texashuntingforum.com logo
Main Menu
Advertisement
Affiliates
Advertisement
Newest Members
Felipe, jamesinNC, Gary W, TTmike, DanCMark
69894 Registered Users
Top Posters(All Time)
dogcatcher 110,377
bill oxner 91,415
SnakeWrangler 63,318
stxranchman 59,870
Gravytrain 46,314
RKHarm24 44,585
rifleman 44,461
BMD 41,232
Forum Statistics
Forums46
Topics604,410
Posts11,256,681
Members84,894
Most Online19,184
Feb 5th, 2020
Print Thread
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
Rifle Balance and Pointability #8626318 06/23/22 02:18 AM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,300
T
Texas Dan Offline OP
THF Celebrity
OP Offline
THF Celebrity
T
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,300
Why some rifles just seem to handle and shoulder better than others, and how the weight and position of a scope comes into play.



"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
Re: Rifle Balance and Pointability [Re: Texas Dan] #8626440 06/23/22 11:27 AM
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 313
D
Dzhitshard Offline
Bird Dog
Offline
Bird Dog
D
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 313
Absolute unwarranted mental masturbation.

You can’t buy proficiency.

Just pick up a gun and really learn to use it.

Re: Rifle Balance and Pointability [Re: Dzhitshard] #8626459 06/23/22 12:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,411
S
scottfromdallas Offline
Extreme Tracker
Offline
Extreme Tracker
S
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,411
Originally Posted by Dzhitshard
Absolute unwarranted mental masturbation.

You can’t buy proficiency.

Just pick up a gun and really learn to use it.



LMAO. That is my philosophy. I never understood people needing a “perfect fit”. I’m more of a generalist. I want to be able to pick up almost anything and use it proficiently.





Re: Rifle Balance and Pointability [Re: Texas Dan] #8626477 06/23/22 12:39 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 4,560
J
jeepercreeper Offline
Extreme Tracker
Offline
Extreme Tracker
J
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 4,560
Does the military care if a weapon doesnt fit you or balance properly?

Re: Rifle Balance and Pointability [Re: Texas Dan] #8626483 06/23/22 12:42 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,300
T
Texas Dan Offline OP
THF Celebrity
OP Offline
THF Celebrity
T
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,300
Bird and duck hunters, as well as the ones who can get off the quickest shots with a rifle might choose to differ.

In so many things, you find those who are able to outperform others in something that requires physical and mental abilities. And it's only when you check further into the tools they use that you find they're somehow different than what you and others have in their hands. Others might only say they have an unforeseen edge that you don't.

None of the rifles that I own is any more balanced that my Winchester Model 94, a model that's a true legend when it comes to taking whitetails. I have to believe balance came into play when John Browning designed it almost 130 years ago.

Last edited by Texas Dan; 06/23/22 12:51 PM.

"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
Re: Rifle Balance and Pointability [Re: Texas Dan] #8626511 06/23/22 01:28 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 54,252
BOBO the Clown Offline
kind of a big deal
Offline
kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 54,252
Originally Posted by Texas Dan
Bird and duck hunters, as well as the ones who can get off the quickest shots with a rifle might choose to differ.

In so many things, you find those who are able to outperform others in something that requires physical and mental abilities. And it's only when you check further into the tools they use that you find they're somehow different than what you and others have in their hands. Others might only say they have an unforeseen edge that you don't.

None of the rifles that I own is any more balanced that my Winchester Model 94, a model that's a true legend when it comes to taking whitetails. I have to believe balance came into play when John Browning designed it almost 130 years ago.


That’s predominantly only with OU’s, because of the bottom Barrel. You are trying to eliminate “cant” through fitting.

End of the day it’s about repeatability, fitting doesn’t mean near as much with a scoped rifle because the sight picture tends to be your “fitting”, you tend to adjust the sight picture to your comfort. (Meaning you move the scope back and forth until you find you comfort and most repeatable position. When using someone else rifle you tend to adjust your self to sight picture. That’s the average. Competition shooters are a whole different breed,



Donate to TX Youth hunting program.... better to donate then to waste it in taxes

https://secure.qgiv.com/for/gtgoh/mobile
Re: Rifle Balance and Pointability [Re: BOBO the Clown] #8626523 06/23/22 01:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 36,758
F
FiremanJG Offline
THF Celebrity
Offline
THF Celebrity
F
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 36,758
Scope front to back for proper eye relief, cheek height appropriate for natural point of aim, and that's about it for the "fitment".

