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Re: IRay 1280x1024 [Re: BigPig] #8687089 09/13/22 03:47 PM
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Actually now after seeing Jason,s response I will have to say $31,995.


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Re: IRay 1280x1024 [Re: thermal time] #8687300 09/13/22 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by thermal time
Actually now after seeing Jason,s response I will have to say $31,995.


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Re: IRay 1280x1024 [Re: BigPig] #8687479 09/14/22 02:40 AM
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Update: The big "release" is now currently scheduled for midday Thursday unless iRay USA changes something. We were asked to hold our podcast from airing super early in the morning like we usually do. So hopefully by the middle of the day all the details will be released.

Jason


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Re: IRay 1280x1024 [Re: Dzhitshard] #8688224 09/15/22 03:15 PM
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WOW ! only $17999.00 . Huge leap for sure. Represents a .58" patch per pixel at 100 yards vs .89" patch per pixel at 100 yards for the Halo LR. Just not sure how the hunter community will feel about the 30Hz frame rate. Hey N-Vision Leonardo DNS has a 1280 X 1024 sensor that is 10 micron at what looks like a reasonable price in large quantities. It also runs at a 30Hz frame rate. Hope you are paying attention. This will be interesting.

Last edited by thermal time; 09/15/22 04:03 PM.

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Re: IRay 1280x1024 [Re: thermal time] #8688375 09/15/22 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by thermal time
WOW ! only $17999.00 . Huge leap for sure. Represents a .58" patch per pixel at 100 yards vs .89" patch per pixel at 100 yards for the Halo LR. Just not sure how the hunter community will feel about the 30Hz frame rate.


My first thermal was 30hz - bugged me enough to sell it within a few months and upgrade to something that was 60hz. Curious if the resolution out weights the slow frame rate.

Re: IRay 1280x1024 [Re: BigPig] #8688395 09/15/22 08:32 PM
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Govt uses 30 HZ….

Shouldn’t be a problem confused


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Re: IRay 1280x1024 [Re: Pig_Popper] #8688736 09/16/22 04:09 AM
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I am a little unsure about the 30Hz frame rate just due to past experiences as well. Would have to test drive for sure. Adding a third variable into the why did I miss the target worries me more though. Having an optical mount that moves under recoil just goes against everything until now ? Was it because of the gun or the optic or the mount that is no longer rigid or static but instead dynamic. Anything that moves in such a way would wear over cyclic use it would seem. Just the mount itself seems more revolutionary than the optics. And how could I possible determine if the mount was the problem ?


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Re: IRay 1280x1024 [Re: thermal time] #8688749 09/16/22 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by JDP Ranch
Originally Posted by thermal time
WOW ! only $17999.00 . Huge leap for sure. Represents a .58" patch per pixel at 100 yards vs .89" patch per pixel at 100 yards for the Halo LR. Just not sure how the hunter community will feel about the 30Hz frame rate.


My first thermal was 30hz - bugged me enough to sell it within a few months and upgrade to something that was 60hz. Curious if the resolution out weights the slow frame rate.


30 hz was the standard for a number of years and the thermal community was good with it. That is slightly faster than the movies you using to see in the theater that were 25 frames per second. More is obviously better, but 30 is far from being dysfunctional. I have not seen anything in the videos so far that would indicate that the image is suffering significantly as a result of the 30 hz rate. With that said, I haven't seen anything so far that isn't chosen specifically for release, either.


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Re: IRay 1280x1024 [Re: Double Naught Spy] #8688868 09/16/22 12:55 PM
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Even though the BAE core is running at 60Hz the video output is the old standard RS-170 TV format which is 30Hz full frame rate. Just 2 interlaced fields, all even lines followed by all the odd lines, and there does not seem to be much issue there. Guess just depends on how fast they are processing the data and the format used to the display. With enough fast action videos that will be coming forward anyone's skepticism should get resolved. Another issue is what these video's represent is unknown. I suspect that they represent the video recorders output not the view represented through the eyepiece. I could understand that a recording thru the eyepiece may not be as high definition but would represent any delay or blurring aspects that would be seen from a shooters perspective.

Just a bit concerned about the mount though. I just have not seen anything like this until this announcement. Perhaps others could chime in if anything has existed like this before ?

Last edited by thermal time; 09/16/22 02:37 PM.

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Re: IRay 1280x1024 [Re: BigPig] #8689115 09/16/22 04:25 PM
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Hey guys sorry I was MIA yesterday but we were swamped in the office all day and had a lot going on with the 1280 release.

