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Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: freerange] #8647344 07/23/22 05:51 PM
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Thanks Bobo. I do plan, at some point, on extending my shooting range a bit. In no hurry though. I think Fireman will tell you that with my planned low power scope and no turrets that I wont be playing around at 800.
In the vein of what I had stated about my new normal being different in retirement, I am day dreaming about maybe working on another project rifle that would be more for target shooting and longer distance. We will wait till this project plays out first.


At some point in life its time to quit chasing the pot of gold and just enjoy the rainbow. FR
Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: HWY_MAN] #8647347 07/23/22 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by HWY_MAN
A 140 in the pump and it went just a few yards.
[Linked Image]

Hwyman, great to hear that. Any bigger sample size or any more details about the setup, which bullet, accuracy etc?

Last edited by freerange; 07/23/22 06:02 PM.

At some point in life its time to quit chasing the pot of gold and just enjoy the rainbow. FR
Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: freerange] #8647404 07/23/22 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by freerange
Thanks Bobo. I do plan, at some point, on extending my shooting range a bit. In no hurry though. I think Fireman will tell you that with my planned low power scope and no turrets that I wont be playing around at 800.
In the vein of what I had stated about my new normal being different in retirement, I am day dreaming about maybe working on another project rifle that would be more for target shooting and longer distance. We will wait till this project plays out first.


You would be suprised how far you can get with just a normal capped turret scope. Especially when you know the plate size you are shooting


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Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: freerange] #8647441 07/23/22 09:02 PM
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First of all I think you've made the perfect choice with the 7mm08 cartridge. There aren't many animals that it can't take cleanly and effectively. Given you stated 300 yds max in the OP, I'm gong to hitch hike on Smokey.....the 140 accubond would be my first choice, followed closely by the 120 ballistic tip. I have personally seen the 140 AB whack a big 180" mule deer at a whopping 30 yds from my friend's 7mmSTW......yes, we jumped the buck at very close range and were surprised. The bullet entered the hind quarter, penetrated the full length of the bucks body diagonally, and lodged under the hide on the off shoulder. Probably 36" of penetration, and impact velocity had to be at least 3300fps. It was textbook bullet performance as it retained 60% of it's weight, mushrooming perfectly.

In my 7-08's I like running that 140 at 2800fps, and a 2" high sight in will allow you to MPBR bucks at 300 yds. I set up my McWhorter with a Leupold VX3 4.5-14 B&C reticle. At this velocity, the rifle is dead on at 215 yds, 1st hash is 300 yds, 2nd hash is 400 yds, next small hash is 450, and the spot where the thinner vertical post changes to the bold post is 500 yds. I cannot tell you how many aoudad, deer, and hogs I've killed with this combo, and it works perfectly.

The 120 BT is very, very tough, and very accurate as many know and have stated. It is a game killing machine running 3100 at the muzzle. Lot's of people gripe about finding the bullets in the off side hide, with jacket separated from the core. Not sure why, as it's not a bonded bullet. We have culled many aoudad with this bullet and it works great. If you're gonna crash through shoulders though, go with the AB.

The photo below shows a few samples of 160 AB's from my Tikka 7mag. Those bullets are running 3050 at the muzzle using a good dose of Retumbo. One trip to Namibia I culled 12 animals including oryx, wildebeast, red hartebeest, zebra, and a big kudu bull. I intentionally crashed through shoulders of these animals since the heart is farther forward and a bit lower than normal animals, so that was the basis of shot placements. These are the only 5 bullets that did not exit, with weights shown of bullets recovered. Farthest shot was 150 yds, once again AB bullet performance is exemplary. The 140's I've recovered from aoudad, deer, hogs, antelope, etc all look the same, just like those below.

[Linked Image]

Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: freerange] #8647477 07/23/22 09:51 PM
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""Hwyman, great to hear that. Any bigger sample size or any more details about the setup, which bullet, accuracy etc?""

Factory ammo, Winchester 7-08, 140 grain Power-Point, 2800 fps. She took that bull, about a dozen Whitetails, 1/2 a dozen hogs and a couple of Javalina's with that load.