What is far more important is lots and lots of time behind the rifle.

Some of us can shoulder other people's rifles and shoot them better than they can. Lots more reps in the books.


[Linked Image]
800 Yard Steel Range
Precision Rifle Instruction
Memberships and Classes Available
Re: Rifle Balance and Pointability [Re: Texas Dan] #8626601 06/23/22 03:14 PM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 3,459
S
Smokey Bear Offline
Veteran Tracker
Offline
Veteran Tracker
S
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 3,459
I don’t know Bobo. While I agree with what you are saying while shooting off a rest. Offhand shooting at a high level seems to be a dying art. A seamless mount with a well fitting long gun and point ability are an integral part of doing that at a high level. A lot more is possible with that style of shooting than many are aware of. To get really good at it rifles set up to mount and point intuitively make it markedly easier than using rifled set up for how we shoot off rests.


Smokey Bear---Lone Star State.
Re: Rifle Balance and Pointability [Re: jeepercreeper] #8626607 06/23/22 03:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 2,315
B
Bryan C. Heimann Offline
Veteran Tracker
Offline
Veteran Tracker
B
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 2,315
Originally Posted by jeepercreeper
Does the military care if a weapon doesnt fit you or balance properly?


Yes. That’s why the M4 has an adjustable buttstock and a 14” barrel. Handles better and fits better.

Unfortunately you have to put a lazer and a light on the front end that makes it very front heavy.

The new SIG rifle with the all-in-one Vortex optic is going to handle and balance a whole lot better. A lot of critics out there like to point out how heavy it is, they do not take all the crap you have to put on the fore end of the M4 into account. And the PEQ15 and tac light were absolutely essential because we do everything in the dark.

Last edited by Bryan C. Heimann; 06/23/22 03:22 PM.

Regular Guy/regularguy11B/ laid over
Re: Rifle Balance and Pointability [Re: Texas Dan] #8626611 06/23/22 03:27 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,440
T
Texan Til I Die Offline
Veteran Tracker
Offline
Veteran Tracker
T
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,440
I guess I'm a decent enough rifle shot off the bench or really from any type of rest as long as the target isn't moving. Give me a moving target and I might as well be throwing rocks at it. Is it because my rifle lacks balance or doesn't fit or is it because I never practice shooting a rifle at a moving target? I think it's lack of practice.

And all you guys that shoot the running hogs at night, great job! I don't think I could do it.


Silver spurs and gold tequila
keep me hanging on.
Pretty girls and old cantinas
give me shelter from the storm.
Re: Rifle Balance and Pointability [Re: Smokey Bear] #8626616 06/23/22 03:33 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,300
T
Texas Dan Offline OP
THF Celebrity
OP Offline
THF Celebrity
T
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,300
Originally Posted by Smokey Bear
I don’t know Bobo. While I agree with what you are saying while shooting off a rest. Offhand shooting at a high level seems to be a dying art. A seamless mount with a well fitting long gun and point ability are an integral part of doing that at a high level. A lot more is possible with that style of shooting than many are aware of. To get really good at it rifles set up to mount and point intuitively make it markedly easier than using rifled set up for how we shoot off rests.


Yes, this might be a good time call to call a time out and note the discussion as one that targets quick, free-hand shots where the shooter is trying to get off an accurate shot as quickly as possible. It reminds me of those men I knew as a kid who could knock down a deer as it crossed a logging road while being driven by hounds. However, I digress.

It would appear such quick shots can be broken down into three phases, each which could probably muster their own discussion. Could even be more, or each could be broken down more for all I know.

1. Shouldering the firearm

2. Aim point acquisition

3. Trigger pull

4. Follow through

With anything where time is of the essence, any time that can be shortened during Phase 1 is time that can added later in order to make a more accurate shot. Or to look at it another way, any time added in Phase 1 is likely to lengthen the entire timeline.

Last edited by Texas Dan; 06/23/22 03:35 PM.

"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
Re: Rifle Balance and Pointability [Re: Texas Dan] #8626618 06/23/22 03:38 PM
Joined: Aug 2021
Posts: 112
6
65x55 Offline
Woodsman
Offline
Woodsman
6
Joined: Aug 2021
Posts: 112
A lot of the old bolt action military rifles of yesteryear balanced beautifully, especially for how long they were. My M1895 Steyr Mannlicher feels light as a feather and very pointable despite being 50 inches long and weighing 8 pounds. The Kar98k is probably about perfect as far as balance and everything else.