So by now everyone has seen all the info and I'll bring up a few things that I've seen mentioned repeatedly on Facebook and some of the other social platforms.

1) Yes the price is really $17,999. iRay USA worked hard to get the scope down to this price. We were actually expecting it to come in around $22k-$25K. I know that seems nuts but these sensors are ridiculously expensive and it took a lot to get a scope built around them. I can tell you this....iRay USA and the dealers are making a smaller margin on this than any other optic. I've been in this business for nearly 10 years and I've never had such a small margin on a scope. Everyone is taking cuts to get the price down to where it is.

2) More on the price. There is a lot to be said here but in many ways the price is irrelevant. It's out of the reach of the vast majority of night hunters today but it doesn't matter because it now exists! Now there is incentive for iRay to drop the price as their component prices drop, now there is incentive for every other thermal company to create their own 1280 and try to make it even cheaper. Long term this is good news for everyone and eventually this will push down 640 thermal prices. It won't happen tomorrow and it might be years but it will eventually happen. It's just the way technology works.

The negativity and hatefulness surrounding this optic that so many "man-children" in the hunting sport are exhibiting is embarrassing and sad. That's all I'll say because that's about as nice as I can be on that. laugh This scope is a HUGE win for whole night hunting community even though the vast majority of us will never be able to afford to own one.

3) 30hz refresh rate keeps coming up. DNS said it well in his comment above, the entire thermal industry was 30hz for years. Back when the 50hz and 60hz scopes were starting to come out and people would ask how big of a deal it was and if they had to spend the extra money to buy one, I'd ask if they were hunting out of a fast moving vehicle or out of a helicopter. If not, there was no reason for concern. I understand there were some scopes the 30hz might have been noticeable on but there were probably other factors that were contributing to that being an issue.

We had the RS75 1280 for several weeks and were under the impression it was 50hz or 60hz. At no time did Hans or myself ever even consider that it wasn't 50hz+. When we were told it was 30hz we both said "No possible way". In my opinion this is a 100% non-issue. Like I said, we had no clue it wasn't 50hz+ and would have never suspected any different.

4) There have been guys questioning the 2x base magnification choice and saying it should have been 3x. That might be fine for some guys but it would rule out a huge amount of hunters (including a lot of hog hunters) who prefer a lower base mag and a wider FOV. What has to be remembered is the image quality is SO good with over 1.3 million pixels that even at 2x the ID range is insane. When you jump up to 4x you're still at 640x480. This is a 2 in one scope. Sure there are guys who are long range hunters and would love to have a 3x or 4x base mag on this scope and maybe that will be an option one day but as it stands, 2x is going to be the "best of both worlds" in my opinion because personally as a close range East Texas hog hunter, all my personal scopes are always 2x. But finally, now one scope can do both short and long range and do it really really well.

5) Someone asked about the recoil isolating or recoil absorbing mount. That is the same technology that is in the mount that comes with the iRay Rico Micro. With that mount the Micro can be put on a 50 BMG. WIth a regular mount it's only rated for a .300win. With this recoil absorbing mount on the RS75 it's rated for a .300win/7mm Mag. Obviously they are trying to protect the sensor but the mount seems to work perfectly and if you weren't told there was a spring in there to absorb the recoil I don't believe you'd ever know it; at least not on the mount we had. We were told the final mount would have a few small changes.

At the end of the day, I just don't think people can comprehend 1280 resolution in a thermal scope until they've seen it. I know I couldn't. Is it for everyone? No and everyone including iRay USA knows that. But what it is, is the leap in technology we've all been waiting for. I will go on the record now and say that in 3-5 years (probably less) the thermal optic landscape will look different and it will all filter back upstream to this release. Not to be overly dramatic but I believe everything changed yesterday. Again, the benefits won't come tomorrow but I believe they will come sooner now than we'd previously hoped or expected.


Jason




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Re: IRay 1280x1024 [Re: BigPig] #8689558 09/17/22 02:39 AM
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It would be a good candidate for a rental unit. That will allow some more folks tro experience the tech while waiting for the price curve to drop off in a few years.

I’m old enough to have seen this sort of thing in many technological advancxes over the last 3 decades or so. Anybody remember when using your cell phone in the late 80’s cost you around $1.50 per minute? Just the computing power most of us are holding in our hands every day would have been a very expensive proposition to own a few decades ago. It would have also been a very large machine.