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Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: Jgraider] #8647519 07/23/22 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Jgraider
First of all I think you've made the perfect choice with the 7mm08 cartridge. There aren't many animals that it can't take cleanly and effectively. Given you stated 300 yds max in the OP, I'm gong to hitch hike on Smokey.....the 140 accubond would be my first choice, followed closely by the 120 ballistic tip. I have personally seen the 140 AB whack a big 180" mule deer at a whopping 30 yds from my friend's 7mmSTW......yes, we jumped the buck at very close range and were surprised. The bullet entered the hind quarter, penetrated the full length of the bucks body diagonally, and lodged under the hide on the off shoulder. Probably 36" of penetration, and impact velocity had to be at least 3300fps. It was textbook bullet performance as it retained 60% of it's weight, mushrooming perfectly.

In my 7-08's I like running that 140 at 2800fps, and a 2" high sight in will allow you to MPBR bucks at 300 yds. I set up my McWhorter with a Leupold VX3 4.5-14 B&C reticle. At this velocity, the rifle is dead on at 215 yds, 1st hash is 300 yds, 2nd hash is 400 yds, next small hash is 450, and the spot where the thinner vertical post changes to the bold post is 500 yds. I cannot tell you how many aoudad, deer, and hogs I've killed with this combo, and it works perfectly.

The 120 BT is very, very tough, and very accurate as many know and have stated. It is a game killing machine running 3100 at the muzzle. Lot's of people gripe about finding the bullets in the off side hide, with jacket separated from the core. Not sure why, as it's not a bonded bullet. We have culled many aoudad with this bullet and it works great. If you're gonna crash through shoulders though, go with the AB.

The photo below shows a few samples of 160 AB's from my Tikka 7mag. Those bullets are running 3050 at the muzzle using a good dose of Retumbo. One trip to Namibia I culled 12 animals including oryx, wildebeast, red hartebeest, zebra, and a big kudu bull. I intentionally crashed through shoulders of these animals since the heart is farther forward and a bit lower than normal animals, so that was the basis of shot placements. These are the only 5 bullets that did not exit, with weights shown of bullets recovered. Farthest shot was 150 yds, once again AB bullet performance is exemplary. The 140's I've recovered from aoudad, deer, hogs, antelope, etc all look the same, just like those below.

[Linked Image]

Jgraider, thanks a lot for the detailed reply. Like Smokey, and others, you are confirming the accubond and 140 as real good for my purpose. You didnt mention partition but i know from other posts that you love it as well. It seems most think that accubond and partition are almost interchangeable. I know you are a big time Trophy hunter but you also know a lot about shooting so your comments carry a lot of weight with me.
I like your example about breaking shoulders cause thats what i plan to do and certainly want to be able to do with confidence. As for your full body penetration example, Im not opposed to shooting one going away as long as the right equipment. This is the type thing that keeps me from serious consideration of the 120BT.
For me, MPBR is the way I go, so I like it when yall give examples about that. You mention 708 but I assume 708AI is just faster so any trajectory talk would just flatten out and be better with the faster AI.
Thanks to you and all for your feedback.


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Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: freerange] #8647734 07/24/22 04:34 AM
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My first 7mm-08ai hated the 140AB for some reason which really surprised me as I typically found great luck with Nosler bullets. It was a laser with the Nosler 120bt and I killed a good number of deer and pigs with it. Only other bullet I hunted much with it was the 162gr amax/eldm and they were equally as deadly. I never caught a bullet from either on a deer as I rarely place a bullet on the shoulder. I know one of my amax was stopped in a follow up on a 300+ lbs boar that was quartering away. It traveled diagonal and broke the off shoulder but didn't exit.


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Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: freerange] #8647753 07/24/22 05:40 AM
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Just personal opinion here but with some good data
7mm probably is the sweetspot between ballistic efficiency and terminal performance.
Our Resident expert on 7mm-08 turned me on to it a few years ago.
Personal opinion but if you intend to go long the 162 ELDX is hard to beat.
I have a co-worker that hunts several times a year in several spots and on a variety of game. His caliber of choice is the 7mm Rem Mag.
He swears by the Sierra Game King Hollow points. They are available in a 140 Gr and a 160 Gr.
I have shot both weights and can attest to the accuracy. I have seen the results of my friends hunts, as he tells me DRT...Right There


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Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: freerange] #8647946 07/24/22 06:27 PM
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Once again, I appreciate all the feedback. Lots of good comments about the bullet choice. I would like to hear a little more about your choice of twist rate. Remember its 708AI and not 708 so its going a little faster, in case that matters. If bullet weight helps determine twist then im not positive yet but it sounds like 140 or maybe 150.
Keep any comments coming on the bullet but hopefully some comments on twist as well.
edit... I meant to comment about the weight of the rifle. I dont know that it matters for this specific discussion, but I talked earlier about most other facets of the rifle so I want to mention it. Also, recoil has been discussed and is an important consideration, so weight factors in there. Ive been told that particular model should weigh 6.5 #s, without scope, ammo or sling.