Re: Rifle Balance and Pointability [Re: Texas Dan] #8626654 06/23/22 04:29 PM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 3,459
S
Smokey Bear Offline
Veteran Tracker
Offline
Veteran Tracker
S
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 3,459
I was first taught as a kid with a .22. I taught the same to my son when he was a kid. The last buck deer I watched him shoot was neck shot free hand at a little over 200 yards while chasing a doe in a clear cut in this manner. To do it well is a full body exercise.
1. The eyes pick up the target and lock on while the body moves with the target.
2. Through a lot of practice the mount is refined to the point that the rifle is mounted to where the eyes already are. The body and eyes stay with the target as the rifle is inserted. It happens quick and comes up moving and right on target. The trigger is already pre loaded and the shot is sent the instant the rifle comes on target. Adjustment is not needed to make the shot if done correctly.

This style of shooting appears to me to be a dying art. Many hunters today lack the skill to shoot well without a rest. Few are willing to put in the time and practice required to master that style of shooting these days. The days of youngsters growing up outside shooting cheap .22 ammo by themselves all summer are gone. Today most are inside with their noses in their phones all day and never develop the ability to take advantage of the full benefit of a perfectly fit rifle that points intuitively.


Smokey Bear---Lone Star State.
Re: Rifle Balance and Pointability [Re: Smokey Bear] #8626699 06/23/22 05:27 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 54,252
BOBO the Clown Offline
kind of a big deal
Offline
kind of a big deal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 54,252
Originally Posted by Smokey Bear
I don’t know Bobo. While I agree with what you are saying while shooting off a rest. Offhand shooting at a high level seems to be a dying art. A seamless mount with a well fitting long gun and point ability are an integral part of doing that at a high level. A lot more is possible with that style of shooting than many are aware of. To get really good at it rifles set up to mount and point intuitively make it markedly easier than using rifled set up for how we shoot off rests.


He brought Bird/duck hunters into a rifle thread, and didn’t understand his own analogy. You can’t compare the way for fitting OU shotgun to a rifle. Reasoning is different.

I completely disagree with you, shooting at a high level is at an all time high, with standards of accuracy being exceeded daily. Practice practice practice. We can break down the design of biathlon rifles and then debate why those designs are not carried over to the general shooting world if you want. As I shot biathlon for a brief period in Colorado

Point I’m making is the OP is discussing a topic that he has no actual impactful knowledge in, especially since in previous statements He condemned any kind of rest, tripod, bipod etc


A free hand shot over 200 yards in MY world is reckless(again only in my world) , it’s not because it’s not doable(although you are purposely choosing to introduce a very high margin of error, regardless of the shooter) its because IF YOU HAVE to take that shot at that distance you are solely focused on a target in a fleeting moment and forget what’s behind it etc, you are whining it. That’s my opinion, I personally would not be happy if my kid took a freehand shot at a rutting buck at that distance. Anyone else I have no judgment for.

If we follow the OP’s advice I’d be building a rifle for a one off scenario of jump shooting mule deer, elk, pronghorn, or I guess ducks with a rifle as he interjected … we would be weighting barrels and stocks, twisting stocks, changing combos etc, while not ACTIVELY seeking any kind of accuracy improvement opportunity to make a more accurate and humane shot

Some can go around practicing biathlon type scenarios, but I will teach the process of eliminating margin of error as much as possible instead of inducing.



Donate to TX Youth hunting program.... better to donate then to waste it in taxes

https://secure.qgiv.com/for/gtgoh/mobile
Re: Rifle Balance and Pointability [Re: Smokey Bear] #8626735 06/23/22 06:22 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,300
T
Texas Dan Offline OP
THF Celebrity
OP Offline
THF Celebrity
T
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,300
Originally Posted by Smokey Bear
1. The eyes pick up the target and lock on while the body moves with the target. 2. Through a lot of practice the mount is refined to the point that the rifle is mounted to where the eyes already are. The body and eyes stay with the target as the rifle is inserted. It happens quick and comes up moving and right on target. The trigger is already pre loaded and the shot is sent the instant the rifle comes on target. Adjustment is not needed to make the shot if done correctly.



