.
Is there a statute that prohibits them? It is a shame that in this country we would need a statue to prohibit them. Agree with that.
I just turned it on . I was looking bird dogs in the butt this morning.
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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You?
[Re: Wool E. Booger]
#8718998
10/26/22 11:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 195
Inge0071
Woodsman
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Woodsman
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 195 |
Is there a statute that prohibits them? Yes, the two provisions cited do exactly that. In criminal cases, Texas has the burden to prove an alleged search is warranted and supportable. It is a shame that in this country we would need a statue to prohibit them. +1
Pro Deo et patria
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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You?
[Re: Tbar]
#8719156
10/27/22 02:14 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 12,168
ntxtrapper
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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You?
[Re: Tbar]
#8720162
10/28/22 01:02 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,239
blkt2
Veteran Tracker
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Posts: 3,239 |
If I found a camera on my property that I didn't put there it would get shot a bunch or the tree it was attached to would get bulldozed into a burn pile and burned.
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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You?
[Re: TOM-M]
#8720165
10/28/22 01:07 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,239
blkt2
Veteran Tracker
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We find them on a place I hunt in Laredo all the time. I think it's the Feds though. CBP can pretty much put cameras anywhere they want to within 25 (I think that's correct) miles of the border. I have a bunch of land just south of Terlingua Texas that straddles the border and I've never found a camera on it but then again there's not a tree to attach one to and pretty much nothing alive out there to even look at. The idea of Law Enforcement Officers entering private property and planting cameras even if there's case law that permits it is a slap in the face to civil liberties and they better hope I'm never on a jury where the evidence they're presenting against the defendant came from such a source because I'll let the guy walk even if I'm a single juror that has to hang the jury. I've said it before and I'll say it again here. When the founding fathers were discussing their fears of having a standing army in the United States they were not describing the military we have today. They were describing law enforcement as it is practiced in the United States today.
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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You?
[Re: Tbar]
#8738137
11/19/22 04:39 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 26,246
Concho
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I'm against such tactics even if legal. This in my mind is the classic left wing approach of identifying a person and searching for a crime. This is not how law enforcement of any kind is suppose to work.
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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You?
[Re: Concho]
#8739659
11/21/22 11:12 PM
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Joined: May 2017
Posts: 5,198
Smokey Bear
THF Trophy Hunter
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Posts: 5,198 |
I'm against such tactics even if legal. This in my mind is the classic left wing approach of identifying a person and searching for a crime. This is not how law enforcement of any kind is suppose to work. Spot on!
Smokey Bear---Lone Star State.
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Re: Are Game Wardens Watching You?
[Re: Tbar]
#8740055
11/22/22 03:19 PM
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Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 484
howl
Bird Dog
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Bird Dog
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 484 |
You'd think with the current regime so openly acting illegally against patriots more people would be upset over this. Anything they can do against what you dislike can be done against you.
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