Last edited by freerange; 07/24/22 06:37 PM.

At some point in life its time to quit chasing the pot of gold and just enjoy the rainbow. FR
Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: freerange] #8647956 07/24/22 06:34 PM
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My meager understanding of speed vs twist is the faster you go the more heavy the bullet can be, for a given twist rate.

Given the increased speed with the AI, and with my personal preference for heavier bullets (they can do more damage if accurate) i would push the bullet to as big as your rifle can stabilize and give good accuracy. That is where firemanJG aka JG (not sure when the change takes place) can really make magic happen as he can test multiple bullet sizes for you, it just costs money. Plus, the more he shoots the better formed your brass will be which will increase speed some too.

Edit: three things kill animals. Terminal performance of bullet, energy transferred to animal from bullet, and where the bullet channel happens in the animal. The third you can take care of if the rifle/bullet are tuned. The first is simply based on the type bullet, and the second is based on the whole package of round and rifle. Going with a bigger bullet, if accurate, can affect all three. But dont sacrifice accuracy for weight. Much better to perform on third than second.

Last edited by Texas buckeye; 07/24/22 06:43 PM.
Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: HoneyBeez] #8647961 07/24/22 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by 2Beez
Originally Posted by Judd
popcorn

I’ll come back later and give you an opinion, this one will be good and I guarantee JG and I will not agree rofl


What was it that I killed my 8 with? That bullet was fatal but did not pass through but you remember the baseball sized lump as well as I do. Probably my greatest moment in a deer stand to be honest. I think it was a 140gr


140 ballistic tip, killing beasts but not what FR wants. That was a fun experience!

FR - A lot of good and knowledgeable info thus far, guys respect you enough the info is good and you don’t get much noise…it’s impressive, nice job guys! I’m almost cheating at this point because each of your replies you’ve given a little additional nuggets of need/want. Facts as gathered:

  • 300y and in
  • MPBR - no dialing no reticle holds
  • Prefers penetration and exits
  • Partition experience and likes


The first two items scream speed and the second two screams bonded or mono. So again, you really are pretty good at giving enough info to almost answer your own questions, this is awesome by the way. In no order I think this could be your list:


  • 140 Accubonds - almost unobtainable, I personally would buy 1k right now if I could find them…been that way over a year.
  • 120 Ballistic Tip - I’ve got and use these, awesome bullet. I run them at 2960 in a 16” 7-08ai encore…they are impressive.
  • 120/140 TTSX or TSX - you’re stepping into the monos with this one but they will do what you require
  • 113 Hammer Shock Hammer - no personal experience but the fanboys over at LRH have about convinced me to try them if for no other reason but to see for myself
  • 120 Hammer Hunter


I’m a huge fan of the scenars and they will do what you ask but they don’t make anything less than a 150, you need lighter due to the heavy bullets will stunt your MPBR…I like the 140 class in the 7-08 but after seeing and using the 120’s with being 300y and in…fast and tough is your recipe. Lighter gets you your speed and the monos penetrate like no other that’s why they were 6 of the 8 bullets on my list. Another positive to the Hammers…they’ve been available through this entire mess and just a small USA business.


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Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: freerange] #8647973 07/24/22 06:53 PM
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Judd, good response! This is where my limited knowledge of different calibers hurts me. I do not know enough to know anything of much use. I just know what has worked in my guns, which are not 7-08 +\- Ackley.

I will add only add that FR is having handloads made and JG may be able to tweak some extra speed out of bullets that arent normally seen, esp from factory. I know you know that, so just trying to impress on my opinion of “heaviest possible accurate bullet” would be my answer, but that tells nothing of specifics….as you did.

Is it possible to push a 164gr eldx out of a 22inch 7-08AI at near 2900 fps or so? If accurate that would be my choice. Yes they dont leave much if any of an exit, but they discharge near all that energy in the animal. To ke, pushing the bullet thru the animal for a solid exit means leaving energy wasted.

Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: freerange] #8647978 07/24/22 07:02 PM
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Judd, thanks about a million for your comments. I read between the lines and extracted a couple complements in there(I think.)
And yes, there hasnt been a lot of bickering so far and likely/hopefully you are correct on why. You seem smart, I may like you.
You have obviously been paying attention to detail(Im known for that) in my posts so I appreciate your time in reading as well as responding.

Your recap of my wants/needs are very close.
Based on feedback Im getting, I may be able to push the 300 to 350 but I doubt thats enough to make any difference in this discussion.
I dont think I ever mentioned "exit" but its understandable to think that since I want penetration. I just dont want fragmentation and weight loss, which I guess the result would be the inverse of penetration/exit.
Correct on comfort level on MPBR and Partition.

On the AB, is it safe to assume most people consider they are interchangeable with partitions on performance and close enough on accuracy? Or not?
When you put AB at the top of your list(understood thats FOR ME), would you put partition at the same level?
As for the rest of your list, Im afraid Im not familar enough with, and the word "mono" doesnt sit well in my gut.
Questions for Judd, but as usual, all comments appreciated.


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Keep your gratitude higher than your expectations. RWH
Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: freerange] #8647993 07/24/22 07:15 PM
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FR, accubond is designed to mushroom but stay together. Partition is designed to partially split apart, front part breaks/fragments and causes damage while the rear is designed to continue to penetrate.

Similar but different. The eldx bullet i keep mentioning is more a partition bullet at high speeds (low range), and comes in three sizes for 7mm, 150, 162, and 175 gr. Hornady makes a bunch of other 7mm bullets too,

Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: freerange] #8648000 07/24/22 07:21 PM
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The heavier the bullet you use the more recoil you will experience.

Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: wp75169] #8648005 07/24/22 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by wp75169
The heavier the bullet you use the more recoil you will experience.


Explain this to me. If the powder is the same in the cartridge, with a heavier bullet vs a lighter bullet, how would there be more felt recoil?

I understand going from one gun to the next and recoil concerns, but for the same rifle using the same brass with the same powder you feel heavier recoil with a heavier bullet? I dont buy it.

Now with a heavier powder charge to push that heavier bullet i could get what you are saying, but the difference between pushing a 140 vs 160 gr bullet would be minimal at best in the same rifle.

Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: freerange] #8648015 07/24/22 07:46 PM
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Heavier bullet will usually have less powder and less velocity. I don’t think the difference in recoil is much within the same cartridge and pressure but I do notice a difference in recoil shooting 150s vs 180s in my 308 win.




Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: Texas buckeye] #8648017 07/24/22 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Texas buckeye
Originally Posted by wp75169
The heavier the bullet you use the more recoil you will experience.


Explain this to me. If the powder is the same in the cartridge, with a heavier bullet vs a lighter bullet, how would there be more felt recoil?

I understand going from one gun to the next and recoil concerns, but for the same rifle using the same brass with the same powder you feel heavier recoil with a heavier bullet? I dont buy it.

Now with a heavier powder charge to push that heavier bullet i could get what you are saying, but the difference between pushing a 140 vs 160 gr bullet would be minimal at best in the same rifle.



All other things being equal, pushing more weight out of the end of the barrel will result in more recoil. It's physics. The degree of the increase is, of course, based on the weight difference, but it's undeniable.


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Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: psycho0819] #8648023 07/24/22 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by psycho0819
Originally Posted by Texas buckeye
Originally Posted by wp75169
The heavier the bullet you use the more recoil you will experience.


Explain this to me. If the powder is the same in the cartridge, with a heavier bullet vs a lighter bullet, how would there be more felt recoil?

I understand going from one gun to the next and recoil concerns, but for the same rifle using the same brass with the same powder you feel heavier recoil with a heavier bullet? I dont buy it.

Now with a heavier powder charge to push that heavier bullet i could get what you are saying, but the difference between pushing a 140 vs 160 gr bullet would be minimal at best in the same rifle.



All other things being equal, pushing more weight out of the end of the barrel will result in more recoil. It's physics. The degree of the increase is, of course, based on the weight difference, but it's undeniable.


Agree if you are using a different charge of powder in the cartridge, but if the powder charge is the same, wouldn’t the force be essentially the same between the smaller bullet pushed faster than the heavier bullet pushed slower?

Energy= mv2

So shouldn’t a faster lighter bullet actually have more felt recoil than a slower heavier bullet? Am i seeing this wrong?


Ok, after doing some quick math on factory loads in 7-08, 140 gr at 2800fps equals 101M components of energy while the 175 at 2595 fps equals 109M components of energy. Converted to joules the difference is about 3300J vs 3550J.
But my question is do these factory loads have different powder charges?

