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Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: freerange] #8648090 07/24/22 10:15 PM
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Just use this and compare different loads in the same weight rifle. Is it exact no but does give a good comparison that is easy to use.

https://bisonballistics.com/calculators/recoil


lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true
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Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: freerange] #8648091 07/24/22 10:16 PM
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Judd excellent data. The MPBR is nearly equivalent between all three, within half an inch, but the terminal energy is way different with a big difference in the lower weight bullet but not as much on the other two. That alone should take the 120 out unless that is the only thing the rifle shoots well.

Based on the experiences you have seen with the eldx I don't doubt you don't like it. I can only attest to what I have seen it do, and that has been dropping three animals in their tracks, 2 deer and a bull elk. Shots were from 100, 100, and 300. None of the animals moved, and all shots were in the chest, no spine shots or anything. I have limited experience with the bullet, but it has performed flawlessly and shoots like a laser out of my rifle. There is a reason there are so many options, we all have our favs. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Good stuff you are putting up!

Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: Judd] #8648097 07/24/22 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Judd
Originally Posted by scottfromdallas
Heavier bullet will usually have less powder and less velocity. I don’t think the difference in recoil is much within the same cartridge and pressure but I do notice a difference in recoil shooting 150s vs 180s in my 308 win.


^^^ this and WP data it’s accurate too…heavier bullets kicks more…physics wise, I think it’s Newton’s law (going off memory that’s getting dated on this crap, think it’s his 3rd law about equal reactions) that applies here.



True if using the same powder but going with heavier bullets you will get more velocity and sometimes better accuracy with a slower burning powder with the heavier weights eve when going 14 to 160 in this cartridge one might switch powders and be burning as much as 5gr more powder with less velocity difference than if you stayed with the faster burning powder used with the 140s.

Just another wrinkle that is there. With 140 loads I used Varget but switched to 4350 for the 160s for a little more speed and actually used a heavier charge with the 160s than the faster powder with the 140gr if that makes sense.


lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true
Mainstream news might be fun to watch
Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: kmon11] #8648111 07/24/22 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by kmon11
Originally Posted by Judd
Originally Posted by scottfromdallas
Heavier bullet will usually have less powder and less velocity. I don’t think the difference in recoil is much within the same cartridge and pressure but I do notice a difference in recoil shooting 150s vs 180s in my 308 win.


^^^ this and WP data it’s accurate too…heavier bullets kicks more…physics wise, I think it’s Newton’s law (going off memory that’s getting dated on this crap, think it’s his 3rd law about equal reactions) that applies here.



True if using the same powder but going with heavier bullets you will get more velocity and sometimes better accuracy with a slower burning powder with the heavier weights eve when going 14 to 160 in this cartridge one might switch powders and be burning as much as 5gr more powder with less velocity difference than if you stayed with the faster burning powder used with the 140s.

Just another wrinkle that is there. With 140 loads I used Varget but switched to 4350 for the 160s for a little more speed and actually used a heavier charge with the 160s than the faster powder with the 140gr if that makes sense.



It makes perfect sense to someone who reloads. I wish I could get the accuracy with the 162s and H4350 that I do with Varget. I’m leaving speed on the table because of it.


To not completely blow the doors off the non reloaders, burn rate is similar to btu in fuel. Alcohol vs gasoline for example. Or maybe that’s a bad analogy but I hope it helps.

Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: freerange] #8648119 07/24/22 11:10 PM
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Sorry guys. I’ve been at a baseball game and going to another. I’ll catch up later. Really loving the discussion.


At some point in life its time to quit chasing the pot of gold and just enjoy the rainbow. FR
Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: kmon11] #8648122 07/24/22 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by kmon11
Originally Posted by Judd
Originally Posted by scottfromdallas
Heavier bullet will usually have less powder and less velocity. I don’t think the difference in recoil is much within the same cartridge and pressure but I do notice a difference in recoil shooting 150s vs 180s in my 308 win.


^^^ this and WP data it’s accurate too…heavier bullets kicks more…physics wise, I think it’s Newton’s law (going off memory that’s getting dated on this crap, think it’s his 3rd law about equal reactions) that applies here.



True if using the same powder but going with heavier bullets you will get more velocity and sometimes better accuracy with a slower burning powder with the heavier weights eve when going 14 to 160 in this cartridge one might switch powders and be burning as much as 5gr more powder with less velocity difference than if you stayed with the faster burning powder used with the 140s.

Just another wrinkle that is there. With 140 loads I used Varget but switched to 4350 for the 160s for a little more speed and actually used a heavier charge with the 160s than the faster powder with the 140gr if that makes sense.


Feels like sorcery reloading sometimes.




Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: freerange] #8648142 07/24/22 11:44 PM
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Since we are talking sorcery: What happens to the trajectory if that 120 BT is loaded with Staball in that 22” Ackley 7-08? Say in the neighborhood of 3200 fps-3250 fps with a 250 yard zero? Before someone says that is not possible, advertised max for a 24” standard 7-08 is 3200fps. Staball is the deal for 120 grain Ricky Bobby loads in 7-08.

Last edited by Smokey Bear; 07/24/22 11:45 PM.

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Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: Smokey Bear] #8648160 07/25/22 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Smokey Bear
Since we are talking sorcery: What happens to the trajectory if that 120 BT is loaded with Staball in that 22” Ackley 7-08? Say in the neighborhood of 3200 fps-3250 fps with a 250 yard zero? Before someone says that is not possible, advertised max for a 24” standard 7-08 is 3200fps. Staball is the deal for 120 grain Ricky Bobby loads in 7-08.


That’s the beauty of the handload. It isnt tied to anything other than the rifle and loaders ability to craft magic.

In the above, terminal energy at 300 yards for a 120gr nosler BT bullet is just a tad under 1700. Thats a big improvement over the numbers for factory ammo.

If that is possible, that would give a great option for someone who wants to never dial and just point and shoot.

Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: Texas buckeye] #8648169 07/25/22 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Texas buckeye
Originally Posted by Smokey Bear
Since we are talking sorcery: What happens to the trajectory if that 120 BT is loaded with Staball in that 22” Ackley 7-08? Say in the neighborhood of 3200 fps-3250 fps with a 250 yard zero? Before someone says that is not possible, advertised max for a 24” standard 7-08 is 3200fps. Staball is the deal for 120 grain Ricky Bobby loads in 7-08.


That’s the beauty of the handload. It isnt tied to anything other than the rifle and loaders ability to craft magic.

In the above, terminal energy at 300 yards for a 120gr nosler BT bullet is just a tad under 1700. Thats a big improvement over the numbers for factory ammo.

If that is possible, that would give a great option for someone who wants to never dial and just point and shoot.


And why a posted it as a true point and shoot to 300 combo when you need to do the deed in a hurry.


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Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: Smokey Bear] #8648194 07/25/22 01:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Smokey Bear
Since we are talking sorcery: What happens to the trajectory if that 120 BT is loaded with Staball in that 22” Ackley 7-08? Say in the neighborhood of 3200 fps-3250 fps with a 250 yard zero? Before someone says that is not possible, advertised max for a 24” standard 7-08 is 3200fps. Staball is the deal for 120 grain Ricky Bobby loads in 7-08.


Big Game is a speed demon as well, with a magnum primer.

Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: Smokey Bear] #8648281 07/25/22 02:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Smokey Bear
Originally Posted by Texas buckeye
Originally Posted by Smokey Bear
Since we are talking sorcery: What happens to the trajectory if that 120 BT is loaded with Staball in that 22” Ackley 7-08? Say in the neighborhood of 3200 fps-3250 fps with a 250 yard zero? Before someone says that is not possible, advertised max for a 24” standard 7-08 is 3200fps. Staball is the deal for 120 grain Ricky Bobby loads in 7-08.


That’s the beauty of the handload. It isnt tied to anything other than the rifle and loaders ability to craft magic.

In the above, terminal energy at 300 yards for a 120gr nosler BT bullet is just a tad under 1700. Thats a big improvement over the numbers for factory ammo.

If that is possible, that would give a great option for someone who wants to never dial and just point and shoot.


And why a posted it as a true point and shoot to 300 combo when you need to do the deed in a hurry.


[Linked Image]

A laser that punches way above its weight class because it’s so tough. I’m 100% with you on this.


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Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: kmon11] #8648282 07/25/22 02:57 AM
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Originally Posted by kmon11
Originally Posted by Judd
Originally Posted by scottfromdallas
Heavier bullet will usually have less powder and less velocity. I don’t think the difference in recoil is much within the same cartridge and pressure but I do notice a difference in recoil shooting 150s vs 180s in my 308 win.


^^^ this and WP data it’s accurate too…heavier bullets kicks more…physics wise, I think it’s Newton’s law (going off memory that’s getting dated on this crap, think it’s his 3rd law about equal reactions) that applies here.



True if using the same powder but going with heavier bullets you will get more velocity and sometimes better accuracy with a slower burning powder with the heavier weights eve when going 14 to 160 in this cartridge one might switch powders and be burning as much as 5gr more powder with less velocity difference than if you stayed with the faster burning powder used with the 140s.

Just another wrinkle that is there. With 140 loads I used Varget but switched to 4350 for the 160s for a little more speed and actually used a heavier charge with the 160s than the faster powder with the 140gr if that makes sense.