Re: IRay 1280x1024 [Re: GNTX] #8689920 09/17/22 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by GNTX
It would be a good candidate for a rental unit. That will allow some more folks tro experience the tech while waiting for the price curve to drop off in a few years.

I’m old enough to have seen this sort of thing in many technological advancxes over the last 3 decades or so. Anybody remember when using your cell phone in the late 80’s cost you around $1.50 per minute? Just the computing power most of us are holding in our hands every day would have been a very expensive proposition to own a few decades ago. It would have also been a very large machine.


I thought about the rental as well but most $3,000-$5,000 scopes rent for $300/weekend and being $18,000 I don't see how you could justify renting it out for less than $800-$1,000 and I'm not sure who would pay that? Also, the insurance on shipping it will be $225-$250 each way, so that's $500 in insurance round trip and that's not even including the actual shipping cost. You're right though, it would be a cool way for people to get to test drive it knowing they will never actually purchase one.

I agree with you on the phones and its interesting you brought that up. I saw an article the other day that said the first flip phone was made in about 1989/1990 by Motorola and it cost over $3,000. I found online inflation calculator that says it's about $6,800 today. For a phone! Seems crazy to us today but this is how technology works and people screaming about the price of this scope seem to have short memories. The cost WILL come down over time. It might take years but it will happen.


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Re: IRay 1280x1024 [Re: Outdoor Legacy] #8690008 09/17/22 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Outdoor Legacy


At the end of the day, I just don't think people can comprehend 1280 resolution in a thermal scope until they've seen it. I know I couldn't. Is it for everyone? No and everyone including iRay USA knows that. But what it is, is the leap in technology we've all been waiting for. I will go on the record now and say that in 3-5 years (probably less) the thermal optic landscape will look different and it will all filter back upstream to this release. Not to be overly dramatic but I believe everything changed yesterday. Again, the benefits won't come tomorrow but I believe they will come sooner now than we'd previously hoped or expected.


Jason



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Re: IRay 1280x1024 [Re: BigPig] #8690405 09/18/22 05:48 PM
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Id be in if it weren’t for this new Halo XRF in my safe

Re: IRay 1280x1024 [Re: BigPig] #8690448 09/18/22 07:02 PM
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Additional footage, some with animals on the move


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Re: IRay 1280x1024 [Re: Outdoor Legacy] #8690602 09/18/22 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Outdoor Legacy
Originally Posted by GNTX
It would be a good candidate for a rental unit. That will allow some more folks tro experience the tech while waiting for the price curve to drop off in a few years.

I’m old enough to have seen this sort of thing in many technological advancxes over the last 3 decades or so. Anybody remember when using your cell phone in the late 80’s cost you around $1.50 per minute? Just the computing power most of us are holding in our hands every day would have been a very expensive proposition to own a few decades ago. It would have also been a very large machine.


I thought about the rental as well but most $3,000-$5,000 scopes rent for $300/weekend and being $18,000 I don't see how you could justify renting it out for less than $800-$1,000 and I'm not sure who would pay that? Also, the insurance on shipping it will be $225-$250 each way, so that's $500 in insurance round trip and that's not even including the actual shipping cost. You're right though, it would be a cool way for people to get to test drive it knowing they will never actually purchase one.



Jason, just wondering if someone buys one of these units and it has to be returned to Iray USA for repair who pays for the shipping and insurance costs? I was quite surprised that when I had to return a N-Vision device on a RMA it cost me $150.00 for shipping and insurance. They did pay for the return shipping. These specifics are never detailed in anyone's warranty.


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Re: IRay 1280x1024 [Re: thermal time] #8690959 09/19/22 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by thermal time


Jason, just wondering if someone buys one of these units and it has to be returned to Iray USA for repair who pays for the shipping and insurance costs? I was quite surprised that when I had to return a N-Vision device on a RMA it cost me $150.00 for shipping and insurance. They did pay for the return shipping. These specifics are never detailed in anyone's warranty.


Very good question. I can only speak to what iRay USA is currently doing, but so far they have been providing pre-paid shipping labels to and from their repair facility. I know N-Vision will do the same sometimes but I think it might have to do with how recently you purchased the unit, I'm not 100% sure their policy but I know they don't always pay it both ways, as you found out. Bering pays both ways, Pulsar and AGM only pay return shipping to the customer. And take all that with a grain of salt because as you said, it's not detailed in anyone's warranty and policies change. Pulsar used to pay both ways but that changed as the shipping costs shot up over time.