up


"Some people will never like you because your spirit irritates their demons."
Re: Rifle Balance and Pointability [Re: Texas Dan] #8626876 06/23/22 10:21 PM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 3,459
S
Smokey Bear Offline
Veteran Tracker
Offline
Veteran Tracker
S
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 3,459
Originally Posted by Texas Dan
Originally Posted by Smokey Bear
1. The eyes pick up the target and lock on while the body moves with the target. 2. Through a lot of practice the mount is refined to the point that the rifle is mounted to where the eyes already are. The body and eyes stay with the target as the rifle is inserted. It happens quick and comes up moving and right on target. The trigger is already pre loaded and the shot is sent the instant the rifle comes on target. Adjustment is not needed to make the shot if done correctly.



up


If you have hunted with hungry dog hunters much, you have seen it done Dan. The old dog hunters I grew up around that lived through the depression referred to it as “the starvation aim”.

Last edited by Smokey Bear; 06/23/22 10:28 PM.

Smokey Bear---Lone Star State.
Re: Rifle Balance and Pointability [Re: Texas Dan] #8627080 06/24/22 03:09 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 27,563
B
Buzzsaw Offline
THF Celebrity
Offline
THF Celebrity
B
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 27,563
Well, IMHO RIFLE should balance good, just cuz it should. Many don't such as a PRS/Bench rifle style but they are not shot off=hand very often, thank God.

European running boar guys ALL shoot guns balanced for running shots


SPACE FOR RENT


Re: Rifle Balance and Pointability [Re: Texas Dan] #8627086 06/24/22 03:14 AM
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 313
D
Dzhitshard Offline
Bird Dog
Offline
Bird Dog
D
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 313


Being a Rifleman isn’t a dead art.

I’ve got some strides to make but I’m back to working on it. There are probably more capable riflemen out there right now with unbalanced rigs than there have ever been in history.
20 years of war and society pretty much as a whole not having to worry about where the next meal is coming from allows it more now than ever before.

At night at, under 20yds with a 3.5x base magnification optic
With a 2.5# box optic, a light, a 1# can, laser, & a brass catcher

I did have the trigger break over twice when it was less than optimal but 6 from this group still ended up in the pile. (Opening shot and the last one running on the right were hit low in the neck, missing the spine, and expired within a few yards)

A running head shot, running spine flip and a deliberate lined up attempt to double on the coup de gras should make a pretty strong case for it being a lot more “Indian vs the arrow” though.

Re: Rifle Balance and Pointability [Re: Buzzsaw] #8627219 06/24/22 12:53 PM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,411
S
scottfromdallas Offline
Extreme Tracker
Offline
Extreme Tracker
S
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,411
Originally Posted by Buzzsaw
Well, IMHO RIFLE should balance good, just cuz it should. Many don't such as a PRS/Bench rifle style but they are not shot off=hand very often, thank God.

European running boar guys ALL shoot guns balanced for running shots


I agree but vast majority of factory rifles with sporter profile barrels balance well with 3-9 range medium weight scope. Most don’t set up their rifle that way. They place a giant scope on it , run a suppressor or buy a rifle with a heavy profile barrel.





Re: Rifle Balance and Pointability [Re: Dzhitshard] #8627243 06/24/22 01:15 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,969
P_102 Offline
Veteran Tracker
Offline
Veteran Tracker
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,969
Originally Posted by Dzhitshard


Being a Rifleman isn’t a dead art.

I’ve got some strides to make but I’m back to working on it. There are probably more capable riflemen out there right now with unbalanced rigs than there have ever been in history.
20 years of war and society pretty much as a whole not having to worry about where the next meal is coming from allows it more now than ever before.

At night at, under 20yds with a 3.5x base magnification optic
With a 2.5# box optic, a light, a 1# can, laser, & a brass catcher

I did have the trigger break over twice when it was less than optimal but 6 from this group still ended up in the pile. (Opening shot and the last one running on the right were hit low in the neck, missing the spine, and expired within a few yards)

A running head shot, running spine flip and a deliberate lined up attempt to double on the coup de gras should make a pretty strong case for it being a lot more “Indian vs the arrow” though.




Sorry, Dz, but ‘spray and pray’ isn’t really an example of more Indian than arrow. Kudos on the going away shot though.