100% correct! Also, thanks for the recoil link, never seen that before.


Originally Posted by Phil Robertson
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: Judd] #8648289 07/25/22 03:06 AM
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My numbers are incorrect and fixed here, I was looking at the wrong column.

Originally Posted by Judd
That list wasn’t ordered in preference, just ordered more based upon what others had said that I agreed with and then some out of the box type thoughts. Penetration and exit come hand in hand and I do equate them the same…if it’s a penetrating bullet in near all instances (those end to end being the times they might not), it’ll exit. That list, fit that bill to the T.

Buckeye is right, there are differences in the two but they both will retain weight and penetrate. I look at the Accubond as the new technology bullet that should send the partition off into the sunset and 140 is the lightest 7mm they offer in the partition.

Buckeye mentioned eld…I’m not a fan, I much preferred the amax performance over the eld’s. I’ve had a 162x pencil, have seen one another after the animal was chased and dispatched 30-06 or 270, don’t recall…then another buddy had similar experience on an elk, 7wsm. You’ll never see me recommend that line of bullet. I know many never experience it and I know JG loves Hornady, I’m just not a fan.

It’s all about data on the MPBR…I’ve got some data, look:

Here is a ballistic tip 140 at 2690fps:
[Linked Image]

MPBR = 7.8” for 300y
17.1” for 400y

Here’s a 120 ballistic tip at 2900:
[Linked Image]

MPBR = 7” for 300y
15.8” for 400y

Here’s a 162 eldx at 2470fps (this is my fire forming load, plenty good enough to kill deer):
[Linked Image]

MPBR = 9” for 300y
19.4” for 400y

Moral of the story, speed buys you distance and forgiveness in a MPBR…hence why I showed this. That’s all real work data from my 16” Encore, suppressed. Almost all of them could’ve been pushed harder but they were accurate right here.

Also FR…in this context mono just means it’s solid one type of metal…very little to no lead. I know the Hammer bullets are solid Copper, I assume the Barnes are too. Don’t look at that as negative, it’s likely where we’ll all end up in 20-30 years.


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Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: freerange] #8648314 07/25/22 03:55 AM
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Way past my bedtime. I plan to address a lot of this in the morning. But I glanced at this before bed and want to address.
I do not understand Judd’s charts. I’m not used to looking at this stuff except where they show trajectory at various distances. I guess it’s the same but I NEVER look at 100 yard zero. For some reason, it’s unknown math to me, that evidently you get the MPBR 300 drop from cutting in half where it drops at 300….?? I GUESS that’s cause you double the 100 zero to 200….??
The UNcorrected charts REALLY confused me. The new one at 3200 with a 250 zero I can handle but I don’t ever want to be 2.9 high at any point.
How about a custom chart just for me. Use realistic 708AI velocity with 140s and have the max above line of sight be 2”. I do that and work backwards to my zero. I’m guessing it would be in the 220 range for zero. Whatever it is, it is, cause all I care about is never being over 2” high at any point.
That would be very close to my 3006 165s at 2800.

Last edited by freerange; 07/25/22 04:03 AM.

At some point in life its time to quit chasing the pot of gold and just enjoy the rainbow. FR
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Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: freerange] #8648315 07/25/22 04:00 AM
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Jim Ridings, long dead, did the hand loads for my 3006(and 7x57) about 30 years ago and I still go by it.
It’s golden to me. A chart like this would make sense to my dumb brain.

[Linked Image]


At some point in life its time to quit chasing the pot of gold and just enjoy the rainbow. FR
Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: freerange] #8648319 07/25/22 04:39 AM
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https://shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php is one online one that does a pretty good job of making you a graph, just have to feed it your correct data.


lf the saying "Liar, Liar your pants on fire" were true
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Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: freerange] #8648364 07/25/22 12:19 PM
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Loads of good information here. Can't add anything other than the 7mm-08 is a great caliber in the right hands. Most of the time its the indian and not the arrow! I shoot a 140gr Nosler Ballistic Tip thru mine. High shoulder or neck, and I've yet to see a whitetail take a step. My axis and aoudad were a different story. Axis tipped within 50', but I thought I was going to have to put another round in him. Aoudad I thought was DRT as he hit the ground only to jump back up and needing another round to anchor him.

Anyway, enough rambling. If you are shooting whitetail under 300 yards, get to know your rifle and the majority of the bullets mentioned here will work fine.


Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: Smokey Bear] #8648402 07/25/22 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Smokey Bear
Since we are talking sorcery: What happens to the trajectory if that 120 BT is loaded with Staball in that 22” Ackley 7-08? Say in the neighborhood of 3200 fps-3250 fps with a 250 yard zero? Before someone says that is not possible, advertised max for a 24” standard 7-08 is 3200fps. Staball is the deal for 120 grain Ricky Bobby loads in 7-08.