My premise that the speed makes up for the size difference is off. The speed factor is just not there and the weight does make that much difference. Thanks for clearing that up guys.

Last edited by Texas buckeye; 07/24/22 08:19 PM.
Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: freerange] #8648029 07/24/22 08:18 PM
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What is energy =mv2? Muzzle velocity x 2? I don’t think that’s the case.


The heavier bullet has more resistance to motion than the lighter one. At times significantly more if it has more bearing surface. Causing the expansion of gas to push back harder on the rear of the case. Recoil

Now I just made all that up but I think it’s correct. I’ve never saw it in writing like that though.

Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: freerange] #8648037 07/24/22 08:28 PM
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Energy equal mass times velocity squared.

The iphone doesn’t have a good way to show that.

140 gr at 2800 fps (850 m/s) would be either 140 x 2800 x 2800 or (850 x 850) typically metric is used in physics.

175 gr at 2550 fps (790 m/s)

The energy is more with the heavier bullet. But is the powder charge different to get there. Thats where the loaders will know a lot more than I.

Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: freerange] #8648038 07/24/22 08:31 PM
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The powder charge will be significantly less with the heavier bullet. In reloading the powder charge is determined by pressure. The heavier the bullet the more the pressure builds per given explosion. That is not my ramblings.

Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: wp75169] #8648041 07/24/22 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by wp75169
The powder charge will be significantly less with the heavier bullet. In reloading the powder charge is determined by pressure. The heavier the bullet the more the pressure builds per given explosion. That is not my ramblings.


And see, thats my ignorance of the loading process. I assumed similar charge for a given cartridge, regardless. So less charge in a heavier bullet for the same caliber ammo. Got it. Learned several things today. Thanks guys.

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Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: freerange] #8648073 07/24/22 09:53 PM
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That list wasn’t ordered in preference, just ordered more based upon what others had said that I agreed with and then some out of the box type thoughts. Penetration and exit come hand in hand and I do equate them the same…if it’s a penetrating bullet in near all instances (those end to end being the times they might not), it’ll exit. That list, fit that bill to the T.

Buckeye is right, there are differences in the two but they both will retain weight and penetrate. I look at the Accubond as the new technology bullet that should send the partition off into the sunset and 140 is the lightest 7mm they offer in the partition.

Buckeye mentioned eld…I’m not a fan, I much preferred the amax performance over the eld’s. I’ve had a 162x pencil, have seen one another after the animal was chased and dispatched 30-06 or 270, don’t recall…then another buddy had similar experience on an elk, 7wsm. You’ll never see me recommend that line of bullet. I know many never experience it and I know JG loves Hornady, I’m just not a fan.

It’s all about data on the MPBR…I’ve got some data, look:

Here is a ballistic tip 140 at 2690fps:
[Linked Image]

MPBR = 2.5” for 300y
4” for 400y

Here’s a 120 ballistic tip at 2900:
[Linked Image]

MPBR = 2.25” for 300y
3.75” for 400y

Here’s a 162 eldx at 2470fps (this is my fire forming load, plenty good enough to kill deer):
[Linked Image]

MPBR = 2.75” for 300y
4.75” for 400y

Moral of the story, speed buys you distance and forgiveness in a MPBR…hence why I showed this. That’s all real work data from my 16” Encore, suppressed. Almost all of them could’ve been pushed harder but they were accurate right here.

Also FR…in this context mono just means it’s solid one type of metal…very little to no lead. I know the Hammer bullets are solid Copper, I assume the Barnes are too. Don’t look at that as negative, it’s likely where we’ll all end up in 20-30 years.


Originally Posted by Phil Robertson
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
Re: The BULLET!!!!? 708AI [Re: scottfromdallas] #8648075 07/24/22 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by scottfromdallas
Heavier bullet will usually have less powder and less velocity. I don’t think the difference in recoil is much within the same cartridge and pressure but I do notice a difference in recoil shooting 150s vs 180s in my 308 win.


^^^ this and WP data it’s accurate too…heavier bullets kicks more…physics wise, I think it’s Newton’s law (going off memory that’s getting dated on this crap, think it’s his 3rd law about equal reactions) that applies here.


Originally Posted by Phil Robertson
Don't let your ears hear what your eyes didn't see, and don't let your mouth say what your heart doesn't feel
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