Do not trifle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Re: Rifle Balance and Pointability [Re: Texas Dan] #8627264 06/24/22 01:41 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 12,624
6
603Country Offline
THF Celebrity
Offline
THF Celebrity
6
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 12,624
I’ll use a rifle rest of any sort rather than shoot offhand. I do know my limitations on that. I will say that I don’t need much of a rest.

As for rifle pointability and accuracy, stick to one rifle and shoot it a lot. Practice makes perfect.

I used to be a one-gun guy, having a Sako 270, and I was confident in what I could do with it. These days, having an assortment of rifles, I don’t think I’m as good as I once was when I was a one-gun hunter with that 270. Could be that age is the problem though.


Not my monkeys, not my circus...
Re: Rifle Balance and Pointability [Re: Texas Dan] #8627344 06/24/22 03:11 PM
Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 72
B
Big Sam Online Content
Outdoorsman
Online Content
Outdoorsman
B
Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 72
Well.... we in the shooting community are very good Americans and we just love to see how much stuff we can tack on to a rifle. Yeah, I am looking into the mirror also as I used to do it. It actually works pretty well when the gun only has to go from the truck to the shooting bench or the 10 minute walk to the blind. But if the rifle is to be a constant companion in the real world then balance, potability, weight, recoil, stock design and many other smaller things contribute to better shooting. I'll call better shooting about the same thing as comfortable shooting where the head, neck, shoulders and arms flow into the rifle and vice versa.

But I think it's a bit like buying shoes. What is like walking on clouds for one guy only gives blisters to the next guy. With training and practice we can make do with less than ideal fits. And with training and practice the perfect fit is not as important but it still makes a difference as skill levels go up (per the shotgun examples). I have shot many rifles well in my life. But nothing is as easy to shoot well or as comfortable as my Ruger Scout rifle with the Burris 2x7 ( heavy for what it is) forward mounted scope. The cheek weld is perfect though I am not suggesting anyone go buy a scout scope. It is inferior in many ways but that cheek weld is magic. My old Marlin 336 with iron sights was very similar.

Life is too short to have ill fitting rifles.

Re: Rifle Balance and Pointability [Re: 603Country] #8627349 06/24/22 03:15 PM
Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 72
B
Big Sam Online Content
Outdoorsman
Online Content
Outdoorsman
B
Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 72
Originally Posted by 603Country
I’ll use a rifle rest of any sort rather than shoot offhand. I do know my limitations on that. I will say that I don’t need much of a rest.

As for rifle pointability and accuracy, stick to one rifle and shoot it a lot. Practice makes perfect.

I used to be a one-gun guy, having a Sako 270, and I was confident in what I could do with it. These days, having an assortment of rifles, I don’t think I’m as good as I once was when I was a one-gun hunter with that 270. Could be that age is the problem though.



Did you have to bring in AGE ? grin My shooting has been going downhill as I approach 70.

Re: Rifle Balance and Pointability [Re: Big Sam] #8627360 06/24/22 03:26 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 12,624
6
603Country Offline
THF Celebrity
Offline
THF Celebrity
6
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 12,624
Ya know, BigSam, I do think my shooting skills have declined over time. I shoot more now than I used to, so it can’t be lack of practice. Probably not age. More likely is Climate Change. That’s my story…

Worth mention perhaps is that when shooting, I have good days and less good days for accuracy. Some days I just don’t shoot as well. It isn’t too much coffee.


Not my monkeys, not my circus...
Re: Rifle Balance and Pointability [Re: BOBO the Clown] #8627365 06/24/22 03:30 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,582
T
TDK Offline
Extreme Tracker
Offline
Extreme Tracker
T
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,582
Originally Posted by BOBO the Clown
That’s predominantly only with OU’s, because of the bottom Barrel. You are trying to eliminate “cant” through fitting.


Uhm, just no. The job of fitting is to get point of impact and point of aim to match. This involves many factors and many guns aside from just o/u’s and dealing with “cant”.

It’s evident that I’m probably the only one here to have picked up a fitted rifle with only a front bead and point it at a 10x10” target at 200yds and hit it offhand. That’s the beauty of pointability and shoot ability, something drastically overlooked in todays rifle trends mostly concerned with accuracy. Not that that’s bad, we are really discussing two different tools.

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread

© 2004-2022 OUTDOOR SITES NETWORK all rights reserved USA and Worldwide
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3