3250 is where I ran the 120's in mine with varget being the powder of choice.


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Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: Jgraider] #8648436 07/25/22 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Jgraider
Originally Posted by Smokey Bear
Since we are talking sorcery: What happens to the trajectory if that 120 BT is loaded with Staball in that 22” Ackley 7-08? Say in the neighborhood of 3200 fps-3250 fps with a 250 yard zero? Before someone says that is not possible, advertised max for a 24” standard 7-08 is 3200fps. Staball is the deal for 120 grain Ricky Bobby loads in 7-08.


Big Game is a speed demon as well, with a magnum primer.



You can say the same for CFE 223

Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: freerange] #8648477 07/25/22 02:36 PM
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I feel like we are "geeking out" over what bullet(s). Just pick one based on the terminal performance you are looking for. All mentioned should do well for basic hunting. Then the next item is going out and shooting the rifle, getting it dialed in and being proficient with the rifle. I feel shooters worry too much over which bullet will be the most accurate, instead of becoming proficient with their rifle. I also I'm not sure why the AI version was selected over the standard 7-08. It complicates it some with fire forming and working up a second load for the AI since you don't reload.



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Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: kmon11] #8648490 07/25/22 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by kmon11
https://shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php is one online one that does a pretty good job of making you a graph, just have to feed it your correct data.

kmon chart.....A lot of info on here and too much for me to acknowledge many individually. Ill start with kmon chart above. I knew stuff like this was out there but I use very little and glad he posted link to make easy for me. This chart is all I need to figure out my zero and know how to work my MPBR. Of course I need to varify by shooting distances myself. My big question to do this chart is what velocity should I expect out of 708AI and 140 ABs??? I know it can vary but I need something to give me an idea or a range for now. I used 2900 and a 215 yard zero and it gave me 2.1" high at 125 as the highest point and 300 yards it was 6.11" low. That is all VERY similar to my 3006 with 165 NP. I could grab either rifle and "point and shoot quickly" (as Smokey says) without a worry about range until close to 300 yards.
VELOCITY estimate please....????

Judd, I basically understand the basics of a "mono", my "gut" reference was meant as a "gut feeling" that I didnt want to use a mono. Ive never researched or paid attention but I like the premise of partition and the mono concept doesnt "seem" to make sense for my uneducated mind.
Your charts are probably fine if I could plug in my own info. Thanks alot for sharing all that you have.

Energy..... As for all the energy/physics stuff-over my head. And really my gut says I dont need to know. I love energy if all things are equal. Without even looking at energy, Im pretty sure any of these bullet weights(with quality/tough bullet) will be "enough". Some more, some less, but all will be enough. If not, then Ive got the wrong cartridge.

MPBR.....To make it perfectly clear about my desire for MPBR. Smokey coined the phrase "point and shoot quickly" (paraphrased) and that really sums up the difference in dialing and MPBR.,,,, FOR ME, PERSONALLY, I only care about very large Trophy deer and I will not shoot an animal like that at long range. I can guarantee you myself, Smokey, Jgraider and many more have had Trophy deer at ranges 250ish and in when there was NO extra time other than aim and shoot. That doesnt mean to RUSH the shot but it means theres no EXTRA time to do anything. Not AT ALL wanting to get into a "dial vs no dial" discussion and only bringing up to explain why "fast and flat" is important TO ME but may not be understood or appreciated by others


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Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: freerange] #8648506 07/25/22 03:01 PM
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I think I know exactly what you want.

A 25-06 with a Nosler Partition!!


roflmao


Don’t look it up, don’t do it!!

The 7-08 will serve you well.

Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: wp75169] #8648510 07/25/22 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by wp75169
I think I know exactly what you want.

A 25-06 with a Nosler Partition!!


roflmao


Don’t look it up, don’t do it!!

The 7-08 will serve you well.

It looks like all the USEFULL information on this thread has been used up. Now its time to scatter.
I mention that in jest but Ive often noticed that a thread will go like that. In doing some google this morning I ended up on some shooting forum. More than one thread I noticed good info at first and then the weird stuff started coming in and lots of nasty mud throwing on the other forums. I got some useable info but felt I needed to shower afterwards.
Back to topic, cause I do know there is more info to hash out.


At some point in life its time to quit chasing the pot of gold and just enjoy the rainbow. FR
Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: freerange] #8648518 07/25/22 03:16 PM
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freerange, most ballistic calculators will have a function where you can put in several of your come-ups and it will give your velocity. I know the Shooter app does.


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Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: freerange] #8648519 07/25/22 03:18 PM
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My apologies, it was an attempt at humor.

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