There's no question it's a legit question because shipping a scope like is no cheap task.

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Re: IRay 1280x1024 [Re: Outdoor Legacy] #8693280 09/22/22 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Outdoor Legacy


3) 30hz refresh rate keeps coming up. DNS said it well in his comment above, the entire thermal industry was 30hz for years. Back when the 50hz and 60hz scopes were starting to come out and people would ask how big of a deal it was and if they had to spend the extra money to buy one, I'd ask if they were hunting out of a fast moving vehicle or out of a helicopter. If not, there was no reason for concern. I understand there were some scopes the 30hz might have been noticeable on but there were probably other factors that were contributing to that being an issue.

We had the RS75 1280 for several weeks and were under the impression it was 50hz or 60hz. At no time did Hans or myself ever even consider that it wasn't 50hz+. When we were told it was 30hz we both said "No possible way". In my opinion this is a 100% non-issue. Like I said, we had no clue it wasn't 50hz+ and would have never suspected any different.



Good to hear.

I started with a Flir/Armasight that was at 30hz. My father couldn't tell the difference when I upgraded to a unit that was 60hz, but it was noticeable for me. I'm fairly young being in my late 30s and grew up playing FPS computer games and have spent my adulthood in front of a screen. The difference in refresh rates are something I seem to pick up more so than others.

A lot of people say that no one should really notice the difference between a 60hz and 120hz computer monitor. The difference to me is night and day - especially since I scroll through documents/reports/websites often. After an update to my graphics driver, my refresh rate got knocked down to 60hz. Noticed right away that my refresh rate was reduced.

That said... 30hz was entirely usable for the way I hunt. Just enjoy having less lag when quickly scanning from one area to another. It is indeed very minor, but if I'm paying $18k for a thermal - that would probably bug me - especially knowing a 60hz could be on the horizon with a future updated model. I have a Pulsar that is 50hz and an Iray Zoom that is also 50hz. Can't really tell the difference between those and my Flir that is 60hz. Definitely noticed a difference when jumping from 30hz to 50/60hz.

I am pleased to hear that you didn't notice the RS75 was 30hz. I'm only going off the one 30hz thermal I had some time ago - the slight lag was noticeable. I think that FLIR/Armasight model was from 2015 or so. Perhaps the refresh rate along with the screen resolution makes for a better experience. The additional videos I've seen so far of the RS75 1280 don't seem to lag as much as I remember with the 30hz. Now I'm curious why that is laugh



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Re: IRay 1280x1024 [Re: Pig_Popper] #8693416 09/22/22 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Pig_Popper


Additional footage, some with animals on the move



Am I crazy, or is this whole video at a wonky frame rate. Super jittery for me on the computer and the phone so can't tell how good/bad the RS75 footage is

Re: IRay 1280x1024 [Re: BigPig] #8693565 09/22/22 11:16 PM
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It does look that way to me also. I went back and looked at Jason's and Hans video and on the moving shots the footage seems jittery there too. Maybe just a pre production thing.

Re: IRay 1280x1024 [Re: BigPig] #8693581 09/22/22 11:41 PM
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Maybe just a recorded file, uploaded to YouTube thing ….

Heck could even be a processor optimized for 50/60 hz sensors used in a 30hz unit , sort of like the days when Blu-ray players would play standard definition SD movies on DVD and people would comment “it ain’t Blu-ray quality”

I will see what I can do to get behind one of these scopes and give you my thoughts on jitter/lag


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Re: IRay 1280x1024 [Re: BigPig] #8693600 09/23/22 12:14 AM
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Obviously they are trying to protect the sensor but the mount seems to work perfectly and if you weren't told there was a spring in there to absorb the recoil I don't believe you'd ever know it;


I am quoting this, not as a response to Jason, but as a reference. This is a concern a buddy of mine mentioned and it makes some sense. So the mount has a spring to help "absorb recoil" which means it is a recoil spring. I haven't had a gun yet that had a recoil spring that didn't need to be replaced after X number of rounds. Of course, you can run guns beyond that point and they will function for a while, maybe a long while, but the various parts end up taking a lot of battering and abuse before the gun fails to operate properly.

So, my question is this. What is the manufacturer's service instructions on the spring? Is there some sort of rounds per caliber rating chart to go by or is there a test one can perform to determine if the spring is still performing up to spec? I would hate to shoot beyond the spring's useful service life and kill my super expensive 1280 sensor in the process.


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